Talk:Macedonian/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

What's to dispute here?

What the hell is to dispute here? It's just stating facts. You can't somehow not make the adjective not apply to something just because you don't like that something. The meanings have entered standard usage, like the negative implication of "hacker" for example, or the spelling "Hapsburg". Just because it's "wrong" that doesn't make it go away. --Shallot 13:52, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's just Vergina on his mission to delete all references to Macedonia that refer to the Slav country rather than the Greek province. Very tiresome behaviour. -- ChrisO 18:50, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Citizens of rep. of Macedonia are the real ancient people of macedonia.one university research prove that this are links to it:

[1] external link

Antonio_Arnaiz-Villena This is Wikipedia post

[2] This is the hole research in PDF

So now maybe someone will fix the stupid things about the Macedonians that some greeks have posted here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icesarimak (talk • contribs) 08:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC) --Icesarimak (talk) 08:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Why the research did not include BULGARIANS??? Makedwn (talk) 07:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL THIS RESEARCH IS A JOKE...--DIMISM2008 (talk) 08:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy and NPOV

In case that someone wonders why is this disambiguation page is inaccurate and non-NPOV: It doesn't mention the national group of Macedonians. Instead, it speaks only about Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Aromanians, Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, and Macedonian Slavs. The last group is apparently intended to include Macedonians, it is not clear, however, whether it also includes Bulgarians and Serbs living in this area. -- Naive cynic 18:22 26 August

I am sorry, I don't really get your point. Macedonians are called in Wikipedia Macedonian Slavs and in the article Macedonian Slavs, it is explained that the people themselves call themselves Macedonians and are called both Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs. So revert the totally disputed. For the time being VMORO 11:13, August 27, 2005 (UTC)~

Perhaps it's explained there, but it isn't here. How someone looking for information about Macedonians is supposed to find it? -- Naive cynic 14:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Naive cynic, this disambiguation page probably has all the wiki-links available for Macedonians, so that anyone looking information about Macedonians can check the links to understand all the uses of the term Macedonians. The Republic of Macedonia (sic) is mentioned in the Geography section. I'm guessing your argument is about the citizens of that country, so instead of putting the totalydisputed tag I think you should suggest a description for the Macedonian Slavs wiki-link, perhaps something about their citizenship. I don't think you can put a totalydisputed tag here, if you just don't like the term of that wiki-link, see Talk:Macedonian Slavs. MATIA 09:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about the national group. This is a different concept from citizens of RoM, since several other nationalities, such as Albanians, Gypsies, or Serbs, live in RoM, and since many Macedonians live also in neighboring countries. As for the dispute tag, I have put it, of course, to ask for a discussion. I'm not sure why is information about Macedonians being removed from the disambiguation page. While I somewhat understand Greek unhappiness on the existence of this term, it is still does exist, is widely used, and it hasn't been invented by RoM. Could you explain it? -- Naive cynic 20:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Well it's a long ugly story. I could tell you what I think and try to present the pov's of the parties involved but I think it would be better to check the related discussions on the talk pages that this disambig page links to. Try Talk:Macedonian Slavs and then come and discuss at Talk:Macedonia. MATIA 21:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You might want to check the history of this wiki, in its current form it looks like the version by ChrisO, one of the admins who tried in the past to help with this issue, with the addition of the macedonian dynasty and the greek idiom. MATIA 22:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I already have some knowledge of the convoluted history of Macedonia-related names. Probably more that is safe for my strained sanity, at least. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I know what you mean. MATIA

Are your tags related to the 211.29.242.115 guy? MATIA

I don't know him, I fear. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I meant if his changes led you that this article is inacurate. MATIA 08:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

And now we have the 203.23.27.1 guy. I 'm wondering if he shares the opinion of 211.29.242.115 that the Greek part of the region Macedonia needs to be liberated. MATIA 11:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes he expressed his unhistorical pov before. MATIA 11:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Person, place or thing

In grammar school, they told me that a "noun" is a "person, place or thing". Maybe this will help us. Here's a table I'm trying to develop:

Macedonian people(s)	Macedonian lands	Macedonian languages
The group which Greeks call Skopjans (from the capital city of the Republic of Macedonia) or "Macedonian Slavs" (is this a name this group likes to have applied to them? [3]) - see Macedonians (ethnic group)	the region in general: Macedonia (region)	The modern (Slavic) Macedonian language
2.5million Macedonian Greeks	The Greek region of Macedonia: Macedonia (Greece)	The Macedonian idiom of Modern Greek
	Aegean Macedonia (see also ancient Macedon)	The Ancient Macedonian language, see also Macedon
	The Bulgarian region of Macedonia, also known as Pirin Macedonia

^ Macedonian Slavs is NOT the name this group wants to have applied to them. That is a name which Greece wants to put on to these people. They are Macedonians, in this case, Macedonians (ethnic group). Bomac 16:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, I saw your answer: "NOT ... applied to them". I have modified the table above slightly, in response, but with your permission I'll keep the question open for a few more days. Uncle Ed 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

• Aegean Macedonia is a name applied to what you would call Greek Macedonia, and most of the time is associated with teritorial claims. It is not a name of Macedon (in Classic Greece it was called Macedonia plain-vanilla).
• Mac. Slavs is not a name that the Greeks apply or want to force to those people. The Greeks usually calls them Skopjans (from their capital Skopje), and many Greeks don't want any usage of the M* word from our northern neighbours.

Have on mind that many Macedonians don't want to be called "Skopjans", because the people, for example, from Bitola are NOT "Skopjans" (and it isn't very logicall if you call them "Skopjans"), just like the people from Volos are not from Athens (Athinians). Bomac 19:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right Bomac. I've just noted that most people in Greeks doesn't call your people Mac.Sl. or Mac. but they use the term Skopjans.+MATIA ☎ 19:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Starting conversations in many different talk pages might not be a very good idea. Perhaps you should move this table in a new subsection at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conflict#Macedonians.2FMacedonian_Slavs (that's just an idea). +MATIA ☎ 21:42, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Probably you should add the 2.5million Macedonian Greeks in the people column. And the RoM country in the lands. The lands of that modern country is a part of what you describe with the term Macedonia region (but it wasn't always part of the historical Macedonian region - this has been discussed somewhere before). +MATIA ☎ 21:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Most of the time, splitting the talk is indeed a bad idea. I'm conscious of that, and I've read Meatball's ForestFire article. But it's nice and peaceful on this talk page, so I'm just enjoying the chance to get into this issue slowly.

Sometimes a "divide and conquer" strategy works out well with this kind of conflict. I've mediated dozens of these at Wikipedia, over the last 3 or 4 years. (By the way, is "divide and conquer" from ancient Greece or ancient Rome? I forget which. Uncle Ed 04:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it was a Persian tactic ;) So you probably had in mind ancient Greece. I don't disagree with a peacefull place to gather clues but they are already scattered in about 10 talk pages. +MATIA ☎ 11:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

When it's scattered that widely, adding one more talk page won't make it worse. And I'm trying to use this one to being to tie it all back together. Is that okay? Uncle Ed 16:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't mind that. I was unsure if you knew that they are scattered :)

+MATIA ☎ 16:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Proof of Greeks who recognise themselves as Macedonians: www.mpa.gr Miskin 09:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That is not a proof. That is a link to a press agency that got that name quite recently, just in order to help the Greek propaganda over the name "Macedonia". Why that name was forbiten during the time of general Metaxas and you started promoting it in the late 1970s? Macedonian^(talk) 01:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

FYI, Kostas Velidis, started the Macedonia newspaper in 1911. English link about the 90-years celebration http://www.hri.org/news/greek/mpab/2001/01-10-06.mpab.html#02

+MATIA ☎ 00:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That is truth that the newspaper is present for 90 years. But, it did not have "Macedonia" included in its name untill some 20-30 years ago. Macedonian^(talk) 04:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you believe it was renamed at the '70s? Have you read it somewhere? +MATIA ☎ 17:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I do not beleive. I know. People were going in jail just because of mentioning the term "Macedonia" during the dictatorship of general Metaxas. Even after him, until recently.

Probably you would ask me to give you some source. So, I will. The lates one that is comming from a German (sounds quite neutral) expert. I already posted that here on Wikipedia, so please reffer to the following link: | Foss says minorities are Greek big lie. Macedonian^(talk) 04:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I cannot understand what made you think that Metaxas prohibited the term "Macedonia". Check Macedonia newspaper's cover, March 1940 (perhaps you are aware about Metaxas refusal on October 28th of the same year). +MATIA ☎ 16:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sure you are aware that Metaxas hate the Macedonians (ethnic group). Every use o the term was connected with these people, thereore everyone who used this term was having hard represions agiants him, including inprisonning the person. Macedonian^(talk) 14:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Check the date of the newspaper. I assure you that Metaxas didn't imprisoned Vellidis or anyone else, and the Macedonia (newspaper) has nothing to do with your people. +MATIA ☎ 15:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, obviously I was mistaken with that one. But, I think you are aware that 2 facts stay:

1) the Macedonians (ethnic group) suffered a lot under Metaxas.

2) the name Macedonia was not so forced untill the 1980s. Actually, most of the moments of using the name Macedonia before that could and often was identified as just another try to prove the so called Greek property of the whole region.

The same thing was done (and still is) by the Bulgarians and by the Serbs (untill 1945th and during a couple of years at the beggining of the 1990s). Macedonian^(talk) 00:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

This is getting too boring. 1) if they lived in Greece, they suffered the same as anyone else under that dictatorship 2) I gave you an example with that newspaper. I could provide more examples but you won't be convinced, so let's end it here. +MATIA ☎ 10:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I accepted your source as reliable. But, that does not change the fact of existance of strong represions against the Macedonians in Greece. Othervise, how come 1/3 of the Macedonians live outside the region Macedonia? Many of them with origin from Aegean Macedonia. Macedonian^(talk) 01:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians Slavs just like Misirkov repeatingly stated Makedwn (talk) 07:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== What "ethnic Macedonians" are we talking about? ==

"Macedonians (ethnic group) (also referred to as Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians), the Slavic majority ethnic group of the Republic of Macedonia and minority inhabitants of a number of neighboring countries"

These guys don't want to be called Slav Macedonians because, as they say, their country has Albanians, Turks, Gypsies too... Therefore, what "ethnic Macedonians" are we talking about?

