Talk:Nasreddin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
Note icon
This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
WikiProject Turkey (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Iran (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Afghanistan (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon Nasreddin is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Pakistan (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Islam / Muslim scholars  (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Muslim scholars task force.
 
WikiProject Mythology (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Page Title[edit]

I'm moving the page to Nasrudin. The article body uses that name, and there doesn't seem to be any justification for using the Nasreddin variant since the claim from 2004 about Nasreddin being "more popular in Google" is now demonstrably untrue. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one reverted this earlier. I've undone this change, albeit a little late. It was done with no discussion, unless the discussion was deleted. I checked google again and Nesreddin had about 200 000 more results. Finally, none of the names listed on the page had Nesrudin listedwith Nasreddin and Nasrettin being the most common. Only Bosnia was listed as using the vowel u, although I didn't look at the Cyrlic scrips. Additionally most other wikipedia language articles had a form of Nasreddin, so consistency here would be preferable. Grant bud (talk) 01:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, it was done with no discussion because the talk page had no activity... but I don't have a horse in this race, so I don't much care. Just as long as the article title and body use the same name, I don't care which spelling it is. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:18, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Examples Section[edit]

Is it me, or does the whole thing seem to be a largely unreferenced and unencyclopedic amalgamation of snippets? I thought I'd check first but if there's no objections I'm thinking of just removing that whole section. Peter Deer (talk) 11:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

See comments in archives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nasreddin/Archive_1#Deleted_examples
Just as many good music articles have snippets of music, to my mind an article about a situational comic like Nasreddin should have a few examples of his comedy.--Annielogue (talk) 12:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I had added 3 examples, which now have cites given. Now 2 others have been added. My feeling is that 3 is probably about the right number for an encyclopedia article. Any thoughts? If not, I may well delete the last two (which, I should add, are great stories) after a while. --Annielogue (talk) 08:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
There are several more examples at Wikiquote, which is probably a better place for them. The Encyclopedia should focus on information about the folklore, and not include a lot of examples. A few examples (with citations) are fine, especially when the clarify a (cited) specific point of information about the subject. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Factual accuracy[edit]

This article makes the ridiculous attempt to establish some kind of "real life" for a totally legendary person. Any claim to his alleged birthplace is just POV, as are any references to his alleged ethnic background, country of birth, etc. Just check the sources given in those paragraphs: they are totally unreliable, not a single scholastic work. Therefore, I have tagged the article. Please do not remove the tags without supporting these claims with REAL scholarly sources and not unreliable websites. Tajik (talk) 20:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Nasruddin does indeed belong to the realm of legend. EVERYTHING about him is POV; indeed, Nasruddin stories are nothing but games of POV hide & seek. What is important is that the stories circulate and exert cultural power over millions.

The same can be said for Jesus Christ, for that matter, for there are indeed those who dispute his actual existence.

The only solution is to give equal weight to all POVs and stop the handwringing over trying to find any Supreme Truth version.

He must be rolling over laughing in his grave over this thingie about "The Neutrality of This Article is Disputed."

Save the neutrality and objectivity for articles on bookkeeping and triethanolamine.

--Arthur Borges (talk) 07:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)


There is no clear line between truth and legend. For example, the best known story about George Washington is that he chopped down a cherry tree, a story which has been told about several men, but that does not mean George Washington never existed.

It is unlikely that any single man did all the things attibuted to Nasrudin, but that does not prove that he didn't exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.62.242.53 (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Four remarks[edit]

  1. Nasrettin Hoca is not a legendary person. His tomb is in Akşehir and I have been there. It is true that there are other cities in Turkey which also put claim to own him. That's no surprise. He is an important element of Turkish culture and the cities try to be proud of his existence. (I think that is true with other historical popular people also.)
  2. Nasrettin Hoca lived in Turkey. He had never been to Khorasan. And by the way, it was impossible then. Mongols annexed Khwarezmid and Khorasan in 1220s while Nasrettin was still a teen boy. While everybody was fleeing to Turkey, why would he visit Khorosan ?
  3. Then, why is he so popular and owned by other people ? This is called cultural exchange. (It is a healty attitude; stories instead of war !)
  4. And one remark more. The name of an article about a Turk should be in Turkish. Please note that Nasrettin Hoca is a proper name and proper names should not be translated. If Nasrettin Hoca have already been included in the culture of English speaking countries, then I would not object an English name of Nasrettin in Englih Wikipedia . But he is not. In that case the name should be in Turkish. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree that the name should by default be in Turkish because he's a Turk. Additionally the arabic script, which lacks short vowels, was used at the time so this makes transliteration difficult. Besides, wasn't Turkey Persia at the time of Nasrettin Hoca? Since I thought the mongols are what made the Turks Turks? Anyway I changed it to Nasreddin for the reasons stated above. Not that I don't prefer Nasrettin myself, easier to pronounce, but it seems to be the most common one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant bud (talkcontribs) 01:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Grand bud explains that he has changed the name because of above reasons. Which reasons ? I haven't seen one. Yes Arabic lacks some vowels, so what ? In Turkish prononciation words can't end by d . If words borrowed from another language end in -d, it is automatically changed into -t. eg., Ahmad → Ahmet (There are other changes like b → p for instance, but that's another story.) Naturally, a Turkish name should be written accordingly. And one serious question about claims. What does Turkey Persia mean ? and why did Mongols make Turks ? If Mongols had the power of converting national identities wouldn't they convert the people of Turkey to themselves instead of Turks ? Please try to be reasonable. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


