Talk:Western Pennsylvania English/Archive 1

Archive 1

Y'uns

How about the second person plural "y'uns"? Ortolan88 —Preceding undated comment added 04:50, 27 October 2002

Got it already, third bullet from last, first section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwertii (talk • contribs) 08:08, 27 October 2002

Not unique

The majority of the things that are supposedly distinguishing characteristics of the accent are not really that unique to Pittsburgh. I grew up in SW and central Ohio, and 85% of these terms and pronunciations are the same there and, AFAIK, throughout the lower midwest. mjb 09:42 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, elements of the accent are present throughout areas of Western Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, and probably other places. However, the accent as used in Pittsburgh is definately slightly different from these other areas. That's like saying that, because a Bronx accent overlaps a lot with a Brooklyn accent, there isn't really such a thing as a Brooklyn accent.

kwertii —Preceding undated comment added 17:40, 27 October 2002

Neb

I was interested to see

• neb v. to investigate or take interest in things which are none of one's business. He was nebbin' around in my business.

In Yorkshire, England neb is a dialect word for nose, and the expression "get yer neb out" is often used to mean "mind your own business. Could this be the origin? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris Q (talk • contribs) 13:47, 6 January 2003‎

Can't say for certain, but it's very possible.. kwertii —Preceding undated comment added 01:39, 7 January 2003‎

"Neb" is short for "nebbish" (orig. nebech) in Yiddish/Yinglish. It basically means a weak, pathetic, pitiful person. With its significant Jewish neighborhoods, Pittsburgh surely got it from Yiddish/Yinglish. It's quite common in the Greater New York area. You can check the reference in The Joys of Yiddish. -- CJ Withers 01:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

While I'm sure your information on "nebbish" is accurate, in Pittsburgh, "nebby" is usually used in the same sense as "nosy," rather than pitiful or pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.151.119.42 (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written

This really is poorly written, and is designed more to provoke attention and amuse than it is a good article about the local speech. I'm sure regional pride can be fun, but it belongs someplace other than Wikipedia. Improv —Preceding undated comment added 03:19, 25 April 2004‎

Just an extra little note on this...

Another item that I felt might have been left out...

our as in hour becomes ahr (a as in affect). Examples: "haur" (hour), "saur" (sour), and "scaur" (scour)

Definitely seems to be a German derivation to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.48.213 (talk) 18:44, 13 September 2004‎

The 'tahl' in the bathroom

I grew up in the Pittsburgh region but have mostly lost my accent (strangely enough, I lost it while attending Carnegie-Mellon, due to all the non-Pittsburghers surrounding me and making fun of how I talked!). One time, after I converted to more standard English, my mother managed to say something I couldn't understand due to her Pittsburgh accent. It involved the color of the tile, or maybe towel, in the bathroom -- both of which would, of course, be pronouned "tahl".

One other vocab word that I think should be mentioned on this page is "crick", meaning a stream of water. I still can't bring myself to say "creek" -- all these years later, that still sounds completely stilted to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.252.51.63 (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2004

I added "crick." I have also encountered the same issues with using it in my spoken vocabulary. I always sneak out and say "stream," but a proper noun occasionally sneaks by and causes a moral dilemma. Undercooked —Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 28 December 2004

I grew up 250 miles northeast of Pittsburgh and I learned it as "crick." Lowrydr310 —Preceding undated comment added 17:06, 2 March 2006

I once saw a map which charted the areas of the U.S. where each colloquialism for stream was used. "Crick", "creek", "spout", "run" and "lick" were all mapped, along with several others that escape me. "Crick" was definitely not limited to Pittsburgh. It was very interesting. I'll try to hunt it down. —Xanderer 01:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Moon Township, and we used both "crick" and "creek"... I understood a crick to be a very narrow flowing body of water (less than 6 feet wide), the type that one often encounters while walking through the woods, whereas a creek is wider and possibly deeper (i.e. Montour Creek). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Y2flu (talk • contribs) 02:51, 31 July 2006

IPA and Cleanup

Sorry for not logging in to make the IPA changes.

I converted the pronunciation to IPA as best I could. The original had a few ambiguities that I had trouble handling. For instance /ej/ /ij/ etc. are not diphthongs used in English (see International Phonetic Alphabet for English). Someone with better linguistic background and a more intimate understanding of the dialect should check what I have done. Original author: Is there a source where someone can read more about this?

I grew up in northwest Pennsylvania, an area which is considered by linguists to use a Pittsburgh dialect, but in fact has a distinct but related dialect with peculiarities of its own. Many elements of Pittsburgh English are present, some, especially neologisms are not.

Also, Pittsburgh English is the only Midland dialect where the cot-caught merger occurs. See [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casito (talk • contribs) 02:27, 31 December 2004‎

No, you're wrong. Pittsburgh English is not the only dialect in the Midland where the cot-caught merger occurs. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm scared...