What are all the Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, etc who were born and live in the region of Macedonia? Why are the Slavs more Macedonians than the other residents of the region? The word Macedonian should be used only for the real Macedonians like Alexander the Great —Preceding unsigned comment added by DIMISM2008 (talk • contribs) 16:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Disputed extent

The extent of the kingdom of Macedon (considered as a strict territory, not the lands it ruled at different times) is disputed by historians because of the fragmentary evidence. The more sure thing is that Greek Macedonia is pretty much all (if not all) included in ancient Macedon. Ancient Macedon extended beyond that too, but how far north, for example, is disputed. I will detail this stuff in Paionia someday. After Philip's conquest, Paionia became a tributary/semi-independent kingdom with little independent power, but it is debatable whether one can say that that area was in Macedon, though parts of it seem to have become virtually Macedonian. When the Gauls invaded, the Paionians were still around as a separate force, but I'm not sure what independence they had. Macedon also lost parts of Paionia to the Dardani at different times. I have references for this stuff, though I'm writing from memory of past research right now. It is best to avoid saying "see Macedon for the ancient history of Macedonia (region)." Alexander 007 12:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to Philip II Macedon was well enclosed into Aegean Macedonia, check also the maps on the French article. Greek Macedonia is significantly bigger than Classical Macedon of Perdiccas III. Philip II's Macedon included parts of Thessaly, Illyria, Paionia and the Ionian colonies of Chalcidice (such as Stageira). Miskin 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The teritory of Macedon had different borders through the time. If we take the same beggining of Macedon, it would probably take only few brain cells in the brain of the first person who got the idea to unify the tribes that lived there.

According to me, any refference between modern teritories and Macedon can be seen as a POV push. Do not forget... more than 20 centuries passed since then. Why someone keeps ignoring that fact? Macedonian^(talk) 04:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a thought...

Why are the names in the form of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on? Shouldn't it be more like Albanian Macedonian, Bulgarian Macedonian, Greek Macedonian... After all, the places are called Greek Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia; not Macedonian Greece and Macedonian Pirin. Izehar 12:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

All concept of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on is senceless and unsupported. It is a fact that (when talking about demography), no-one of them (except the ethnic Macedonians) identify their national feeling as Macedonian Greek, Macedonian Bulgarian... They all identify simply with: Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian...

I understand if we put a new paragraph "regionality" where we can include artificial names as these that you counted. But, not when talking about demography.

All this unreal naming of "Macedonian something" is made in order to satisfy the Greek nationalist, who think that they have exclusive right over the name "Macedonia". Macedonian^(talk) 04:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It's very funny to talk about greek nationalists who think they have exclusive right over the name Macedonia while you have a tendency to deny that the Greek Macedonia was always called Macedonia, and the inhabitants are called Macedonians (and not Macedonians Greeks as they are labeled here). +MATIA ☎ 16:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)]

But, it was not always called Macedonia. You can not deny that the name Macedonia was even orbiten or years untill the 1980s. The same is conirmed by many relevant sources, including a amous Greman historian, Mr. Foss link of news from Deuche Welle. Macedonian^(talk) 14:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect entries

The ethnic section of this disambiguation page is clogged with entries which have nothing to do with the function of the page to clarify, disambiguate and redirect to relevant pages. Whereas there is some sense in the case of Aromanians and to some extent in the case of M.Bulgarians and M.Greeks to be represented on the page as there are ethnographic, linguistic and cultural distinctions between them and other Bulgarians and Greeks and as they are referred to as "Macedonians" in the respective languages, such sense is TOTALLY absent in the other entries. Even with regard to Albanians - they do not refer to themselves in any context as to "Macedonians" and even talk about the portions of Macedonia which they inhabit as "Iliriada", there is no "Macedonian" ethnographic or linguistic group in the Albanian ethnicity. So, I am making a move to remove the superfluous disambiguations. VMORO 20:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to react here. The cases of some Bulgarian or Greek (talking about ethnicities here) that identify himself/herself as Macedonian are extremely rare. All of the Bulgarians and Greeks identify themselves clearly as that, Bulgarians and Greeks.

What happens with the Macedonians that live in Bulgaria and Greece? How will you distinct them? Macedonian^(talk) 01:44, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There are almost 2 and a half million people (I refer just to those who live in :Greek Macedonia") who self-identify as Macedonians, and wikipedia calls them "Macedonian Greeks". See also: A Controversy over the terms. +MATIA ☎ 16:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, you know that this is not truth. They reffer to themselves as Greeks, Thesaonikians, Kilkisians etc, but extremely rarely as Macedonians. Actually, they only do that as a confirmation of their claims for the name "Macedonians", but it is a fact that the use of this term is completely artificial for those people. I know this because I regularly have contact with Greeks rom that part. Actually, first time I heard this claim here on Wikipedia, no matter I am a personal riend with many people that live in that region. Macedonian^(talk) 14:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Macedonian, Bulgarians and Greeks use the name "Macedonians" as a regional and ethnographic identification, and "Bulgarians" and "Greeks" as a national identifications. "Ethnic Macedonians" in the region use "Macedonians" as a regional identification, that's the way you distinguish between them.

Matia, what you say is not right: if the population of Greek Macedonia uses the name "Macedonians" as a national identification, then they are not Greeks, they are "Macedonians" (say a different type of Macedonians from the Slavic Macedonians) and should not be disambiguated to the Greek page. If the name "Macedonians" is used as a regional and ethnographic marker, which is my opinion, then the entry should not be in the Demographics section.

To all users: please, see the way disambiguation pages are constructed and stop writing nationalistic claptrap. In this format, the disambiguation page is not a disambiguation page but a free flight of fantasy. VMORO 14:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

VMORO, that is my point. If anyone uses the name Macedonian for himsels, but he is not a member of the Macedonian ethnicity/nationality, then he uses it as regional identification.

Now, explain me why can a Bulgarian use "Macedonian" as regional identification, but when a Macedonian (ethnic group) uses "Bulgarian", it can not be because of regional identification?

Why double standards?

Also, I think that you definitly do not know anything about the Albanians that live in R. of Macedonia, so you can not judge.

The Albanians in R. of Macedonia are often reffered by others and often reffer to themselves as "Macedonian Albanian". It is because of regional identification.

Here are some sources of that: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], UN source... enought?

So, stop removing my edit about this fact. I hate when someone is stubborn, but has no idea of the reality about some people, neighter has sources. I meet those people every single day, I definitly know more than your stubborn head on this issue. Macedonian^(talk) 00:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid your first phrase (the one that ended with "then he uses it as regional identification") and your last paragraph (stuborn people etc) are around the problem. +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask anyone to provide a proof that some Greek or Bulgarian identifies as Macedonian, but a proof that is older than 15 years. This way we will exclude sources that are obviously motivated by the Macedonia-Greece dispute. Macedonian^(talk) 01:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the majority of the books that are in public domain (at least before 70 years) is an example... Or Pavlos Melas, a greek self-identifying as Macedonian... +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Which books?

Pavlos Melas... a greek self-identifying as Macedonian... can you provide me a source which is older than 1991st and that confirms this?

Actually, this oppens another issue. What about the 1000s of Macedonians that presured by everyday represions, decided to leave their Macedonian origin and become Greek? Macedonian^(talk) 01:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

question

What is the ethnicity of an "ethnic Macedonian" (who sometimes self-identify as a "Macedonian Slav")? +MATIA ☎ 19:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstable, the Macedonians never identify themselves as "Macedonian Slavs". I have said many times to you and I will do it once again. I think it is about time you to understand it and accept it.

Simple: when reffering to "Macedonian Slavs", the Macedonians understand "a member of a Slavic tribe who is ancestor of the modern Macedonians". Please understand it, or give a relevant source if you do not agree.

Answer to your question: His ethnicity is "Macedonian". If you read any definition of ethnicity, also the basic human rights, you would understand that the nationality of these people (including me) can only be "Macedonian" and nothing else. Othervise, several international laws and threaties are broken.

Also, it won't be a bad idea for you to search google for the word "Macedonian", excludong "Bulgaria" and "Greece". You would notice that this search gives at least 10 times more results than "Macedonian Slav" does (a search for "Macedonian Slav" that includes the members of the Slavic tribes from some 15 centuries ago).

I also would like to ask you something and I hope on your answer, same as I answered you.

What is the ethnicity of an Arvanite (who sometimes self-identifies as an Albanian)? I know a substantial number of them call them Albanians because a reliable source (Helsinki Report tells me so). Macedonian^(talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You mix ethnicity, nationality and citizenship (three different but related terms). By the way, if you have read the related discussions before voting at Arvanitic language straw-poll, you would knew that Arvanites are ethnicaly Greek... And a hint: most historians use the term Slav in byzantine texts, historians from RoM use the term "Macedonian Slav". But you also deny that politicians from RoM have used sometimes that term, so perhaps there's no point in discussing the same things over and over again. +MATIA ☎ 10:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I do not deny the usage of the term. I only explain what that term is used for here in Macedonia. A Macedonian Slav is a member of a Slavic tribe and and ancestor of the modern Macedonians. If I am lieing, I am ready to accept the consequences and be banned from Wikipedia for life.

I already asked you to make some investigation on this issue. I hope you will do that.

By the way, I clearly know the difference between Ethnicity, Nationality and Citizenship. The thing is that in my case (same as for 1,3 million Macedonians living in Republic of Macedonia) all of them are accompanied with one word only: Macedonian. Macedonian^(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You're wrong +MATIA.

• Ethnicity refers to a group of people with a common language, culture and supposedly ancestry – you are mixing it up with the Greek word εθνικότητα, but that in fact means nationality.
• Nationality refers to the legal relationship between an individual and a state.
• Citizenship refers to the rights and obligations of a national.