Nedim Ardoğa, you seem (reasonably) to be confused by some casually idiomatic US English, and while it is a bit tangential, you deserve clarification:
  1. "wasn't Turkey Persia" would be more formally correct as: "wasn't the area now referred to as 'Turkey' populated by people who spoke Persian and would have identified themselves as Persians, and wasn't it under the control of a political entity centered in Persia". I believe that the answer to that is "no". The areas cited in the article seem to have been under either Byzantine or 'Sultanate of Rum' rule during the 1200's.
  2. "I thought the mongols are what made the Turks Turks?" seems to me to be an oversimplified (and probably misunderstood) statement of the orthodox (at least in the US) historical interpretation that the existence of a unitary Turkish ethnic and cultural identity centered in Anatolia is a 2nd-order consequence of the Mongol incursions in the historically Turkic areas of Central Asia (as you refer to in your original remarks.) One might analogously say that the Goths made the English English (by driving groups of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes to find a new homeland that was not chronically attacked by Goths)
As for how to spell the title of the article, I don't believe there is an obvious answer. This is the English language Wikipedia and the transliterations (NOT translation) of the name for English speakers have varied greatly. One could make a case for Nasruddin or Nassr Eddin based on prior references in English, but I'm not sure that the choice of title transliteration really matters as long as the Wikipedia plumbing gets people here for all of the variants used widely in English. On the other hand, the overall article is such a mess stylistically that it seems to argue for a split into two articles: one titled "Nasrettin Hoca" with content limited to credibly referenced historical facts about the man in a strictly factual style, and another one titled "Nasreddin" about the legendary/literary character. WKCole (talk) 22:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Nasreddin was Turkish[edit]

Nasreddin was from Turkish ethnicity but that is impossible to write that here. In fact it is impossible in Wikipedia to write to any famous Turkish person that he was of Turkish ancestry. Wikipedia has changed into a huge anti-Turkish racist encyclopedia with mostly Greeks,Persians,Armenians and many others, editing articles related to Turkish culture and history. Every related article to Turkish subjects is filled with edits made by these hatefull person. Who have no real knowledge about Turkish culture but only want to make negative edits.

Is the question: Why was he Turkish ? The question should be why should he not be Turkish?

Nasreddin lived in Anatolia which was populated by Turkish speaking people at that time, his stories are in Turkish, he is famous in Turkey, he is a muslim, he is famous in Turkish culture, his grave is in Anatolia.

He can also be famous in many other cultures this does not mean he was from those cultures, it is obvious that there was cultural exchange. With no source at all, claiming every famous Turk, to be of a different ethnicity is the standard procedure in Wikipedia. The power of racism and prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonTiger23 (talkcontribs) 15:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Once again Nasreddin is a male Turkish name, it was a common male name in Turkish Anatolia in the past, it lost its place because its not an modern Turkish name anymore, Nasreddin is being potrayed as a Turk in almost every tale. Redman19 (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Spelling[edit]

Can we please get some consensus on the spelling that we're going to be using for his name? It's silly to have the article title and body use different variants. Given that my last attempt to fix this had the title reverted, this time I'll change the body. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

?[edit]

Takabeg (talk) 12:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

!
So? Ignore the honorifics. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I shew some sample of search on Google Books, because one user had changed the title from Nasreddin to Nasrettin Hoca (this edit). About other alternatives, we can discuss on it. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
He "has" many alternative names : ) Takabeg (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I support your reverting that page move. I showed other examples to indicate that the title Mulla and the honorific Hoca (with spelling variations) are each used about as often as the other. It is best to avoid using titles and honorifics in article titles, so "none of the above" is the correct alternative. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
What's your opinion on this similar case ? Takabeg (talk) 05:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I am not really familiar with that situation, but it appears that "English speakers have commonly used the word pasha as if it formed part of a personal name," so it may be appropriate in such cases. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I wanted to ask about the problem on whether Mehmed or Mehmet (similar to the case of Nasreddin or Nasrettin) rathar than titles and honorifics. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 21:11, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand there are about 40 persons with WP articles using some spelling of the name Nasir al-Din, and the bare name is actually very ambiguous. As this one doesn't seem to have a surname or a patronymic, the title or honorific is required to distinguish him. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I find far more hits at GoogleBooks for common spellings of the name that refer to this legendary character without any title or honorific than with one. It is a bit tedious to analyze because no simple query can filter out other uses, but results like "Nasrudin -mulla -mullah -hoca -hodja -Llc" are overwhelming. There is a disambiguation link at the top of the page, and common usage indicates the name and its common spelling variants should be directed here rather than to Nasreddin (disambiguation). ~ Ningauble (talk) 23:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Support for "Nasrudin". Takabeg (talk) 03:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment. First of all I thank to user Takabeg for his page move revert. Most of the middle east wikipedias are using Mulla Nasreddin (have a fast look to interwiki links) and most of them are using Mulla. Since this figure belongs to all middle east/centarl Asia culture, I support Nasreddin, with emphasis of possiblity of using prefix of Mulla.--Aliwiki (talk) 23:55, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
    I sympathize with the idea of using the prefix of Mulla but I do not support it because, although many sources use it, there are also very many sources and traditions, including both modern ones and some of the oldest ones known, that do not regard him as a cleric. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
well, the point is that the prefixes such Mulla doesn't necessary refer to clerics. In other words, clerics are Mulla, but all Mullas are not clerics. Such prefixes are normally in use to refer someone's greatness in knowledge, behaviour, respect and so on in mideast culture.--Aliwiki (talk) 22:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Turkish people ?[edit]

