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viewtalkeditchanges

YouTube Wikiproject Proposal[edit]

I have just proposed a YouTube Wikiproject that would cover any Articles relevant to YouTube People, Culture, Organisations and Business

I would love to get lots of support for this --- :D Derry Adama (talk)

RFC: Italics for websites[edit]

Casting a wider net on this issue, after a disagreement at Talk:Kotaku#Italics. Historically, WP:VG has drawn the line for using italics on print sources (magazines, books, etc.) and no italics for all websites. This is reflected in the usage of italics at Template:Video game reviews since at least 2010. Recently it has come to my attention that the line "Website titles may or may not be italicized depending on the type of site and what kind of content it features. Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content should generally be italicized (Salon.com or The Huffington Post). Online encyclopedias and dictionaries should also be italicized (Scholarpedia or Merriam-Webster Online). Other types of websites should be decided on a case-by-case basis." has been added to the MOS:TITLE page. Should the project revise our current italics guidelines on video game websites? I don't have a strong horse in this race, other than my desire for consistency. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

We should take our cue from WP:MOS regardless. And I suspect that on MOS:TITLE (or WP:Article titles?) that such a guideline may not be here to stay in that exact form. Or even, that there should be an RFC at some place more public, because that's a pretty far-reaching change. I.e., defer until the issue is certainly settled. --Izno (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
There isn't a disagreement. Italics have been used for Kotaku since 2014 and aren't suddenly in question because of BRD. The line at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Major_works: "Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content should generally be italicized" has existed in the MoS since 2011, but lived at WP:ITALICS before its more recent move to the /Titles page. What italics guideline do we have that needs to be updated? The MoS supersedes any guideline we'd need. I'll add to the point that "Kotaku is a blog" that (1) it is a news blog, and (2) that blogs are still creative works like magazines and are italicized by Chicago, the only stylebook I know to address blogs specifically. And there is precedent for using italics for websites in the reviews template, though it was inconsistent before all italics were stripped in the transition to Lua. WPVG has not in any recent history drawn the line for italics at print sources, and if anything, there is an already acknowledged, clear case based on the MoS (and WTVG discussion history) to update the reviews template with italics for online vg news sources—it's just a matter of someone drafting the code. – czar 06:15, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not bothered which way this goes. My concern on this matter is the same one I raised ~6 weeks ago, and that was some game websites were italicised and others were not. As long as the result is applied consistently across all game websites then I'm fine. --The1337gamer (talk) 12:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm with The1337gamer. I was not aware of the MoS guideline until Czar brought it up, instead assuming that the precedent set at the Reviews template would hold. As I said, I'm not strongly in favor of one or the other, merely that we formalize our usage. It's slightly disappointing that The1337gamer's thread from six weeks ago did not result in a consensus; hence I bring it up again here, not knowing of the prior discussion even! Axem Titanium (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Anyone else interested in chiming in? This might have an impact on you! Axem Titanium (talk) 05:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm all for consistency, so I'm fine either way. If you're asking for my opinion, I am leaning more towards not using italics for websites, just so it easier to see in a glance what kind of source it is. --Soetermans. T / C 06:29, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • My proposal would be to add "* Use italics for online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content" to WP:VG/GL beneath the bullet about italicizing video games. This would bring it in line with the exact language at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Major_works. {{vg reviews}} should be updated accordingly as well. – czar 05:26, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
I'd be in favor of this proposal: As stated above, WP:MOS supersedes any WikiProject's style guidelines. My interpretation is also that it's already conventional for the reviews template to be updated such that the titles of online sources with original content are italicized. —zziccardi (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's try this again...new Sega article structure[edit]

So my previous proposal got shut down by @Lukeno94:, due to, in his view, poor grammar and no references.

So I redid mainly the first article to meet his standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tripple-ddd/sandbox

Purpose: Replacing content of Sega development studios, and also merging it with following pages Sega AM2, SEGA Hitmaker, Amusement Vision, Sega WOW, Smilebit. The above has a better detail and sourced content of it's material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tripple-ddd/sandbox2

Purpose: Actual list of all Sega games, Sega developed and published, as a previous one did not exist. Highlights the above mentioned departments and studios and accompanies them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tripple-ddd/sandbox3

A new list for Sega's arcade games, replacing the former List of Sega arcade games. This will the List of Sega arcade video games, developed or published by Sega. It has no medal games, photobooth machines and prize games, or mere distrubution of titles unrelated to Sega. These games will be featured in their own respetive articles such as medal games, where all of Sega's (and other companies) medal games will be included. Same goes for Purikara machines.

Opinions?