A good way to distinguish between these term is the existence of a state. Without a state, nationality and citizenship don't exist. Therefore, majority group of Greek Macedonia, identify ethnically as Greeks (as they have the same language as other Greeks, etc), they also identify nationally as Greeks and hold Greek citizenship, by virtue of their links with the Greek state. Greeks in America, are ethnically Greeks, but are American nationals and citizens - do you see the difference? The only way in which the Greek Macedonians can identify as Macedonians in the regional sense - just as I can say I am from Dublin, I am a Dubliner. I am not saying that I belong to a separate ethnic group called the Dubliners; I belong to the Irish ethnic group. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the Arvanites, if they have their own language, history and culture as the article says, then they are not ethnically Greek; they are ethnically Arvanitic. They may be Greek citizens and nationals, but that is not the same thing. Self-identification with the Greek state stems from the Greek nationality, just as their political rights stem from their citizenship. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Quite simply, the only ethnic group which exists today and claims the name Macedonians as their ethnic identity are the ethnic-Macedonians. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Greece does not recognize national minorities on their teritory. So, how can the one know how those people feel if they are not allowed to express their feelings? Macedonian^(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Who are "Ethnic Macedonians" Then?--DIMISM2008 (talk) 07:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A few examples

• Македонска слава (Macedonian glory) - a soccer team from Blagoevgrad, currently in the A league
• Македонският научен институт (the Macedonian Scientific Institute) - an institute established in the 1920s by refugees from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, functioning today, as well
• Macedonian dialects of the Bulgarian language - part of the Western Bulgarian dialects - can mean only the two main dialects in Pirin Macedonia, as well as all Slavic dialects in Macedonia (mostly in historical perspective)
• Macedonian folklore/ethnographic region - in all sources about Bulgarian music or ethnography, the following division is adopted: северняшки (Northern = Moesian), шопски (Shop = region of Sofia), тракийски (Thracian, includes Thrace + refugees in other parts of the country), родопски (Rhodopian = the Rhodopes), добруджански (Dobrujan, includes Dobruja + refugees in other parts of the country), македонски (Macedonian, includes Pirin Macedonia + refugees in other parts of the country)
• the Pirin Fest and Pirin Folk folklore festivals (held in Sandanski and Blagoevgrad) are called "festivals of the Macedonian song"
• Македонска трибуна (Macedonian Tribune), a newspaper of Macedonian emigrants with Bulgarian self-consciousness in Canada written in the old alphabet

These are examples of people/organisations/entities which use the name Macedonian but are Bulgarian in their identity and self-identification. The name "Macedonian" is used as a regional/ethnographic qualifier and the identity "Macedonians" is a regional/ethnographic denomination, which has nothing to do with the ethnic/national "Macedonian(s)" regarding the population and culture of RoM. Macedonian Albanians, on the other hand, do not use the name "Macedonian" to describe themselves, they use the designation "Albanian" or sometimes "Illyrian" (f.ex. the Albanian university in Tetovo, etc.). The name "Macedonian Albanians" is furthermore used to refer to Albanians living in the Republic of Macedonia (likewise Bulgarian Turks for Turks living in Bulgaria) and it is used because they live in a republic called "Macedonia". It does not have ANY ETHNOGRAPHIC OR EVEN REGIONAL CONOTATION, pretty much like there is no "Bulgarian" dialect of the Turkish language or a "Bulgarian" ethnographic group of the Turkish ethnicity. Do you understand at last or what???

As for the "double standard": everything is described the way it is, you are the one who gives prescriptive evaluations. "Bulgaria" as a region is a synonym of Moesia. So can you explain to me how someone who was born in the geographical region of Macedonia will have a regional identification "Bulgarian" when the "region of Bulgaria" lies 300 km north of the northernmost part of Macedonia???

Plus, the name "Bulgarian" used by the Slavic population of Macedonia until the middle of the 20th century is scarcely a regional marker. Kuzman Shapkarev, for example, writes in "Bulgarian Primer" (1868) that "народността е най-скъпа на човека, а по народност той е българин, защото е роден от татко и майка българе и зборува български език" ("nationality is dearest for man and I am Bulgarian by nationality because I was born by a Bulgarian mother and a Bulgarian father and I speak the Bulgarian language") That much about regional identifications and the use of Bulgarian as a synonym of peasant Slav. VMORO 16:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

a note for Bomac

Do me a favour and don't revert the article. You say "Greeks aren't the only inhabitants of Macedonia", that's irrelavant with the fact that those Greeks self-identify for too many centuries (even if you don't know, or you can't believe it) as Macedonians, and has nothing to do with Macedonian Slavic people. +MATIA ☎ 13:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What can be found in a misleading edit summary: 1) the kingdom of Macedon, if not anything else, is related to the Hellenistic period, 2) Macedonian idiom has very few things to do with Attic dialect, 3) this is a quest for the reader. +MATIA ☎ 18:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, MATIA.

• There are some data that say that first Macedon was a kingdom of the Ancient Macedonians you know... That's why it isn't good to be only Hellenic (maybe smth. like Macedono-Hellenic).
• Macedonian idiom is linked with modern Greek language, and as the table for the language says - Indo-European - Greek - Attic dialect - Modern Greek. Don't tell me that isn't that way or what... Regards, Bomac 18:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian idiom, is an idiom of modern greek. Attic dialect is a dialect of ancient greek. As for the Macedon, go and read about it (Herodotus, will be a good place to start), I'm not going to ruin the surprise now. I highly encourage you to revert your edits, yourself. +MATIA ☎ 18:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

* +There are some tribes in Pakistan and Avganistan, left there from the Alexander's conqueror times that identify themselves as Macedonians.

• How should I know that Herodotus isn't a pirate-edition (falsification)? :-) Bomac 18:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

+ There are some facts that say that today's Greeks are not descendants of the Ancient Greeks. Familiar? Bomac 18:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess you are trying to make humour with the last two comments. You could read Herodotus, Isocrates, Demosthenes, or you could read Alexander the Great and search the references of that article. Kalas and other tribes in that places are interesting, but neither that argument nor the previous justify your edits. You should at least partially revert yourself. +MATIA ☎ 18:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

If you thought on "A (greek) Macedonian", I think is good to know for which Macedonian is talking about. Plus, it's the same like (bulgarian) Macedonian. Maybe not in Greece, but certainly in other countries it is called "Greek Macedonian" (I don't mind this refference). Regards, Bomac 19:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I kept part of your edit and reverted those that were unjustified. Insted of blind reverting it again, please try to read the list and analyse here, what should be changed and why. +MATIA ☎ 19:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well MATIA, if you constantly write only Macedonian for a Greek Macedonian, then I think that Macedonian shuld be for the ethnicity, too (without the prefix "modern"). Your comment please? Regards, Bomac 20:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

copy-paste:

• A (modern) Macedonian, sometimes referred to as a "Macedonian Slav" - see Macedonians (ethnic group)
• A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks

One would expect that you would be more than satisfied with the "move in one night" of Macedonian Slavs to Macedonians (ethnic group). I've pointed out before that this renaming gives disambiguation problems. Please don't push it any further.

The people who you and Wikipedia refer to as "Macedonian Greeks" used the terms Macedonians (ancient: Makedon, modern: Makedonas, plural form: Makedones). The (plain vanilla) term Macedonian has been used for those people in English a lot time before people of RoM. The term Slav Macedonian or Macedonian Slav has been used by people of RoM during the last decades, so (Slav) Macedonian would be more appropriate than (Modern) Macedonian. The Greeks always used just the term Macedonian, in the present and in the past. Please do let it alone. +MATIA ☎ 21:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No, MATIA. Today's Macedonians declare themselves as Macedonians, and not Macedonian Slavs. That's it, you can't name them whatever the greek politics want. Bomac 13:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I have lived in Greece for eleven years and I know certain things.

• No Greeks call themselves Macedonians - I don't know where that came from. They don't call themselves Macedonian Greeks or Greek Macedonians either. They call themselves Greeks, that is the only term used.
• Macedonian is not used to describe the Greek dialect of Macedonia (of which there are many). It is called Greek.

Of course what I am saying is open to rebuttal if evidence can be produced. Rex^(talk) 14:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

comment: Any public domain book (aka older than 100 years) that uses the term Macedonian describes a Greek who lives in Macedonia. Later english sources may also describe a Bulgarian in the area. The rest can be easily read at Macedonia (region) and Demographic history of Macedonia. +MATIA ☎ 17:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Evidence please? How do I know that what you are saying is true? Rex^(talk) 17:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

A note to MATIA: Please stop bullying Bomac and making personal attacks (it's a violation of your PA parole. Bomac, if MATIA makes more personal attacks, don't hesitate to report him). The "move in one night" as you offensively put it, was a valid move. As I have said, Wikipedia:Naming conflict applies until a good reason is found why this case should be treated as an exception. When a good reason is found *yeah like that's gonna happen*, then the issue can be reopened. I am of the opinion that if Britannica, The CIA World Factbook, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, The Macmillan Encyclopedia, Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, The Companion to British History, Ethnologue and the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia can all recommend the usage of the name Macedonians, who are you to say otherwise? Are they all POV pushing as well? Have you considered that all those reliable sources are right and you are wrong? I think that that's more likely. Rex^(talk) 14:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You can always RFC me REX and you'd betted do that the next time, instead of calling me indirectly a liar. I gave some good advices to Bomac regarding my ugly experiences from our ArbCom case. Your personal feeling for me are not a good enough reason to encourage Bomac (as you have done before) to violate WP policies and guidelines. I'm really sorry to hear such news from you. Btw, CDThieme got caught using 5 or more different accounts. Crime doesn't pay, as you would say in english. +MATIA ☎ 17:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow! An attempt to change the subject! Nice try :-) Let's get back to our original question: what evidence is there to support those claims that the Modern Greek-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia (Greece) call themselves Macedonians? I know as a fact that they don't, but you somehow are asserting that the Greeks always used just the term Macedonian, in the present and in the past. Nice theory, but is there any evidence? No. The fact that the RoM people call themselves Macedonians is backed by evidence (Britannica, The CIA World Factbook, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, The Macmillan Encyclopedia, Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, The Companion to British History, Ethnologue and the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia). Therefore we can call them Macedonians. Unfortunately, because of the lack of sources, we cannot say what [you say above. Maybe you should try and find some sources *snigger* Rex^(talk) 17:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