I grew up in Brackenridge, just 20 miles up the Allegheny from the 'Burgh. I moved to Omaha eight years ago and my accent, which was never quite that strong, has dissipated over time. When I go back to Pennsylvania to visit, I fall right back into "dahntahn n'at", because all of the people there speak that way. Until you've been gone for a while and returned, you just don't realize how thick the accent is.

Anyway, I was very amused by this webpage. There are a few entries I had not heard before, but mostly I could relate to everything. But there was one point here that really confused me. The entry discussing the "cot-caught merger". I didn't understand the difference between the two words. I sat at my desk repeating them over and over. I pronounce them exactly the same.

I have spent the last hour walking around my work center asking people to pronounce the two words. I have been shocked to discover that to everyone else, they are pronounced differently. Scary stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.7.251.200 (talk) 19:06, 1 February 2005

Heh. I always think of first names "Don" and "Dawn" as having identical pronunciations, but apparently that's also a Pittsburghism. -- Ventura 23:58, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC)

I never noticed any difference between caught/cot or Don/Dawn. I grew up in Northeast PA, lived in Pittsburgh for four years, lived in Houston, lived in LA for a while, and now I'm in New York. In NY and NJ, caught/cot and Don/Dawn are pronounced differently. Strangely enough the Pittsburgh accent never bothered me. The NY/NJ and New England (Boston) accents I now have to hear on a daily basis drive me nuts sometimes!Lowrydr310 —Preceding undated comment added 17:06, 2 March 2006

I say 'dawn' and 'don' and 'cot' and 'caught' the same too, and I am from Kansas, it's not just you.Cameron Nedland 01:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Chimbley

I added 'chimbley' to the list, after hearing it a lot when I attended the Art Institute. So much that I looked up the roots of the word one day. --Poorpaddy 06:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Upstreet

An expression I recall from growing up in the South Hills is "Upstreet", meaning your local community's shopping district. I guess this might have originated form the geography of the region; many of the main commercial roads, like Brownsville, Washington, Broadway, Brookline, run along ridgelines, while the residential areas tend to be down "in the hollers". "Downtown" or "Dahntahn" typically refers only to Downtown Pittsburgh proper.

I also second the mention of "tahl" for either towel or tile. That's almost the principle way I recognize 'Burghers out here in Cali. "'E 'ed a whole pahl uh at 'ere oak fahrwood."

Thanks, Shep — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.136.102 (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2005

References?

What references are needed for the direct terms? Most of it is probally from "experience"/tradition by living in Pittsburgh. --Weatherman1126 15:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and backed up with published sources. Personal experience isn't good enough. Some dictionaries, such as the American Heritage Dictionary, indicate that word is used only in a specific region, so if you can find a citation from one of those that the word in question is unique to Pittsburgh, then that's citing a source. Published dialect surveys and atlases will also often show what words are used where, so that's another place to look for verification. --Angr 16:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Scott Kiesling did an excellent paper on Pittsburghese (pronunciation and some lexical items). Why wasn't his work cited? It's really easy to find on the Internet: just put his name in and "Pittsburghese" and voilà! Here's the link anyway: [2] -- CJ Withers 01:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Gumband

Grew up near the old Greater Pittsburg Airport/National Guard base and I always say Gumband when I am referring to a rubber band. This is deeply ingrained in me, as are many of these other regional colloquialisms. It may be more accurate to parse this into two words such as Gum band, however I must leave that debate to other, more learned colleagues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KingDaddyO (talk • contribs) 17:16, 31 January 2006

Re-write

This article flip-flops among the terms "dialect", "pronunciation", "Pittsburghese", "vocabulary", etc. Therefore, I suggest a re-write focusing on (1.) pronunciation, (2.) vocabulary, (3.) perceptions, (4.) crossroads (i.e. proximity to the South, Central, Mid-Atlantic, North/Lake Cities areas), (5.) other pronunciations (African-Americans, new Pittsburghers) (6.) presence of Italians and Slavs and how/if they affected the language, e.g. "Gutchies" or "Gotchies" is not Pittsburgh-specific, it's Polish/Ukranian all over the diaspora. -- CJ Withers 01:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

"Havting to..."

I was born and grew up in the southern U.S. but have attended college for the last 4 years in western Pennsylvania. I've experienced much of the Pittsburgh dialect first-hand, and I have to admit that it's pretty interesting. One thing I've heard a lot since coming to this region, especially from people who grew up in the western Pennsylvania area is the phrase "havting to" instead of "having to". For example, "He didn't like havting to wash the car when it was so cold outside." I don't hear it quite so much in other contexts, like "They were having dinner." Can anyone shed light on this word, and whether it fits in with "Pittsburghese" or is some other linguistic oddity? I didn't see it in this article, and I can't find a solid reference to it anywhere on the internet, but I hear it all the time in western Pennsylvania. I know this talk page isn't meant to be a linguistics discussion forum, but if there's some credence to this then I'd like to know more and perhaps get it added to the article. --Nothlit 03:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, living in Pittsburgh, I've noticed this as well. It's only really used in present tense though, like "I havet to go home now.", but it's not really used as "havting." There's also sometimes an "S" and a "T" at the end of the word "want", such as, "The dog wanst out." However, that's only done referring to he or she, not to you, I or we. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.101.176 (talk) 15:54, 7 June 2006

