Talk:Mandatory Palestine

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Article mislead information[edit]

Hey everyone, here some issues need your attention:

1) |country = Palestine there was no country in the geographicael area called mandatory palestine, so it should remove or to be changed

2) the article is not about "mandatory palestinee" and not about the term "palestine" alone - therefore is there no need to add the name "palestine" in different languages but to add the term "mandatory palestine" in different language

3) mandatory palestine main goal was the establishment in Palestine or Eretz Israel "a national home for the Jewish people in its homeland".[1]

all of this i fixed and done but been reverted, please your help to fix the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by roniblr (talkcontribs)

(1) Please read country. You are probably confusing "country" with "independent state" but that is not the same thing. (2) The other languages should state the common name in that language of the entity called Mandatory Palestine, even if that common name was "Palestine". (3) A national home for the Jewish people was one of the aims of the mandate but stating it as the main aim is an opinion and not a fact. Zerotalk 14:10, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
As for the Mandate goal, it is stated clearly :"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.".[ article 2 (and in the header), http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2FCA2C68106F11AB05256BCF007BF3CB ].
The Arab community is not specifically mentioned at all. The word ARAB appears 4 times: one , "Arabia" as the former name of previous Arab territories under Turkish control, and 3 more times as ARABIC, the language.
It seems that the only purpose of the mandate is establishment of a Jewish national home. While I understand that the Arabs were deeply disappointed, this is a fact.
As such, this goal should appear in the leader, in my opinion. Ykantor (talk) 14:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
"It seems that the only purpose of the mandate is establishment of a Jewish national home." In the extract on the responsibilities of the Mandatory you quoted, I, personally, count three "goals", the second of which is the "development of self-governing institutions" and the last of which is "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion." I think that Zero was making a point about the inadmissibility of reading things into sources which they don't state.     ←   ZScarpia   22:34, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
If the definition of a goal is extended, then this is a goal too: "The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that the judicial system established in Palestine shall assure to foreigners, as well as to natives, a complete guarantee of their rights". How do we know what is a goal and what is a secondary demand? . Anyway, it is better to avoid Philology. So, would you accept this slight modification:"It seems that the main purpose of the mandate is establishment of a Jewish national home." ? Ykantor (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Right, and I'll also note that attempting to gauge the "main goal" from the mandate document alone is an abuse of WP:PRIMARY. The question is actually a complex one that many historians have written about. The motivations of great powers are not necessarily accurately presented in their public documents. Also, other sources like the Churchill White Paper, which was an official statement of British policy from the same time-frame, attempted to play down the Jewish homeland aspect. We should describe these things in the article, but we shouldn't present our own interpretations as fact. Zerotalk 03:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It seems as a clear one. I wonder what was the complex issue found by those historians. Will you please refer to such a source?
  • The Churchill White Paper is not legally authorized by the league of nations. It is a component in the British application of the Mandate. Anyway, It is oriented to achieve a Jewish home land too.
  • Would you accept that the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland, but the British application has deviated? Ykantor (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
One of the stated aims of the Mandate was the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. More than that is opinion. It is wrong to separate the LofN from British policy. In fact Britain got almost everything it sought from the LofN. You can't ask what the purpose of the Mandate was without asking why Britain conquered Palestine from the Turks, why the Balfour Declaration was issued, and why it was repeated in the Sevres treaty and in the mandate text. All of those things only happened because Britain wanted them to. Nobody forced them and their only problem in the LofN was to placate the French. Theories about what the real purpose was range from British long-term strategic plans for the Middle East to one theory (Mark Levene) that it was all due to British antisemitism. Even if you only look at LofN documents (a mistake), you can't ignore key documents like the Covenant, whose contradictions with the mandate have been argued about ad nauseum. Zerotalk 11:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Nothing is ignored here. According to the legally binding document, the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland, but practically..." and here come all the mentioned agreements and covenants . Would you accept that? Ykantor (talk) 17:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Zero,
Nishidani will never forgive you : ad nauseam, not ad nauseum !
(Unless you bring the khazars article to FA, of course)
Pluto2012 (talk) 17:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Blush, cringe, hanging my head in shame... Zerotalk 00:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Ykantor, no, the claim "the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland" is a certain Zionist viewpoint and cannot be stated as a fact. It also ignores the fact that the Jewish homeland was to be "in Palestine", not comprising all of Palestine, and this distinction was very deliberate. Zerotalk 00:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • zero:"the claim "the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland" is a certain Zionist viewpoint and cannot be stated as a fact". How can you call it "certain Zionist viewpoint" ? it is written in the League of Nations legally binding document?
  • zero:"It also ignores the fact that the Jewish homeland was to be "in Palestine", not comprising all of Palestine". So, we can write: the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland in Palestine, but practically..."
  • zero:"The question is actually a complex one that many historians have written about". I ask again, if you can provide the names of those historians. I have not found anyone who denies the that the Mandate main goal was a Jewish homeland. Ykantor (talk) 07:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to repeat myself. You are doing original research. The mandate text does not say "main purpose" anywhere. I already explained my other points. Zerotalk 13:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
About the mandate document, why are you ignoring the first sentence "for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations"? Did you look at Article 22 of the Covenant? Do you see Zionism there? In fact, can you see anything there that is even compatible with Zionism? Regard references, your request is bizarre since practically every book and article on the subject of the origins of the mandates considers the question of motivation. You can find dozens with a simple search. Zerotalk 09:33, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it is more accurate to say that the main purpose of the Palestine Mandate was of broader scope, because the mandated area of Palestine covered three separate territories - Israel, Mesopotamia (today's Iraq)and Transjordan, (today's Jordan). Subsequently, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that its purpose was to enable the progression of these territories to self-determination with the ultimate aim of each proclaiming a sovereign State? Both the [San Remo Agreement] and the legal document styled ["The British Mandate for Palestine"] refer to all three and include the "Transjordan Memorandum". Perhaps some background history might help resolve your argument by reading this paper and this CBN news report. --Intelcap (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Map[edit]