These have been listed before http://www.mpa.gr is an example. Your personal feelings for me are not a part of this article, or this article's discussion page. If you want to, you may re-open our ArbCom case. +MATIA ☎ 17:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Another attempt to change the subject, Gee! Allow me to point out something; Μακεδονικό Πρακτορείο Ειδήσεων uses the word Μακεδονικό. That is an adjective that refers to objects, not people. If they used the word Μακεδόνας to refer to a modern Greek-speaking person, then that may back your claim. That may be overlooked by someone who does not know Greek, but thankfully I do. Μακεδονικό refers to objects and in this case, Μακεδονικό Πρακτορείο Ειδήσεων means Macedonian Agency of News, a News Agency is not a person. The word Μακεδονικό is identifying its location in this case. Of course I am willing to alter my beliefs if you can provide an example of how the word Μακεδονικό can refer to a person. I know we can Μακεδονικός χαλβάς, but again, that's not a person. What other examples do you have? You say these have been listed before (sic). Do you have an example which uses the word Μακεδόνας (Macedonian) to refer to a modern Greek person? This is what we are trying to prove after all. I think that that is an inaccuracy in the article. That Macedonian can refer to: A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks (sic). That is a tremendous falsehood, and I insist on evidence that Makedonas is used to refer to Greeks today. The regional name of a news agency is seriously lacking. If you can find a link to a reliable source which uses the word Makedonas to refer to a Modern Greek person, that will constitute sufficient evidence. Wikipedia must not promote falsehoods. Rex^(talk) 18:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't have to proove the obvious (and proven by others in the past). Read Macedonia (region). +MATIA ☎ 18:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, the neutrality and factual accuracy of that article are disputed. Are you reffering to disputed (POV) sources?!? Bomac 23:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Evasion, a well-known tactic. Well, I'm afraid your bluffing is not going to help you here. There is nothing on Macedonia (region) that suggests that any modern Greeks call themselves Macedonians. Also, to answer your statement, you do have to prove the obvious. According to Wikipedia policy you have to prove everything. Thus far, nothing has been proved, despite regular requests. Rex^(talk) 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Disputed

I have added the "disputed" sign to the article as I am disputing something. The article claims that "Macedonian" can refer to:

• A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks

No sources have been provided to support this claim. I would like to challenge the defenders of this wording (which I know to be false) to cite appropriate sources. If they fail to do so, I'm afraid that reference will have to be removed. Luckily, a yahoo search for either the exact phrase "Greek Macedonians" or "Macedonian Greeks" proves that those terms are widely used [9]. Therefore, I have also removed that false note. Rex^(talk) 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Your claims do not justify the removal of the html comment. The term "Greek Macedonian" is artificial. The wiki articles I've mentioned before, proove that the greeks use that term. I'll wait for an admin to deal with your recent behaviour. +MATIA ☎ 20:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, no counter arguments. The html note said: "Macedonian Greek" and "Greek Macedonian" are two exonyms created specially for wikipedia. It was not created especially for Wikipedia. West Chester University of Pennsylvania seems to refer to the area as "Macedonia" and the people as "Macedonian Greeks" [10]. Who woulda thunk it! Rex^(talk) 21:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well you prooved that the Greeks are Macedonians (or the Macedonians are Greeks). Did you knew it before you put the disputed tag, or you just find that out? +MATIA ☎ 21:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been following this discussion for quite some time, and I appears that Rex does have a point. Without sources, you cannot add unsourced info. Izehar (talk) 21:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well Izehar, you just vandalised this article, and broke your "I'm staying neutral in controversial topics" statement. If you want sources check the articles I've previously mentioned. Do revert yourself by the way. +MATIA ☎ 21:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I reverted myself - sorry for butting in like this, but the evidence all seemed to point in this direction. It is one of my firm beliefs to remain neutral on controversial issues. I'll check out your links. Izehar (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's a source Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece, Mr Martis also has more documents available. (Thanks for the revert Izehar) +MATIA ☎ 21:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, let's drop the imaginary sources and get down to facts. You are so confident that those articles contain evidence that Modern Greeks in Macedonia call themselves Macedonians. Can you copy-paste some specific sections? I'm afraid I can't find any. Rex^(talk) 22:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Your term "imaginary sources" is offending me and if I remember correctly it was discussed in our ArbCom case. Please read the sources and the related wiki articles. Thank you. +MATIA ☎ 22:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I've read them. In no place does it say that Greeks in Macedonia call themselves Macedonians. Could you please copy-paste the relevant sections (that is assuming they exist and you are not mistaken). Rex^(talk) 22:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

A man from Albania is called "an Albanian". A man from Macedonia (Μακεδονία) is called "a Macedonian" (Μακεδόνας). I don't know what else to tell you about it. +MATIA ☎ 22:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Would I be right in saying that the term "Μακεδόνας" is only applied to Greeks from Macedonia? Would it be applied, for instance, to inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia, or to Slavic Macedonians in Greece? -- ChrisO 22:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Those Greeks call themselves Macedonians. In ancient greek (and katharevousa) it is singular form Μακεδών plural form Μακεδόνες. In modern greek (δημοτική νεοελληνική) it is singular Μακεδόνας, plurar Μακεδόνες. In english singular Macedonian plural Macedonians. The term "Slavic Macedonians" is translated into "Σλαβομακεδόνες". While "Slavomakedones" is used sometimes, the term Skopjans (Σκοπιανοί) is used more often, or sometimes "inhabitants of FyRoM (ΠΓΔΜ)". The (new) naming policy should be applied to Greek people too. And the disambiguation guidelines should treat everyone equally. +MATIA ☎ 22:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Macedo-Romanians

If this was not clear, "Macedo-Romanians" is simply an abbreviation of "Macedonian Romanians". While at the moment, the most common term is Aromanians, the term is still used by some people. Some even use the "Macedonian Romanians" form. http://www.farsarotul.org/nl10_3.htm bogdan 22:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

extra text that isn't helpful shouldn't be added

This is not a political issue. The point is, how are people going to find the articles they are looking for? If it's called FYROM, and someone is looking for the place, they don't care why. Put the Why on the page itself, not the dab page. The dab page has only one purpose, to help people find the right article from among those that share the same or similiar names. Tedernst | talk 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Illogical dabpage

Please read up on what a dabpage is actually supposed to be. It's not supposed to be any kind of dictionary entry, and it's certainly not supposed to be a battleground for ethnic or nationalist POV-fights. I've cleaned it up from irrelevancies and I urge you to keep any factual additions to a minimum; they belong in the articles linked from here, not in this page.

And please don't add links to geographical entities, since "Macedonian(s)" can't possibly directly refer to any type of Macedonia.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The previous format of the page provides a better insight into the problem, you haven't explained yet why the categorisation of the different uses of the term is necessarily something bad. The POV/nationalist fights have nothing to do with the format of the article, they'll continue in this format, as well. You have erased half the entries on top of it - the ones from the geographical section. VMORO 10:31, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't need either a TOC or categorization to list a handful of links. It just clutters up the page. And the reason that I've removed all the geographic links is very simple: "Macedonian" can not refer to any place at all unless it is used as an adjective. And since we're not a dictionary, listing adjectives isn't relevant in the least. See French, Chinese and German for examples. Note the links to the PRC and ROC has been smoothly inserted in the descriptions rather than trying to disambiguate them from a term they can't actually be confused with (as is done here). Dabpages are navigational aids that are supposed to help readers sort out articles that, without disambiguation, would have identical titles. Not to provide a general collection of links to a loosely defined topic. I.e. at least three articles listed here could be named just "Macedonian"; Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (religious group) and Macedonian language, but not Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Greek Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia or just any article title containing the word "Macedonia".

Peter ^Isotalo 18:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Theathenae's edits

Oddly enough, I'm surprised to find some good edits by Theathenae. I have added a clarification to the geography section, as the term 'Macedonian' cannot mean 'Macedonia'. What I would like to know however, is why do you say that the ethnic Greeks of Aegean/Greek Macedonia call themselves 'Macedonians' or 'Makedones'? I have lived in Greece for 11 years and I know that the call themselves 'Greeks' or 'Ellines', not 'Makedones'. I know that they call the region 'Makedonia', but I have seen no evidence so far, that it can refer to the people as well. Do you think you could present your source? Rex^(talk) 14:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Get it [11] [12] [13]Makedwn (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation page cleanup

I've cleaned up this disambiguation page. Could everyone here please make sure that they've read Wikipedia:Disambiguation to ensure that they understand the requirements? Specific points I'd like to highlight are:

• The disambiguation page should include only the information that is required to disambiguate the term. Including Greek language terms isn't necessary - it's the English terms that are being disambiguated, not the Greek ones.

• There should be only one link per disambiguated term and it should go from the term to the relevant article.

• The link should use the name of the linked article or something as close as possible to it, not a piped link. Hence "Macedonian ethnic group" for "Macedonians (ethnic group)", "region of Macedonia" for "Macedonia (region)", etc.

In addition, because of the repeated revert warring and vandalism from anonymous users that seems to accompany any article mentioning the M******** word, I've semi-protected the page. New and unregistered users won't be able to edit it. Hopefully this will reduce some of the disruptive editing we've seen here recently. -- ChrisO 22:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Bewildered

I am bewildered at your conversation! This is why:

• Big portion of southern Macedonia was cut off and added to Greece in the 2nd decade of the 20-the century - pure historical fact.
• The people living there were for the most part ethnic macedonians simp - that area has been part of Macedonia for about 2600 years (or maybe even more)- yet another fact.
• It is false to assume that they ever refered to themselves as 'greeks'. Some extremely minor exceptions might have done so, but that doesn't caracterise a whole ethnic group!!!
• Even if someone did refer to himself as a greek, and yet they are genetically macedonian, we need little mental effort to understand that they are actually not greeks, whatever they may say - genetics is stronger than feeings. The right to declare yourself as of whatever nationality you wish is purely a socio-political tool for solving minority/majority conflicts and has nothing to do with reality, with which we are concerned here as this is an encyclopedia.

Since all of thease premises are supported by an enormous number of historical evidence and the opposite oppinion by almost zero, I conclude my exposition here by being bewildered at what you are on about all the time.

I understand that both sides cling on to their own viewpoint because they were thaught like that at school, by their parents, grandparents, friends etc. One gets attached to what means to oneself which is the people around you, your relatives and whatever is dear to you. That is of course not a reason to be stubborn. The world is not going to fall apart if somethnig is otherwise then I or you thought.

