Talk:Mandatory Palestine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Palestine (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Jewish history (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Israel (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject United Kingdom (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Former countries (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 
Note icon
An editor has requested that a coat of arms image be added to this article and placed within the infobox.
WikiProject International relations / law (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia.
If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject International law (marked as High-importance).
 

Incorrect Map[edit]

The map associated with the article is incorrect, since it shows only the part of the British Mandate west of the Jordan River. It should be changed to a map showing the full Palestine, like this one [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.92.125 (talk) 07:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The reason that map is not shown is that there was no region of that shape and name at the time of the San Remo conference or any later time. Zerotalk 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
According to the San Remo Conference wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference), there were 3 mandates granted: 1) Syria. 2) Mesopotamia (Iraq), and 3) Palestine. Unless you are claiming that Transjordan was somehow forgotten, to say that "there was no region of that shape and name" is dishonest in the extreme. Given that the Syrian mandate went to France, and the Mesopotamian mandate to the UK, the Mandate of Palestine was essentially the UK zone south of the French zone, apart from Mesopotamia. Unless you want to claim Transjordan as part of Mesopotamia rather than Palestine - and every map of the era included areas east of the Jordan as part of Palestine, you are in error. The best case you can make is that the far eastern bulge of Transjordan was never considered part of Palestine, but then neither was Cisjordan south of Beersheba, yet that is included as part of the Mandate because everybody knows the Palestinian Mandate was Levant-Syria=Palestine. This map is utterly incorrect. ebrawer (talk) 05:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I stand by what I wrote, and you are making the mistake of assuming Transjordan had to belong to some mandate at all. Zerotalk 06:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Transjordan belonged to the mandate. Just read the text of the mandate [2]:
ARTICLE 25.In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.
Now what territories would that be east of the Jordan, if not Transjordan? The UK decided on the basis of this article to not allow a Jewish state east of the Jordan because of the "local conditions".79.231.80.183 (talk) 14:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree, we should switch to the other map. The mandate included Jordan in 1920 and then was given to the Hasemites in 1922. --monochrome_monitor 23:14, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Your statement "The mandate included Jordan in 1920" is untrue. Please read British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) and all the previous discussion on this talk page, before commenting further. Oncenawhile (talk) 06:31, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I also agree. I have here with me some old encyclopaedias (an edition of the Britannica from the 80s, and two copies of MS Encarta) and they all point out that the British Mandate of Palestine included Transjordan. Seems to me that the user is letting his personal opinion/bias distort the veracity of this article. --Pinnecco (talk) 20:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Please read British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument). Pluto2012 (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I second what Pluto has written: there is a difference between the territory covered by the legal instrument known as the 'Mandate for Palestine' and the subject of this article, Palestine during the British mandate. You might like to look back through the archives of this talkpage, to read the previous discussions about the map, too.     ←   ZScarpia   11:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I looked at the legal instrument and it mentions the exclusion of Transjordan in 1922 (I thought it was 1920). It should be included on the map saying "until 1922" or something of the sort. --monochrome_monitor 23:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC) - http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandato_Brit%C3%A2nico_da_Palestina
You're proposing to display a map of something at a date when it didn't have formal borders? Exactly what borders are you going to show? The area under British occupation? But, the area which came to be known as Transjordan wasn't under British occupation at the time.     ←   ZScarpia   00:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

This is pretty nuts. The Mandate included what is now Jordan. The British installed the Hashemites there after they were ejected from Arabia by the Saudis. The map should reflect the full and proper extent of the Mandate.Woodahbase (talk) 02:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The territory covered by the League of Nations Mandate included what is now referred to as Mandatory Palestine and what is now called Jordan. The subject of this article is Mandatory Palestine only, not the whole territory covered by the Mandate. King Abdullah became king of Transjordan in 1921. The Saudis displaced King Hussein from the Hejaz in 1924.     ←   ZScarpia   03:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Land ownership by type[edit]

The table titled "Land ownership of Palestine (in square kilometres) on 1 April 1943" is misleading. It compares Jewish owned lands with Arab+Non-Jewish owned lands but seems to include all the public / government owned lands under the column of "Arab / non-Jewish ownership". That this is so, is quite evident from the following facts:

1. The total territory of Mandatory Palestine was 26,625.6 km2, according to the Land Ownership section in the article.

2. According to the table in question, the total territory owned by Arabs and non-Jews in 1943 was 24,670.46 km2. Basically the entire territory minus the lands owned by Jews and possibly the large water bodies - the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee.

