Talk:Salman Schocken

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Shlomo?

The hewiki article is at he:שלמה_זלמן_שוקן which translates to "Shlomo Zalman Schocken", and the external links in it seem to use both names interchangeably. In that article (written by a member of his family, which still owns/publishes Haaretz), there is שלמה זלמן שוקן (Shlomo Zalman Schocken) in the second sentence, but in the fourth sentence, the "Shlomo" is dropped (זלמן שוקן; Zalman Schocken). Also, in the first sentence under the section שלושים הספרים הראשונים (The first thirty books), it says לזלמן שוקן (Salman Schocken), without Shlomo, and with an "S" instead of "Z", even though it's the same zayin after a leading lamed, which I guess has to do with grammar, and maybe a quirk in Google translate?).

So, my question is, should the article title be "Shlomo Zalman Schocken", and maybe have a lead like:

Shlomo Zalman Schocken, (also Salman Schocken; Hebrew: שלמה זלמן שוקן; October 30, 1877 – August 6, 1959) was...

Also, as an aside, is Shlomo really the correct transliteration of שלמה? Seems like that would equate to something like "Shl?m?h" (obviously, I'm a total Hebrew novice). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 07:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Hello User:AlanM1,

"Shlomo" is in my view a perfectly good transliteration of the Hebrew name of King שלמה of the Hebrew Bible.

As for Mr. Zalman Schoken, which was the public name under which he was widely known in the Jewish and non-Jewish world, the confusion is very simple. The "S" at the beginning of a word in German, is really pronounced "Z." And so his name is really Zalman Schocken, which is the correct English transliteration of his Hebrew name זלמן. In Germany, where he was born and lived most of his life, the transliteration was Salman, but the German pronunciation of his name was still the correct Hebrew one, i.e., Zalman. I hope this helps. Thanks for your work here. Regards, warshy ^(¥¥) 17:08, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Now that I corrected all the mistakes in my reply to you, and also had time to have a first look at the article, my conclusion is the following: The article should be moved to "Zalman Schocken," and the first line would give his full name as Shlomo Zalman Schoken, or Solomon Zalman Schocken. Thanks, warshy ^(¥¥) 17:27, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder about the S/Z thing in German – I forgot about that (Mutti would be ashamed ).

FWIW, at Solomon, the lead says "Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה, Shlomoh" (i.e., with a trailing "h"). I also noticed at Tidhar's front page (which is in English), there is a mention of "Shlomoh Shtamfer", whose page (in Hebrew) shows his name is also שלמה. I don't recall Schocken being referred to as "Solomon ..." when I was researching this, and Google shows just 5 hits for "Solomon Zalman Schocken" and no hits at all for "Solomon Salman Schocken". —[AlanM1(talk)]— 23:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Further to "Solomon": the first two of the five hits, to Facebook posts by Camp Ramah about a "Solomon Zalman Schocken award", were of some concern because the award is given by the JTS, but that seems to be the wrong name of the award per their announcement of the award, which calls it "The Salman Schocken Award".

The other three hits, to the Shmidman paper, are for a cite to Reshuyot le-ḥatan (authored by Schocken and others), which was Shmidman's choice of transliteration of this Hebrew source. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 00:23, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

My Vater had a Mutti also, but she was my Oma... . You did some good research here.

The lead says Salman Z. Schocken, and that is wrong and should be corrected. But how? There is one more complication, since Zalman (זלמן ) is actually just the German/Yiddish version of the name Shlomo/Solomon. He was known as Zalman Schocken, but his name in the US during his lifetime and after seems to have kept the German orthography, Salman. If this is correct, then the lead should say S. Salman Schocken or Shlomo Zalman Schocken, in my view. Thanks, warshy ^(¥¥) 17:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Burial place

Wikidata says Schocken is buried at Har HaMenuchot, citing import from hewiki as a source, but there is no further source cited at hewiki. It is consistent with many (uncitable) geneology websites that claim a location of Givat Shaul. Any ideas for finding a source, like maybe newspaper archives for The Times of Israel or Haaretz? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 08:01, 16 December 2019 (UTC)