Talk:Mahalo

Proposed deletion history

This page was proposed for deletion by Jayden54 (talk · contribs) on 30 November 2006 with the comment:
This article offers nothing more than a dictionary definition of the term Mahalo, which is against Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia is not a dictionary).
It was contested by Fg2 (talk · contribs) on 2006-12-02 with the comment:
Article contains two things that are not dictionary definitions.

This page was proposed for deletion by Jerzy (talk · contribs) on 13 March 2011 with the comment:
WP:NAD, and while the lead-section text hints at conditions that might make an article notable (as an example of a socially recognized concept lacking a corresponding word), that source of notability, if explicitly stated would be OR and supported, in the spirit of the quack-Hopi-linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf, only by inadmissible references, apparently attributable to amateur anthropologists & amateur linguists. In the other section, the uncategorized dump job list of "Pop culture" refs is useless trivia, not even distinguishing use in a setting-specific cultural context from idiosyncratic or show-off mannerisms, and probably should be completely removed even if the lead section managed to be improved to the point of establishing notability.
It was contested by Arxiloxos (talk · contribs) on 2011-03-13 with the comment:
Better to have this complex deletion argument considered at AfD, also giving editors chance to consider other grounds to keep.

Delete or change[edit]

This page should either be deleted or changed. It provides two inconsistent etymologies. The latter of which is almost certainly not true. The "they didn't have a word for gratitude" story (similar to the one told about the Japanese) is racist and stunningly stupid. Is it conceivable that an entire race of people would not have a word for one of the most basic human emotions? This needs to be changed immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnDavidBurgess (talk • contribs) 03:24, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the article could be improved. But if you read Hawaiian history, you will find many reliable visitors who say that though the Hawaiians were extremely gracious, hospitable, and grateful, they did not have the term "thank you." For example, The Hawaiian Journal of John B. Whitman: An Account of the Sandwich Islands 1813-1815, Isabella Bird's Six Months in the Sandwich Islands (1873) and Archibald Campbell's account of his time here, A voyage round the world, from 1806 to 1812 : in which Japan, Kamschatka, the Aleutian Islands, and the Sandwich Islands were visited; including a narrative of the author's shipwreck on the Island of Sannack, and his subsequent wreck in the ship's long-boat : with an account of the present state of the Sandwich Islands, and a vocabulary of their language.Makana Chai (talk) 06:58, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nor are the etymologies inconsistent. It is possible that post-contact, the Hawaiians adopted/adapted masalo.Makana Chai (talk) 07:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The wording in the description of the two etymologies does seem inconsistent. The first etymology references that Elbert and Pukui trace the word to PPN masalo. But the second etymology declares that the word is, in fact, one developed post-contact. If this is the case, a transition word might work better, such as 'however.' I have difficulty believing that Hawaiians adopted/adapted masalo from another Polynesian language after contact with Europeans. I'm not aware of any other genuine Polynesian words being introduced into the language in this manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzsnow3ater (talk • contribs) 09:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you do some research to find out what is right? Makana Chai (talk) 16:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I will do that. In the mean time, I will clear up the wording to show that there are two contrasting etymologies. I have done a short review of earlier writings from the 1830s and Andrew's later dictionary. Currently, I believe that the word mahalo was indeed an existing word in the Hawaiian language. Perhaps the original meaning meant 'admire,' and it was used to mean 'thank you' post contact. Both 'thank' and 'admire' are listed under the word mahalo in the Elbert and Pukui dictionary, while only 'admire' is in Alexander's. The writings from the 1830s seem to reflect this usage as well. --Zzsnow3ater (talk) 07:55, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After reading over the entries in both Elbert and Pukui's Hawaiian Dictionary and Alexander's dictionary, newspapers from 1830, and the current sources cited in the article suggesting that Hawaiian had no word for 'thanks' or 'gratitude,' I believe that nothing shows that the word mahalo itself is not an original Hawaiian word. Elbert and Pukui traced it back to PEP masalo (interestingly, the first definition is traced to PPN and the second to PEP at the date of the writing). Both Elbert and Pukui's dictionary and Alexander's includes the word mahalo. The only difference is that in the Alexander's, the word is used to mean 'admire,' while in Elbert and Pukui's, it is used to mean 'admire' and 'thanks.' It would be reasonable to assume that the word did indeed exist but took on an extra meaning of 'thanks' or 'gratitude' post contact, as Alexander and early visitors claimed there was none. --Zzsnow3ater (talk) 07:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Do you read 'olelo Hawai'i? It would be great if this could be tracked somehow through the newspapers. Another thought -- there is at least one turn of the century dictionary (Parker) and maybe some others. It would be interesting to see how mahalo fares in them. I think Judd had his own dictionary. Also, Pukui has "vocabulary cards" in the Bishop Museum Archives, with some words and meanings that didn't make it into the dictionary. I can't check it out, but it would be wonderful if someone else could. And then write an article for Hawaiian Journal of History so we can cite it :-) Makana Chai (talk) 18:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a dictionary definition?[edit]

