Talk:Mikheil Saakashvili/Archive 1

Archive 1

Mikhail vs Mikheil

I disagree. I am not a native speaker, but I know enough to say that "Mikheil" is correct both as a transliteration and is closer to the proper pronounciation. I think Mikhail has become the most common spelling because most people are used to this form from Russian. Anyway, wikipedia is not a popularity contest, so the form most commonly use in the press doesn't have to be accepted here as the correct one. The Gorbachev example is not relevant here. Russian is much less phonetic than Georgian. It would be coorect IMO to have the main entry "Mikheil", and rerefrence "Mikhail" as well. Strašna mačka 20:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Levzur - the standard spelling is MikhAil Saakashvili! I know that this is not the transliteration preferred by native Georgians, but it is used by the media and anyone who is not intimately familiar with the nuances of Georgian politics or linguistics. --TwinsFan48

A Google News search shows that Mikhail (148 results) is used far more often than Mikheil (9 results). The clear preference does seem to be for the former, rather than the latter. I suggest using Mikhail but noting in the article that "Mikheil" is an alternative transliteration. The latter is probably a more accuration rendition of the vowel sound, admittedly, but the name is usually transliterated in the former way - think Gorbachev, for instance. -- ChrisO 20:47, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The alternative use was in the article right alongside "Mikhail," but reverted. TwinsFan48 3 Jan 2004

It was deleted along with much else, for no apparent reason. Levzur seems to have a dislike of anything to do with ex-President Shevardnadze, such as the fact that Saakashvili was recruited to join his party. If you look at his edits on this article and that on Zviad Gamsakhurdia and Eduard Shevardnadze, you will see quite a clear agenda. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's quite irritating to see factual statements being deleted for apparently political reasons. Anyway, I've reverted the article while keeping the (very small) number of new facts - principally dates - that he added with his last edit. -- ChrisO 23:29, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Oops

Oops! Adam, you're quite right about the grammar. My bad... -- ChrisO 11:12, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Letter from Levzur

Dear friends,

The United National Movement is not coalition of political organizations. UNM is political party and was founded in October, 2001 (source: information from the Press Center of UNM).

The "New Rights" and "Union of Georgian Traditionalists" are in opposition to the UNM! "New Rights" supported so-called "Governmental election block" in November, 2003!

The party "United Democrats" of Zurab Zhvania is independent organization from UNM.

I inform you that Mr. Saakashvili won the Presidential Elections with about 96% of the votes.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (user "Levzur")

My source for this was a BBC translation of a report on Rustavi-2 TV, Tbilisi, in Georgian on June 3, 2003, which states:

The leaders of Georgia's three major opposition parties - the National Movement, the United Democrats and New Right - have announced that they, together with two smaller parties, are establishing what they call a united people's movement, Rustavi-2 TV reported.

They were speaking at a rally of their supporters outside parliament on 3 June, which was staged following the government's rejection of calls by the opposition for it to be better represented on commissions that will be counting votes cast in the country's parliamentary elections in November.

The leader of the National Movement and chairman of Tbilisi city council, Mikheil Saakashvili, was first to announce the establishment of the new movement. "Today, we, the leaders of the United National Movement, New Right, the United Democrats, the People's Party and the Traditionalists declare that all these political forces are forming a Georgia-wide united people's movement in order to attain a single goal. We are launching a united people's movement in order to remove this regime and instead get what the Georgian people wants," Saakashvili said.

Looking at this again, I think the confusion may have arisen because of the reference to a "united people's movement" - i.e. an alliance between the UNM and the other parties. I'll amend the article to reflect that. -- ChrisO 10:15, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Edit request

There is an important factual mistake in the first paragraph. As the rules don't allow me to edit it myself, I propose changing it to the form (with necessary corrections, as English is not my first language):

Mikhail Saakashvili (born December 21, 1967) is a Georgian jurist and politician, elected President of the Republic of Georgia on January 4, 2004 (will be inaugurated on January 25). Saakashvili's given name is also used in the Georgian form Mikheil (he is commonly known as "Misha").

I have unprotected the page since the edit war seems to be over. Maximus Rex 11:20, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Mikheil vs Mikhail (round 2)

I realise this has been debated already, but it seems to me that if Mikheil is the Georgian form of Mikhail, and if Saakashvili is Georgian, we ought to call him Mikheil. The fact that most news and other sources call him Mikhail doesn't mean very much, because they are being filtered through Russian news services who use Russianised forms, and because almost no-one in the west can speak or read Georgian. Adam 13:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If we used the native forms in the other CIS countries, the names of the leaders would be Mikheil Saakashvili, Saparmyrat Nyyazow, Islom Karimov, Emomali Rahmonov, etc. And, last I checked, only one was used regularly on Wikipedia. More people will recognize forms that they are familiar with from the media. --TwinsFan48

So we have redirects from the more commonly used forms. Why is this a problem? Adam 13:59, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think we should do it the other way round - name the articles according to the most commonly used forms (as those will receive the majority of searches), but have redirects from the alternative forms. -- ChrisO 15:54, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

No, an encylopedia must give the correct name of a person, not the most commonly used. The "correct name" must be according to a pre-established system. I think encyclopedias have the mission to correct the common mistakes, not to sanction them. For exemple, it seams normal to use the Georgian form of the name of the Georgian president, not the Russian one. Or else, let's use the English form : Michael Saakashvili! Švitrigaila 11:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, Wikipedia policy is to use the most common name in English. (Ofcourse, there appears to be something of a takeover by Germans who promote non-English lettering). Does anyone have the Georgian Latinization official standard? 132.205.45.110 18:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Georgian national system of romanization. It seems that romanisation of მიხეილ სააკაშვილი in this system is "Mikheil Saakashvili". --Filemon 18:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

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Inauguration day

Source for the inauguration day: [2]. Andres 11:41, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Saakashvili clearly isn't president until he's inaugurated on January 25. Could Levzur please not reintroduce the inaccurate claim that he's already president? -- ChrisO 10:29, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Kashueti

How is "Kashueti" written in Georgian? What does it mean? Is it a place? Andres 19:51, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Kashueti is written as ქაშუეთი. This is the name of an old church in the centre of Tbilisi (Capital of Georgia) - right in front of the parliament building.

"Anticipated" vs "pre-term"

Andres, I've removed "anticipated" from the description of the January 4 elections - it makes no sense in that context. I can't work out what Levzur means by "pre-term", but Googling for "pre-term elections" suggests that the expression is used almost entirely in reference to elections in the former Soviet Union and Slav countries. My guess is that it's a term in Slavic languages, which has also been adopted by non-Slav former Soviet Union countries, but it may not have an obvious counterpart in English. We don't preface the word "elections" with "pre-term" or anything like that. Until Levzur started using it in Georgia articles, I'd never heard of the expression. I would advise against using it because its meaning won't be clear to the majority of English-speakers. -- ChrisO 00:06, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree that clear expressions should be used. I don't know the right expression but, as I take it, the sense is that the elections are arranged far before the end of the term (that is, normal time in office) of the previous president. Andres 00:19, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In that case, it's no different to normal practice in the English-speaking world. In the United States, for instance, the presidential election is held at least a month before the end of the president's term. -- ChrisO 10:49, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

My point is that the elections are arranged far before the end of the previous president, implying that the new president enters office when the term of the previous president is not over. Usually this occurs when the previous president dies or resigns. In the United States and Argentina, in such cases the vice-president becomes president, and no elections are held. In France, new elections are held. Maybe the right word is "extraordinary"? Andres

I think I understand what you mean now - an unscheduled election? So if elections are normally held at (let's say) four-year intervals and an election had to be held after two years, that would be a "pre-term" election? -- ChrisO 21:29, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

At least, this is how I understand the word. Andres 22:06, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mikhail is a russian form. In gerogian it's Mikheil. Is it really so difficult to say "Mikheil"??? Washington post and some other papers already use "Mikheil"

Russian              Georgian 

Elena                 Elene 
Irina                 Irine
Alexander             Alexandre etc.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 09:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Mikhail Saakashvili → Mikheil Saakashvili

Request reason: "Mikheil Saakashvili" is:

1. correct English romanisation of his Georgian name
2. more popular in English than the Russian form "Mikhail".