• Besides, no one even touches on the question of the origin of the present greek nation, which is a separate topic altogether. There is also an unaccountable number of historical evidence to attest to the kind of amalgamation I consider the greeks to be as a nation. But don't get me started on that.--Bjankuloski06en 06:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Your problem is Bulgaria not Greece. This area of Paiono-Dardania was known as BULGARIA for centuries since the Slavs came and mixed with Bulgars and Avars.

• Ancient Macedonians had already been absorbed in the mixed Greco-Roman world. Fact 2Makedwn (talk) 07:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Connected?

Connected is not the right word to use here, it is not idiomatically correct English. Second - birth and descent, those do not preclude people that were born elsewhere to move to the region and identify themselves with that region. FunkyFly 19:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. I have reworded it a bit. Personally, I dislike the term "Macedonian Greeks" so I removed that and added "Macedonian Slavs" instead (to avoid the monopolisation that the Greeks so fear :P). The "ethnic" prefix is taken from the article on the Bosnians. There are three major ethnic groups in Bosnia, Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and (Bosnian) Bosniaks (ethnic Bosnians). As the heading here says that Macedonian can refer to any of these people, then there is no point in saying that Macedonian refers to a Macedonian. This is a disambiguation page - we are not supposed to confuse readers. --Latinus 19:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Unrecognized

See talk of Macedonian Orthodox Church. Btw, I am not using other articles as "sources" as you claim. I'm merely redirecting you to a place where you can find more info, because not all of it can be fit in this page. Mr. Neutron 14:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Except for the externalized links on the article, the information is not allocated any sources. Frightner 14:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Then maybe you should improve the article by moving some of the information from the links to it. Mr. Neutron 14:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Macedonians

"Macedonians" is redundant because the article is already called "Macedonian". There is no reason to state the same thing twice, so please do not reinsert it. Mr. Neutron 13:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic group?

You cannot refer to Macedonian Slavs as a distinct "ethnic group." This is clearly biased. There is no evidence that the Slavic peoples of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are a distinct ethnic group. This should be a politics free source of information, not a space for propoganda!

If you wish to use sub-categories, such as Greek Macedonians,you distinguish citizens of FYROM as a distinct ethnic group, and term —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.157.30 (talk) 17:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to argue the page title, argue it at the page itself. The dab page is just for linking to it, not (re)naming it. -Bbik^★ 20:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

On top of that, no official source denies the fact that they are distinct people. Even Greece acknowledges their separate existence. What it denies is their un-disambiguated name. See the text of the official position of Greece here. --NikoSilver 20:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect! This is not a dispute over the name "Macedonia." I am disputing the claim that "Macedonian" can refer to a specific ethnic group. Furthermore, Greece has never officially acknowledged the existence of such an ethnic group. And, frankly, I do not care what the position of any country is! That is my point; this is wikipedia, not a platform for nationalist propaganda. I reposted above, because this is a disputed claim, and, moreover, it is not substantiated by any scholarly citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.157.30 (talk) 02:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

As for being a dab page, I believe it misleads readers. If you wish, then, you should make clear that the link is for the claim Macedonian ethnic group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.157.30 (talk) 02:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[Shifted to keep it all in one topic -Bbik^★] There is a dispute; it should be acknowledged that the Macedonian "ethnic group" link is a "claim". The link, for instance, should read: "Macedonian (ethnic group claim)". If there is such a distinct ethnic group, I expect valid academic citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.157.30 (talk)

Again, I point you to the article itself if you have an issue. Changing the link on this dab page into a redirect will not change the name of the article itself. Also, I clearly didn't delete your comment, as you yourself see since you responded to my answer. And reposting it at the top again, when it's already down here, just causes redundancy, which I will continue to delete or shift back down here. Spreading this one point across the entire talk page is a good way to make a mess of it all, not improve anything. -Bbik^★ 07:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Macedonians are gene connected with ancient Macedonins, but most of today greeks are the one that came later on those lands.

For example i will upload the university research of the real blood connected to the ancient people of macedonia and greece. Macedonians today in republic of Macedonia are people with roots from the ancient macadonians and from the slaves that come on every part on the balkans,all the way to the pellopones.(thats why a lot of the mountains and piks in south greece are from slavic language).

[14]

i copy and paste the conclusion from the research:

Macedonians

Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1–3). This supports the theory that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks (10) about 2000 B.C. Other possible explanation is that they might have shared a genetic background with the Greeks before an hypothetical admixture between Greeks and sub- Saharans might have occurred. The cultural, historical and genetic identity of Macedonians is established according to our results. However, 19th century historians focused all the culture in Greece Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 125 ignoring all the other Mediterranean cultures present in the area long before the classical Greek one....

      Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans

Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina- Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icesarimak (talk • contribs) 08:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC) --Icesarimak (talk) 08:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. Please read the academic sources commenting on the above in the Arnaiz-Villena controversy. Thanks. NikoSilver 20:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It`s very natural for the greeks to deny that.For sure thay will say this is wrong, but everyone can see the truth.

Even a greek politician in Brussels named Macedonians as Macedonians a few days ago when he was arguing. When people are angry thay speak what is very close in the mind (he know who are macedonians) [15] --Icesarimak (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Even your Makedonski ex-prime minister declares BULGARIAN Your issue is Bulgaria , NOT Greece btw ....Why the research did not include B U L G A R I A N S??

p.s. Ancient Macedonians had already mixed with Anatolians, Persians and Africans ..unfortunately they did not go to Don river in Russia the historical home of Slavs Makedwn (talk) 07:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

What?

Macedonian may refer to:

The southwestern dialects of the Bulgarian language.

Does anyone call the dialect in Southwestern Bulgaria "Macedonian"? If not, then we all know what this is referring to....BalkanFever 07:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

How's the game of moving your tags to the top going, kids? :) Anywho, if the Bulgarians of the Pirin call themselves Macedonians, one would assume that's what they'd call their dialect too. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Did it say somewhere (I think in Macedonia terminology) that the Bulgarians in Pirin don't call themselves Macedonians so as not to be confused with those "ethnopolitically confused Bulgarians who also call themselves Macedonians". And LOL, look at the contribs of the IP :). BalkanFever 10:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please source the Bulgarians state their dialect as "Macedonian" or it will be deleted. Maktruth (talk) 05:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So why have you gone ahead and deleted it before waiting for a response? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I am waiting for the response.... Maktruth (talk) 06:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

See your comment above. "Please source... or it will be deleted." You should have waited a reasonable amount of time for a response, not 3 minutes. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 06:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Actaually there's enough prove just bellow my comment. Are you sure you've read it? Moreover - there are no sources for the others as well. Why don't you first source them and then ask for sources for the Bulgarian. Your current edits are more like plain vandalism. --Laveol ^T 20:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Macedonians of Pirin are Bulgarians by ethnicity and Macedonian by region just like Anatolian Banat Thracian etc Bulgarians

btw diaspora of MPO since 1900 declared and declares both Macedonian and Bulgarian Makedwn (talk) 07:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Македонска слава (Macedonian glory) - a soccer team from Blagoevgrad, currently in the A league
2. Македонският научен институт (the Macedonian Scientific Institute) - an institute established in the 1920s by refugees from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, functioning today, as well
3. Macedonian dialects of the Bulgarian language - part of the Western Bulgarian dialects - can mean only the two main dialects in Pirin Macedonia, as well as all Slavic dialects in Macedonia (mostly in historical perspective)
4. Macedonian folklore/ethnographic region - in all sources about Bulgarian music or ethnography, the following division is adopted: северняшки (Northern = Moesian), шопски (Shop = region of Sofia), тракийски (Thracian, includes Thrace + refugees in other parts of the country), родопски (Rhodopian = the Rhodopes), добруджански (Dobrujan, includes Dobruja + refugees in other parts of the country), македонски (Macedonian, includes Pirin Macedonia + refugees in other parts of the country)
5. the Pirin Fest and Pirin Folk folklore festivals (held in Sandanski and Blagoevgrad) are called "festivals of the Macedonian song"
6. Македонска трибуна (Macedonian Tribune), a newspaper of Macedonian emigrants with Bulgarian self-consciousness in Canada written in the old alphabet [16]

Makedwn (talk) 07:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well that's fine then. BalkanFever 10:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Macedonian: ethnic of regional

I want to hear an opinion from a Greek, since I know that Greeks are constantly on all Macedonian pages of Wikipedia. You state their are 2 Macedonians: ethnic Macedonians and Greek Macedonians. Now, Macedonians (with a Slavic origin) state "Macedonian" in terms of ethnicity. Greek Macedonians state "Macedonian" in terms of regional identity, but still state Greek in terms of ethnicity. So, how are there two Macedonian ETHNICITIES? When clearly "Macedonian" in Greek Macedonian is simply a regional identifier? Also, what about the ethnic Macedonians living in Greece, what are they supposed to call themselves? Since "Greek Macedonians" view that term as being Greek ethnicity with Macedonian regionally (hence: Greeks living in Macedonia) doesn't that monopolite from ethnic Macedonians living in Greece from calling themselves "Greek Macedonian" in which "Greek" means nationality and "Macedonian" means ethnicity? The same argument holds true with "Albanian Macedonians"(ethnic Macedonians living in Albania), "Bulgarian Macedonians" (ethnic Macedonians living in Bulgaria), and "Serb Macedonian" (ethnic Macedonians living in Serbia)Maktruth (talk) 05:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted your recent edits. This wording has been meticulously debated. Please respect the consensus. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 06:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnic Macedonians" in Bulgaria

Why do they need to be listed separately? Are they a separate ethnic group from those in the fYRoM? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Just like the Serbs in Macedonia are listed Separately, or the Albanians in Macedonia are listed separately, the Macedonians of Serbia/Bulgaria/Albania are listed separately. Why are you trying to create a double standard? Maktruth (talk) 16:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't all these crossover groups go out? It's supposed to be a disambiguation page, not a list of all (sub-)groups of people in Macedonia. Only groups that are specifically called "Macedonians", full stop, should be included here. As far as I can see, that applies to perhaps only two, maximum four groups in this list:

• People from Macedonia (region), independently of ethnicity
• The Macedonians (ethnic group)
• Citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, independently of ethnicity
• Greek people from Macedonia (Greece)

All other groups of people in that list are merely subgroups of some of the above. Would anybody, for instance, use "Macedonian" to mean specifically the Albanians in geographical Macedonia (rather than all geographical Macedonians including the Albanians)? If that's not the case, that group is not a candidate for a dab entry. Same with Serb Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, Aromanians etc. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

So what's the basic difference between Bulgarian Macedonians (Bulgarians that live in the region of Macedonia) and Greeks from Macedonia (Greece) who happen to live in the very same region of Macedonia? They're both in the People from Macedonia (region) group, too, and they are specifically referred to as Macedonians in both countries. --Laveol ^T 09:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure – with the Greek group you get one type of usage according to which the term "Macedonian" refers exclusively to the GreekMacs. A GreekMac might tell a SlavMac: "I am a Macedonian, you aren't". Just like conversely a SlavMac might say the same to the Greek. It's only for this reason that these two groups need their own entries. Is there a corresponding usage in Bulgaria, referring specifically to ethnic Bulgarian inhabitants of geographic Macedonia, to the exclusion of Greeks and/or SlavMacs? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the same seems to be the case for the geographical entries at Macedonia (disambiguation). If a person travels from Bitola to Florina, one person might describe that as: "I left Macedonia and entered Greece". Another person might describe the same passage as "I left Skopje and entered Macedonia". A third person might say "I went from one part of Macedonia to another". Now what about a traveller from Blagoevgrad to Pehcevo? Is there anybody who would say "I left Macedonia and entered FYROM", on crossing the border? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Not to the exclusion of Greeks, but of the Mac from RoM surely. The BG Maks I know call themselves Maks and the other - fyromci (fyromians - I mean no offense with this just in case someone feels offended). It's because of the recent developments in the relations between the two countries and so on. They use the abbreviation to distinguish themselves from the others who are in fact not real Maks, but some Serb or communist or whatever creation --Laveol ^T 09:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

To the second question - it's the same again - yes, they would refer to RoM as FYROM. I was in the region in December and they did actually call the land on the other side of the border FYROM. --Laveol ^T 09:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

To the first: How strange. Has hat usage been found in English? To the second: The question is not if they called the other side FYROM, the question is if they called their own side "M" in contrast with the other. And again, does anybody do it in English? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter? The "other Macedonians" don't really call themselves anything in English unless they have to translate for a foreign audience. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 13:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but usage in English is what guides our usage here, isn't it? I'm just asking, does anybody really think any English speaker would ever type "Macedonian" into the Wiki search box and expect to be led to an article that deals specifically and exclusively with the Bulgarians in Blagoevgrad? Or with the Albanians of Tetovo? If not, then why are such articles here on the dab page? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

In order for that to happen, such an article would have to be allowed to exist first. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 14:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Uhm, no. Non sequitur. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really. You've already decided that he or she wouldn't, so you'd just merge it even if it were ever created. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 14:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, isn't wiki supposed to be a source of information as well? I mean if you don't know something existed you'd have to understand that from somewhere. I've learned about tons of things I had never imagined existed form Wikipedia. And I had no plan to search for them. The whole DYK stuff is kind of such thing as well. So why in the world should we remove something that is a valid piece of information and might be interesting to someone. Someone who didn't know other people could call themselves Macedonian besides those in RoM, for example. Why are you being persisting to remove Bulgarians from here? --Laveol ^T 14:49, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

But that's not what disambiguation pages are for. They are solely navigation aids. The real information is supposed to be elsewhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

What you mean is if someone was to create an article about Macedonian Bulgarians (people from Blagoevgrad province) then this should be listed in the disambugation page?--Laveol ^T 14:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is a chance that such people would be called simply "Macedonians", in English, in explicit distinction to others, then yes. "No, this person is neither from Thessaloniki nor from Skopje, he is a Macedonian!" Realistic? Enter "Macedonian" in the search box and expect an article about that group? I doubt it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

A Bulgarian would type Macedonian and expect to see only Bulgarian :))--Laveol ^T 15:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and start the article, Laveol. Let's see how long it lasts. I mean if we can have an article on "Macedonians on Mars", why the fuck not? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 15:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Getting a tiny little bit oversensitive, are we? Dude, I wasn't even talking about the viability of such an article. But since you bring it up, why would we want one? Population groups that are the (overwhelming) majority in a given territory usually don't need an article separate from that about the territory. It would otherwise just lead to duplication of content. Anything that can be said about them can just as well be said about the territory as a whole. Of course, this simple fact of reader-friendly information packaging hurts if one thinks of Wikipedia articles as symbolic badges of recognition of a group's existence. What a pathetic perspective. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Tell that to the "Macedonians in Uranus" crowd, not me. As for the rest, I suppose that means we don't need Germans any more. Shall I propose a merge? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, please stop the embarrassing Macedonian mocking you have been doing in Wikipedia, there cannot be a double standard, therefore Albanians in Macedonia (Albanian Macedonians) should be complemented with Macedonians in Albania (Macedonian Albanians) and etc for Bulgarians/Bulgaria and Serbians/Serbia. Maktruth (talk) 01:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, your sense of analogies is seriously off. We do have separate articles on top-level ethnic groups / nations: Greeks, Germans, Bulgarians, Albanians. The reason we have these in addition to their nation-state is that the states and the distribution of the ethnicities usually don't coincide. In addition, we often have minority articles. Greeks in X, Germans in X, Bulgarians in X, Macedonians in X. What we don't have is subgroups of ethnic groups in their own territory: Athenians in Athens, Cretans in Crete, Bavarians in Bavaria. Why should we have Mac-Bulgarians in Blagoevgrad? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is the last warning, if the page is changed to create a double standard action will be taken. Maktruth (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You're in the wrong article mate. Perhaps you're looking for the "Slavomacedonians around the world" article?--   Avg    21:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we really don't need the whole ethnic Macedonian diaspora articles mentioned here (needless cluttering). They go under Macedonians (ethnic group). There is a diaspora section in that article, right? 3rdAlcove (talk) 00:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, we all know what is going on here: If "Macedonian" can mean an Albanian living in Macedonia, then it can also mean Ethnic Macedonian living in Albania and vise versa, cause after all Albanians in Macedonia are a SUBGROUP just like Macedonians in Albania are a SUBGROUP, either remove both or keep both, there cannot be a double standard Maktruth (talk) 05:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, your wording is wrong. Macedonian Albanian actually means a person with Macedonian ethnic living in Albania... if you wanted "Albanian living in Macedonia" it would be Albanian Macedonian... just like Greek American, Macedonian American etc and etc Maktruth (talk) 05:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, stop it everybody. All the subgroups go out. (1) "Macedonian" means either all inhabitants of geographic Macedonia together, independent of ethnic group; or (2) all citizens of the RoM; or (3) all ethnic Macedonians, independent of the country. Nothing else. I've left the Greek usage in for the moment, additionally, although I'm not really sure even that belongs - where it occurs in English, it is arguably just an instance of meaning (1); the more specific, exclusive usage (where it means only the GreekMacs to the exclusion of all others) is arguably something restricted to extremist Greek nationalist discourse, and not at all common in general English usage. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Subgroups

According to some, the term "Macedonian" can have many meaning, most of which are subgroups of an ethnicity (ie: Serbians living in Macedonia) but fail to show ethnic Macedonian subgroups living in neighboring states, after all that is one of the terms for Macedonian:

1) Ethnic Macedonian

2) Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia are being called "Albanian Macedonians" or "Macedonian Albanians" without even recognizing that most (if not all) Albanians in Macedonia don't even describe themselves as that. Also: "Macedonian Albanian" cannot be monopolized since Macedonians in Albania can use that term to describe themselves, so again A DOUBLE STANDARD CANNOT OCCUR!

3) Serbs of the Republic of Macedonia are being called "Macedonian Serbs" without realizing the term monopolizes against the Macedonians in Serbia since they describe themselves as "Macedonian Serbian" AGAIN A DOUBLE STANDARD CANNOT OCCUR!

4) Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia or in Pirin Macedonia are being called "Macedonian Bulgarian" even though many historical documents state "BULGARIAN MACEDONIAN" (ie: ethnicity first, region second) AND again the term monopolizes against Macedonians in Bulgaria who describe themselves as "Macedonian Bulgarian" AGAIN A DOUBLE STANDARD CANNOT OCCUR Maktruth (talk) 06:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The best thing which could occur is show the ethnic Macedonians, any citizen of Macedonian Republic, or any citizen of Greek Macedonia (which includes the Greek subgroup Macedonian) Maktruth (talk) 06:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Aromanians

Not sure if this is as relevant in English, but the Aromanians are called "Macedonians" (Machedoni) by the Romanians. BalkanFever 06:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you find out if that usage was ever relevant for English, in some historical context maybe? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In a historical context, it would probably be referring to a specific group/tribe of "Vlachs" called "Macedonians", or a specific group/tribe of "Romanians" called "Macedonians", but I'm guessing most of it would be Romanian literature. But I'll look. BalkanFever 06:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I know what you are talking about, most of the Macedonian dynasty were of Armenian/Vlach origin but called themselves Macedonian based on location Maktruth (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Source? Just out of curiosity. There are some interesting references to "Macedonians" in Byzantine sources, in an apparent ethnic sense, I've often wondered what those actually referred to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I made a typo, I meant Armenian but I typed Aromanian Maktruth (talk) 07:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