Yinzbonics

Though I'm not a Pittsburgh native, I have lived here for six years. I've never heard, anywhere, save from this Wikipedia page, anyone refer to the Pittsburgh dialect as "Yinzbonics." Is there any sort of source for this? I'm not prepared to change it, for I do not know if it is wrong or if I just am ignorant on the subject. I, myself, have always been partial to the "Yinzer dialect." But seriously, does anyone have some reference to the use of "Yinzbonics"? Sixtus LXVI 04:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Down"

I slightly changed the way it was listing by adding and "h" after the "a" so it says "dahn." Living in Pittsburgh, I've never heard it pronounced as "dan", like the guys name, rather the "ow" is pronounced like the word "ah." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.101.176 (talk) 16:00, 7 June 2006

I reverted your change, because the pronunciation was given in the International Phonetic Alphabet, which uses different symbols for vowel sounds than English orthography does. Angr (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Rubber band/gum band

I've heard rubber band used in Pittsburgh, but more often I've heard gum band. I'm not sure which one to put under the section of "dictionary entries". SilverBulletx3_chatteh 17:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations

The vast majority of these terms are not cited. These citations need to be added within the next week or I will be deleting them. There is a references section, but that's not the same thing as citing; individual terms need to be sourcable. --Chris Griswold 17:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear. User:Angr 19:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Please find citations for the following:

Pronunciations

• Unlike other Midland dialects, /ɑ/ and /ɔ/ are merged as /ɔ/; cot and caught are homophones (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006: 59–60, 271).
  • This was sourced, as you see; I don't know why you removed it. User:Angr 09:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That was an accident; the first time I removed these, I deleted them, but then I decided it might want to offer other editors one more chance to cite them. This one appears to have gotten mixed in with the others the second time around. The lack of proper reference tags made it a little more difficult. --Chris Griswold 15:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• The first stress in a word often becomes the primary one: pro'nunci,ation.
• Syllabic r as in hurt is a rhotacized mid front vowel, rather than a rhotacized mid central vowel in General American.
• Vocalic nuclei are rarely rounded.
• When not monophthongized, the nuclei of diphthongs shift toward [æ], especially in enunciated speech: [eɪ] becomes [ɛɪ] or [æɪ], [iː] becomes [ɪ], [uː] becomes [ɪʊ], and [oʊ] becomes [əʊ] or [ɛʊ]. This appears to be on the increase, used by young people proud of their local heritage.
• As in many dialects of American English, [æ] before [n] [m] or [ɹ] and [eɪ] before [ɹ]}} or [l] standardly change to a diphthong [ɛə]. This new phoneme often merges into [æ], especially among younger Pittsburghers. This second merger creates a new set of homonyms such as pal and pale.
• [l] is "dark" (i.e. velarized), and sometimes purely velar, postvocalically and often in other positions.

That's common in all dialects of North American English. Thegryseone (talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Stops, including nasal stops, are flapped and voiced noninitially before vowels in rapid speech.

That happens in all dialects of North American English, at least with /t/ and /d/. And I really don't think it only occurs in rapid speech. I do it in all styles and speeds of speech. Thegryseone (talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Epenthetic r occurs after vowels in a small number of words, e.g. wash becomes [wɔɹʃ].

This is common throughout the Midland. Thegryseone (talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• The h is commonly dropped from the beginning of many words, e.g. here/ear hear/ear.

That can happen in certain words in all dialects of North American English as well. Thegryseone (talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Fire plug

I grew up in Moon Tahnship, and now I live in Louisiana. When I went back to visit, someone told me, "Don't park by the fire plug." I had forgotten what a fire plug was, until I looked over and saw the hydrant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Y2flu (talk • contribs) 02:45, 31 July 2006

Keller

Yunz forgot keller (color) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.203.175.175 (talk) 21:38, 30 August 2006

I agree; "keller" should definitely be mentioned. Seansinc 16:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Pop

God Could you people miss something so simple as the fact that we (Pittsburhers) say Pop instead of Soda. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 02:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not at all limited to Pittsburgh. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

We say that in Kansas.Cameron Nedland 01:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have seen a map of popular names for soft drinks by county in USA, Pop is just slightly more common than Coke (which I didn't know people called pepsi) and this so called "Soda" is only what it's called in areas that media (tv, etc...) is written rather than where it's supposed to take place. This creates the illision that you live in a small area that refers to it like that. 199.43.48.129 (talk) 19:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Whither jagoff?

"jagoff" is common Pittsburghese for "jerk," right? Sounds to me like it's related to "jagger." I've never heard the term used anywhere else, but it does show up in some Hollywood movie scripts. I used to keep a list, but all I can remember is Joe Pesci calling someone a jagoff in The_Public_Eye_(film). 0-0-0-Destruct-0 01:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You're over-thinking it: It's just diluted pronunciation of "jackoff" —x a n d e r e r 10:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Zenci?!