Is this article going to be expanded by anyone soon or is it going to stay like it is, i.e. a dictionary definition and nothing more? If there's nothing more to say about this subject, we should consider deleting this article, since Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Just a thought. Jayden54 19:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the {{prod}} tag to the article, which means it'll be deleted in 5 days if no-one objects. Let me know (here or on my user talk) if you have any objections. Jayden54 11:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Mahalo is one of those words that have additional meaning beyond a dictionary definition--like [aloha]. I will try and build it out. JasonCalacanis 17:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, since as I understand it, it means 'May you be in Divine breath'...DannyBoy2k 12:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think Mahalo.com is a noteworthy new product that perhaps should be listed on this page, or be part of disambiguation on this page. Of course, I'm a very interested party (i.e. the founder and CEO!. 76.167.229.57 20:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine, as long as the Mahalo.com article doesn't get deleted for lack of notability. I've left a message explaining how to help strengthen the article at Talk:Mahalo.com. Jehochman ^Talk 22:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't "Mahalo" more of a concept than a simple translation to the English "Thank you"? For instance, I do not think Mahalo would be a word used to say thank you to someone you did not have a warm gratitude for. Conversly, in English we say Thank You to people whom we think are jerks. - Luck91, Mahalo :-)

Aloha & Mahalo[edit]

Expand this article:

Aloha & Mahalo[1]

Pronounced: ah loh' hah & mah hah' loh

If you learn just two words in Hawaiian, learn these. They are two of the most important words in the Hawaiian language, representing paramount Hawaiian values.

In Hawaiian thinking, words have mana [pronounced: mah' nah], meaning spiritual or divine power, and aloha and mahalo are among the most sacred and powerful.

Say them often as they can be life-transforming and -enhancing. Be careful to use them ONLY if you truly feel mahalo or aloha within. Do not exploit these words for personal gain, and neither cheapen, nor trivialize their use by verbalizing them carelessly or without sincerity.

Aloha and mahalo are ineffable, indescribable, and undefinable with words alone; to be understood, they must be experienced.

Deeper meaning and sacredness is hinted at by the root words of these words. Linguists differ in their opinions as to the exact meanings and origins, but this is what was told to me by my kupuna (elder):

On a spiritual level, aloha is an invocation of the Divine and mahalo is a Divine blessing. Both are acknowledgments of the Divinity that dwells within and without.

Aloha [Alo = presence, front, face] + [hâ = breath] "The presence of (Divine) Breath."

Mahalo [Ma = In] + [hâ = breath] + [alo = presence, front, face] "(May you be) in (Divine) Breath."

Think of them as single-word blessings or prayers.

The following are dictionary definitions using English words, which are approximate translations, at best:*

   Aloha. 1. Aloha, love, affection, compassion, mercy, sympathy, pity, kindness, sentiment, grace, charity; greeting, salutation, regards; sweetheart, lover, lover, loved one; beloved, loving, kind, compassionate, charitable, lovable; to love, be fond of; to show kindness, mercy, pity, charity, affection; to venerate; to remember with affection; to greet, to hail. Greetings! Hello! Good-by! Farewell! Alas!

             o Aloha `oe!