The map associated with the article is incorrect, since it shows only the part of the British Mandate west of the Jordan River. It should be changed to a map showing the full Palestine, like this one [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.92.125 (talk) 07:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The reason that map is not shown is that there was no region of that shape and name at the time of the San Remo conference or any later time. Zerotalk 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
According to the San Remo Conference wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference), there were 3 mandates granted: 1) Syria. 2) Mesopotamia (Iraq), and 3) Palestine. Unless you are claiming that Transjordan was somehow forgotten, to say that "there was no region of that shape and name" is dishonest in the extreme. Given that the Syrian mandate went to France, and the Mesopotamian mandate to the UK, the Mandate of Palestine was essentially the UK zone south of the French zone, apart from Mesopotamia. Unless you want to claim Transjordan as part of Mesopotamia rather than Palestine - and every map of the era included areas east of the Jordan as part of Palestine, you are in error. The best case you can make is that the far eastern bulge of Transjordan was never considered part of Palestine, but then neither was Cisjordan south of Beersheba, yet that is included as part of the Mandate because everybody knows the Palestinian Mandate was Levant-Syria=Palestine. This map is utterly incorrect. ebrawer (talk) 05:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I stand by what I wrote, and you are making the mistake of assuming Transjordan had to belong to some mandate at all. Zerotalk 06:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Transjordan belonged to the mandate. Just read the text of the mandate [2]:
ARTICLE 25.In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.
Now what territories would that be east of the Jordan, if not Transjordan? The UK decided on the basis of this article to not allow a Jewish state east of the Jordan because of the "local conditions".79.231.80.183 (talk) 14:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree, we should switch to the other map. The mandate included Jordan in 1920 and then was given to the Hasemites in 1922. --monochrome_monitor 23:14, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Your statement "The mandate included Jordan in 1920" is untrue. Please read British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) and all the previous discussion on this talk page, before commenting further. Oncenawhile (talk) 06:31, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I also agree. I have here with me some old encyclopaedias (an edition of the Britannica from the 80s, and two copies of MS Encarta) and they all point out that the British Mandate of Palestine included Transjordan. Seems to me that the user is letting his personal opinion/bias distort the veracity of this article. --Pinnecco (talk) 20:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Please read British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument). Pluto2012 (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I second what Pluto has written: there is a difference between the territory covered by the legal instrument known as the 'Mandate for Palestine' and the subject of this article, Palestine during the British mandate. You might like to look back through the archives of this talkpage, to read the previous discussions about the map, too.     ←   ZScarpia   11:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I looked at the legal instrument and it mentions the exclusion of Transjordan in 1922 (I thought it was 1920). It should be included on the map saying "until 1922" or something of the sort. --monochrome_monitor 23:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC) - http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandato_Brit%C3%A2nico_da_Palestina
You're proposing to display a map of something at a date when it didn't have formal borders? Exactly what borders are you going to show? The area under British occupation? But, the area which came to be known as Transjordan wasn't under British occupation at the time.     ←   ZScarpia   00:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Balfour Declaration and Transjordan[edit]