3. The majority of the territory of Mandatory Palestine was in fact public / government owned. I could not find a direct source for this claim, but from looking at the "Land ownership of Palestine in 1945 by district" table and the map on which it was based, it appears that 85% of the Beersheba sub-district was public / government owned. The Beersheba sub-district comprised almost the entire Negev desert, which in turn comprised the majority of Mandatory Palestine's territory. Therefore, it is quite likely that the majority of the territory in Mandatory Palestine was public / government owned, especially when bringing into consideration the additional government owned land outside the Beersheba district.

Since the majority of the 26,625.6 km2 territory of Mandatory Palestine was public / government owned, it is impossible that "Arab / non-Jewish ownership" could comprise 24,670.46 km2, unless "non-Jewish ownership" includes public / government owned. If the "Arab / non-Jewish ownership" column doesn't include government ownership, than the table is obviously erroneous. If it does include it, than the table is very misleading, since it treats Arabs, non-Jews and the British mandatory government a homogeneous group of land owners. One could obviously create a similar table, this time lumping Jewish and government ownership together, and thus showing that Arabs owned a minority share of the lands.

The table in question seems to be taken without reference from a Palestinian website with a clear political agenda: Palestine Remembered That is why I believe it is not accidentally inaccurate but intentionally misleading, in order to make the Arab share in land ownership appear larger than it actually was and the Jewish share smaller.

In light of this, and unless thereare any suggestions for a source that will allow us to correct this misleading table and/or any objections, I will delete the table and it's subsection "Land ownership by type". Yunis (talk) 17:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The source for the map on Palestine remembered is : A Survey of Palestine prepared by the British Mandate for the UN, p. 566.The map also appears on the UN website. Not seeing a problem with it myself.Your claims for most of the land being government owned is not true either. GGranddad (talk) 17:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a source for the table. Unfortunately, the issue remains, even though the table did appear in a certain UN report. It lumps together public / government owned land with Arab owned land, despite the two being distinct categories. I could find no hint in the 1946 Survey of Palestine as to why is the table arranged in this fashion. As I pointed out, we could just as well present a table lumping together government owned and Jewish owned land, making the Jewish owned land the majority of the total land area. Hence this table should no be considered as information but as disinformation in the context of this article, and if an explanation for the lumping together of government and Arab owned lands cannot be given, it should be removed. Yunis (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Why delete it when you can just explain the way the table categories are defined in the introductory sentence? That's what the UN did, so surely that's good enough for us. Oncenawhile (talk) 02:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
We can't just delete properly sourced content because we think that there is something wrong with it. That would violate WP:NOR. But in any case there is less wrong with it than you think. The bulk of the land (excluding the Negev) was the village land of Arab villages. In some sense it was public land because much of it was held under the Ottoman system of indefinite lease, but just to call it state land without qualification would be a serious distortion. It was land on which Arabs had a legal right to long-term possession. Probably that is why on p563 it says "land held by Arabs" rather than "land owned by Arabs". The "other non-Jews" in the table caption is meant to include the small number of other categories of owners and does not include "public fixed assets" (as it says on page 563). Zerotalk 02:56, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Section: Termination of the Mandate[edit]

The section has paramilitary Zionists organisations beginning to clear Arab communities at the same time as the State of Israel was declared (that is, at the termination of the Mandate). In fact, those organisations were actively clearing Arab communities from outside the area designated for a Jewish State in the Partition Plan even before the end of the Mandate in places like Jaffa.     ←   ZScarpia   02:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes; I believe much of these events are covered in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, but per the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_34#Is_Ilan_Pappe_a_reliable_source? caution must be taken when using that work. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
The Zionist paramilitary organisations started clearing Arab communities before the end of the mandate. This occured both inside the area allocated to the Jewish State by the Partition Plan (such as in the cities of Beisean, Safed, Haifa, Tiberiade and the coastal plain and Eastern Galilee) and outside that area (such as in the cities of Jerusalem, Jaffa and Acre and in Western Galilee and along the Jerusalem road). This is decribed in the 1948 Palestinian exodus but there are too many information. The best source for this is Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Nb: at the contrary of what the articles states, the Haganah didn't take distance with these operations but was the main actor of these operation with the Palmach. IZL only operated at the time at Jaffa and Jerusalem Pluto2012 (talk) 08:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I fail to see how mentioning the Partition plan in relation to the areas which had violent outbursts at that time is relevant at all, since the plan was rejected by the Arab leaders and hence never had any basis that someone needs to act according to it with the borders it suggested. Yuvn86 (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Daoxan's comments on the FAQ[edit]