--Tripple-ddd (talk) 21:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Proposal 1: I'm still objecting to your arbitrary merger. Sega AM2 received coverage of their own and worked on a huge number of major Sega arcade games. You've never once acknowledged this. This means they easily justify their own article. Hitmaker are smaller, but as the developers of Crazy Taxi and the Virtua Tennis series, they probably justify their own article. Amusement Vision were owned by Sega but weren't a Sega development studio, so that's hardly an appropriate merger. Sega Wow may justify a merger, as may Smilebit. But with other companies, even the minor subsidaries often get their own articles (see EA Montreal and various other EA ones), and I see 0 value in having one ridiculously oversized article which will be poorly structured and make very little sense. Your modified article is as bad as it ever was, with dates that are absolutely all over the place, lots of single-sentence lines, tables with totally unstandardized widths and laughably obvious grammatical issues ("non-japanese company" is in the first freaking sentence of the article!)
  • Proposal 2: Terrible idea. As has been explained to you before, a list like that would be grossly oversized - and indeed, the article in your sandbox is just that. Plenty of totally arbitrary sections as well. As was pointed out before, if you must make these lists, then have them by decade.
  • Proposal 3: You're replacing a poorly formatted and thought-out list with another poorly formatted and thought-out list. Bad idea.
  • In conclusion; please make proposals with things that meet Wikipedia's standards, and please actually listen to people's responses - in the first draft, I'm struggling to see how you've changed anything since multiple editors (not just me, and stop trying to make it look like I'm the only objector here) pointed out how bad your formatting was, and even after we pointed out specific issues... issues which you've blatantly ignored. Short form; sort out your mess, or stop mucking around. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself over and over again. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:25, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


  • For the 2 game lists (sandbox2 + 3) you should probably take PresN's suggestion from the last discussion. Break them down into multiple articles "List of Sega video games (1980–89)", "List of Sega video games (1990–99)" and so on. Might want to use a sortable table instead of just bullet points for them as well; then readers can sort by year, title, platform, development division, etc. --The1337gamer (talk) 22:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: Well I'm not seeing the issue with grammar and formatting in the first article, all I can do is to leave it someone else to fix that, as I pretty much did my best. Your point on "non-japanese" also makes pretty much no sense. And I did change stuff: do you not see the over 100 citations I added? Regarding the importance of each studio, AM2, AM1/Sega Wow/, Hitmaker/AM3 are all equally important in arcade games, and Amusement Vision was a Sega development studio, got a source on that? The EA studios are different, because they were always official subsidiaries, housed in different locations. The Sega studios were always in Tokyo, and effectively only the names changed, like I said it is complicated and treating it the same as Nintendo Entertainment Analysis & Development is the better solution. And the article does make sense, dates aren't all over the place, I already mentioned how it works. When an employee gets a producer or manager position, he gets a quick biography. I also don't see the oversized issue, I have yet to come across videogame articles or lists where this is an issue, so please point me to one. Articles that have been around for year upon years, without much complaining that you are judging as a "mess". But I already said this, like you said we are repeating ourselfes. What gives you authority on reverting anyways and judging long-standing statusquo articles such as this one as a mess? You haven't created a single video game article, and neither contribute much. My articles are sourced, and are just "different" mediocore articles, neitehr striving for GA or FA status. Nobody but you is objecting, and insist that they are objectively worse. I might have to talk to an Admin if you continue to be unreasonable.--Tripple-ddd (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • How does my point on "non-japanese" not make sense? Anyone who understands the English language knows that it should be Japanese, not japanese! And that's the first sentence - if you are this incompetent when it comes to writing, then what are you doing here? The issue is not your referencing, it's the fact that you are not listening to anything people have to say about the issues with your grammar and syntax, even when we repeatedly tell you what is wrong. Amusement Vision was a second-party studio as the article describes, and Sega development studios would be first-party companies. It doesn't matter one jot where the subsidiaries were housed. The dates are all over the place, and because of your hopeless formatting, it makes it a nightmare to read. "You haven't created a single video game article" - sorry, but you're totally and utterly wrong there. In fact, it's hilarious that you can say that, because it just proves your incompetence further. Colin McRae Rally (video game) - note the lack of two hundred thousand single-sentence lines there. "Nobody but you is objecting" - probably because most people have given up on you and your WP:IDHT ways, but people certainly have objected in previous discussions. You keep saying the same rubbish about GAs and FAs over and over... but your proposals are objectively worse in numerous ways that I, and others, have repeatedly described over and over. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:59, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Oh, and trying to force your changes in in the middle of this discussion is just plain dumb. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
So, it doesn't look like any of these proposal's are picking up any steam. I know there have been a lot of changes and reverts, but is it possible to bring things back to however they were prior to all of Triple ddd's changes, and just work on sprucing that up, rather than all of these major restructures? Sergecross73 msg me 12:38, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • On the articles in question, I don't think there's any major difference right now - indeed, one of them is simply a redirect. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:23, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • So the articles' current status is largely how they were before Triple ddd started all of his restructures? Sergecross73 msg me 14:43, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@Lukeno94: Seems like you are continuening to judge things personally and not make proper arguments. You are the only one claiming that the articles are a nightmare to read (and you can't compare your game article with my article documenting employees), and you are also the only one who keeps reverting articles (with a couple of exceptions on Sonic Team and Sega AM2 articles). Also nobody else said that the article is objectively worse. Who else said so? Point me to it. You say it doesn't matter that that the subsidiaries were always first party in-house studios located in the same place, well to your standards what does matter? You are claiming that AV is a second party studio, but do not provide a source. You clearly don't even seem to care given you never give suggestions to anything, but rather just complain. Thanks tough, for pointing out the issue of capital letters in instances, that is indeed a problem, tough I can't see others.