               [ah loh' hah oe!]
               May you be loved or greeted!
               Farewell or greetings to one person.

             o Aloha kâua!
               [ah loh' hah KAH'oo (w)ah!]
               May there be friendship or love between us!
               Greetings to you and me!

             o Aloha kâkou!
               [ah loh' hah KAH' kou!]
               same as above, but to more than one person.

             o Ke aloha nô!
               [ah loh hah NOH']
               Aloha indeed!

             o Aloha!

               [ Ah loh' hah!]
               Greetings!"

   "Mahalo. 1. Thanks, gratitude; to thank.

             o Mahalo nui loa
               .
               [mah hah' loh noo'(w)ee loh'(w)ah]
               Thanks very much.

             o `Ôlelo mahalo
               [OH' leh loh mah hah' loh]
               compliment

             o Mahalo â nui

               [mah hah' loh (W)AH' noo'(w)ee]
               Thanks very much.

   2. Admiration, praise, esteem, regards, respects; to admire, praise, appreciate.

             o `O wau nô me ka mahalo,
               [oh vau NOH' meh kah mah hah'loh]
               I am, [yours] respectfully,

             o Ka mea i mahalo `ia, Laki
               [kah meh'(y)ah ee mah hah'loh ee'(y)ah, lah' kee]
               The esteemed Laki."

Source: Pukui, Mary Kawena & Elbert, Samuel H., HAWAIIAN DICTIONARY, University of Hawai`i Press, Honolulu, 1986.

One of the most frequently requested translations is:

Aloha au iâ `oe. [ah loh' hah vau' ee (Y)AH' oe] I love you.

Ke aloha nô me ka mahalo kâua! Aloha indeed with mahalo to you and me!

The Hawaiian Language: Ka `Ôlelo Hawai`i URL: http://hawaiianlanguage.com

It appears that this is a special word that does deserve an article, consisting of more than a definition. -96.233.24.142 (talk) 00:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

Mahalo is a likely reflex of Proto-East-Polynesian *masalo, whereas aloha is from Proto-Polynesian *qalofa. Folk etymologies need to be kept out of the article. See Elbert 1953 Southwestern Journal of Anthropology article "Internal Relationships of Polynesian Languages and Dialects". I will also look up POLLEX when I get a chance to clarify this further. Kahuroa (talk) 21:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pollex reconstructs it as Proto-Polynesian *masalo think and below that to:

(1) Proto-Nuclear-Polynesian *masalo with the reconstructed meaning be astonished at, admire. Cognates include Māori māharo, mīharo to wonder at, admire; Marquesan maha`o to praise; admirable, astonishing; Rapanui maharo admire, admirable; glorify, flatter; astonish, astound; eulogy, boasting.

Also obviously related are Samoan masalo think; suspicion, doubt; Takuu māsaro feel an emotion, feel sorry, happy or thankful; Tikopian masaro jealousy; Tongan mahalo, think, surmise, presume, suspect.

So the linguistic evidence is that mahalo and aloha have independent origins and were never the same. They are even more distinct the further you go back, eg at Proto-Polynesian they are *masalo and *qalofa.

By the way, the folk etymologies mentioned in the post above (such as Aloha [Alo = presence, front, face] + [hâ = breath] "The presence of (Divine) Breath." and Mahalo [Ma = In] + [hâ = breath] + [alo = presence, front, face] "(May you be) in (Divine) Breath" are unfortunately rearing their heads all over Polynesia, and while they always sound very spiritual and deep, do not stand up to scrutiny. Kahuroa (talk) 04:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mahalo, Kahuroa for this. And yes we need to keep out these seemingly deep spiritual but unreferenced meanings. Makana Chai (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see them interpretations according to (modern) Hawaiian/Polynesian cultural understandings and affirmations of the kapu and mana of a word, rather than etymologies. BTW we get the exact same thing here with Māori words, aro = presence = divine presence, hā = breath = divine breath, etc. I hate to be logical about this. If we had a valid source we could refer to them. Kahuroa (talk) 21:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion again[edit]