Did anyone see the lastest addition to the dictionary items on this page?

"Zenci n. Negro (www.eurodict.com). Example: “The zenci stole my bycicle.” Geographic distribution: From the western edge of the Alleghenies to beyond the Ohio line (see above citation)."

I removed it because a) I did not find it on the page listed; b) even if I had, the term still isn't documented by published scholarly source; c) this person simply cut and pasted the geographic from another entry; d) most importantly, the word is presented in a hateful way. Assuming the most generous interpretation, that the word is used to mean "African-American" or "Black person," I could conclude that the word isn't in itself hateful. But the example sentence presents a bald stereotype.

Who on earth thought this was appropriate? It wasn't verified by a reputable source, and it was presented in a hateful way. This sort of behavior is what may end up separating wiki from brittanica. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.47.169 (talk) 18:25, 22 May 2007

I don't know if it was meant to be presented in a hateful way (assuming good faith here) but I raised an eyebrow on this one too. I've never heard it before anyway. I'm reverting. If it comes back, we'll discuss further. --Midnightdreary 15:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops... it's already been reverted since I was here last. --Midnightdreary 15:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

using this logic, the article on the KKK is racist as well. i can't understand how you saw this as racist. 71.60.151.41 21:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I was about to remove this myself. I can't find any reference to this term anywhere else as being part of the Pittsburgh dialect, so whether or not it was intended as racist vandalism, it has nothing to do with the subject of the article. No other site devoted to Pittsburghese (including www.pittsburghese.com) lists it, and I've never heard the term, despite my Yinzer roots. The only reference given is a Turkish-English dictionary, which doesn't prove anything about the word being part of Pittsburgh English.

Also, it does sound like racist vandalism. Did the author really think "Negro" was a better definition than "Black person", "African American", "Person of color", etc.? And why pick an example sentence that portrays blacks as criminals?

If the author comes forward and provides some evidence that this term should be included, then it should be. Otherwise, it should remain deleted. Seansinc 19:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

About /l/ -> [w]

Under the list of phonological features, the one describing the /l/ -> [w] allophony gives the example "color something like [kʌwɚ]"; in my experience, it's more like [kʌlɚ]; the /l/ becomes [w] only where it becomes velarized ("dark" l) in standard American English -- when it's not directly in front of a nucleus. - 207.255.69.226 22:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

"or" for "ur" substitution

Project editors: please add information and citations for the Pittsburgh/Western PA speech substitution that causes the General American pronunciation of "during" to become "door-ing." (Sorry, I'm not a linguist, so I don't know the phonetic alphabet symbols or authoritative sources.) Anecdotally, this seems to occur when the "ur" sound follows an initial consonant, especially "d," but not when "ur" is in the initial position. E.g., "urgent" retains a General American pronunciation in the Pittsburgh area. However, in the post-consonant position in some area speakers, "tour" becomes "tore," "poor" becomes "pour" and "rural" becomes "roar-ul." The most noticable case, I believe, is "ur" folllowing initial "d," as in "during" / "door-ing." Mike sheridan 19:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

You Guys

I know that "you guys" was already previously mentioned, but I did not see a complete meaning to this vocabulary. "You guys" does refer to a group of two or more people, as stated. One fact that makes this truly Southwestern Pennsylvanian is that the phrase refers to a group of two or more people that may include people of both genders. This is what makes the use of "you guys" distinct to the area. If there are no objections, I believe this needs to be clarified and added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.43.98.145 (talk) 03:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

!!NOTICE: PAGE OVERHAUL IN EXACTLY ONE WEEK!!

I moved this to its own subpage. This should make the rest of the talk page more readable. —jakarr 23:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

'n'at

I have no links to back this up, but I've heard folks in the Chicago area use "and that" similarly. IE, in place of "and such things". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.248.233 (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2007

Well done!

Just a note to say that I found this page to be exceptionally well organized; I wish all the pages on {{English dialects by continent}} were similarly organized. 68.238.229.137 (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just posting to second that remark. This page is pretty well put together, though I'm not a fan of IPA pronunciations as I've never taken the time to learn them. I have a lot of family from the burgh and spent a good portion of my early childhood there. The one aspect of the Pittsburgh accent that I find to be most noticeable and the one that is still part of the way I talk is the use of a falling intonation at the end of questions. Everyone notices it about me, and it's usually how I peg people as being from the burgh. -Gulp Dratsum (talk) 17:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

"O" Fronting

There is nothing in this article about the fronting of "o's", which seems to be quite common in Pittsburgh. I realize this is more of a Midland trait, and that it is not necessarily unique to Pittsburgh; however, I think it should be mentioned because it distinguishes the Pittsburgh dialect from the nearby Inland North. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"Needs -ed"

I don't know if this is Pittsburgh/Western-PA-specific, but a part of the dialect which I've never noticed anywhere else is the "needs -ed" construction. For instance, one might say, "That shirt needs cleaned" rather than "That shirt needs to be cleaned." I'm from Johnstown, so I imagine that the dialect holds true in Pittsburgh as well. Any thoughts? AramKolesar (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the [Pennsylvania Dutch English] article, so this construction appears at least elsewhere in PA. I can't say where else it is used because I generally only notice it when another person finds my phrasing to be strange. —jakarr 23:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ja-eat

Anywhere else in the US? I know in picksburgh fer sure... Great page by the way... Wamnet (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:16, 11 July 2008

Two long open vowels?