@Sergecross73: It is not very likely that people will participate in improving the current slate of Sega articles, given their state for more than 5 years now. I hear the suggestion of making multiple articles per decade (for both lists of games and studios), which I'm seeing as inconsistent personally. No other article is set up this way. So why should the Sega ones be the exception.?

I'm saying, if no one can agree on major restructuring, then I believe the focus should be to improve the content/sourcing of the articles as they currently are. All I know is that I've seen a lot of editors opposed to your ideas for one reason or another. At least one has contacted me directly about it. There's not consensus for your proposal, and it seems you're relatively new to the website - because it takes quite a while to understand all of Wikipedia's nuances, I don't recommend new users move into massive overhauls so early on. Its not a hard rule, I can't force you to follow it (though you can be forced to abide by consensus in general), but usually when newer editors try to make drastic changes, they come up on a lot of opposition, which is pretty much exactly what's been happening here... Sergecross73 msg me 15:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Well it is not a major restructuring really. I added to the current articles with content/sourcing, and didn't remove anything, or at least the content did not receive complaints. And then there is new one that did not exist before (list of Sega games). If I would try from sratch again (as most likely nobody else would try), the articles would end up the same as my proposed ones. @Lukeno94: has made intangible claims, such as formatting and inconsistent dates, so I can't really base anything of this. User:PresN suggested to make an a split for articles on studios and a list for games. Which is what I did. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