An FAQ response for those editors who would like to remove "Transjordan" from the article or map on Mandatory Palestine (You relying solely on Wikipedia articles, that can be written by people who dont understand law, or has reason to ignore this part of history or articles that support what you say) - I attach the broader vision:

The Mandate for Palestine is not just what was meant for the Jewish national state, but also the definition of the territories under mandate and it's objectives.

The mandat for Palestine in Princeton Law School website:https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/British_Mandate_of_Palestine.htm https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/British_Mandate_of_Palestine.html The first draft of 1920 of the mandat for Palestine was the Covenant of the League of Nations where the whole area that was called "Palestin"e at that time, referred to the whole are of Palestine and Jordan. Only in 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory of Palestine into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from Hijaz Saudi Arabia. Transjordan was exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home. https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/British_Mandate_of_Palestine.html

The mandat for Palestine in Yale law school websitehttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp - The word Muslim / Islam is not mentioned once The word Arab is mentioned 4 times The word Jew is mentioned 15 times "the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;" (Israel's Declaration of Independence declared it in the exact same way: "THE STATE OF ISRAEL will... be based on freedom]], justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.)

Comments to the FAQ below:

  • British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)#Transjordan & Cairo Conference - Just support what was said above, the British awarded Transjordan self-control in 1922, as Transjordan was excluded from the original Palestine Mandate of 1920 territory (that was intended for the jewish home). The British fixed legally and by law, the promisings for the territory that they made to both sides. The Arab leaders were promised the whole region of the Middle East and Palestine, but Palestine was also promised to the Jews. So they did a very smart thing, they changed the definition of the territory of Palestine by law and in the maps, and cuted a part of the original mandat for Palestine off - Transjordan. Thinking that they have solved the problem, the Jews were left with 33% of Palestine and the Arabs with 77% of the original land.
  • Explanation from Bernard Wasserstein - The begining support the above. the second part is oral promise, therefore it is not valid or binding by the British law. Winston Churchill was known for his false promises, that he gave in order to get what he wanted/need (like most politicians). At that time he needed the Arabs support for the war (or at list that they would not disturbed by resistance) - At that time the arabs that were under the role of britain were many and they could really cause harm to it. That was also the reason why jews were forbidden from going to Palestina at that time; the Arabs were against it, Britain was needed for their help (or lack of causing problems), so they acted against their own laws and band the Jews from Immigrating to palestine. See Also: Churchill White Paper, Passfield white paper, White Paper of 1939. There is no fear of Jabotinsky's theory on the Jewish right to the territory of Transjordan, the British were smart enough and changed the definition of the mandat for Palestine, it could be true only before 1922.

Again it's support the thing that was mentioned above, Transjordan was added to the mandatory area under britain (after changing the definition in the british law and maps)

  • Gideon Biger - Let's start with it that he's not a lawyer and don't realy understand the legal nuances. Then it is true that the exact borders of the Mandat of Palestine weren't precisely defined (like all the other Mandats that were given at that time) but (all of them) had general borders, the general borders of the Mandate for Palestine were Transjordan of today and Palestine. Again he's talking possible outcomes, not actually decisions, So it is not relevant to determine the actual areas.
  • Read it, what was said above answers it, not relevant.
The fact that the Covenant of the League of Nations does not mention Jews, or a Jewish homeland, or even Palestine by name, makes claims like "The first draft of 1920 of the mandat for Palestine was the Covenant of the League of Nations" into nonsense. The fact that Article 22 actually contradicts the Palestine mandate that was written later is well known and much written about. The rest of this is no better. Zerotalk 14:00, 23 January 2015 (UTC)