The article states /aw/ = [äː], /ay/ = [ɑː]. So these are still distinct then? Does either coincide with the start vowel? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 08:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

According to J.C. Wells, in western PA tire, tower and tar can either be: 1.) All distinct 2.) All identical or 3.) Tire and tar can be distinct, as [ar] and [ɑr] respectively, with tower being the same as one or the other. Also according to Wells, in western PA tile and towel can merge as [tɑ̟w]; but both remain distinct from tall, which would be something like [tɒw] or [tɔw]. Your question was 2 years ago, so this is a bit of a late answer, you might say :) 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Shift

Most vowel changes in Pittsburgh English constitute a chain shift (ɑɪ, ɑʊ, ʌ> ɑ; ɑ > ɔ), yet there is no reference to this in the article (which instead speculates on obscure and unlikely causes for the changes such as "Slavic influence" - which are totally unnecessary if we seee them as stages of a chain shift.) Also, the page is poorly organized for an encyclopedic entry (it reads more like an essay or even a glossary at times) and may have to be completely rewritten after the model of articles on other regional American dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.224.88 (talk) 23:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

perogi and kolbassi - not unique at all

These terms are hardly unique - these foods and their names are common to areas where Slavic peoples settled, i.e., the entire western prairies of Canada (Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta). --Fremte (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

needs done

I lived in the Pittsburgh area for the first thirty years of my life. Some of the things in this article don't ring a bell at all. However, the dropped "to be" is familiar. Remember Shakespear's famous "or not". Actually, the first time I got "caught" on this I thought about it for a moment and realized that it's not simply a grammer mistake. It's a different tence. It's more imperitive. "The cat wants to go out" means when you get around to it let the cat go out. "The cat wants out" means if you value you skin, let the cat go out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.139.197 (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

needs done

I lived in the Pittsburgh area for the first thirty years of my life. Some of the things in this article don't ring a bell at all. However, the dropped "to be" is familiar. Remember Shakespear's famous "or not". Actually, the first time I got "caught" on this I thought about it for a moment and realized that it's not simply a grammer mistake. It's a different tense. It's more imperitive. "The cat wants to go out" means when you get around to it let the cat go out. "The cat wants out" means if you value you skin, let the cat go out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.139.197 (talk) 00:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Dennis Miller

One can hear the most local of Pittsburgh pronunciation features, /aʊ/ monophthongization, in Dennis Miller's speech. I watched him on Jay Leno and I was really surprised to hear him do that, especially in an interview on national television. He's a prominent example of someone who maintains this feature. Just something interesting I noticed. Thegryseone (talk) 06:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ron Paul is another famous speaker of Pittsburghese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegryseone (talk • contribs) 01:13, 2 November 2009

The dropping of 'to be' ("The car needs washed") seems to extend considerably eastward from Pittsburgh. Whenever I see a similar construction in an eBay listing, the seller is invariably somewhere in west or central Pennsylvania. There is an old joke in Pittsburgh that, when Hamlet is formed there, the soliloquy begins, "Or not - that is the question".76.247.165.49 (talk) 15:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

References need to be rewritten

The references need to be written with Wikipedia-style footnotes, not APA-style indentations like a research paper in college. Does somebody want to fix this?Jgera5 (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Editing

It would be helpful if the pronunciations, which seem key to understanding this page, were explained on the main page. For example I cannot fathom what this means:

   * extreme fronting of /oʊ/ (Kurath and McDavid 1961; Labov et al. 2001; Evanini 2008)

   Examples: go is pronounced [ɡɜʊ]; (Evanini 2008) 

Since pronunciation is the point maybe some actual real world examples of what the word would sound like? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.8.201 (talk) 05:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• That's why there's a link to International Phonetic Alphabet. There's no point copying the entire IPA article here just so you don't have to click the link. Darkxsun (talk) 08:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Seen

Somebody more qualified than me could add a point about 'seen', as in 'I seen him there' as opposed to the standard English 'I saw him there'.

To me, it seems to be something that has remained even as the wider population has had their pittsburghese diluted... —Preceding unsigned comment added by J2Kubus (talk • contribs) 00:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Old references?

I have NEVER herd anyone say "Carbon Oil", also the "reference" is from the late 40's... which is probably why we call it Kerosene. However my family does call chipmunks grinnies even though it has the same reference year.