  • So let's get this straight; when presented with evidence that I have written video gaming related articles (which is what you said I'd never done - I'll quote you directly: "You haven't created a single video game article"), your defence to having your bare-faced lies called out is "not relevant"? Good one. Almost every single person who has commented on the state of the articles themselves has said your formatting is poor. I've documented multiple issues with it several times, including right here in this thread. The very first line of text in the main body had an obvious error in it, when you displayed a nationality using a lowercase letter. I've pointed that out several times as well, and not only have you failed to acknowledge it until now, the mess you dumped into mainspace (AGAIN) still had that very same error! If you are incapable of spotting such basic errors, then you shouldn't be editing. Period. Oh, and don't try and call the "no one else has reverted" card... plenty of people did earlier on, and the only reason that no one else is right now is due to the fact that I'm getting there first. Go ahead, look at the history of Sega development studios; you'll see that, in March, Dissident93 and TheTimesAreAChanging were reverting you, not me. You can also see how it didn't take me long to spot that you were adding your mess into mainspace before I reverted you, meaning no one else had the chance to. AV's own article describes it as a second-party studio, use your damn eyes for once! Stop lying, stop bullshitting, and either actually listen to people who have replied here, or leave Wikipedia to people who actually do listen. But look at this the other way - not one person has, as of yet, reverted back in any of your wholesale changes. Whilst multiple editors have reverted you across various articles. That says EVERYTHING about the mess you're making. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:22, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
    • You are the only to revert articles that I made after PresN suggestion (who made a clear suggestion unlike you) of splitting studios and list of games. Also no proof on if you would have truly been the only one to revert these articles. Again give suggestions, on the supposed "poorly formatted article", which goes to @Dissident93: as well. Tell me, how would YOU format an article that decribes divisions and their employees and managers and what they have done?--Tripple-ddd (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Tripple-ddd: I would format it like the Nintendo EAD article, personally. I'm aware that Sega has many more 2nd party divisions than Nintendo, but your sandbox versions are terribly formatted. First of all, list games by order of release, not alphabetically, Secondly, remove the "Western Publishing" subtitles, as only Sega developed games should be included (to simplify things). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, and if you look at the time stamps, you'll see that I reverted each time soon enough that no one else would have chance to. I constantly point to how many single sentence lines there are, or otherwise ridiculously short paragraphs, and you keep ignoring that. The only reason my suggestions aren't clear to you is that you're deliberately ignoring them. On one of the previous discussions, I laid out in fairly great detail the issues with your structuring, and you haven't solved any of those issues. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:36, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • How would single sentences and short paragraphs generate a problem for the person reading it? This is made to highlight each person, and not get lost in a jumbled mess. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 17:52, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Nothing that is written to anything approaching an acceptable standard relies heavily on single-line paragraphs. That's "acceptable", not "GA/FA". Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:55, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I have yet to see a rule on Wikipedia on this. Point me to it. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 18:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • It's just a general English writing rule. Sentences are supposed to be bunched together on a single topic, and even they can deviate some and still remain relevant. You adding multiple single-sentenced paragraphs looks both ugly and unfinished. Try to read WP:MOS to get a better idea of how the ideal Wikipedia article should be formatted. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Silly Dissident- don't you know everything is in the MOS? WP:PARAGRAPH. --PresN 21:53, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Whoa, good find, I didn't know that one either, I just knew basically what Dissident said - it's basically considered good writing with the English language. Sergecross73 msg me 22:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Whilst I'm not surprised at the existence of that link, I didn't know about it either - as everyone else has said, it's considered good writing etiquette to use paragraphs properly. And, I would expect, the same thing applies to most other languages as well, at least for those that use the same character set as we do. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:08, 20 May 2015 (UTC)´
  • "One-sentence paragraphs are unusually emphatic, and should be used sparingly. Articles should rarely, if ever, consist solely of such paragraphs." So there is seemingly still the exceeption rule; and one sentence paragraphs ARE used sparingly. Why can't my article be an exception due to the way it is structured? @Dissident93: Again, explain how the formatting is terrible. I see no particular difference between the EAD article and my articles on how the user can read out information easily. I see this Nintendo Entertainment Analysis & Development#Software Development Department section in the EAD article as worse. It documents departments and personell is one jumbled parapgraph, how is that better for the reader? How about bullet lists for each of the employees, would that be better? Why remove Western Publishing? This is a list of Sega games, like the Konami, Sony, Microsoft etc. lists. Why should a Sega be structured differently? It is inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia, and would actually make it more confusing. Also it would require alot of effort from to reorganize hundred of games in chronolgical order again. The List of Sega arcade games is also in alphabetical order, and it has stayed this way for years now. Aagain I don't plan to really improve the article dramaticily, my main intent is to simply seperate developed and published games. Years ago, someone added the entire Sega development studio to the main Sega article and it has stayed there for years, why are my, in comparision, reasonable changes suddenly such an issue? --Tripple-ddd (talk) 11:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • There is no fucking way they are used sparingly. Sparingly means once or twice in an article. Even when your paragraphs are longer than a single sentence, they're generally only a couple of sentences long, and that happens over and over and over throughout the article. Just because other articles are worse does not mean that you get to lower this article to a standard below that! We've already pointed out that there are many issues with some of those articles, and some of them, yes, -shock horror- need splitting up into smaller articles as well. I'm going to make this even blunter than usual; if you can't see just how your formatting is unacceptable after a multitude of editors have pointed it out, please go and find something else to do. You're wasting our time now by saying the same thing over and over again, and not seeing just how much of a mess you're making (or listening to 75% of what is being said). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:06, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • You shouldn't be asking "Why can't my article be the exception?" - you should be explaining "Why should it be the exception." Just because you could, doesn't mean you should, you know? Sergecross73 msg me 12:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: The rule is that articles can still consist of short paragraphs, if there is a good reason, and have yet to see an argument why this could not be the case of my article. And my article being a standard is hyperbole. Provide constructive arguments instead of lamenting everything as bad. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 13:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • There is a huge difference between "short paragraphs", which are perfectly fine, and consistently using paragraphs that consist of one to three sentences, and take up one or two lines. That is not how things should be written in English encyclopaedias, or any English language source that even attempts to be of an acceptable quality. It is hardly "lamenting everything as bad", it is you consistently failing to understand how the English language works, and how you could possibly be wrong.Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: What does formatting have to do with the english language? So what do you think the Google or Disney articles with their short paragraphs around the end of their history sections? In my opinion just doing one paragraph like this Nintendo Entertainment Analysis & Development#Software Development Department, is worse. Tell me you think this its better. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 16:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Those articles are just as poorly formatted in those sections... as has been said multiple times, the fact that other articles have the same problems does not mean that you can make the same mess here. Oh, and their problems are still smaller than the ones you created, because the quantity of super-short paragraphs is far smaller. Quite what you're pointing to with the Software Development Department section in the Nintendo article there is beyond me, but there's very little wrong with it. Imperfect, yes, but a darn sight better than your mess. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree, I don't want to get too involved but short paragraphs in any article is considered bad formatting and I would certainly fail a GAN if any section contained many one sentence paragraphs, such as those in Google and Disney. Triple D, I would strongly recommend familiarising yourself with WP:PARAGRAPH or even the GA criteria to help you with formatting things smoothly. There's actually nothing wrong with that short paragraph in the Nintendo Entertainment Analysis & Development article as it it serves as an opening to a table section, which is the only exception. JAGUAR  16:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: So I made a revision on my sandbox. Is that better? What else would you suggest?--Tripple-ddd (talk) 17:08, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The paragraphs are no longer an issue. The table formatting still is; it's inconsistent in the extreme, none of the title field entries are actually sensible word choices, and the fact that they're fairly aimlessly dotted around the article is not good. Nor is the fact that there are persistently single entry tables everywhere. Whilst the tables were not great before, they are certainly more consistent and more informative. To be perfectly honest, the tables already contain all of the information that there needs to be in the original article anyway (although I'd trim the titles present); most of the studios have their own articles or would justify their own articles. There are numerous issues beyond just that, including things I've documented for a long time, but other things include the ridiculous listing of every affiliated company, which appears to be highly inconsistent with the one in the existing article; just having a plain list like that gives no context whatsoever (particularly a totally unreferenced list), whilst the existing article uses tables to give context. In my opinion, these would belong in a separate article regardless - but your version is certainly worse. Quite frankly, I don't see how your version is ever going to really be an improvement, due to excessively duplicating existing articles which have every right to continue existing. Your article is still oversized at 80kB as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