I feel like this article starts at 1948 when it should really start after WWI. Why not talk about the Balfour declaration? The mandate was originally meant for Jews including both Transjordan and Palestine, in 1922 Churchill gave Transjordan to the Hashemites. Why not include this? I feel like it makes the history of the region much more confusing than it should be. --monochrome_monitor 23:07, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

What you say is simply untrue. Zerotalk 03:15, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
How is it untrue? "The British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the Mandate for Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the Ottoman Empire sanjaks of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the Armistice of Mudros. The draft of the Mandate was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922, amended via the 16 September 1922 Transjordan memorandum"—The Transjordan memorandum took Transjordan out. --monochrome_monitor 23:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
This is how the article on the Transjordan Memorandum describes it: "The memorandum described how the British government planned to implement the article of the Mandate for Palestine which allowed exclusion of Transjordan from the provisions regarding Jewish settlement." It is inaccurate to say that the Transjordan Memorandum "took Transjordan out" or "amended the Mandate." The Mandate was specifically written with the intention that Transjordan would be excluded from the provisions regarding 'Jewish settlement' and the Transjordan Memorandum merely explained how the article of the Mandate which was written to that effect would be implemented ("He then told the council that the British government now proposed to carry out this article as had always been intended by the League of Nations and the British government"). And note again that this article is about the area defined as Palestine during the Mandate period, not about the whole territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine.     ←   ZScarpia   00:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Changing incorrect map[edit]

The current map is from 1922, while the Mandate was founded two years earlier. This one is better because includes what later became the Emirate of Transjordan.--AmirSurfLera (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually there was no official British mandate until September 1923. Zerotalk 03:25, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Nevertheless, the mandate was assigned in 1920 as the lead and the infobox show. It was only ratified in 1923. It's more appropriate a map showing also Transjordan, which was an integral part of the Mandate until the split in 1921. Don't you think?--AmirSurfLera (talk) 03:31, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Hardly any of the borders shown in the "1920" map existed then. Not even the border with Lebanon looked like that. In 1920 it was unknown whether Transjordan would be included in the mandate or not. The map you prefer is a rewriting of history. Zerotalk 03:47, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
The borders with Lebanon and other countries or mandates are exactly the same than in the current 1922 map. Therefore such a discussion doesn't belong here, or both maps have to be deleted. Transjordan was an integral part of the British Mandate at least for one year. In fact, one of the reasons why the Irgun had this logo is because they considered that all the original British Mandate belonged to the Jewish people, including Transjordan, which was removed by Churchill a few years later. I'm only setting the facts straight. Why do you think Transjordan is included here?--AmirSurfLera (talk) 04:19, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Sigh. Please don't comment further until you have read the previous discussion on this page and in the archives. For example:
  • "What you are describing is a remant of a bogus Revisionist negotiating position during the partition discussions. The revisionist position is represented in, for example, the crest of Irgun. But it was simply bogus, was not taken seriously at the time and is not taken seriously now. Albeit it has found its way into modern propaganda."
  • "One more thing. The consensus position here was arrived at after lots of discussion, reading and learning by a large group of us. Much of the discussion is at Talk:Mandatory_Palestine/Archive_5#Palestine_.2F_Transjordan_.2F_Yitzhak_Shamir. The thread is not straightforward to follow, but it led to a clear conclusion in the end."
  • "This quote from Bernard Wasserstein, Israel and Palestine, should clarify: "In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarising the conclusions of the [San Remo] conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: 'The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers.' When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan. Following the French occupation in Damascus in July 1920, the French, acting in accordance with their wartime agreements with Britain refrained from extending their rule south into Transjordan. That autumn Emir Faisal's brother, Abdullah, led a band of armed men north from the Hedjaz into Transjordan and threatened to attack Syria and vindicate the Hashemites' right to overlordship there. Samuel seized the opportunity to press the case for British control. He succeeded. In March 1921 the Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, visited the Middle East and endorsed an arrangement whereby Transjordan would be added to the Palestine mandate, with Abdullah as the emir under the authority of the High Commissioner, and with the condition that the Jewish National Home provisions of the Palestine mandate would not apply there. Palestine, therefore, was not partitioned in 1921–1922. Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there – but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement.""
Oncenawhile (talk) 06:54, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
@Oncenawhile:: Thank you for the quotes and link. They make a more helpful and collaborative response than "to the archives", as the ones who participated are in a better position to track the consensus and main points in all that hay, than the newcomers. I made an attempt a few days a ago with the Transjordan map (as a second one), not knowing of AmirSurfLera's recent one. I'm still not convinced by the above but will take the time. trespassers william (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Transjordan FAQ[edit]

