Talk:Star Wars: Dark Forces

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Good article Star Wars: Dark Forces has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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WikiProject Video games (Rated GA-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of video games on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
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Nature of Dark Troopers[edit]

Is it just me, or does this edit make no sense? You can't "assemble" a human trooper; you can only assemble a droid. --DocumentN (talk) 22:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you're having so much difficulty understanding the entire point of the edit, which is that the game never DIRECTLY states that they are droids. Using the word assemble is at best an implication, obviously not a direct statement. Furthermore, it in theory one might need to "assemble" a complex exosuit that is not a droid. Additionally, on the topic of "making sense," how much sense does it make that a man "obsessed with the honor of personal combat" would create an army of droids as his ultimate weapon? Regardless, I'm not arguing that the Dark Troopers are not droids, merely stating that the game never explicitly calls them droids. Some guy (talk) 23:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
(1) It's because I misread the text I was correcting. Still, I don't see how it's useful for the article to discuss the distinction when it amounts to the same thing (that DTs being droids is canon). (2) An exosuit on its own couldn't be referred to as a trooper. (3) Enough, but that's irrelevant to the edit in question. (4) Acknowledged. --DocumentN (talk) 00:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Technology[edit]

I mentioned this before but only got one response... how many gameplay staples did Dark Forces add to the first-person shooter genre? I originally thought DF added the ability to look up and down, jump, crouch, and use a headlamp (flashlight precursor) and "nightvision) (I.R. Goggles). I can't remember if I thought it was the first game with secondary fire, but I did recently remove a long-unsourced claim to this effect from the article.

According to free look (thank DocumentN), Marathon was the first FPS to have the ability to look up and down (though this is not mentioned in Marathon article and is unsourced in the free look article, and Wikipedia is not a valid source anyway...). I am pretty sure that Marathon and Rise of the Triad are tied for the distinction of the first alternate-fire in an FPS (according to WP, they were released on the same day, but again I am using WP as a source which would not be valid in the actual article).

In addition to being immediately relevant to this article, this information would also go well on the first-person shooter and Duke Nukem 3D pages, which largely exist in an alternate universe where Doom was the first FPS game and Duke Nukem 3D was the second, and all features of DN3D were revolutionary new features never before seen in the genre. Some guy (talk) 01:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

All that comes to mind for me is that 1993's Pathways Into Darkness had a flashlight and night vision, although the latter was basically a flashlight that turned your display red. The Colony was another early FPS that had light and darkness, but only after a fashion (edit: meaning black lines on white versus white lines on black, IIRC). --DocumentN (talk) 02:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure Dark Forces was the first FPS to display the player's weapons in the right-hand side of the screen. I've looked through gameplay footage of all the games prior to DF and the only one where weapons appear on the right is The Elder Scrolls, where the player's sword appears in the right, but I can't find any where guns appear in the right. The only one I can find is Bethesda Softworks' The Terminator: Future Shock, but I think this was released after Dark Forces. Worth a mention, surely? Cunningmunki (talk) 12:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Total rewrite[edit]

Dear Bill, I have noticed that you have totally rewritten this article. I want to make you aware that the article is the product of effort from numerous editors so I don't think it is helpful for a single editor to initiate a total rewrite without any discussion and consensus.

I have saved your rewrite here: [1]

Can you please discuss large-scale changes here on the talk page before making them. Your input is appreciated, however it would be preferable if you merged your work in with the existing work, instead of totally replacing it. Thanks. Tonicthebrown (talk) 09:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for providing an explanation of your revert here. I've had my eye on the original article for a while now and I had noted that it was massively unsourced, there were multiple unreliable sources, A whole section of original research, and many WP:MOS violations. I understand that this is the product of multiple editor's work, which is why during my rewrite I used the topics already on the page as a starting place so really the work has already been "merged" and not been totally replaced.
The resulting rewrite was completely sourced by reliable sources while still covering the major points that existed in the article. The only significantly shorter section is the plot section, which doesn't have all the characters in a bulleted list and could use some slight expansion of the story. Apart from that, the new version was near Good Article quality, and along with the other games in the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series which are Good Articles (Apart from Star Wars: Jedi Knight (series) which is getting there), it could end up being part of a good topic. Is there anything you want to keep from the old version that is not present in the new version? (Btw, sadly DF-21.net doesn't satisfy the self published sources section of the reliable sources policy so it cannot be used as a source) Bill (talk|contribs) 15:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I am floored that Bill's rewrite was reverted, and the cludge of uncited original research and trivia restored. I think Bill quite aptly followed WP:BOLD -- the follow-up reversion and discussion, too, align with our civility guidelines...but, really, seems wholly unnecessary. (I took this article off my watchlist after I saw that it was so effectively overhauled; I didn't think my minor, passing contributions would be necessary any more.) Let's please restore Bill's rewrite; if there are sore feelings about removed or changed content, they're welcome to cite sources are toss 'em in. But to leave in place now the awkward uncited OR and summary (and even technically weird -- why is there a citation in a section header? -- is just silly.
Also, Tonic, please request speedy deletion of the "saved" rewrite. While a good-faith effort, the rewrite is more aptly accessiblhe here. The talk sub-page fails to retain editing history, and even the use of non-free images doesn't meet the WP:NFCC. --EEMIV (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You do not need consensus to rewrite or copy edit an article. Besides, Bill's rewrite makes the article match the guidelines set by WikiProject Video games and removes original research and unverified claims. The revert removed citations and even a fully sourced and presented reception section. I am definitely in favour of Bill's rewrite. This looks to be a case of WP:OWN to me. --.:Alex:. 17:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The above users are correct - consensus is not needed for a bold change, especially one that gets rid of so much irrelevant trivia and original research like Bill's did. Tonic, who else aside from yourself disagreed with the change? NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 17:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I am restoring Bill's rewrite. Tonic's reversion and addition of a single source does not seem a sufficient "alternate direction" in improving the article than what Bill put together, and it seems silly to have an excellent rewrite sitting in the edit history but not visible. Tonic, the earlier version of course is accessible via the edit history; you can easily find text to restore (and cite) if you want, or use it as a starting point for more involved work in user space. However, I'd encourage to use the rewrite I've restored as the starting place for any further work. --EEMIV (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Bill's new version is without a doubt much, much better. It will almost always be the case on Wikipedia that a number of different editors have contributed to an article, but if one person goes ahead and rewrites the whole article while the other editors occasionally make a relatively minor edit, then that one person should be applauded for taking initiative and being WP:BOLD. Their improvements shouldn't be removed because such a large amount work has come so unexpectedly. As mentioned above, beware of WP:OWN! Una LagunaTalk 20:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I support Bill's version. It certainly looks better and has gotten rid of much of the policy- and guideline-violations that were in the previous revision. Jappalang (talk) 22:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, that's fine. In my defence I had been watching this article for over 12 months and it hasn't changed very much, so I interpreted this as a consensus. It surprised me to see such a large rewrite occur so suddenly. Tonicthebrown (talk) 08:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Gameplay[edit]