Yinz seems to be at it's peak of use for now, it might be generation dependant as nobody my age (20) or younger seems to use it at a noticible rate.199.43.48.129 (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Past version of "cleanup" tag

A couple months ago, the "cleanup" tag at the top of the article looked like this:

Now, someone has reverted the tag back to its normal version. Since the old tag was perfectly relevant to the subject of the article (and hilarious), I think it should be reverted back again. Who else is in favor of returning the tag back to the version shown above? —Reelcheeper (talk) 22:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

• I agree Darkxsun (talk) 23:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia guidelines, "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." There is no evidence, either in the article itself or anywhere else, that any of the pronunciations on the deleted tag are actually heard in Pittsburgh. Rather, the deleted tag is a parody of stereotyped, working-class speech. Pghlinguist (talk) 13:31, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course it's a parody! One of the reasons I parodied the banner was because it existed, yet there are comments on the discussion page on how well the article is organized. While only the MOST unsophisticated Yinzer would do all the things indicated within two sentences, every alteration of the banner (save for one) is referenced in the article:

• "redd up" for the verbs "clean" or "tidy," the exact spelling not withstanding.
• Dropping of "to be"
• "Yinz"
• Dropping of syllables--"cohairnt" was a often-used pronunciation of "coherent" at my high school in Hollidaysburg, PA--this specific one is not covered in the article
• "n'at" as an extender: "and so on and so forth..."
• "ascared" is not covered in the article, but then again, neither is "Picksburgh"
• positive "anymore"

If clean-up of the article is still needed, we should beckon our fellow Yinzers to the task in their native language (even if I am a "Yunzer").Weyandt (talk) 14:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Minor edits

I have made the following edits: 1. Deleted some material about yinz that was sourced to a personal blog, not a scholarly research article or site. Moved some other material about yinz that was in the paragraph about Yinzers to the actual entry for yinz later in the page. Added a claim about uses of yinz and sourced it to a scholarly conference paper, which I also added to the reference list. 2. Deleted references to Evanini 2008, because this source is not listed in the reference list. Please remember to add any new in-text references to the reference list following the article! 3. Flagged some unsourced additions to the section on lexical items and deleted one (on "dip") that seemed harmful. 4. Clarified the entry on yinz and sourced clarifications to Montgomery 2002, which I also added to the reference list. 5. Added a reference to Eberhardt 2009 in the sentence on African-American English in Pittsburgh and to the reference list.Pghlinguist (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

To Be

Most places other than Pittsburgh use the words to be commonly in a sentence. Like "the car needs to be washed", but in Pittsburgh that is left out. Pittsburghers would just say "car needs washed" or "the car needs washed". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emh54 (talk • contribs) 16:30, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Mmmbye?

I see that "MmmBye" was added to the list of Pittsburghese terms, but I'm not sure that it's specifically from the Pittsburgh area. I think people from every region of America say "MmmBye", especially when they are in a hurry or just don't feel like putting a lot of effort into speaking. I'm going to delete it from the list, unless someone thinks it should stay. —Reelcheeper (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Are these really pittsburgh-specific?

A few of the examples are Pittsburgh-specific, but most of them sound familiar to me from when I lived in Chicago. In particular, "didja" for "did you", and sometimes turning "you" and "to" into "yuh" and "tuh". --Delirium 05:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A good half of the lexical entries are not unique to Pittsburgh. Some belong to general rapid speech, others to American English in general and even more to Greater NYC, all of New Jersey and Eastern Pennsylvania (esp. Hoagie!! in Philly and Southern Jersey). It's disinformation to say they belong to Pittsburgh. Therefore they shouldn't be on the list at all. -- CJ Withers 01:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

What I noticed about "hoagie" was that in Pittsburgh it means ANY submarine sandwich, while for people outside of Pittsburgh who use that word, it seems to mean a particular type of sub. So while it's generic for Pittsburgh, it's as specific as saying "BLT" for other places. That's based on attempting to read a menu in Buffalo, NY. Macoafi (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking a lot of the terms on that list are too general. For example, "cha" in whatcha doing, I think everyone does that. Some are good though, like hoagie, gumband, jaggerbush, younz, etc. I lived in NC for a while and people looked at me weird hearing me say those words. One addition I was thinking, is "warsh". As in "warsh the car" and "warshington". Sounds like "woorsh". Automagically 18:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, whatcha doing is probably universal among English speakers of all dialects. "Warsh" is definitely not just Philadelphia though; my mother says "warsh" and she grew up in L.A.. Angr (talk • contribs) 20:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Only a very few of these words are really Pittsburgh specific, like gumband. Some of them like "worsh" and "crick" come from the Scots-Irish American dialect which explains why they're found in scattered enclaves all over the place - including Pittsburgh, southern California, and parts of the southeast. Anyplace where the Scots-Irish settled in large numbers you're likely to hear them pronounced that way. Some of the other words are specific to the Rust Belt in general, not just Pittsburgh. They can be found from Washington-Baltimore all the way to Chicago. This goes in particular for the street-tough sounding blue collar pronunciations; I picked up a lot of it in Chicago and Pittsburgh's pronunciations don't sound much different. "Yinz" is specific to Pittsburgh but I've heard other variations of "you uns" used ranging from southern Illinois to the Navajo reservation in Arizona. Know what? I'd leave them all in. It's the unique combination that makes Pittsburgh English what it is, not just the few words that are specific only to da'Burgh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.94.203 (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2006

"picksburgh"

i've lived in pittsburgh all my life, and i hear people use this corruption a lot, much more than they do "yinz" or "jumbo". are there any objections to adding it? 71.60.151.41 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I heard that pronunciation a lot when I was growing up, too. I would be in favor of including it. Seansinc 16:40, 10 October 2007

(UTC) Having grown up in the Pittsburgh area, I can totally agree with your citing of "Picksburgh". I'd like to make "sment" (cement) my contribution to the list.