It used to be less popular in Google but it seems that the correct form is becoming more and more popular. Now (30 Apr), both Google Web and Google News searches give the preference to "Mikheil".

Google:

• Mikhail 174,000
• Mikheil 182,000

Google News:

• Mikhail 115
• Mikheil 184.

I see no reason for leaving this article under current name. --Filemon 22:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support as requester --Filemon 22:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support. President Saakashvili himself uses Mikheil President.gov.ge --Kober 05:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Švitrigaila 11:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

segment on current situation

The last para of his bio reads much like a political pamphlet from his oponents. While it is possible that under the cover of "fight against corruption" a few innocent people could have become victims, although it's widely believed that almost everyone in the previous government holding key position was corrupt. Indeed, they had to be brought to justice, what's questionable is how was it handled, and it is a subject of a separate article, not this one. - Alsandro 23:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: Also there are a few factual inconsistencies in his early career: it appears that in 1995 he was attending GWU Law School in DC, Took a Diploma in Strasbourg and worked at a Law firm in NYC (all in the same year). Can this be verified? Alsandro 23:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone object seeing this article going to the Cleanup Taskforce to help with its POV issues? -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 20:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the article needs serious NPOV revision and updates.--Kober 03:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That section is a total POV. It should be edited to meet NPOV. Ldingley 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Tried to clean up a little and included a link to Sandro Girgvliani murder page. Will do a better clean later in week. Regards, Matt Matty J 87 00:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Matt. I just wanted to let you know that three police officers were actually arrested and sentenced to imprisonment in connection with the murder case. However, Sandro's family and Georgian opposition still demand to punish those people who acted behind the scene. Cheers, --Kober 04:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up the 'Controversy' section, renaming it to 'Human Rights Developments'. Included a reference to some of Saakashvili's early statements, but emphasised the POV that much of his rhetoric has been put down to inexperience and a desire to fight corruption. Toned down some of the information regarding the Wrestler protests, and removed some of the info about the 7,000 strong protest against the government. I don't feel this is particularly relevant to the topic, and has a greater focus upon general frustration than anything to do with Saakashvili himself. Widened and corrected the ref. to the Girgvliani case, and made it clear that the BHHRG is a partisan organisation. Finally I added some positive's from the U.S state department 2005 report. Regards, Matt Matty J 87 16:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job, Matt. The section is now more neutral. I'll soon start foreign politics section. Cheers,--Kober 17:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Kodori gorge

the situation in the Kodori Gorge is far from over, so saying that Saakashvili has been succesful there based on one incident is a rather selective analysis of the situation.128.197.56.149 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Confronationalism

It should also be mentioned that Saakashvili seems to be "picking a fight" so to speak with Russia, creating one crisis after the next:

• The wine import problem
• Moving troops into Kodori
• Arresting Russian officers for espionage.

Each one of these events (and a few others) were (or are) conducted with the least amount of tact possible, the objective in all these cases seems to be the provocation of the Russian government. As this is a very real trend in Saakashvili's foreign policy, it should be mentioned in more detail.128.197.56.149 23:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we should also mention that he is an agent of American/Western imperialism who tries to undermine the Russian influence in Georgia which proved to be so ungrateful to the big northern brother. More seriously, the article indeed needs more info about his foreign policy, but illustarting this aspect from the perspective that you have suggested above is not supposed to be very neutral. --Kober 04:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Kober seems an inappropriate person to be 'improving' point of view. Oh well . . . Haberstr (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Can I ask why have you decided that you have the right to judge my "appropriateness"? I'd ask you to refrain from personal attacks in the future.--Kober^Talk 18:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

My point was that Saakashvili's stance is far more aggressive than it has to be and, quite frankly, probably far more aggressive than is good for Georgia. A fine illustration is the recent "spy" incident. Russia is already leaving its bases in Georgia, so there is no reason (that I can see) for blatantly insulting the Russian Army by arresting its officers and surrounding its headquarters. Saakahvili's actions in this, and in previous incidents, seem to be designed to do far more than just "undermine Russia's influence". Every incident I listed (and alot of others, if you've been following the politics in the region) could have been handled in a far less confrontational manner (well, maybe Kodori couldn't have). And, I would say that a confrontation with (as opposed to independnce from the policy of) Russia is NOT in Georgia's best interest. That is what I meant. Because I see this as a very real, I would even say the central, direction of Saakashvili's foriegn policy, some mention should be made of it.128.197.56.174 21:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware of any wine import problem. The impression that Russia was deliberately blockading Georgian wine due to it's Democratic flavour rather than for health reasons seems to be the flavour in favour with most journalists. Besides how is this a fault of Saakashvili? All this business is sad tit-for-tat 20th Century politics which has more to do with both sides refusing to accept the rights of the other to govern/behave as they see fit. Tbilisi should stop aggrevating but most importantly Russia should get out of Abkhazian territory and stop trying to crush Democracy. How sad that less than a decade ago Yeltsin was decrying the crushing of Democracy in Belarus as an ORT cameraman was arrested, and now the Kremlin's main policy planks seems to revolve around propping up all the dictatorships under the sun.....Matty J 87 01:04, 03 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you happen to recall what Saakashvili about the wine he was exporting to Russia? Something along the lines of "we could sell them shit, they'd still drink it", insulting Putin is a pretty bad idea, he tends to take it personally, I don't think it has anything to do with democracy. Like any major government (especially the US) Russia doesn't care whether there is or isn't democracy in any given country. The actions of these governments are motivated, in America's case, by profit or, in Rurssia's, by national pride. This is niether good nor bad, it just is.

As for Abkhazia, yes Russia is meddling, should we? Probably not. However, if the Russians leave, Saakshvili, it seems to me, is prepared to wage full-scale war, regardless of the cost.

My impression of Saakashvili is a rather negative one. He seems to enjoy confronting Russia while prostrating himself before America, the "political independence" of Georgia doesn't seem to matter to him. Adjaria aside, I have not seen one good thing this man has done. Not one. Yes he was democratically elected, but so were Putin and Bush. Both have caused quite a bit of misery in one part of the world or another. Yeltsin, by the way, was no more democratic than Putin, he just lied more, and was generally more incomepetant (which would explain his neglecting to shut down the press). I honestly wish the best for Georgia, as most Russians do (believe it, or not). And, as lame as it sounds, I do regard Georgians as "brothers", in a sense (no, this is not a patronizing term). So it makes me very very sad to see the direction Saakashvili has chosen. I see no reason for the hostility he radiates. I refuse to believe that improving relations with the west neccesitates ruining relations with Russia.24.62.63.6 05:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

And let's not forget that Saakashvilli's regime IS NOT democratic.It's an autharitarian regime (like Belarus and Uzbekistan).Anybody remember the arrests of opposition activists in Georgia in the begining of September?Dimts 07:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If you mean Igor Giorgadze's people, nodody considers them "opposition" in Georgia. They are just a bunch of old Commies and paid-for-that people who scream Comrade Giorgadze's (who is a KGB officer, btw) name in the Kremlin ears. In addition, Georgia is far democratic than Russia which is much more comparable to Belarus and Uzbekistan. If still in doubt, check any annual reports by the international human right organizations, such as Freedom in the World, HRW, etc.--Kober 07:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Freedom House can be considered a suitable reference.It's a double standard and paid-for-that organization.Dimts 12:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

"My impression of Saakashvili is a rather negative one. He seems to enjoy confronting Russia while prostrating himself before America." "And let's not forget that Saakashvilli's regime IS NOT democratic. It's an autharitarian regime." I know some people do not want to be reminded of the World War II era (unless it's to treat Americans — or neocons — as fascists or to compare George W. Bush to the Führer), but let's not forget either that Austria and Poland in the 1930s were not democratic, far from it; those countries were under quite authoritarian régimes. That doesn' t make Dolfi less of a bully nor does it mean that we should be understanding towards Nazi Germany (nor does it make that trio of countries morally equivalent). Furthermore, I fail to see why Hugo Chávez ought to be lionized for "standing up" to the Americans and Mikheil Saakashvili ought to be castigated for "picking a fight" with the Russians. Oh, Georgia's leader also "prostrat[es] himself before America"? (Not many people seem to take Venezuela's leader to task for "prostrating himself before" Cuba, China, or Iran!) Maybe the conclusion to take from all this is that the only standard for being a hero in this day and age is opposing the United States, and the United States alone; all else is irrelevant, never mind what the geopolitical situation is.