I mostly like the new version, it is a bit sterile for my tastes but it is more encycopledic. However, gameplay section is childish and horrible. We do not need to explain the most basic of core first-person shooter mechanics. The gameplay section would be much better off going into more detail about the gameplay, and what makes it unique, not 'things shoot projectiles which subtract health'. I think the gameplay section is perhaps the most important section of an article about a game, and it is far too common for these sections to be neglected and poorly detailed. Since all my previous content has been removed, I am somewhat relunctant to write anything new, but I hope someone can expand the gameplay section and remove the trivialities. Also, I am surprised that someone would write Dark Troopers as "darktroopers" - this suggests to me a serious lack of familiary with the game's content. This rewrite seems like a cookie-cutter article by someone who has never played the game... Some guy (talk) 06:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

There does need to be some explanation of how the game works per WP:VG/GL, we shouldn't let the reader assume too much about the details of the gameplay. The section is a little short so please don't feel reluctant to add to it. The issues the section had before were that it was unsourced and described the game with comparisons to Doom and other games. Technical developments like that are now covered in the development section. I'll have a look in the history and see what I can find and source. But again, please don't feel reluctant to edit, change, move around stuff, because we're all looking to improve the article here. By the way, this series of games is one of my favourites but I'll admit I haven't played Dark Forces for a very long time. I had forgotten how "Dark Troopers" was spelt so I checked the article with the interview with Daron Stinnet and Justin Chin that I was reading at the time, which had the single word spelling. Upon checking the official LucasArts page on Dark Troopers and the Essential Guide to Droids, you are right and it is two words. Thanks for the feedback. Bill (talk|contribs) 13:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Sorry I was harsh. The new content is a little better but I still don't like the wording (for example heavy use of passive voice), so I guess I'll try to fix it later. However, I think we should assume people know how an FPS works - that's why we have interlinking, so if they somehow have no idea, they can go read the first-person shooter article. I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing it to Doom - Doom was practically the single standard used to judge FPS games until Half-Life came out. First-person shooters used to be referred to as "Doom clones" and pretty much all games of the Dark Forces era were and are heavily compared to Doom. Some guy (talk) 20:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I've had a go on fixing the article based on your comments. I've gone ahead and summarised the description of the gameplay elements. I read through it a few times and I suppose you're right, it is sort of redundant saying getting hit reduces health lol. I've also added a paragraph about how DF expands on the Doom gameplay to the gameplay section. However I've added more of the Doom clone viewpoint in the development section as I believe that's the most appropriate place for it. It's basically talking about developments as opposed to purely describing the gameplay. Bill (talk|contribs) 08:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I rewrote most of the gameplay section as it still suffered from awkward structure and wording. I hope the new version is satisfactory. Some guy (talk) 10:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Looks good to me, nice work. Is there anything else in the article you feel needs some serious attention? If the rest of the article is up to scratch we can start polishing it, fixing typos, rewording dodgy sentences, etc. before submitting it for a Good Article review. Bill (talk|contribs) 11:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not good with the ref system, it's confusing to me and I think properly formatted ref tags use way too much space in the raw text and make it a huge chore to edit. I used the game as a reference several times but since I don't know how to reuse refs, it is listed as four or five separate entries in the reflist. If someone wants to fix that, that would be good I guess. Some guy (talk) 02:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(←outdent) I've sorted those. I think the article's in pretty good shape now so unless anybody thinks there's still more to do/fix then I'm going to submit it for WP:GAN soon. --Bill (talk|contribs) 17:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)