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viewtalkeditchanges

Brave Frontier[edit]

Well I am having a problem regarding the article I created, which is Brave Frontier. IT seems that the page I wrote lacks a lot of things especially first party sources and anything else. If someone can cover this thoroughly please do.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackgaia02 (talkcontribs) 13:40, 30 August 2014‎ (UTC)

Is this source usable?[edit]

I have an interview here with producer David Mulich at GameStakers. The site itself takes user contributions which is a downside, but this is an interview in which Mulich has deliberately mentioned some items of information as a result of e-mail correspondence with myself. Is it usable or not? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Link, please. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  21:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Me being derp Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Interviews are typically considered reliable unless there's a reason to actively believe otherwise. In what areas does the site take "user contributions"? I've had interviews hosted on fansites and even forums make it into FAs. Tezero (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Yea, the relevant policy is WP:ABOUTSELF, which is pretty much common sense; unless there are suspicions that the interviews may be fake or the interviewee being untruthful, then it's fine as a factual primary source. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  23:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
@Tezero, the about page says "To write a review for a game, no rank is necessary, just an account which is free! Once the review is submitted, it is checked to make sure quality is present and then it is made public.", so there is some kind of oversight. @Salvidrim! Thanks for the info. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The video game release regions are not appropriate[edit]

Okay, this has been bothering me for a loooooooooong time, but as no body else has brought this up (kidding me guys?) I created an account just to do this. As you know, the vgrelease template is separated into four regions, Japan, North America, Europe and Australasia.

This is a major problem because Europe and North America are CONTINENTS, with DIFFERENT countries speaking DIFFERENT languages and obviously their video game release dates are DIFFERENT. Treating Europe as if it was one country is nonsense, or are you telling me that the English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish, Romanian, Greek, Turkish, Ukrainian, Russian, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Belgian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Croatian video games where all released on Exactly the same date? Or the same with American (I mean the USA here), Canadian, Mexican, Cuban and Jamaican release dates?

See what I mean here?

This is DISCRIMINATORY and treating the USA and UK as if they represent their entire continents.

Its equivalent to changing the "Japan" region to "Asia", as if it was appropriate

See what I mean?

I propose changing "North America" to "United States" and "Europe" to "United Kingdom" to solve this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stranger with no soul (talkcontribs) 00:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We are more interested in the first English release date (save for Japan, which is a significant country where many video games originate from), so the North American release and the European release dates make the most sense. It is not discriminatory because this is how most sites already report release dates. --MASEM (t) 00:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Actually WP:VG/DATE states that Japan should be treated the same as other non-English countries. --Mika1h (talk) 00:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
There's also a {{vgrelease new}} template, which allows more flexible customization for regional releases since it accepts all ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes, in the case where it is absolutely necessary (however in not all cases should this actually be done). Alternatively, additional countries can be manually entered using {{vgrelease}} anyway, for example:
  • ABK December 35, 2017
is displayed using {{vgrelease|[[Abkhazia|ABK]]|December 35, 2017}}. However, keep in mind that neither of these two is an excuse to add 70 different country release dates to game infoboxes. --benlisquareTCE 02:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Additionally, the release regions are based on the PAL/NTSC regions of yore, as seen here- File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg. Video games from NTSC regions (NA) could not be played in PAL regions (EU) or NTSC-J regions (JP). Australia/Australasia isn't it's own region, it's just another PAL area. With the advent of digital games, they still continued to be region-locked into those areas, so you couldn't play NTSC games on a PAL PS3. Nowadays, games on Steam or PSN are region-locked to specific countries, so the PAL/NTSC divide doesn't matter so much. Instead, we just say "what was the first release in NA? in EU? in JP?" regardless of language, and leave it at that; just like we say "what was the first PAL release?" regardless of language. If the first PAL/EU release was in France, then that's the date. I don't know why you think we're using the UK as the standard for Europe. --PresN 05:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Copyeditors wanted for Fez[edit]