@Lukeno94:Tables? What tables? The article consists of words, not tables. Information that is already elsewhere? The current studio list article and current studio articles document next to nothing and not as in detail as my article does (with the exception of the Sonic Team, which might be the only duplicated thing). But so what? Shigeru Miyamoto and EAD articles duplicate certain information. No context for affiliated studios? They are affiliated studios, I could add that these companies that Sega partnered up for published releases, would that be ok? Please respond back about the following things:

  • Explain yourself again, but do not use the worlds and the phrases "tables", "single entry tables", "field entries", "dotting around", so someone could make sense of what you are saying
  • What info have I duplicated aside from the Sonic Team articles?
  • Are you ok with the content of article, or do you not like the way it is written? Because I can make little sense of what you are complaining about
  • Are you actually aware that "List of games" is supposed to link to the actual list of games of my other sandbox articles?

--Tripple-ddd (talk) 18:36, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Anything in a class="wikitable" thing is a table. That's kinda implied by the name. It is impossible for me not to use the words/phrases that involve tables, because that is exactly what they are. Every other editor here should understand exactly what I'm saying, and it is hugely concerning that you cannot. The larger amount of detail you've gone into on some of the companies is better suited to the main articles. A list of development studios should be a summary, not in-depth. Yes, I'm aware of exactly what the List of games is supposed to link to (I'd already checked), and it's not appropriate given that the massive List of games article you're proposing is not appropriate. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

@Lukeno94: This is a table:

Header text Header text Header text
Example Example Example
Example Example Example
Example Example Example

This is a text:

Wikipedia (Listeni/ˌwɪkɨˈpiːdiə/ or Listeni/ˌwɪkiˈpiːdiə/ wik-i-pee-dee-ə) is a free-access, free content Internet encyclopedia, supported and hosted by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Those who can access the site can edit most of its articles. Editors are expected to follow the website's rules.[6] Wikipedia is ranked among the ten most popular websites[5] and constitutes the Internet's largest and most popular general reference work.[7][8][9]

Tables are barely relevant in my article so I just don't get what you mean, especially not in the context of what you talk (dotting around, what do you mean by that?). Also the article is not supposed to be a list of studios but more like the EAD article, which I already established.--Tripple-ddd (talk) 19:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Yes, I know what a table is. I'm not a moron. Your article is full of those, but with only one entry. How the hell are you not seeing that? I'm aware it's not supposed to be a list of studios, I just didn't describe it properly. The article should summarize each company, not describe everything about them, and it should do so in as coherent a manner as possible. The "dotting around" is a reference to the fact that the tables are not well positioned within the article, particularly in the 2000 onwards sections. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I've been lurking around this conversation for a while and I'm surprised this hasn't really been brought up for a while, if at all. @Lukeno94:, while it may be frustrating that @Tripple-ddd: is breaking rules outlined at WP:MOS, you are breaking rules outlined at WP:CIVIL, specifically name calling ("if you are this incompetent when it comes to writing") and being too intense ("That says EVERYTHING about the mess you're making."). We are meant to be helping this user improve his lists, not make him feel more agitated; at the end of the day, that approach will get us nowhere. If you have frustrations, please try to walk Tripple-ddd through what you're saying calmly, and if that doesn't work, ask for some help from other editors. Wikipedia is meant to promote a cooperative environment, and your tone is going against that. BlookerG talk 20:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