According to İlhan Başgöz, his nationality is disputed[1] And we must see Category:Turkish people. It is said that "This category page lists notable citizens of the Republic of Turkey."

Sources[edit]

With this, and the Uzbek section, in mind, I have rewritten the lead and first section to reflect the multiple claims on his person. Such things often attract more attention than the Nasreddin tales themselves, so watch this space... --Annielogue (talk) 14:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Personally I'm not sure that he was a Turk, because of the case of Rumi. See you. Takabeg (talk) 08:02, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 
See this academic source: Nasreddin was not a historic person but rather a "reflection" of the semi-legendary "Djuha" of Arabic and Persian literature. --Lysozym (talk) 09:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Actually, that source notes that Nasreddin anecdotes were already popular in Turkey when they were combined with stories of Juha, and concludes that the Nasreddin tradition seems to be the result of two different corpora of stories. This is consistent with encyclopedic sources, cited in this article's paragraph about Juha, which indicate Nasreddin lore arose independently and later absorbed the older Juha lore.

I agree that Nasreddin was not a "historic person". There appears to be a stable consensus in reliable sources that if Nasreddin stories were originally inspired by an actual person, nothing definite is known about him. The subject of this article is Folklore, not Biography. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

P.S.– Thanks for linking that article: it has an excellent bibliography. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I think you can go ahead and we have to mention Juha much more. Because not only in Arabic-speaking countries, Judeo-Spanish and Kurdish editions are also connected with Juha's stories. Takabeg (talk) 01:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

POV?[edit]

In the phrase "... it is claimed that within the tale there is usually also something to be learned" the word "claim" seems to imply that there is some debate over whether most Nesreddin tales have a pedagogic nature, imparting some form of knowledge to the reader. But there is no debate on this topic. WjtWeston (talk) 01:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Not much as POV, even considering WP:CLAIM, however could be a WP:COPYVIO issue. See my tweak. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 05:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Khodja Nasritdin.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Khodja Nasritdin.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 09:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Hodja (4).jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Hodja (4).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Link between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk[edit]

I have read several books filled with Nasruddin jokes, and one book filled with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk when they were both in Samarkand. The style of the jokes seems to be consistent in both the jokes books and the book with discussions between Nasruddin and Timur Lenk, which makes it likely that there was a real person called Nasruddin, Mulla Nasruddin, Nasreddin, and he was in close contact with Timur Lenk in Samarkand. This connection between these two men seems to have been overlooked in both the wp articles about Nasreddin and Timur. Google for this expression timur lenk nasruddin and you will find 154,000 results in many languages. Roger491127 (talk) 13:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Uzbek Nasreddin Afandi[edit]

""In gatherings, family meetings, and parties they tell each other stories about him that are called "latifa" of "afandi". i There are at least two collections of stories related to Nasriddin Afandi.""

It seems to me that there is some error here. Does it mean: "... called 'latifa' or 'afandi' ..."; or "... called 'latifa or afandi' ..."; or what?

Then here is the little orphan 'i' - is that a relic of some previous amendment perhaps? Dawright12 (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

In Bulgarian folktales[edit]

He's not always the antagonist of Sly Peter, sometimes they cooperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.162.145 (talk) 10:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Undue emphasis on biographical speculation[edit]

I had been under the impression that the opinion of Professor Mikail Bayram about the real-life identity and biography of the legendary Nasreddin is a minority view;[1] and that most scholars consider the original inspiration for the folk character to be unknown or at best very uncertain.

Even if those theories have received somewhat more recognition than I am aware of (i.e. none), it seems to me that this article is, or ought to be, primarily about the folklore of the iconic character, rather than speculations about biography and politics. Therefore, the amount of coverage of the professor's theories in the article, and especially in the lead section, strikes me as undue emphasis on a conjectural historical footnote. ~ Ningauble (talk) 00:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Arabic Misspelling[edit]

The Arabic text does not read Nasruddin Hoja. It says Nasruddin Jahaa. Maybe somebody should fix it.