Yes, "picksburgh" or "pixburgh" is also wrongly used quite commonly.Surpmutin (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

/l/ vocalization

I wonder now if there's any research as to the origin of this one. Between Pittsburgh's large Polish population and the visual similarities between l and ł, I could see that being how l-as-w was adopted into Pittsburgh speech Macoafi (talk) 22:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Kabossy

I spent the first 17 years of my life in Pittsburgh, and I don't remember ever hearing the letter L in "kolbassi" actually be pronounced. Add in that cot/caught shift, and the pronunciation I grew up with is a lot closer to "kabossy" than anything else. Macoafi (talk) 22:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Pages

What is most needed is a person to track down the page numbers of the traditional inline citations that the article was written with. If I can get the papers I may be able to do some of the work myself. --Guerillero | My Talk 06:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Yunz

I've lived in Pittsburgh my whole life and I've never heard a real Pittsburgher say yunz. Real Pittsburghers say Yinz. Kennywood Park had a billboard advertising a new Hawaiian-themed section of the park that read "Aloha, yinz guys". Now that's Pittsburgh! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.132 (talk) 13:11, 9 November 2004‎

• Yes, well, I've also known Pittsburghers who distinguished sides of their family, who lived on opposite sides of the city, by whether they were Yinzers or Yunzers---whether they said yinz or yunz. Guess it just goes to show that regional variation is, well, regional. . . . Juicy 03:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• I say it all the time, yet never noticed if I say yunz or yinz, or a difference when others say it. I'm still not sure, hmm. It might even be possible for yenz. I'm confident, though, that the variation exists because the way people interpret things differently. Two people listening to the same person talking might call it different. Sounds like yieunz to me! Automagically 04:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• I lived in PA for a number of years, while a student at Penn State. I met people from all over the state there. I got the impression that Pittsburgh and points south is "yinz" territory, while "yunz" is what you hear to the north and east of there, i.e. places like State College, Bellefont, Altoona. I think both forms are restricted to south-western and central PA.

• I grew up about an hour north of Pittsburgh (Mars, PA), and I lived in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh during college, and I've never once heard it pronounced "yunz". We always said "yins" (which, incidentally, we would spell with an 's' on the rare occasions when we'd write it down -- notes passed in study hall or the like). A friend of mine, who's never lived in PA, swears he knew some "yunzers" from the Altoona area, but I have yet to meet one. Seansinc 18:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• I grew up in the city, and "yinz" is definitely the predominant pronounciation there. But that's all right, yinz are doing a great job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.156.36.103 (talk) 16:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• I came to Pittsburgh as a college freshman in 1969. My roommate was from the rural exurb of Canonsburg, Pennsylvania. He definitely said yuns, but when he wanted to be unambiguously plural, he's say yuns all. I never heard a Pittsburger use that plural form, and going west to Youngstown, Ohio (I later had a roommate from there), the word was yous or yus (like yuns without the n). I recall hearing both yuns and yins in Pittsburgh when I was a student.Douglas W. Jones (talk) 01:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

• I grew up in New Castle, PA, 1955-1973, 15 miles east of Youngstown, 50 miles North-Northwest of Pittsburgh, and I heard yinz all the time. MikeDoyle (talk) 04:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Merger Discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was silence and consensus to merge. Wolfdog (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

---

The sources that are directly used/claimed to support the existence of a Central Pennsylvania dialect on the page of that name are weak or potentially outdated, and, at any rate, central PA does not seem to be clearly defined as its own dialect region, though most of the info on that page can classify easily under the Western PA dialect. I went through the sources cited... Scanning Kurath for "central pennsylvania" on Google Books presents nothing indicating a dialect. I have no access to, or way to check, the Thomas or Carver sources. Also, frustratingly, for all three sources, no page numbers are given. Meanwhile, Kurath and Thomas's info may well be out of date. Fortunately, the Salvucci source gives insight into Kurath, Thomas, and Carver, presenting some evidence that central PA is both a linguistic sub-region (acc. Kurath) and is not its own linguistic sub-region (acc. Thomas, who lumps it with Western PA), while additionally showing that some areas of central PA are influenced by Pennsylvania German (acc. Carver; also mentioned by Kovecses). Lastly, I own the full Montgomery text, and it says nothing about central PA whatsoever.