  • I tried walking them through calmly. They have selective reading. It doesn't work. Look above at what happened when I tried - their response were some blatantly ridiculous questions, such as what a table was, and when I pointed that out, they still didn't think they were relevant. Talking to this user is like talking to a brick wall, and it's been the same with everyone who has tried... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I notice that @Tripple-ddd: has also broken at least one WP:CIVIL rule about acting superior ("You haven't created a single video game article, and neither contribute much"). Although, I believe that @Lukeno94: should not have continued to instigate further disagreements. BlookerG talk 21:03, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Firstly, in your first response to this thread, you called one of Tripple-ddd's ideas "terrible" and said that their grammar had "laughably obvious" issues. That doesn't constitute as calm to me, and I'm sure it isn't seen as calm by others. Try saying that an idea is "flawed" or somebody's grammar has some problems. The "laughably obvious" part is unnecessary. Secondly, asking questions no matter how simple they may seem to you is never "ridiculous" as you say, and you have continued to call them another name ("brick wall"). If there is absolutely no way you can talk to this person, then discuss what action should be taken with others in a calmer manner. If you feel like Tripple-ddd is problematic, then more serious but civil action can be taken. I think you are somewhat missing my point. BlookerG talk 21:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Quite how you think doing this is going to help ease tensions is beyond me. I attempted, at points within this thread, to point out the obvious issues in detail and as neutrally as possible. I then got the responses that I mentioned above. You're not helping matters here, but are now causing another side distraction. And quite frankly, if you think that me saying that talking to Tripple-ddd is like a talking to a brick wall is "name calling", I don't know how I can help you - it's a well known phrase and has absolutely nothing to do with name calling... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I think that both @Tripple-ddd and @Lukeno94 need to calm down. I'm considering pushing for an interaction ban; every conversation between the two of you is incredibly heated, even ignoring actual CIVIL violations. Yes, Tripple-ddd's proposed changes have numerous grammar, formatting, and logistical errors. No, I don't think they should go to mainspace in the state they are in. No, that does not mean that either side needs to be this angry or contentious.
  • Going forward- if I continue to see CIVIL violations (from either of you) I'm going to start on escalating blocks. Given the intense opposition to Tripple-ddd's proposed changes, however, I'm also going to consider any attempt on Tripple-ddd's part to push his proposed articles into mainspace as vandalism, and react accordingly. --PresN 21:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • An interaction ban would take me out of any discussion for the future of the Sega articles right now. That would not be helpful or fair. I'm also displeased that you also appear to have ignored the fact that I have tried, several times, to recollect myself and start stating things in detail and as neutrally as possible, and yet I still have to say the same thing three times before it is actually acknowledged/understood (if it is at all). For what it's worth, if I had the time, I would set out my own sandbox proposal, but that is not something I will have for another week. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • An interaction ban would take me out of any discussion for the future of the Sega articles right now - yes, that's what an interaction ban means. I know that this discussion can be (very) frustrating. It still needs to stay as a (relatively) calm discussion, without excessive anger or namecalling, no matter how justified you feel you are or actually are. There is a line; don't cross it. I'm just making sure that you know what the potential consequences could be if you do cross it; it's up to you to police your own actions. It's okay to just not respond to Tripple-ddd if you are feeling angry; it's not like you're the only person who thinks his proposed articles need a lot of work to not be reverted. --PresN 22:02, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Tripple-ddd: What sandbox did you edit recently? Your sandbox2 should not include the titles that Sega published, only developed. And why are there "era" subheaders, but the games themselves are not in chronological order? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: So I don't know what you mean with the tables, the only thing I can see is that some aren't 100% in width? Is the existence of the tables not justified, due to just linking to a list? If the latter is the case, I revised sandbox1 again, to see if you like that approach better. About the detailed "company descriptions", have you actually read the content? I might actually explain it further, in case you didn't get it. Sega has always had "divisions" not "companies" for most of it's life (which went largely uncredited, making seperate articles and attaching games dificult). It steadily grew into 9 divisions, and became "companies" in 2000, but even that is questionable as these companies were never actually officially shut down but continued to exist, just without names. Mergers that happened in 2003 and 2009 makes matter even more complicated. For example, the Initial D Arcade Stage game went through 4 divisions - first Sega Rosso, then Hitmaker, then AM3, and now R&D1. Having the information (as a history article) of a singular group that spread apart and got singular again makes sense and is coherent. Expalin to me why that isn't the case @Dissident93: The era subheaders contain games within that era. I ask again, why does Sega need a seperate list for published releases when other companies don't? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tripple-ddd (talkcontribs) 14:22, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Most of the other big game company articles are just as badly written, it's just that nobody has gotten around to them yet. Having every game a huge company ever published seems way too bloated, especially for one like Sega. I think that info would be better suited for a Sega specific Wikia. Listing every game they developed, (based on the Nintendo EAD page), would already be big enough, but wouldn't be as badly formatted as your sandboxes are. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Once again; the fact that other articles aren't done in an optimal way does not mean that this article should be done in a sub-optimal manner. Those can be improved as and when people get around to it. The existence of the tables is justified, but the way they were structured in the existing article is much better than in your proposal, as they actually served a purpose there, and are informative - more so than your proposal is generally. The way that article is structured is generally better as a result. It doesn't matter exactly what the exact buzzwords for each division/section/whatever of Sega were; if they worked independently on major titles (not talking about gaming franchises, but individual games), as most of them seem to have done, they justify their own articles, just like the divisions of any other company. It also doesn't matter where they were based, for that matter. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:46, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: My proposal is not informative? What do you mean? It is sourced, it describes personell and the games they have worked on. The tables describe the division head and the division. Explain yourself on why you find things "uninformative" or "incoherent".--Tripple-ddd (talk) 14:12, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Not as informative, because the tables give no context whatsoever, and the prose focuses far more on personnel than such an article needs to. I haven't once used the term incoherent in this particular discussion. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:33, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: You said this: "and it should do so in as coherent a manner as possible", implying you think it is incohrent. The tables give no context? What? The table contains information about the division, the division head, and links to the list of games. What does context even mean in this case? You are complaining that it focuses too much on personell, what else should it focus on? This is a history article. Should there be a page for all thirty of producers and managers? Not every person on Wikipedia that gets mentioned gets an article. Can you explain to me how this article is more informative, or how it is better formatted? The tables aren't 100 width either (if that's what you are complainining about). I just don't understand. Am I assuming the right things? Tell me. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's a history article, which means that it should focus on what was produced, not anywhere near as heavily on the people. The tables before showed exactly what each division did; right now, most of the divisions have been anonymized into very little within your version. No, there shouldn't be a page on every single person involved. I already said the tables weren't perfect in the main article, but they're a darn sight more consistent than the ones in your version are, and actually serve a purpose. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lukeno94: Anonymized? PresN disliked the featured lists in the current version, as it overbloats the article, do you want a list in the article and oversize?. What should the tables in your mind feature? Represntative games?--Tripple-ddd (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • As I've already said, several times, the existing tables are too detailed and the number of games mentioned should be trimmed down to just a couple of particularly notable titles, but the tables in your version are pointless and serve no purpose. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:46, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • But you said a while ago that the existence of tables is justified? The tables should have significant games, and be more fleshed out, I can manage that. OK, now what else don't you like about my version?--Tripple-ddd (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, the tables existence is justified. No, the versions in your version don't serve any purpose. These are not mutually exclusive things. I've already documented plenty of other issues with your version on multiple occasions; I am not going to repeat them for a third (at least) time. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The only things I can understand from this far: 1. You don't like that the tables are bare 2. You don't like the excessive detail in describing different people (in which you haven't provided suggestions about) 3. Grammar issues (you say it generally, not spefically) Sorry you have to repeat yourself. Just bare in mind, you have to be clear in what you are saying, make suggestions, not generalize, and reference the content within the article in the clearest and most understandable manner possible. Thank you.--Tripple-ddd (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Specifics are inappropriate when there are issues that are widespread. I recommend you actually read what you've written in the article, rather than just glancing at it and deciding that everything is perfect. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:52, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • And you generalizing again doesn't help futher. Nobody can know what the problem is, unless you specify it. I spent several months putting and researching this together, I know it in and out. --Tripple-ddd (talk) 22:02, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The information is generally accurate (only had to correct you on certain things). The main problem with your proposed edits is that it's extremely bloated and contains way too much information, albeit mostly accurate, along with being badly formatted according to WP:MOS. If you just followed how the Nintendo EAD article is formatted, I don't think anybody would have an issue with that, honestly. So if you want to know directly how to fix all these issues, here is what I (and others I suppose) suggest:
  1. Get rid of all games Sega simply published. Make a separate article if you must, like List of products published by Nintendo (although this article is formatted even worse than your sandboxes, ugh. Might be the next thing we work on after this)
  2. Only keep games they directly developed for, and try to keep them grouped under the specific team if possible, like the EAD article. I know Sega's dev groups can be confusing though, so this could be a problem perhaps.
  3. Omit stuff that separate articles could handle (I.E. Sonic Team wouldn't have their games listed, so just add a redirect link to simplify things). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm going to note here that I now definitely intend to knock up a draft of my own once my exams have finished. This will only apply to proposal one, as I remain firm in my belief that neither of the other two proposals are good ideas. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