JimmyBlackwing has expressed disapproval at the state of this article's prose. I thought it was good enough after a few fixes and I supported accordingly, but he feels that "a thorough working-over by at least one outside copyeditor" is needed, so that's what I'm here to ask for. Can anyone spare some time to fix it up? Here's the FAC; scroll to the bottom. Tezero (talk) 01:31, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Additional developer(s)[edit]

I just wonder which is the best way to list additional developer in the info box section, using a collapsible list like in Far Cry 3 and Call of Duty: Ghosts, or using efn like in Watch Dogs and Grand Theft Auto V. AdrianGamer (talk)

Don't know, but I wish we'd standardise on something. - X201 (talk) 10:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Template: Activision[edit]

I have made a template for Activision, but it told me that the page doesn't exists. can someone help
Link: Template: Activision. AdrianGamer (talk)

Fixed - hahnchen 11:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much. AdrianGamer (talk)

Some AFDs for your attention[edit]

Old video games are notoriously hard to source as most of the sources are print media (magazines, documents etc.), or the websites that had all the web info are now lost to time, so the current state is not reflective of the notability of the game. For this reason I personally oppose these AFDs. To be fair I am also the creator. But yeah, please check these out and cast your objective vote.--Coin945 (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, all video game related articles nominated at AFD are eventually tagged and listed at WP:VG/D. Much of the community monitors that. So you don't need to alert us here. That being said, I'll try to loon into these some. Sergecross73 msg me 02:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:VG/AA is my alternative of choice, if WP:VG/D isn't complete enough for you. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Scottish independence[edit]

Given the possibility of Scotland becoming independent, have we got a precedent for something like this? My own thoughts are that any game created in Scotland while Scotland was part of the UK should stay as a "Developed in the UK", with a possible addition of a "Developed in Scotland" category. Only games made in Scotland after independence day (24 March 2016) should be regarded as a solely Scottish game. Obviously this is hypothetical at the moment and we'll know the real answer in a couple of hours, but it's worth thinking about. - X201 (talk) 09:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this not a bit too soon? Especially if they will not become fully independent till 2016. We also do not know the results yet. So it can become a full none-issue to begin with. Not to mention it could even be that as the independence is announced that there will be a major exodus of the game developers that are in scotland moving to England. So I can say. I do not know and I do not think anyone knows yet what will happen. So I think its too soon. NathanWubs (talk) 13:10, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Trust me, the edits will start tomorrow if its a yes vote. - X201 (talk) 13:33, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
You are right, for one moment I thought that all IP editors would be sensible. If the vote is yes then I agree with your suggestion. NathanWubs (talk) 13:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia didn't exist when the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, or Yugoslavia split up, though games were probably being developed there at those times, and on the other hand I doubt the South Sudanese game industry has produced much of note, so I don't think there's much of a precedent there. I'd recommend not creating a Scottish game category until shortly before the Kingdom actually gains its sovereignty so articles aren't added there in the meantime - in all common sense, games that aren't far into development before independence but are from notable publishers and likely to be finished will probably still be being developed in Scotland after independence, but technically we don't know that. Saor Alba gu brath! Tezero (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
They said no, so we are save for now. NathanWubs (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

So much for trying to be proactive on Wikipedia :-) - X201 (talk) 08:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank god they voted no! Jaguar 10:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments needed[edit]

Could you have a quick look at the Remove alternative field name (Mode) discussion over on the template talk page please. I think its an open and shut case, but some comments would be helpful, thanks. - X201 (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Is Tropes vs. Women considered notable for reception inclusion?[edit]