No, you meant Aromanian. That is a synonym of Vlach; Armenian isn't. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 09:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The Macedonian dynasty's origins were primarly Armenian and secondarily Greek, actually. And their geographic origins lay in the theme of Macedonia, in what before and after was called Thrace. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Most rulers were Armenian, and isn't it interesting how the Macedonia (theme) is in modern day Bulgaria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg? Isn't it more interesting how a GEOGRAPHIC REGION (Greek claim) can constantly change? Maktruth (talk) 07:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Urgh, isn't it most interesting that one would try to establish an ethnicity based on such a fluid geographic concept? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Usually the boarders change when the people move, get what I mean ;) Maktruth (talk) 08:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting how Thessaloníki and Macedonia aren't in the same Theme on this one Maktruth (talk) 08:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Let alone any part of what you call "Macedonia" today. Bulgaria, anyone? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but if you're saying Republic of Macedonia should be called "Bulgaria" because that was the theme during Byzantine Empire, then it means that Greek Macedonia has to change their name and that Bulgaria is the only one who has claims to the name "Macedonia." But, like I stated it is interesting that a geographic land CHANGES because geographic lands only change if the people who inhabit it move around. Maktruth (talk) 19:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the only chunk of land in the region that was never actually called "Macedonia" before modern times is the one that claims a national monopoly on the name today. Funny that. The different referents of the term Macedonia just go to show how arbitrary toponyms can be, which may explain why they are such poor determinants of ethnic identity. A more meaningful ethnic distinction would be that between, say, Greeks and Slavs, involving real linguistic and cultural differences. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep dreaming, it was called Macedonia during Yugoslavia, it was called Macedonia during the Ottoman Empire (late), it was a part of the Roman Macedonia and it was a part of the expanded ancient Macedonia Kingdom. Maktruth (talk) 22:53, 4 May 2008

Nice, a new argument from RoM arises. The territory is fluid because the people associated with it (the "Aromanians/Armenians", one assumes)...moved around. Keep at it, you might hit a gold mine eventually. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Those were different boarders, this is a completely different topic Mactruth (talk) 08:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No shit? I think you're a tad confused. 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:28, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Μακεδόνες

I must ask those removing the "or simply Macedonians" bit from the entry on the Greek regional group to stop. The self-identifying term for the Macedonians is simply Macedonians (Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) when referring to their regional identity. Greek Macedonians is used by non-Greeks to distinguish them from the Slavs, not by the Macedonians themselves. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Macedonian

• Basicly by Macedonian we mainly mainly refer to a citizen of Republic of Macedonia, a person with Macedonian Nationality or a member of Macedonians (ethnic group). That is the most obvious and correct use of the term. This Macedonian Identity is widely documented and precisely describes the population by Nationality, Ethnicity, Citizenship.

• Macedonian as a regional Identity even if we can talk of such identity, is undocumented and unverifible. why?
  • Currently there is no ID document that describes this kind of regional identity.
  • There has not been any official census in the Region to investigate the presence or the declaration as Macedonian by the population.
  • There is no official criteria by wich someone can clame this kind of regional Identity. (e.g. see Bavarian Regional Identity and the official Bavarian citizenship criteria).
  • there is such a great variery of population with different nationalities, ethnicities, native languages, religion, living in the different states that share the Region Macedonia, that the broad regional Macedonian Identity can be considered hardly an Identity. Alex Makedon (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing you a favor responding here. I'm tired of these actions. You will not make such an important change without consensus.--Zakronian (talk) 18:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There was not an important change, i just organized the information better. Do you have any reliable argumented evidence or your reverts are just vandalism? Alex Makedon (talk) 19:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No it was just vandalism, wait for the other vandals also to destroy your NPOV edit. We like to destroy the work of good will editors.--Zakronian (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

thank you for proving my point, keep the vandalism, povs and the irony for the forums. Wikipedia is about facts and evidence, thank you.Alex Makedon (talk) 19:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

For every user who's interested please see the discussion opened by User:Alex Makedon in Talk:Macedonia (Greece).--Zakronian (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This is no vandalism as defined by Wikipedia. Another such mention in an edit-comment or in the talkpage and you're going to ANI. --Laveol ^T 21:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think he prettymuch admitted what he had done, even from the militant tone used you can see the non good faith, there is not much to discuss here. Alex Makedon (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't think too much about the obvious though, it might get you an aneurysm.--Zakronian (talk) 03:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Calm down ladies. Wouldn't want any of you to lose a nail now. BalkanFever 06:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok some serious talk now.

• The term Macedonian is obviously used primary to indicate a citizen of Republic of Macedonia, a person with Macedonian Nationality or a member of Macedonians (ethnic group). This also than obvious are verificated, official facts.
• Secondly there is the generic Macedonian regional Identity, the much discussed Macedonians (Greek) regional Identity belongs in this group. The regional Macedonian identity, is defacto unofficial and undocumented.

Now its clear that a National and Ethnic identity comes first, in importance, appearance and its the primary or the main significance of the term. So given all this its clear that this article cannot be structured by "Macedonian may refer to anything related to.." since there is clearly a primary connotation of Macedonian and other minor connotations. Do state valid and documented arguments about different vews on the matter, thank you. Alex Makedon (talk) 10:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you give an official source about your first sentence Alex Makedon ?--Zakronian (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, can you have a look at WP:OR before continuing these series of posts? Thanks.--   Avg    17:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

official documented evidence about the Macedonian Nationality and Ethnicity:

• Republic of Macedonia Constitution - Macedonian Nation, People, Language [17]
• official census by the Goverment of Republic of Macedonia pdf page 34, population according to etchnic affilation [18]
• Macedonian Nationality and Ethnicity in Cia world fact book [19]
• United Nations document - Macedonian Ethnicity [20]
• and many other United Nations documents about Macedonian Nationality and Ethnicity [21]

the list can go on forever... The question disputes the obvious since its clear that when we compare an official Nationality and Ethnicity name and an unofficial regional undocumented Identity, the main and primary use of the term is the official Nationality and Ethnicity.

Can you state valid and documented arguments about different vews on the matter, mainly official documented evidence about the regional Macedonian identity, and arguments about why should the article place on the same level and give the same importance to a regional unofficial and unevidented identity and an official National identity? thank you Alex Makedon (talk) 18:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

You probably didn't read WP:OR. Let me copy and paste it for you: Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. To make it even clearer, the notion that a national identity is more "important" and "significant" than a regional identity and is the "primary connotation" is your original thought. --   Avg    18:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Lol this is ridiculous, with paradoxes like this everything can be disputed. Here is one too: is there a document (ergo a non personal opinion) that the regional unverified identity should be attributed with the same importance as an official National Identity? Alex Makedon (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm bored debating fringe theories. Also I'm sure the guys at all relevant articles like American, Moldovan etc would be delighted to hear your arguments. Don't limit your wisdom to us. And anyway, there is already an order here in mentioning the names: 1)region 2)country 3)province so what more do you want? You want to exclude everybody else except you from the page? You want your folk to be mentioned with larger fonts than the rest? I'm curious.--   Avg    18:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Η αλεπού στον ύπνο της... ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 20:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Alex Makedon your sources are irrelevant to my request. Do you have any official government document for "Now its clear that a National and Ethnic identity comes first, in importance, appearance and its the primary or the main significance of the term" ? Cause if you don't it's unofficial, and let me not forget, are you documented yourself ? I can't discuss with an undocumented person for an undocumented obvious priority. Send me a copy of your birth certificate and criminal record, for all i know i could be talking to an unofficial cat molester right now.--Zakronian (talk) 03:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

negating the obvious are we? Is there a document (ergo a non personal opinion) that the regional unverified identity should be attributed with the same importance as an official National Identity? If not why keep the WP:OR on the article? Take Luxembourgers and the region Luxembourg (Belgium) as an example. At leat state any documet about the population declaring this regional Identity. And do state some valid arguments, othervise you won't contribute much, see here [WP:NPOV] thank you Alex Makedon (talk) 07:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Lets take the example from American its stated: 1) State Nationality, 2) Geographical Region Identity, is this so hard to comprehend? does this offend someones nationalistic feelings?Alex Makedon (talk) 07:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok i have cleand up the article, having for example American, have not added a main use and less common use reference. Have added see also. Alex Makedon (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Macedonian improvement suggestions

Ok, since it seems we have to do with some pretty stubborn unconstructive revert loving people better discuss the modifications step by step.

1) I think we all agree that the Article needs improvement, just compare it to American or Moldovan or any other disambiguation page. The information is badly organized for a disambiguation page. see WP:D

• i dont think there are people disagreeing with a better organisation of the same information content, stiill if you find something problematic in this, state your arguments.

2) Macedonian as the name of the Republic of Macedonia Nationality, even if is widely supported with official evidence (see above), is omitted as information. There is just a vaugue and prettumuch unclear reference: "a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria or Greece".

3) There is too much attention on mainly undocumented and unofficial Regional Identity connotations of the term Macedonian, that even if undocumented, yes should be present, still should not dominate the article as it is now.

4) There are some incorrect informations stated: Macedonian does not stand for Bulgarian or a Greek citizen beyond the Regional Identity that is clearly already stated. In other words the the citizens of Greece and Bulgaria, or the generic group of people that have Greek and Bulgarian citizenship are not reffered to, or identified as Macedonians. There is no evidence of this. Same with the Albanian and Serbian citizens that are not identified as Macedonians that btw are not even mentioned in the article.

Alex Makedon (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Your edit hardly constitutes an improvement. Despite your protestations, a majority of Macedonians, whether of the Greek, Bulgarian or even the moderate ethnic "Macedonian" variety, do not identify with your ethnonationalism. Skewing the page so heavily in your favour would simply not satisfy WP:NPOV. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont understand you. What do you intend by "your ethnonationalism"? or by "in your favour"? My "ethnonationalism" is not the subject of the discussion. Talk about the content and not the editors. What are your stands? What is it that you oppose?

• I immagine by "ethnonationalism variety" you intend Macedonian Ethnicity and Republic of Macedonia Nationality, both of them heavily documented, by UN and various Goverment Official Documents (i have quoted some, see above)

• in the fraze "a majority of Macedonians" under the term Macedonians you use a link to the Macedonia (region). So by "Majority of the Macedonia (region)" you intend population, geographic area or what? what is your point with this "majority" talk?
• I think you have have misunderstood me, I have never stated that the majority of the population of the region Macedonia are citizens of Republic of Macedonia, have Macedonian Nationality or are a part of the Macedonians (ethnic group). However this does not deny the fact that they are official verificated identeties.
• About the Regional Macedonian Identity, since it seems you are talking about that, i think i have been clear, even if its undocumented and unofficial i do not oppose the presence of this Regional Identity connotation of the term Macedonian. Still since the unofficial character of this Regional Identity i would suggest to review its "dominance" in the article. This is a minor correction. All the content informatin will remain the same.