I can see both sides, but since it has been discussed before, hardly non-controversial. The "pop" references should just go away, unless a source can be found. It is the second most used word of Hawaiian origin in use (after Aloha), but it certainly be original research without a source to say that. The other sources are some of the most respected scholars of the Hawaiian language, so calling them "quacks" is a bit offensive. A compromise would be to merge the sourced info into the Hawaiian language article, but merges have gotten me in trouble before so will let others fight it out. There is also a List of English words of Hawaiian origin which links to the disambig page instead of here. The Mahalo entry in the list is unsourced and dubious too for that matter. W Nowicki (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the latter seems like the best solution. The article is simply a dictionary entry and unlike "aloha", I don't see that there is much more to add to it. The discussion above about the etymology and history is kind of interesting but still more appropriate for a dictionary. KarlM (talk) 22:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re the derivation from PPN etc, the Polynesian Lexicon Project Online derives it with the meaning Think about, consider from Central Pacific (ie, wider than just Polynesian, ie because it includes the non-Polynesian language Rotuman, but if it were shown to be a loanword from PN into Rotuman it would still be reconstructible to PPN) - see masalo.A. It's reconstructed with the derived meaning Be astonished at, admire for Nuclear Polynesian masalo.B. "I admire what you just did" and "Thank you for what you just did" are a hair's breadth away from each other. Not that we should be surprised that Hawaiian had no word for 'Thank You". Kahuroa (talk) 06:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't there any discussion on the proposal to delete? One person objected and that erased the proposal, but it seems like everyone who is contributing thinks it should go. KarlM (talk) 07:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can take this to AfD if you think that's appropriate. I de-prodded this because, among other things:

1. It had already been prodded and de-prodded once before, so it is not eligible to be prodded again, per WP:DEPROD;

2. As reflected in earlier sections of this talk page, a number of editors, over time, have expressed their opinion that this word is significant enough, and there's enough to say about it, that the article deserves to be kept;

3. The article in its current state contains more than just pure dictionary content;

4. It is one of the most significant Hawaiian loan words to English and there may be more content out there about its use, and potentially about "mahalo" as a concept or social construct as opposed to just a word.

So I would !vote to keep this at an AfD, but reasonable minds may certainly differ.--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would love to see someone make this article worthwhile, but in its current incarnation, I support deletion. Makana Chai (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge somewhere?[edit]

Mahalo is a fairly ordinary word, so I don't see it as particularly notable. On the other hand, there is a bit to say about it (currently two paragraphs with four sources), so probably it shouldn't really be deleted. Obviously, though, at least the two editors who proposed deletion would disagree with this sentiment.

Could this page be merged somewhere? Hawaiian language is already long-ish and does not include a section on vocabulary. Aloha is a vaguely related word (both are used as polite expressions), but only vaguely. ~~Wiktionary has a wikt:list of Hawaiian words,~~ but there would no doubt be objections to hosting a simple list on Wikipedia. So where could this word go? Or should it just stay where it is? Cnilep (talk) 04:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. Not sure if it was deleted, or I was just mistaken about its existence. Cnilep (talk) 22:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move; the disambiguation page will go to Mahalo (disambiguation). Cúchullain ^t/c 19:06, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mahalo (word) → Mahalo – word itself should be primary Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the nominator moved the disambiguation page form "Mahalo" to Mahalo (disambiguation) just before nominating this move, so this is effectively a multimove request and should it fail, the disambiguation page should be restored to the primary location. -- 65.92.181.39 (talk) 23:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the malplaced dab; it should remain at Mahalo unless this request is successful. --BDD (talk) 21:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I agree the word is the most likely sought topic for this term. --B2C 05:36, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.