@Dissident93: Why do you think having no duplicates makes things less complicated? It's not a practice I see on Wikipedia. 2 articles can cover a different subject but feature some of the same games. And while I can see splitting western and japanese published games, the japanese games are still ihrerently linked to in-house development (producer in Sega Japan).--Tripple-ddd (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • It matters when the article is massive, that's the entire reason separate articles exist. Sega published hundreds of games during the Mega Drive/Saturn era, so I'm saying to omit all of them and just list the games they (and their 2nd party companies) directly developed for. Does anybody else disagree? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @Dissident93: A decade split would be fine by me. For arcade games that would be four decades, and for other games that would be three.--Tripple-ddd (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Some offensive stuff[edit]

Wasn't sure what to do with this, so I figured I'd note here that User:Andiar.rohnds was doing some odd stuff here (where he went back and forth with some rather offensive content) and more notably, here. I'm not particularly fond of our "buzzword" articles either, but this isn't exactly the kind of behavior we want. ~Mable (chat) 18:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Did you let an admin know about this? I bet PresN or Sergecross73 would be interested. GamerPro64 19:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Blocked him for a month, though given he appears to be, like, 12, I expect he'll get a permanent block soon after showing up again. --PresN 19:55, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
They also have been blocked twice before. Probably for the best the next one will be permanent. GamerPro64 20:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. A month is good this time, but after his third block, with the next one, I'd support an indef too. Sergecross73 msg me 23:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Would anyone be interested in helping with a push to bring GLaDOS to GA?[edit]

Basically as the title says. Not only do I want to have some serious cleanup done to the article, but I also want to go through and find sources to expand upon the reception, analysis, and concept and creation sections (since I'm sure that a lot of commentary has been made that hasn't been put in the article as of yet). - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 23:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't mind helping out a bit… I started working on the lead last night, but the second paragraph could probably be condensed more. —zziccardi (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Jesus, there's MORE for the Development section? I swear, Valve must've had the son from The Purge taking notes the whole time. (Granted, it looks like a good amount is redundant or overly wordy and could be condensed.) Tezero (talk) 17:22, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

RMCD Bot malfunctioning[edit]

Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within nominated for TFA[edit]

Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, the first video-game inspired film to be promoted to featured status, is now also the first video-game inspired film to be nominated for TFA. All comments on the nomination are welcome, see here. Cheers. Freikorp (talk) 12:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Game DLC Tables[edit]

Did we get rid of these? I was reading this today and thought "does a table exist for this article?" (no) and poked at a few other games that I thought had one, but I didn't see one. Did something happen? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 18:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