In any case, I have added this op-ed article by Georgia's president (notice, by the way, that Mikheil with an E is the name used):

• Unprovoked Onslaught by Mikheil Saakashvili in The Wall Street Journal. —˜˜˜˜

That article makes me laugh.That's just a mix of lies and propaganda (as always).Pathetic. P.S have you ever heard me calling Chavez a 'hero'?

POV nonsense

The partisan BHHRG has frequently claimed that the new government immediately set out to settle scores with Shevardnadze era officials.

We are told that the British Helsinki HH group is partisan while at the same "Freedom House" whose leaders have included former CIA director Woolsey is to be taken seriously? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.37.235 (talk) 04:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

LLM or JD

Did Saakashvili get JD from Columbia or LLM? Tamokk 09:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC) You don't get any degreee when you come to study in USA with Muskee grant. You come with J visa to study and go back to work in your country for 2 years. YOu can not work in the United States with the degrees granted by exchange visitor programs. Whatever he writes in his resume is good for some PR in Georgia. As a matter of fact he was just an intern who received some allowance and worked for a Lawyers Office on an assignment. The program sends you to work for them and pays you allowance (that time it was about 1200 USD a month). 15 years ago you could rent a place and live somehow with that money. TOday you can do nothing in NYC with 1200 a month —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs) 14:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No Doctor of Laws !

As far as I know he didnt receive SJD degree from GWU. He certainly studied there, but he didnt finish the course. I think that the claim of SJD should be removed until confirmed by GWU. Someone told me that she asked this question to GWU Law schoolfficial, and she was told that Saakashvili didnt get a degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Argyn (talk • contribs) 19:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Authoritarian tendencies: the 2004 election

Shouldn't Saakashvili's 2004 election victory with 96% of the vote raise some eyebrows and be mentioned in the "authoritarian tendencies" section? Similar articles on Lukashenko and elections in Belarus do not hesitate to mention much less improbable outcomes as evidence of the regime's undemocratic nature. Cossack 06:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The 2004 elections were held amid the post-Rose Revolution euphoria. In addition, many political groups, which are now in opposition to Saakashvili, were part of his United National Movement at that time. Hence, it is not surprising that he won a landslide victory with 96%. --Kober^Talk 07:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Hand grenade

Let me get this straight, the grenade was live but didn't detonate? If it didn't detonate, then it wasn't live, now was it? Contralya 17:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Authorities said it was and this was widely reported e.g. [3]. It appears the impact was cushioned and so it didn't explode. It is not up to us to dispute official sources. From what I can tell it is possible for a live grenade to fail to explode and they are a recognised hazard since they deteriate over time making it even more likely they will explode (see unexploded ordinance). If you truly believe it isn't possible that a live grenade will fail to explode then I suggest you write and tell all the sources that they are wrong. Perhaps you can volunteer to handle a unexploded 'live' (but not live in your eyes) grenade? Nil Einne (talk) 08:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

His Faith

• What about this guy's faith? Is he a christian, muslim, or a jew? That should be mentioned.

Mrld (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You forgot Zoroastrian, Atheist, Buddhist, Yezidi, Hindu... -- megA (talk) 22:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

2008 parliamentary polls

I added this major event in the democracy of his country: Mikhail Saakashvili on May 22, 2008 announced his confident victory for his ruling party in parliamentary polls amid fears of political unrest, and rising tensions between Georgia and Russia. Early official results indicated his United National Movement had 63% of the votes against the opposition's 13%, with about a quarter of the 3,664 precincts.news.bbc.co.uk, Georgian leader set for poll win --Florentino floro (talk) 11:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the overwhelming majority of Georgians (especially ethnic Georgians) are Orthodox, one does not normally mention it with them. If their faith is something else, then it is much more likely to be mentioned. And yes, it gives me shivers to consider Shevardnadze 'Orthodox';) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.119.233.200 (talk) 23:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Qartveli mkitxvelebistvis

modi gavaketeb komentars baton mixeil saakashvilze. mokled opozicia dayendes tavis adgilze. nu yofs cxvirs iq sadac ar esacmeba. da saertod aranairi protesti ar iyo am saparlamento archevnebze. aranairi seriozuli dargveva ar yofila, da sxvatashoris arc saprezidentoze. magram rogorc vtqvit ver yendebian. roca axla unda gamoeyvanat 10 000 adamiani gamovida mxolod 2 000 da tqvenc karagad xvdebit rasac nishnavs. xoda mokled oposicia dayendiii!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.123.23.196 (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Georgian is hard enough to read when written in its own alphabet (Mkhedruli). I can't even look up the words when written in Latin letters with an unknown transcription system. Please remove this if you are not willing to write it in Mkhedruli. Besides: I never heard this "10000" figure. From early on through to the end, I heard only "1400" then "2000". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.119.233.200 (talk) 23:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Heart attack?

Armenian News is reporting [[4]] that Mikheil Saakashvili has suffered a heart attack and is 'in grave condition.' It seems to be a reputable source, but no other news agencies have reported this. Do you think I should add a note about this to the article, or should we wait and see? Seleucus (talk) 01:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian news mantioned a nervous breakdown and a suicide attempt, which was averted by a bodyguard.

Both Armenian and Russian sources are, of course, on "the other side" in this war "armed Caucasus conflict" (German media)... Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 22:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Tie Eating

Why is it not allowed to mention his tie-eating tendencies? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBh9D2WIGsE&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.23.100 (talk) 01:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Diasporas, not diaporas

((editsemiprotected))

I believe Iulon Gagoshidze shoud be referred to as Minister of Diaspora Affairs, not "diaporas"

Emonkman (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Toupé

It must be! Anyone got a source on this? 91.109.185.42 (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

name of President, name of country - coincidence?

Saakashvili - family name of president ; Sakartvelo - Georgian name for their own country ...Is this a co-incidence..? Feroshki (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Law school?

The article states that he went to Columbia and GW, however the London Times refers to him as a "Harvard-educated law graduate"[5]. Does anyone know which is true? JEB90 (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It's all over the place. I see one source that says he obtained a law degree from both Columbia and GWU, another that says he obtained a LLM at Columbia and took courses at GWU, and another that says LLM at Columbia and law degree at GWU. I think it's safe to say that his educational background is a bit cloudy at the moment. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 20:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, I know that, particularly for foreign students, there are all sorts of degrees/diplomas/certificates at law schools, but this was the only mention I've seen of his going to Harvard instead of Columbia or GW. JEB90 (talk) 20:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It's very easy to verify that he got LLM from Columbia then did internship in NYC. [6]. It's equally east to see that he DID NOT get a degree from GWU [7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.220.45.238 (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The difference between western media and that of Russian media is that western media is not controlled by the state and has no investment in Georgia. Furthermore, Human Rights Watch has stated that Russia's claims of 'genocide' are grossly exaggerated. Open your eyes to Putin and his manipulation of Russian media please.

== Genocide? ==

To night 7-8 august 08.08.08 Saakashvili started making genocide of Ossetians. Mourn over them!

http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2008/08/10_a_2806921.shtml?incut1 http://en.rian.ru/world/20080810/115933126.html http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080810/115934004.html http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080810/115934231.html http://en.rian.ru/world/20080811/115962048.html http://en.rian.ru/world/20080813/116004055.html http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080814/116026568.html http://en.rian.ru/letters/20080818/116095218.html http://en.rian.ru/world/20080827/116307707.html http://www.cominf.org/english/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

I'm asking you, you think, it's not the truth? Why don't you agree to stand this note in this page? If I writed smth wrong or not in that place of this page, do it better than me(!), not just cut. So, where this note (you guess) is possible to write on this page, Thanks

I write "mourn over them" because it necessery to write now, These days, because it is present time, more than 2000 people died, more than 30 000 stayed with out there houses and homes and this is on his guilt conscience(!), do you agree with me? He has a hallmark on his face (with support of US) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrustTrust (talk • contribs) 13:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the Russian News and Information Agency can be regarded as a neutral source for this topic. Neither can the State Commission on Information and Press from South Ossetia. It would the the equivalent of using solely Georgian sources when writing about Putin. As for Saakashvili's conscience, we can't know about that unless he says how he feels. If he does then by all means add it.