More likely than having its own single dialect, the broad center of PA constitutes a crossroads for several relatively homogeneous and well-documented other dialects, as Labov, Ash, and Boberg's study demonstrates (see my prior comments here). Regardless, most of this article's information—seemingly referring to the geographic area around Centre County and west (of which Labov et al study specifically Stage College and identifies within the Western PA dialect)—matches and aligns easily with the information on Western Pennsylvania English and can be merged there. I'd be happy to do the merge if there is no dispute; I'd also be happy to merge any elements that other editors feel should be preserved. Wolfdog (talk) 22:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

• I have no strong objection. Scholarly opinions – like the forms of English spoken in Pennsylvania – are something of a mixed bag. Cnilep (talk) 07:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • OK. After seven days of no real opposition/discussion, I'm going to merge the page again to Western Pennsylvania English. I've already inserted some comments at WPE about central Pennsylvania features (also merging some of the key sources from this page into that one). Wolfdog (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

External link

I've just re-added an external link to "Pittsburgh Speech and Society". User:Sarahj2107 removed the link on 25 February with the edit summary, "cleaned up external links per WP:EL". Perhaps the editor considered the list excessive. It's not obvious to me, though, why this one is out while three similar links are in. For the record, Barbara Johnstone and Scott Kiesling, the creators of that web site, are university professors of sociolinguistics, and Johnstone has literally written the book on the dialect: Speaking Pittsburghese (Oxford, 2013). Cnilep (talk) 06:53, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

By the way, is the Clarion University link dead? It doesn't work for me. Cnilep (talk) 06:54, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Cnilep: The page was tagged as needing external links cleanup since 2011 so I removed links I thought didn't meet the WP:EL guidlines and should be removed per the WP:LINKFARM policy. I felt the website didn't add anything. Also, the society is not mentioned in the article apart from its use as a reference. The New York Times and PBS links provide more detailed information so I chose to keep them but I have no problem if other people want to remove them. The Clarion University is now dead for me as well and could also be removed. I can't remember if is was dead or not before but if it was I would have likely removed it.

I'm not going to argue to have it removed again but if it is such an important society perhaps that should be discussed in the article so people know why the link is there and how it relates to the article topic, and maybe an ISBN link to their book would be more appropriate than a link to their website. Sarahj2107 (talk) 08:36, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough; it's good to keep the number of external links reasonable. By the way, it isn't a scholarly society, just a web site. The word "society" refers to Pittsburgh society. Cnilep (talk) 02:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Reduplicated plural

Another characteristic of "Pittsburghese" is the use of the reduplicated plural. For example, when a waitress arrives at a group's table with their food orders, she may say, "Here's yinz's breakfastses." Lyttle-Wight (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Similarly, if a third person singular verb form ends in "-sts", it may be pronounced as if it were spelled "-stses". For example, I've heard "twistses" and "costses". Lyttle-Wight (talk) 03:00, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Undo the merge

The Central Pa Dialect page has been merged with the Pittsburg dialect page because of silence of fewer than 30 days. This is silly for at least 2 reasons. 1. The two accents aren't the same at all and 2. This isn't a page we watch and follow so what's with the arbitrary and extremely short time period for the "debate"? I open the page about twice a year, shortly before I send it to someone as a reference, as I did today.

The objection to the page has always been that there are too few external references. Well the problem is that the external refs are not on the web but are in the Penn State Libraries where MS thesis work is kept. This work is not digitized and it is too difficult to access unless you are living in State College.

In the past I have written to a couple of professors who have published on Central PA dialect and asked them to add refs (I have no direct access to the academic press) but without much luck. Just now I did a quick search and have found several academic works referenced in other sources and some maps that clearly delineate the Central PA dialect regions. So what is driving this urgency to merge two topics that are clearly not suitable? And, the larger question - What is the motivation for doing it? Why as a Pittsburgh person do you care if we think we don't talk like you do?

Also, where can I find the old page? There was a lot of work there and I want to keep it.

And "goonie" certainly is a word for a rock of a certain size. When I saw that addition to the Central PA page I wrote to all my cousints and we had a good laugh. My brother-in-law still marvels at the woman in Middleburg asking him "Where younz at?" so that she could direct the tow truck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parsnip13 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

"Go redd up at the spicket before dinner"

this sentence sounds stupid, as redd up means roughly "to clean or tidy" or in its primary meaning " to put things back where they belong". 75.117.178.101 (talk) 15:10, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

The section just above this one makes the same point, but appears never to have been addressed. What example would you suggest instead? (I'm not from Western PA, so anything I came up with wouldn't sound authentic) --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:03, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Despite the lack of response here, considering that the example has been questioned twice by native speakers, is unsourced, and does not provide any meaningful clarification of the preceding description (which is unambiguous anyway), I've removed the offending example. --Fru1tbat (talk) 13:28, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

A true yinzer would say something like, "Hey, yinz kids go warsh up at the spicket before yinz come in for dinner." Lyttle-Wight (talk) 23:20, 12 July 2016 (UTC)