If we're talking all the special releases, I don't think we should document these releases that heavily, particularly with all the various retailer incentives (though however, if there are commentary on the aggressive splitting of content here, that should be highlighted in the article.) --MASEM (t) 18:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I remember Watch Dogs had a huge table with all the different retail editions and content listed but that got removed. Assassin's Creed Syndicate currently has a largish table which should probably be removed. I think it is more appropriate to just summarise the key content in prose. We don't need to list every little piece of content (like character skins) individually. I think the way that it is presented currently in Batman: Arkham Knight#Additional content is fine. --The1337gamer (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Requests page[edit]

Backlog[edit]

So this month alone the backlog for Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests has gotten three months taken care of. 2011 still has a month in there but I believe that with the summer upon us, articles can be made with the choices presented. And who knows? A new Good Article (which has been done before) or a Featured Article could be made from one of these redlinks. GamerPro64 21:00, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Redesign[edit]

Sorting through the requests (here) is difficult because of the way it's laid out. Would it be possible to make it so this page is laid out similar to this and this? Those pages have them alphabetically and in sections instead of by Month+Year, which can get out of hand very easily. --Anarchyte 03:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, December 2014 is out of control because Coin, after he (a) made several hundred sub-stubs of iOS games based on/copied from Metacritic and (b) got a bunch of them deleted due to the whole copying thing, made a giant list of article requests there. I'm not unopposed to redesigning the requests page, though it seems like we've preferred (due to design or inertia) to keep it chronological so we could prioritize the older requests. If we no longer care about that, then we might as well change it. --PresN 05:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
(I don't really see how adding requests to the requests subpage is a bad thing - after all if it is long then it gives passers-by lots of great ideas for articles to write if they want to try something new. But if you think my additions are "out of hand", then by all means delete them. :) )--Coin945 (talk) 08:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
@PresN:I made a very basic idea page that can be improved on as time goes on, here: User:Anarchyte/sandbox/WPVGR. Have the year+month still but include genres inside each year if need be (small things like August 2011 probably wouldn't need it).--Anarchyte 08:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the page is fine as it is, but if we were going to change, I'd prefer that we don't have so many needless headers that will probably be ignored anyway. More useful would be splitting the page into something like Companies, People, Games, Concepts or similar. Sam Walton (talk) 10:35, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Japanese games and English covers?[edit]

My intention is not to call attention towards a discussion outside this project's scope. It is mostly on how I should handle future works. I was told a Japanese cover is always preferred since it's the original work. However, in the VG articles I've seen, there is always the English localization's cover in the infobox. Why is this the case? DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 05:20, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

See WP:VGBOX - X201 (talk) 06:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
I see, it was a project decision. Thanks. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 06:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Review Thread XIV: A Thread Reborn[edit]

This has not appeared for yonks, so here it is again as bright as ever. As usual, listed are all the pending Featured, Peer and Good Article reviews. The number of GAs is quite high at the moment. As usual, I draw people's attention to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests, which is still suffering from backlog. Contributions welcome and gratefully received.

FAC
GANs

Begging thread[edit]

As the creator, I'm starting this. Here we go: I will trade someone's GA game review for a review of Megami Tensei or a comprehensive review for Fabula Nova Crystallis. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Inception in video game series template[edit]

Hi everybody,

Seeing ProtoDrake's message, I checked out Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy. In the infobox, it mentions "year of inception". I didn't notice that field before and I looked up in the {{Infobox video game series}}. The description says "Year of first release in the series", but there's already a field for first release. That's a bit redundant, right? Now, Fabula Nova Crystallis uses the inception field as when it was announced in 2006, which makes more sense to me. But the field is still called 'inception'. Doesn't that sound like when the developer came up with the idea, before it was revealed? --Soetermans. T / C 11:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Compilation[edit]

Does anyone know what the compilation field was for on the Video game reviews template? - X201 (talk) 11:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Possibly for aggregate scores. (archived discussion) --The1337gamer (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Yep, it is. Having that date allowed me to find it in the source code. Thanks. - X201 (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Beyond Eyes[edit]

Not sure how to proceed with this problem. The developer of Beyond Eyes, Sherida Halatoe, has expressed a desire to delete all mention of the PlayStation 4 version from Wikipedia. A number of sources say the game is in development for PS4 (including IGN, GameReactor and TheSixthAxis) and Halatoe herself acknowledges a PS4 version is planned, both on Twitter [1] and her talk page, but I assume, due to Xbox One timed exclusivity, she would now prefer we ignore the PS4 version until the exclusivity period expires. How should we proceed. Do we ignore reliable sources and pretend a PS4 version is not planned, or politely decline the request? — TPX 21:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

We can't put the cat back in the bag for her if the information came from reputable sources via normal channels. If instead, even if IGN reported it but as a rumor with no point of confirmation, that would be actionable. --MASEM (t) 21:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Seconded. We go by what third party reliable sources say. If sources report on a retraction or something then add that too. Sergecross73 msg me 23:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
The PS4 version is planned, but not officially announced. The article should reflect that specifically. "Removing all mention of PS4" is a completely ridiculous idea. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  23:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)