We also can't accuse somebody of genocide here without seriously overstepping the boundaries of the guidelines on Biographies on living persons. The whys and wherefores of the South Ossetia conflict are complicated and better discussed on the 2008 South Ossetia war page. Finally, I appreciate you coming on here to discuss the potential additions. If only others could learn from that. Srushe (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the West News, Press can be regarded as a neutral of this quastion too, as you've said "It would the the equivalent of using solely Georgian sources when writing about Putin". So, it's better to write like this: The Russian side finds him a terrorist that made a genocide of Ossetians, but The West side finds him a right democratic president and deny That he could made a genocide.

We do not belive The west news because they invest lots of money to sponsor The Saakashvili, and You do not belive The Russian News because you convinced that it's buyed by Putin, as You convinced he buyed ORT and NTV. Why so the girl in the YOUTUBE was shut up, and this clip was watch by much more then 1 million people as it counted before?

excuse me? You can't belive that 1)30 000 refugees 2)came to Russia 3)from Georgian attack? that 4)Georgian troops were attacking Children and Women and old men directly?

So, I offer to write after words Georgian-Russian relationships or name a new pararaph War between Georgia and South Ossetia : "While Radovan Karadžić was accused in genocide in International Court, more than 2000 Ossetians died, 15 Russian peacemakers, more than 30 000 stayed with out there houses and homes and run for the help into Russia, also great number of military Georgians were died." I would like to write next if you permit : " Wourn over them!!!" and I would write, but you will cut : "It's on guilt conscience of the hero of this page!". And one more thing: I'd like to find out with your help how The government of Georgia improve it's military equipment in 30 times (modern, NATO's and not only equipment)with the help of Saakashvili and set this information in economic policy

If you like it, I'll add , or you need more links? Ok help me in English versions, because there are a lot in Russian, —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrustTrust (talk • contribs) 21:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarification needed.

On 5 January 2008, the presidential election was held nationwide with the exception of highland village Shatili, where the polling station was not opened due to the high levels of snowfall.

Does this mean that Abkhazia and South Ossetia participated in the election, which would be an official acknowledgement of Georgian citizenship? --70.131.90.91 (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Worth investigating, but the inference is dubious. OSCE inspectors found that highly irregular voting patterns or tampering took place in 25% of the polling booths they checked. Nishidani (talk) 20:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Relations With US

The article states "Georgia maintains good relations with the United States". An article in today's Wall Street Journal suggests otherwise.

According to interviews with current and former U.S. officials, as well as with Georgian officials in Tbilisi, the U.S. for years has found the relationship with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili difficult to manage.

From Mr. Saakashvili's ascent to power in the 2003 "rose revolution" to his assault this month on Tskhinvali, capital of separatist South Ossetia, his risky moves have often caught Washington unprepared and left it exposed diplomatically, U.S. officials say.

Since we have a section on "Georgian-Russian relationship" shouldn't we also have a section on "Georgian - U.S. relationship", in particular, Georgia's relationship with John McCain?

Mr. Saakashvili's U.S. ties trace back to the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, after which the young Georgian joined a human-rights nonprofit. He won a U.S. State Department fellowship and studied at Columbia University Law School in New York. He started making contacts across Washington with people, including Sen. McCain, who had a strong interest in the ex-Soviet Union and wanted to see NATO expand.

The Columbia diploma hangs on Mr. Saakashvili's office wall today. Next to it are biographies of Thomas Jefferson, John F. Kennedy, Stalin and Ataturk -- a role model -- as well as books on war and one called "How to Run an Airport."

-- NonZionist (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I have approval to integrate some of the WSJ information into the article? Specifically, in "In the United National Movement", after paragraph 3, I would add

Saakashvili's "storming of Georgia's parliament" in 2003 "put U.S. diplomats off guard. .... [Saakashvili] ousted a leader the U.S. had long supported, Eduard Shevardnadze." Seeking support, Saakashvili went outside the U.S. State Department. He hired Randy Scheunemann, now Sen. McCain's top foreign-policy adviser, as a lobbyist and used Daniel Kunin of USAID and the NDI as a full-time adviser.

-- NonZionist (talk) 23:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Since my previous edit engendered no complaints, I would like to integrate more of the WSJ information into the article. Specifically, I would replace the following paragraph --

Georgia maintains good relations with the United States, a fact much disliked by the Kremlin, and the Russian tabloid Pravda published a derogatory article about Georgia titled Another Georgia to appear on the US map.

-- with --

Relations with the United States are good, but are complicated by Saak’ashvili's "volatile" behavior. Former and current U.S. officials characterize the Georgian president as "difficult to manage". They criticize his "risky moves", moves that have often "caught the U.S. unprepared" while leaving it "exposed diplomatically".

Saak’ashvili's ties with the U.S. go back to 1991 (see #Early_life_and_career). Biographies of Thomas Jefferson and John F. Kennedy can be found in his office, next to biographies of Stalin and Ataturk and books on war. Seeking U.S. support, Saak’ashvili went outside the State Department and established contacts with Sen. John McCain and forces seeking NATO expansion.

Scott Horton, the lawyer at Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler who hired Saak’ashvili as an intern, states: "It was like the U.S. was slamming the brakes all the time. .... The U.S. was always trying to calm him down." Washington's 2004 ambassador to Georgia, Richard Miles, feared that Saak’ashvili would destabilize Georgia. Carlos Pascual, head of the State Department's financial-assistance team for Georgia, states that Saak’ashvili's "rapid push" into the breakaway republic of Adjara in March 2004 surprised not only the U.S. but also the prime minister of Georgia, Zurab Zhvania. Emboldened by the successful move into Adjara, Saak’ashvili, in June 2004, used military force against South Ossetia. Saak’ashvili surprised the U.S. again in November 2007, when he shut down opposition tv stations and used tear gas and rubber bullets against protesters (see #Criticism). In April 2008, Saak’ashvili campaigned for Georgia to join NATO, and in July he called for the U.S. to provide Georgia with sophisticated weapons.

The Kremlin opposes Saak’ashvili's aggressive policies. In an article titled Another Georgia to appear on the US map.Pravda supports opposition forces in Georgia that seek to put Georgia's interests ahead of the interests of both Washington and Moscow.

My rewording of the initial paragraph is intended to eliminate anti-Russia bias and restore WP:NPOV.
-- NonZionist (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please note that your recent changes contradicts WP:NPOV and WP:LIVE. What you have just added is an opinion, not a fact. Also, Pravda can hardly be considered a neutral source, especially this particular article with a derogatory title.--Kober^Talk 17:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

All that I added, Kober, is taken from the WSJ article, cited. WSJ, I believe, is a reliable source, and even has a strongly conservative orientation. If you find an imbalance in my contribution, then please remedy that lack by adding information from other RS articles.