Please note the new yellow box at the top of the page, linking to an FAQ providing the sources supporting the consensus here regarding Transjordan. Please feel free to add or amend as you see fit. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Land ownership by type[edit]

The table titled "Land ownership of Palestine (in square kilometres) on 1 April 1943" is misleading. It compares Jewish owned lands with Arab+Non-Jewish owned lands but seems to include all the public / government owned lands under the column of "Arab / non-Jewish ownership". That this is so, is quite evident from the following facts:

1. The total territory of Mandatory Palestine was 26,625.6 km2, according to the Land Ownership section in the article.

2. According to the table in question, the total territory owned by Arabs and non-Jews in 1943 was 24,670.46 km2. Basically the entire territory minus the lands owned by Jews and possibly the large water bodies - the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee.

3. The majority of the territory of Mandatory Palestine was in fact public / government owned. I could not find a direct source for this claim, but from looking at the "Land ownership of Palestine in 1945 by district" table and the map on which it was based, it appears that 85% of the Beersheba sub-district was public / government owned. The Beersheba sub-district comprised almost the entire Negev desert, which in turn comprised the majority of Mandatory Palestine's territory. Therefore, it is quite likely that the majority of the territory in Mandatory Palestine was public / government owned, especially when bringing into consideration the additional government owned land outside the Beersheba district.

Since the majority of the 26,625.6 km2 territory of Mandatory Palestine was public / government owned, it is impossible that "Arab / non-Jewish ownership" could comprise 24,670.46 km2, unless "non-Jewish ownership" includes public / government owned. If the "Arab / non-Jewish ownership" column doesn't include government ownership, than the table is obviously erroneous. If it does include it, than the table is very misleading, since it treats Arabs, non-Jews and the British mandatory government a homogeneous group of land owners. One could obviously create a similar table, this time lumping Jewish and government ownership together, and thus showing that Arabs owned a minority share of the lands.

The table in question seems to be taken without reference from a Palestinian website with a clear political agenda: Palestine Remembered That is why I believe it is not accidentally inaccurate but intentionally misleading, in order to make the Arab share in land ownership appear larger than it actually was and the Jewish share smaller.

In light of this, and unless thereare any suggestions for a source that will allow us to correct this misleading table and/or any objections, I will delete the table and it's subsection "Land ownership by type". Yunis (talk) 17:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The source for the map on Palestine remembered is : A Survey of Palestine prepared by the British Mandate for the UN, p. 566.The map also appears on the UN website. Not seeing a problem with it myself.Your claims for most of the land being government owned is not true either. GGranddad (talk) 17:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a source for the table. Unfortunately, the issue remains, even though the table did appear in a certain UN report. It lumps together public / government owned land with Arab owned land, despite the two being distinct categories. I could find no hint in the 1946 Survey of Palestine as to why is the table arranged in this fashion. As I pointed out, we could just as well present a table lumping together government owned and Jewish owned land, making the Jewish owned land the majority of the total land area. Hence this table should no be considered as information but as disinformation in the context of this article, and if an explanation for the lumping together of government and Arab owned lands cannot be given, it should be removed. Yunis (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Why delete it when you can just explain the way the table categories are defined in the introductory sentence? That's what the UN did, so surely that's good enough for us. Oncenawhile (talk) 02:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
We can't just delete properly sourced content because we think that there is something wrong with it. That would violate WP:NOR. But in any case there is less wrong with it than you think. The bulk of the land (excluding the Negev) was the village land of Arab villages. In some sense it was public land because much of it was held under the Ottoman system of indefinite lease, but just to call it state land without qualification would be a serious distortion. It was land on which Arabs had a legal right to long-term possession. Probably that is why on p563 it says "land held by Arabs" rather than "land owned by Arabs". The "other non-Jews" in the table caption is meant to include the small number of other categories of owners and does not include "public fixed assets" (as it says on page 563). Zerotalk 02:56, 26 August 2014 (UTC)