• Do you agree on point 4? Its clear that not all of the people that have Greek and Bulgarian citizenship are reffered to, or identified as Macedonians. So its incorrect to say that the citizens of this countries are identified as Macedonians since that aspect is delineated with a Regional identity not a national(citisenship) one. Alex Makedon (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Your arguments read curiously like those of a certain User:Toci who used to frequent these parts. What's an etchnicity, anyway? It seems to come up again and again in amongst the chaos of your rambling posts. If it has anything to do with engraving, I consider it exceedingly tacky and am therefore not interested. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

State some serious arguments this is not your forum. Reverting in lack of arguments and facts is vandalism WP:VAN.Alex Makedon (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What's there to argue over? Apart from looking ugly, the main purpose of your edit is to diminish the importance of the Macedonian identities of those who don't share your etchnicity. The fact you consider my Macedonian identity "undocumented", "unofficial", "unverificated" or whatever else is, frankly, nothing more than your irrelevant personal opinion. I consider your "Macedonian" etchnicity to be historically unattested and unjustified, but I can't change the article accordingly, can I? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It would have been my POV if i havent quoted official documents about Macedonians (ethnic group) and Macedonian Nationality . Can you point out some official documents about the Regional Macedonian Identity? In lack of arguments you keep pushing the discussion on a personal level, cheap forum chat about "me" will not justify your reverts and obstruction. The things are pretty clear. Alex Makedon (talk) 15:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you fail to realize the absurdity of what you're asking for? If the region is officially called Macedonia, what are its inhabitants? Martians? Does Australia have "official documents" to "prove" the existence of Victorians? Does Canada have "evidence" of the existence of Ontarians? Just quit while you're ahead, matey; you won't get anywhere here. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As you realize too, there are no wikipedia pages on Ontarians and Victorians (redirect to Victorian era) because the regional identity is unofficial, it is not stated in documents for its informal character and because generally no one identifies by a regional Identity. There are examples where by political will the regional identity is made formal: In the Bavaria region there is an official census of Bavarians allong with official criteria of the Bavarian status. There is no such thing for the Regional Macedonian Identity, so its not clear what do we intend by Regional Macedonian Identity, is it a question of residence? example immigrants have or have not this Regional Macedonian Identity? Is it a question of beeing simply present in the area, so even tourists in the Macedonia Region are Macedonians by regional identity? How can we talk about this Identity in numbers when there was no official census? etc. Its clear that the Regional Macedonian Identity, not supported by documented official evidence remains unofficial. Dont get me wrong its not that I intend to diminish the significance or delete the content of the Regional Macedonian Identity, still given that there are no official documents about it, we should review its "dominance" in the article, fair enough, no? Alex Makedon (talk) 16:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

No. The Greek census doesn't record a Greek etchnicity either. Does that mean there are no etchnic Greeks in Greece? The Macedonian identity is expressed in a multitude of different ways, and doesn't need to be "proven", whether "censually", as your compatriot User:Toci would say, or otherwise. Do you really want us to start citing instances of the word Macedonian as an expression of regional identity in Greek texts prior to the Balkan Wars? How far back do you want us to go? Even if we restrict ourselves to modern times, the Greek Macedonian identity predates the Slav or etchnic "Macedonian" one by at least a century. Perhaps you will better understand the absurdity of your argument if I turn it back onto you. Does the fact that no census or "official document" recorded your etchnicity before the 1940s mean that you didn't exist before then? Using your logic, I could easily argue that - and many Greeks do as a matter of fact - but it's irrelevant to the objective fact of the existence of a group calling itself "Macedonian" in a national sense today. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 17:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

You went off topic talking about Greek etchnicity census system,(you ment ethnicity i hope) Macedonian history, Greek history and discussions over what identity "was the first". The topics you opened are very interesting and we should continue this kind of discussions not here but on some forum. Even if off topic by your post its clear that you agree that the Regional Macedonian Identity is unofficial. Yes, even if unofficial, undocumented and not "proven" it exists, no one clames anything different (its the fourth time i repeat this). Still, we agree that this identity is unofficial and undocumented and as such we cannot keep its dominance in the article. Alex Makedon (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

What's this nonsense about an "undocumented" or "not proven" Macedonian (Greek) regional indentity? H. Poulton (1995, 2000), Victor Roudometof (2000), L. M. Danforth (1994, 1995), Bain Attwood, John Arnold (1992 and National Book Council, Australia, 1993), Dimitŭr Konstantinov Kosev, Voin Bozhinov, L. Panayotov (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, Bulgarian Language Institute, 1978), I. H. Burnley (The Social Environment: A Population and Social Geography of Australia, 1976) Mikhail Voĭnov, Dimitŭr Konstantinov Kosev, Khristo Angelov Khristov (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, 1969) Edward Seymour Forster, Douglas Dakin (1960), Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1947, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (1930, 1948), Edward Seymour Forster (1946), Fanny Janet Sandison Blunt (1918), The New Werner Twentieth Century Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (Ancient, Byzantine and Modern periods, 1907). Of course there are many other for the 21st, 20th, 19th and not only centuries. --157.228.x.x (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

few simple questions:

• Is there a census on the regional Macedonian identity?
• Are there official criteria of having a regional Macedonian identity?
• Is there any official goverment or international organization document referring to a population by this regional Macedonian identity?
• Is there any identification document where this kind of identity is stated

If yes plz post them. (p.s. there are many books on Atlantians too, is that identity official also?)Alex Makedon (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

This is becoming beyond ridiculous. There isn’t any "census" for the ‘original’ Macedonians either i.e. the ancient Macedonians, who apparently gave their name to the land (not the other way around), should we exclude them from this article? The Macedonians (Greek) as a regional group within the Greek ethnos is well documented. --157.228.x.x (talk) 20:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Previous version

As for all the rest of nonsense you are arguing about in the edit summary box. I support the previous version (as it was standing before your intervention). I've tried to accommodate you and provide reliable references and thorough explanations for this one but apparently I came across the following "powerful" arguments; hence, with regards to:

1. Bolding alternative names once: "unproper bold use for unimportant aspects of the article's topic"with regards the most pertinent terminology of this article i.e. the ethno- linguistic attribution of the contested identities of the said groups. In most respects these terms are the prevailing force behind this article, thus they are anything but “unimportant aspects” of this article.
2. " regional group of diaspora comunities? its unclear and irrelevant information"

There are various studies that, explicitly, refer to Greek Macedonians (or Macedonian Greeks) that migrated, at various stages and time periods to countries as the U.S.A., Canada, Australia and elsewhere. Many of these migrants and their descendants still carry this ethnic and regional identity within their present communities as illustrated in the works of the anthropologist L. M. Danforth (The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1997) or the sociologist I. H. Burnley (The Social Environment: A Population and Social Geography of Australia, 1976). Simply put there is a group of people of Greek descent, carrying this ethno (Greek)-regional (Macedonian) identity as long as that of their adopted countries i.e. Australian in this case. --157.228.x.x (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hear hear. If "Alex Makedon" (we love our Hellenic names, don't we?) agrees that the (Greek) Macedonians exist, then he must also be aware of the fact that they outnumber the etchnic "Macedonians" in Macedonia by almost 2 to 1. That alone is enough to dismiss his argument that they deserve any less prominence in this article. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that and in fact using the truly objective criterion of population for ranking (and not the joke arguments above), the order should be from top to bottom, including the diaspora: inhabitants of Macedonia (region) (5 mil.), Greek Macedonians (4-4.5mil), inhabitants of Macedonia (Greece) (2.5mil), ethnic Macedonians (2-2.5mil), inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia (2mil).--   Avg    12:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Numbers aren't the point. It's what is meant when the term is used in English. Both of you yourselves complain that your non-Greek friends always use "Macedonian" in reference to the ethnic group and/or the inhabitants of the country. So when someone searches for "Macedonian" in English on the English Wikipedia, they're most likely not referring to anything that you two say you are. Georgian has a much stronger case for giving the regional identity higher "priority", and yet it doesn't. BalkanFever 12:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've trained my friends to tow the party line, actually. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

So can we revert to the version of the article before "Alex Macedon" started messing with it?--Avg (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

"Messing with it".. before the edits the article was an unclear disorganized (dis)information, i organized the same information having an eye on similar pages German, American etc. If you want to improve the article please do so. Alex Makedon (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You f*ed it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.70.240.32 (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you post some official numbers about the Regional Greek Macedonian Identity plz. Under Macedonians (Greek) we have the Karamanlis statement about the 2,5 million inhabitants of the Greek region, here above we see numbers as high as "4,5 million" in Greece and "another 5 million abroad". To say it simple, it was pretty hard to fit in a regional identity that is: unofficial, undeclared (no census) and not stated in any ID documents, not to mention now that we want to extend this local regional identity to the migrants abroad. With no official criteria, census numbers and official documents we might as well attribute the Regional Macedonian Identity to all of the 6.5 billion inhabitants of the earth Alex Makedon (talk) 09:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reason to keep both Macedonian Greeks and Greek Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians? Example: is there a difference in the connotation of the terms Macedonian Greeks and Greek Macedonians or they are basicly the same thing? Alex Makedon (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Alex Makedon" said: "1. state evidence that Macedonian Slavs or Macedonian Greeks are prominent, pertinent alternative names commony used. 2.state evidence that they are not the same (Macedonian Greek=Greek Macedonians.)"

I'dont even know why I bother with such lame "arguments" and most importantly such trollish behaviour. The style is identical with one-purpose, partisan, and dare I say (deliberately ?) clueless accounts (or malicious sockpuppets) as User:Realtycoon, User:Ancientworld, User:History753, User:Libraryboys and many, many other. Anyway, "Slav Macedonians" in H. Poulton, 2000 (Who are the Macedonians?, p. 2, 19 and elsewhere), see other referencies in the relevant literature in google books, or google scholar e.g. "Macedonian Slavs". Repeat the process for the Macedonian Greeks or Greek Macedonians. Oh, and Macedonian Greeks = Greek Macedonians, Slav Macedonians= Macedonian Slavs, that's the whole point! They are alternative names of the same concept i.e. the two groups of people we are trying to define here. Regards, Captain obvious 11:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)