I think the fact that he has "uncontrollable volatile behavior" should be mentioned, and the above suggested change quoting WSJ is just fine. His attack against Russian forces in South Ossetia on the same day that Beijing Olimpics started is proof enough. In fact the reason why Georgia has not been admitted to NATO yet is quite obvious. Which American President would agree to go to war against Russia over the problem of South Ossetia ? Even Senator McCain is not that old yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.147.22 (talk) 09:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Kober, without explanation or discussion, has seen fit to delete the edit and restore the original text prejudicial to Russia. What do we do now? -- NonZionist (talk) 16:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

DONT BOTHER COUNTERING KOBER..HE IS WELL CONNECTED THAT NO ONE DARES TO ACT AGAINST HIM EVEN IF HE REVERTS 1000 TIMES WITHOUT DISCUSSION (WELL 1000 IS A HYPERBOLE ;)LOL..IT SHOULD BE 20 REVERTS IN 24 HOURS)..3RR RULE IS NOT FOR KOBERCityvalyu (talk) 14:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Pravda article you noted was not cited originally by me. I merely copied the citation from the previous editor and summarized the article's lead-in. -- NonZionist (talk) 05:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The edit by nonZionist comes from a reliable mainstream source. The only thing that might trouble WP:BLP is an edit introducing the opinion that MS has an 'uncontrollable volatile behaviour'. The WSJ, for the rest of the content, which deals with MS's contacts in the US and US reactions seems not only reasonable but a wholly uncontroversial addition. This can be finessed, or balanced with further material of course.Nishidani (talk) 19:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

article very myopic and unbalanced

1. violates wp:point

1. unbalanced: does not mention about his genocide efforts in ossetia and ossetian refugee exodus due to his invasion of tshinvalli

Cityvalyu (talk) 07:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, the article does not say that he's an apocalyptic beast sent by the Western imperialists to oust Russia, the protector of all peaceful peoples, from the region.--Kober^Talk 07:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

i agree with the beast part..but beast is milder to describe cold blooded attack on ill armed ossetians with advanced US weapons..i suggest supplanting russia with US which seems to portray itself as georgia's god father neighbour(one problem..it is in the opposite end of the world)..Cityvalyu (talk) 14:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Buddy, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. I'm sorry but you've got a wrong place to promote your agenda.--Kober^Talk 15:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

But a later version included obvious defamation by Rogozin and Medvedev. Removed per WP:BLP.Biophys (talk) 17:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

War crime accusations can remain in BLP only if stated by a reputable international organization.Biophys (talk) 17:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If this is the NPOV dispute tagged in the mainspace article, the tag should be removed as this is over the top. (Can find other NPOV discussion here). Arnoutf (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Category:Georgian democracy activists

What qualifies him for this category? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

-Beating up opposition protesters and rigging parliamentary elections. And his undeniable tilt toward Bush in geopolitics, I suppose. 166.217.30.208 (talk) 18:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Self-comparison to Stalin?

Here's an old article from the Guardian: "This is not how the Georgians see things. In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori. Unfazed, the western media continue to chatter about Saakashvili's democratic credentials, even though his seizure of power was consolidated with more than 95% of the vote in a poll in January, and even though he said last week that he did not see the point of having any opposition deputies in the national parliament." [8]-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a self-comparison. This is an opinion piece by John Laughland.Biophys (talk) 18:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, but he's quoting Saakashvili's wife Sandra who is referring to her husband.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

So, that is something "she said". Apparently, she likes Stalin and Beria. This is rather strange for a Dutch wife. I remember though that some of Saakashvilli ancestors actually worked for the NKVD - any refs?Biophys (talk) 20:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

She doesn't "like Stalin and Beria", she said they were strong leaders. Strong does not necessarily carry a moral judgement (especially not in Dutch). Grey Fox (talk) 12:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Elections

I think this material is only remotely relevant to the subject and should be placed to another article, such as 2008 Parliament elections in Georgia. Besides, this all sourced to only one source:

Teams of international monitors from the OSCE noted the presence of "ballot-box stuffing, beatings of opposition activists, biased news coverage," as well as government officials campaigning on the ruling party's behalf after a doing-away with election laws barring government figures from campaigning while in official capacity. Among other irregularities, a OSCE report issued four months after the election (in September 2008) noted that, in one "severe" instance of tampering with the electoral campaign, "a United Opposition candidate's leg was broken by unknown attackers after his car was first forced to stop." The report additionally cited "cases of opposition activists, particularly teachers, who were threatened with dismissal from their jobs unless they stopped campaigning." In addition, "most monitored TV channels, including public TV, devoted significant and favorable coverage to activities of the authorities," according to the European report. The late Georgian media tycoon Badri Patarkatsishvili's opposition television station Imedi, shut down after its premises were stormed during news coverage by riot police in November of 2007, resumed broadcasts a few weeks following the incident, but "did not cover news or talk shows until after the election."

Biophys (talk) 18:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it would be reasonable, then, to put the OSCE report into the Criticism section. 166.217.40.206 (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be reasonable to put in "Criticism of Georgian Parliament elections", but not in criticism of Saakashvili, because this report does not criticize him personally; it just mentioned his name.Biophys (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, that's ridiculous. Saakashvili is the president -- i.e., leader of state and head of the executive branch -- of Georgia, is known for being lax in all sorts of ways with regard to sticking to democratic principles, and his party's theft of the 2008 parliamentary elections happened under his watch. It is perfectly reasonable to mention it in the criticism of the great pseudo-democrat. 166.217.203.127 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Even Stalin was not responsible for everything, much less Saakashvilli.Biophys (talk)

Was Hitler responsible for the Holocaust? There's no direct order that's in any historical archives, but the consensus is that he was. But common sense truths of the same thread doesn't apply to Saakashvili's things. At least per Biophys, methinks.

209.183.32.47 (talk) 05:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

How revealing. Well, go on and censor. But shame on you. 209.183.32.43 (talk) 08:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Pointless apostrophe in "Saak'ashvili"

I can't for the life of me imagine why someone decided to separate his surname into two halves with an apostrophe. I've looked through the talk page and archive, and this doesn't seem to have been discussed. Absolutely no English-language media write his name in this way, and neither does the president's official English website. I've corrected this throughout the article. Palefire (talk) 11:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Just in case you didn't know — the apostrophe indicates that the "k" is an ejective rather than a plain aspirated consonant. But this is only used in scientific transcriptions of Georgian or when citing single words, not in names. So the first line is probably the only place in the article that merrits use of that apostrophe. However, then again, one should've written his name as Mixeil Saak'ašvili if one were to use a more scientific transliteration. Speaking of which — I miss a pronunciation in IPA in the article... — N-true (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Objectivity

Shouldn't we include the picture of Saakashvili chewing his tie [[9]] to be objective? This article makes this american puppet look far better than he is. what is this, adherence to impotent "objectivity"? Ko Soi IX (talk) 17:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Great picture. RadManCF (talk) 01:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

More of this "neutrality" ans you will feel the consequences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.201.67.219 (talk) 08:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Foreign Relations Section

Much of what is in this section has little to do with the foreign policy and should be moved to the "Criticism" if useful at all. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 14:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

mass murder

This, this, this gangster is just disguasting mass murder. He killed tousends of inocent people during the time when the hole wordl was watching Olympics game. he used it and another one war criminal - bush jr. did help him with the enthincal cleanings. one murder loves another one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.215.89.47 (talk) 11:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Please provide neutral sources for such strong claims instead of using Wikipedia as a soapbox for your own personal dislike of a public figure. Arnoutf (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

picture

maybe is good plan to add picture of him during ossetia war, eating his tie?

I support this but it may need NPOV words to go with it. New seeker (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This op-ed in one of America's foremost newspapers should be of interest: Georgia and the War in Afghanistan by Mikheil Saakashvili in The Wall Street Journal. Asteriks (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Tsotne Bakuria's criticism

Why can we not include Tsotne Bakuria's criticism?[10] He is a former Georgian MP, a notable expert on the Caucasus and is a frequent commentator in American media. Offliner (talk) 04:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

For the love of god... 'notable expert' is a way too bold epithet! First, the guy has long entered obscurity after fleeing Georgia following Aslan Abashidze's fall (I'm refraining from mentioning his erstwhile Georgian moniker, indicating his relations with Abashidze). Nobody remembers of him except for some Russian media commentators (and Wikipedia users influenced by them) hunting for every piece critical of the Georgian government. There're much more prominent critics of Saakashvili with domestic and international credentials worthy to be included. Second, this article is not a collection of quotes. A good summary of criticism would be enough. Would you agree to add an opinion piece by every political loser to the article about Vladimir Putin? --Kober^Talk 18:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Who are the more notable critics? Maybe we should insert something from them instead. The reason I inserted Bakuria is because I thought his view is shared by many in Georgia (do you disagree?), and he could be added to the article as a representative of this view. But if it's not a videspread view, it should not be added. Offliner (talk) 02:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

If you really think that Georgians consider that Saakashvili "clearly violated international law with his acts of aggression in the South Caucasus", then you are very much mistaken. Georgians may have their own grudges against their government, but their attitude is pretty much mixed and far from being overwhelmingly negative. They appreciate the achievements of Saakashvili and criticize what has been done wrong. This is not Russia. We have no political idols. Back to the subject, there are reports by the Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Freedom House, International Crisis Group, and energetic liberal opposition activists which can be better summarized in a NPOV manner for Wikipedia. Actually, the criticism section is already there. Just needs to be more NPOV and cohesive. --Kober^Talk 04:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

This is Directed to the bonafide president of Georgia. I will like to say why are working nigerians here in Georgia not recieving the benefit of citizenship or Residence? What have they done to deserve this. The Nigerians here are coping with the situations and trying to make Georgia there home but are denied the right to live and own a citizenship even when they have kids with wife's and even they apply for the stay. Please the Government should do something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.169.200.9 (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Name

We don't normally use patronymics in Georgia. It was used during Soviet rule because of the Russian influence. It is not in use anymore. Therefore, I suggest to delete patronymic "Nikolozis dze". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.28.138 (talk) 02:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this –BruTe ^Talk 13:42, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

It's done –BruTe ^Talk 05:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Medvedev information

Dear RussAvia, I think its high time you to descend from the Russian skies and understand what Wikipedia is for. Where has your urge for NPOV gone? Please provide sources for your "most publicly acknowledged points" and prove that it really is so. Honestly only idiots or people utterly brainwashed by the Kremlin propaganda believe that Georgians are happy to embrace Russia and only Saakashvili is anti-Russian. Then explain who Lionel Beehner is and why his opinion is so important for the President of Georgia's biography. If you still believe that Medved's ranting is so crucial for explaining Saakashvili's Russian policies, then please be so kind to get rid of these extensive quotations (Medved is not Lenin to be quoted wherever you like) and summarize the Russian positiion in a NPOV manner. --Kober^Talk 12:25, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems the that Dmitry Medvedev has made the resignation or removal of Saakashvili a pre-requirement for any improvement in Russian–Georgian relations. This fact is notable and must be included in this article. This interpretation is confirmed by the article published by the Council on Foreign Relations. However that interpretation still has to be attributed to Lionel Beehner as it is still an opinion. I am restoring the section. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you agree to place any opinion piece found in the net in the article about Dmitry Medvedev? Yes, the fact that Medved is pushing for the government change in Georgia is notable, but it has to be inserted in the text in a NPOV manner not like Lenin's quotes in a Soviet textbook.--Kober^Talk 12:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I cannot see the POV you claim exists in the section. The American Council on Foreign Relations is fully qualified to publish their expert opinion. I am convinced that you will not be able to find a reliable source or expert opinion that contradicts what they are saying. On the other hand, I am sure it would be possible to find far more damaging and disparaging opinions and statements about Saakashvili by Russian leaders. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Kober, put Saakashvili into a search engine, and the most popular topic is the war that he triggered in August 2008. Yet, not surprisingly, this article totally glosses over that fact. Another of the major topics relating to Saakashvili out there is the deterioration of Georgia's relations with Russia, and it is a highly acknowledged fact that Medvedev is on the record as saying that so long as Saakashvili is in power in Tbilisi, that Russia will not deal with the Georgian government. Why else do you think that both Medvedev and Putin have met with high profile members of the Georgian opposition over the last year or so? As to quotes, they are not rantings but statements of official position of the Russian government in relation to Saakashvili (which is the topic of this article). Such things can not be glossed over. It is not like I am inserting information into the article that Misha deserves to be hung by the balls[11], or that he is a fucking lunatic.[12]. What is inserted into the article is a concise statement of Medvedev which succinctly states the Russian POV of relations with Georgia under Misha. Frankly, I don't see how you could think that things could be POV?!? And also, please stop with the inane comparisons to Lenin, for it is quite ridiculous. --Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 17:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

In fact the "hang Saakashvili" or "how Sarko saved Misha's balls" episode described in the The Times article you linked to is extensively sourced and could well be included in the article. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:07, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Criticism Section

The recent insertion of a huge quote in the criticism section by user:zloyvolsheb is unnecessary. Having a direct block quote from a single study that is almost as large as the entire section is unnecessary. What the authors of the report assert has been stated in a single statement. If someone wants to do a research, they may consult the source, that is why they are there.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 22:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You don't like the block quote and the unflattering references to alleged voting fraud and all that in the criticism section -- fine, delete away.

Now, Comtesse, could you also please explain why you again reverted to describe Badri Patarkatsishvili as an "oligarch" rather than a "businessman" as was in the text before? The term is certainly more POV than businessman: an oligarch has certain POV connotations; it literally means "one of the rulers in an oligarchy." (Which is not even sourced in your version, and probably cannot be sourced to a non-partisan source.) Also, please stop referring to Badri as "Russian-Georgian" [13]; the man was Georgian-Jewish (not that his ethnicity is even relevant for context) and a citizen of Georgia and the United Kingdom. Your edit summary that he is Russian "because he spent most of his life in Russia and made his fortune in Russia" is unhelpful; living in Africa and making my money there would not make me an African. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

First, evilmagician, you are clearly here with a particular agenda and the reason why you want a disproportionately large quote placed in the article is because it is critical of Saakashvili. Yes, the sentenced does not say EVERYTHING that the report might include but is not that throughout the article? I just cited a source from the World Bank and there are plenty of good things said about Saakashvili's fight with corruption. Yet I did not copy and paste chunks of the report, if someone wants to read it they may do so. Do not make it appear as if by agreeing with the exclusion of the quote you are doing me a favor as there is not a single article on wikipedia where a single point of view gets such a disproportionately large quote.

Two respected academics (Levitsky, Harvard and Way, U. of Toronto) naming a bunch of things wrong with the Georgian government does not seem like "excessive" thing to include in the criticism section. But whatever you like.

As for Arkady Patarkatsishvili, the most I would agree with is to describe him as "a former Russian oligarch recently repatriated to Georgia." Now I understand that this does not make things appear very rosy but I have no intention of glossing over what he really was. There are allegations, however true or untrue I do not know, that he made the money he had with deception and fraud involving murder. To ignore all of this and say he was just a businessman who did regular business is deceptive. Oligarch is a common English term to describe businesspeople in the former Soviet Union who acquired immense wealth very fast in the 1990s. It does connote illegal activity but lets face it, when you make 12 billion dollars in less than a decade, such connotations are inevitable.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 04:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

How you would describe him is irrelevant, since it is WP:OR. Patarkatsishvili was a Georgian with Georgian and British citizenship. Was a Saakashvili an American because he lived in New York? As far as "oligarch," whether a term is common "to describe businesspeople in the former Soviet Union..." is irrelevant; there was absolutely no need for you to change the indisputably neutral description "businessman" to "oligarch" when this is seen as POV (Aristotle first used the term to refer to unjust rule by bad men). The term has always had a disparaging connotation. (And it's actually unsourced to boot). Zloyvolsheb (talk) 12:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Term businessman is undisputed? I just disputed his status as a businessmen in the above post, how is it undisputed? Moreover, one of his best buddies Boris Berezovskyis also described as an oligarch so I do not think Badri is any different. Even as he was not a "Russian Oligarch" since leaving Russia, I must at least put a Georgian Oligarch as he has been previously described as such.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 14:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, "I just disputed his status as a businessmen..." simply does not count, since, as mentioned, Wikipedia policies do not allow any original research. Could you please follow WP:NPOV? I also find that your edit over here is misleading because Badri is now deceased, not recently "repatriated". At any rate, repatriated or not, how is this personal detail about him relevant to a biography of Saakashvili? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 14:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not an original research, the English-language media often uses the term oligarch, so stop pretending that you have never heard of it and stop pointing me to wikipedia instructions which I have read before. I think his association with Russia is what bugs you more than anything so that it as it should be stated. Moreover, one cannot simply mention Badri's name without giving an appropriate context which is relevant to Saakashvili's biography because he justified his actions against Patarkatsishvili with the fact that he is a sought-after criminal.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 16:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

His association with Russia doesn't bug me; your original idea that it is connected to his conflict with Mikheil Saakashvili does. If you do have sources that it is, you should refer to them; if not, this simply has got to go as original research. It's rather funny: you have successfully deleted a direct quotation from two respected scholars providing various criticisms of Saakashvili's government in detail from the criticism section, but now wish to include other details that are apparently not relevant.

As far as the terms oligarch vs. businessman, "businessman" is what was originally in this article before either one of us edited it recently. In case you are unaware of the connotations, I can provide a few sources. So, in an Auburn University professor's online glossary of political economy terms, we see that the term "always has a negative or derogatory connotation in both contemporary and classical usage" [14] And from Lily Galili's article on the post-Soviet oligarchs in Haaretz, we can explicitly find that "Unlike the more usual Western word 'tycoon' which has a positive ring, 'oligarch' has negative connotations." [15]

Of course, if you can find a source stating that Saakashvili justified his actions with the argument that Patarkatsishvili was a sought-after criminal, you should certainly include that to give us a more balanced view. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 00:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality again

I disagree with the wording used in this recent edit to the Response to criticisms section, the edit summary for which is

TV station was by far not the only area of contention between the two. The analyst implies that Badri was unhappy because the environment in Georgia was not what he expected. Not everything has to be stated word for word

If Socor doesn't directly state that the case was illegitimate, we shouldn't directly say this either.

Concerning the Jamestown Foundation article in question, I'm in agreement that Socor implies that Badri was "unhappy because the environment in Georgia was not what he expected," but I object to "The legitimacy of Patarkatsishvili's case..." since what he is writing about what he sees as Patarkatsishvili's conflict of interest in joining the opposition, not the legitimacy of Patarkatsishvili's (controversial) accusations against Saakashvili or Saakashvili's (controversial) way of dealing with Patarkatsishvili in response.

I am willing to suggest an alternative like

The scrupulosuness of Patarkatsishvili's political opposition toward the Georgian president has been questioned by the Jamestown Foundation's political analyst Vladimir Socor, who attributed to Saakashvili's anti-corruption reforms the effect of having "severely curtailed Patarkatsishvili's scope for doing business in his accustomed, post-Soviet 1990s-style ways.

as a compromise version between our two texts. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 18:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I am in favor of this:

The scrupulosuness of Patarkatsishvili's political opposition toward the Georgian president has been questioned by the Jamestown Foundation's political analyst Vladimir Socor, who attributed the businessman's discontentment to Saakashvili's anti-corruption reforms that "severely curtailed Patarkatsishvili's scope for doing business in his accustomed, post-Soviet 1990s-style ways.

--ComtesseDeMingrélie 20:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, this is a better paraphrase. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

2011 anti-Bolshevik rally

In May 2011 tens of thousands of Georgians rallied in Tbilisi, opposing what is viewed as the neo-Bolshevik regime of Mikhail Saakashvili. (See: "Opposition activists rally in Georgia")

Petey Parrot (talk) 05:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an article by the state news agency of a nation that is still technically at war with Georgia is non-biased enough, find a better source --146.232.129.75 (talk) 09:24, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Mikheil Saakashvili is not fluent in Ukrainian

I assure you that Mikheil Saakashvili is not fluent in Ukrainian. You will not find records that would prove his fluency in Ukrainian. Pamerast (talk) 04:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

File:SAAKASHVILI.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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mihail saakaşvili

merhaba ben türk vatandaşıyım gürcü bir bayanla goride evlendim şuan türkiyede yaşıyoruz emekliyim yaşım 58 biz gürcüstanda yerleşmek istiyoruz fakat orada kalacak yer yok bize yardımcı olursanız çok çok teşekkür ederiz ŞEFİK HANÇAR MZİA JAPARİDZE HANÇAR saygılarımızla — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.211.68 (talk) 13:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Ossetia invasion

Hi, I'm a new member and I just noticed something incorrect on this page. It was saying that Russia invaded South Ossetia, but this is not true, rather they saved South Ossetia. I edited and wow, but now that I have returned it has changed back the incorrect way it was.

Because actually this man, Mikheil Saakashvili, is a NWO murderer. This person is the one who decided to massacre hundreds of people in South Ossetia. If it were not for Russia, thousands would have been swept away in blood by this man. Why do the people love him? Dunno, but I do know he is a hypocrite! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshua Cameron Tyler (talk • contribs) 08:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Accent

No mention here but it seems his accent has changed A LOT. From having one clearly with a US accent, he has not got an eastern european accent. I heard him the last 2 years at the UNGA and he speaks as i write this, he sounds differentLihaas (talk) 21:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC).

Why he is currently being persecuted?

Critisism section has some information, but IMO it doesn't explain why he seems to suddenly have fell out of favor with so many people in Georgia. I know this might be a very POV topic, but can some overview be given? He did establish the civil society, curtailed crime and mafia which was rampant (murders and highways robberies were still common in early 2000s). He is rebuilding many dilapidated parts of many cities. Article doesn't really explain this. Yurivict (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Translating from the German page: Since May 2013 the Georgian General Prosecutor investigates, use of public funds for a stylist, travel costs for two models, Botox injections, hair removals, physiotherapy, rent for a yacht in Italy, purchase of a work of art by a London artist. Also quashing a demonstration on Rustawelis Gamsiri in Tiblisi in November 2007 with tear gas and rubber ammunition is being investigated.

Looks like hand in till and 'power'. 121.209.56.11 (talk) 04:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Summoned for questioning

Here are some reliable English language sources on the latest episode, where Saakashvili is summoned by Georgian prosecutors for questioning. I came across the story in some partisan sources; finding WP:RS in English took some time. I am however NOT going to edit the article. These are here for other to use as they wish.

• "Prosecutors Offer Saakashvili Questioning via Skype". Civil.Ge. Civil Georgia. 27 March 2014.
• "PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE SUMMONS SAAKASHVILI FOR QUESTIONING AS WITNESS". Tabula. March 22, 2014.
•  "US "CONCERNED" BY DECISION TO SUMMON SAAKASHVILI FOR QUESTIONING". Tabula. March 24, 2014.
• "State Dept. on Support for Accountability, Justice in Georgia". US Deparment of State. 23 March 2014.
• "Mikheil Saakashvili to answer questions in court". 1 Channel (Georgia). 29 March 2014.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:15, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Mikheil Saakashvili eat his tie

Anybody explain to me why the info about that was compeletly deleted TWICE in this article. The first one is carried out by user wikihannibal, that user claimed that the info "do not belong to the lead" but DID NOT SAY WHERE EXACTLY IT BELONG TO. The second delete was carried out by Kober, a Gruzian member and I dunno a anti-Russian pro-Saakashvili or not ?

Question: Did CIA, White House and Pentagon managed to bribe Wikipedia to carefully censor the info so that wikipedia is becoming an effective Western propaganda tool ? Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 13:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

You are violating WP:NPA (including ethnic slurs), WP:SHOUT, and fairly much everything surrounding WP:TALKNO. This is not a WP:SOAPBOX for pushing WP:UNDUE content (AKA this article is a WP:BLP). Per WP:ROC, my evaluation of the content you want to add is that it's trivia. If other editors agree that the content is WP:DUE, it would need to be added to a relevant section... and I can't see one where it belongs as the article is already a lengthy, detailed one. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

What ? lengthy detailed means cannot add info if needed ?

Relevant section ? I see a section here about the clashed between Russia and Gruzia in 2008. And another section named "Criticism and approbation". Relevant enough ?

Trivia ? Anti-Saakashvili actively make jokes about he eating the tie and that event was mentioned in many media and sources ? Dear me is that trivia ?

I admit that I lost my temper. But what should I do when there were acts which really tempted me to deliver an attacks. Oh dear me, please don't make me lost my faith about Wikipedia so-called "neutrality". Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 02:04, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I will put these info into the section "Criticism and approbation". Relevant enough. Like it or not, he did accidently chew his tie, and anti-Saakashvili actively make jokes about that incidents. Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 03:56, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Sholokhov, your being rude to me is like water off a duck's back. I was addressing your initial comments against two other users.

I'm simply telling you that, having looked at the section dealing with the Russian-Georgian war, it's already comprehensive. For the benefit of other editors, this is Sholokov's addition initially added to the lead:

"During his presidency, a brief clash with Russia occured in 2008 due to disputes of the situation in South Ossetia, resulted in Georgian military defeat and the recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence by Russia and several other countries. In the heat of the event, a stressful Saakashvili accidentally chewed his tie [16] [17]. That accident was sometime satirically mentioned in some media."

References

Your arguments read as WP:ITSIMPORTANT. The question at the heart of this is whether it is important. Aside from The Observer, your refs are blogs, forums and RT. This is Wikipedia and memes, etc., are WP:CRUFT. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

So I will put it at "Criticism and approbation" (and of course I will modified it to be more suitable and try my best not to poke fun or criminalize him). So, yes or no, relevant or not ? Why it is not important ? Because it portray an embarrassment event of Saakashvili ? Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 05:14, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

If you want more sources or better sources, here: [18], [19], [20], [21], [22].

I don't want to doubt the neutrality stance of wikipedia but with all these deleterous deeds... all these tempt me to doubt it. Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 09:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Comrade, first of all, I'm not "Grusian". I presume you are not supposed to like to be referred to as "Ruskie". In case this stems from your honest ignorance, I'm being patient to explain to you that the name of my country in English is "Georgia", natively "Sakartvelo". If you don't have any dictionary at hand right now, you can use Google Translate or refer to Name of Georgia. Second, when editing Wikipedia, you should follow WP:NPOV and avoid editorializing and using weasel words like "embarrassing" and "unfortunate". Third, what does this incident have to do with the Criticism section? You cannot criticize someone for chewing his own tie and your famous Georgian namesake himself has joked regarding the incident. The incident is trivia and if it still has a place in the article, certainly not in a way you're pushing for. Thanks, --Kober^Talk 08:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

First, I will continue to call you Gruzian, because the name "Gruzia" is officialy used or usually used in the media of a number of countries without any derogatory meaning. But of course, I don't have any intention to use that name in en.wikipedia articles because en.wiki use "Georgia". Actually, I would be happy to see en.wiki use the name "Sakartvelo" instead of "Georgia". In case if you lack of knowledge still make you doubt about it, take an example, I take a brief check and I am sure that the article is posted in a state media of a certain country, and it seems like the word "Gruzia" was not used in a derogatory way.

Second, I deleted the word "embarrassing" and "unfortunate". If you take a look at the whole paragraph you can see that it do not say SKV is a criminal or a bad guy because of that. It simply say SKV make an accident, the camera took it, and then a number of media usually use it to poke fun of and discredit him. Fair enough ?

Third, trivia as you like, quite a number of media, people and anti-SKV humans usually use that incident to poke fun of and discredit SKV. I see no reason to not mention it in wikipedia. Put it in somewhere of the article as you like, but I have no reason to see it being censored. Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 02:36, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@Sholokhov: Firstly, I will repeat: no personal attacks! Kober has already made it clear that s/he finds it insulting, and I happen to be very much aware that your use of Gruzian is insulting, so don't try to play us as if we were fools. I had already templated your talk page warning you against personal attacks, ethnic slurs and the disruptive editing techniques you've employed, yet you jumped back into this talk page tossing in further attacks. What you are engaging in is WP:BADFAITH behaviour, but are trying to turn it around against other editors and accusing us of censorship. Furthermore, you still pushed your content through, despite its being illiterate and badly formed, using an aggressive edit summary. I don't see how you've even decided that it should go at the top of the section, why it is more relevant than the other serious issues addressed in the section, and why it reads like a tacked on piece of trivia. If you wish to be treated with the respect you feel you're due, have the courtesy to treat other editors with respect. Read through Wikipedia's fundamental principles and open a discussion when/if you understand how to work with other editors collaboratively. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Nonsense. By which standard you consider "Gruzia" is a personal attacks although a certain state media use it without any derogatory meaning ? By which standard you can say that your "awareness" is right ? You read my mind and have some device to record my thinking ?

And by the way this name can be very offensive to a number of people, due to the intense relationship between two countries which have disputes over groups of islands. So if somebody use that name, will they be punished ?

Trivia ? Why trivia ? His embarrassing event was recorded and broadcasted, and it has been used by his rivals/enemy as a laughing material and a mean to discredit him. That is trivia ? Have you ever seen how anti-Saakashvili used that event to poke fun at him or discredit him ? It's not like I am going to criminalize him using that event, I just don't get your standard of "trivia".

If you wish to be treated with the respect, do some homework and come up with a more logical argument. Михаил Александрович Шолохов (talk) 08:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@Sholokhov: Please stick to arguing your case on one talk page at a time. You've brought up the same issues on my talk page which, for any other interested editors, I've responded to there. I don't see any point in rehashing the details here. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Both archived captures confirmed as correct. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:22, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Avakov vs Saakashvili| video

I just deleted the "Avakov vs Saakashvili| video" from this article per WP:LINKFARM & WP:SENSATION. Without any explanation about the incident in the text of this article this video looks like Wikipedia:Libel and a threat to WP:IMPARTIAL. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 08:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Saakashvili is now the most popular politician in Ukraine

A poll by Sociological group "RATING" has shown that Saakashvili is now (October 2015) the most popular politician in Ukraine (43% viewed him positively). Is this noticeable enough to include in this article? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 23:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why not. It's not a BLPVIO, or PEACOCK. The only reason it could be seen as being UNDUE is that we're NOTNEWS. Nevertheless, there's been plenty of coverage of the recent elections, etc. His popularity isn't an overnight success story, either. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

A small update: according to "RATING" in June 2016 26% viewed him positively, ranking him the 3th most popular politician in Ukraine (behind Nadia Savchenko and Andriy Sadovy). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 09:37, 12 July 2016 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 09:37, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if this is noticeable....

but on 11 September 2016 Saakashvili said that the party named after and founded by the man who apointed him governor, the Petro Poroshenko Bloc, "has become a criminal group". At the time I wrote this this was WP:NOTNEWS and not picked up by English speaking main stream press.... but if Saakashvili gets dismissed as governor of Odesa Oblast.... this description of Petro Poroshenko Bloc might be relevant to mention in Saakashvili's Wikipedia article. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:27, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

When did he lose Georgian citizenship?

The article contradicts itself: On 4 December 2015 Saakashvili was stripped of his Georgian citizenship. According to him this was done to prevent him to lead the United National Movement in the 2016 Georgian parliamentary election. but then Saakashvili stated on 1 June 2015 that he had given up (three days before) Georgian citizenship to avoid "guaranteed imprisonment" in Georgia. Or did he lose Georgian citizenship automatically when he became Ukrainian, and the December 2015 decision was just a confirmation of that?--176.7.54.203 (talk) 07:41, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

[[User talk:176.7.54.203 - 5 months after your post, the very same contradiction is there in the article. I was going to ask the exact same question but ask the question as "Did he loose or give up his citizenship?".Frenchmalawi (talk) 12:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

He was stripped of Georgian citizenship on account of his being granted Ukrainian citizenship. Here's an article on that.--Kober^Talk 13:28, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

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Location of 8 December 2017 arrest

Hey YantarCoast 👋. Is the place where he was arrested relevant in this Wikipedia article? The article is already bloated with questionable details (if you don't consider Wikipedia to be an almanac....). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:17, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi there. Yes, you are right. We can do without this. I was going to add something there (Pokinboroda has various things to say about the arrest), but changed my mind. Thanks! YantarCoast (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality

Not sure what the official policy is on this, or if it has been brought up before, but what is the neutrality issues with the primary pictures of world leaders? What I mean is that Saakashvili's photo is him smiling. Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin's picture is a mean-looking face. Is this pro-Saakashvili and anti-Putin? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylelovesyou (talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 May 2012

This may have more to do with the pics being in the public domain. If it's ideological that would be concerning and even funny. Who'd be influenced by these pictures, but I will have a look one day, Check villains and non-villains.

The cancellation of his Ukrainian citizenship is not valid. It is not allowed to cancel a citizenship and make the person stateless. 2001:8003:A928:800:605C:9910:65CA:2430 (talk) 07:25, 30 June 2018 (UTC)