I can't tell you how many times this argument has come up and gone unresolved, so I profoundly want a firm conclusion to be reached. I don't care that much - its use in individual game articles to me is limited to (1) reiterating that SJWs have a large and vocal presence in gaming journalism and (2) cluing readers in to how repetitive and tired Anita Sarkeesian's arguments are - but I very much disdain the apparent current reality of having it removed from some articles while it stays in others. Tezero (talk) 14:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you clarify your question? Do you mean 'Should Anita Sarkeesian's opinion be included in the reception sections of video game articles'? Sam Walton (talk) 14:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry, it's that. Tezero (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I've only watched one of them fully, but I would say that Tropes should only be used if the specific game already has a larger discussion from other sources on the issues that the Tropes videos touch on for that game (so that the Tropes bit would be adding to, and not creating, that), I would not include a section based on what Tropes says if that is the only source talking about that. (eg, one I did watch she talks about issues in BioShock, which I can see her point on, but it also is the only source for that I've ever seen, and so would be a WP:FRINGE problem to include). --MASEM (t) 15:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not necessarily talking about a section; it could only be a couple of sentences. Tezero (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Going off what Serge describes below as good examples, even a few sentences about the Tropes commentary would be undue and FRINGEy if that is the only place where sexist (or other issues) are raised about the specific game. I will note that if those videos get further commentary by others (for example: while she hits on sexism in BioShock in the recent one, I remember seeing a few RSes mentioning "but some of that was what it was like at that time..."), that would be make it appropriate for further commentary within the game. Basically, if it is just her voice on that issue, you shouldn't include it. (And to be clear, this is not because it is Sarkeenian - this applies to all commentary people including, say, Zero Punctuation, TotalBiscuit, Markiplier, etc.) --MASEM (t) 16:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
My view seems to mirror Masem's. I wouldn't use it unless it was commentary on a bigger issue. If she complains that Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds is sexist because you can only play as a man, or something like that, I don't think it belongs. Its more of a WP:UNDUE voice, the game itself isn't fundamentally sexist, and that really wasn't what most reviewers got out of the experience. Now, if its something more like Lollipop Chainsaw, where the game received a lot of commentary in their portrayal of women, then I think her comments would be more appropriate. I wouldn't create a whole section just for what Tropes says, but if it was a big enough deal, I could see it being a whole section, with Tropes contributing to it. Sergecross73 msg me 15:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Be sure you aren't conflating your own views on the subject with critics'; for example, perhaps others do think only playing as a man in certain games is sexist. (On a related note, to clarify, I don't mean to edit POINTily here; I was just listing what I think the most likely outcomes of Sarkeesian inclusion are. And I actually do think there's a lot of outright sexism - as well as the problem of just not thinking about female characters and gamers - in the industry; it's more of a Don't Shoot the Message issue.) Having said that, a consensus of your larger point does seem to be forming. Tezero (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not. The concept itself is rooted in WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, and the example was merely meant to be a "tame/family friendly/generally in good standing with the press" type game versus an "extreme, obviously trying to be edgy" type game. If there were a ton of reliable sources clamoring about how sexist LOZ was...I wouldn't personally agree, but I wouldn't object to a consensus supporting its inclusion. I'd probably just stick around to maintain it, to make sure people don't get carried away with it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Was this in regards to your slow motion edit war going on over here? Sergecross73 msg me 18:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
That was the tipping point, yeah. In a practical sense this discussion doesn't seem necessary for that, as a few other critics have called out similar issues as Sarkeesian there, but I still want to reach some kind of general communal decision. Tezero (talk) 18:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Allow me to throw my ball. I think it would be best if the series discussed the game at length as opposed to a passing reference. Example: Mentioning Shadows of the Damned in the way she did does not warrant inclusion. Going on for over five minutes about how silly Ms. Pac-man is might warrant a mention to me. Context and depth matter, as when we use Zero Punctuation on some of our reviews. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 19:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll agree here - if she spend the entirety of an episode on one game, that itself probably means it could be included (and add to the fact each video so far has had commentary from RS to add to that , so you'll get more there). --MASEM (t) 19:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

No. She isn't an expert, she's not even a passer-by in the field of video games, she's someone specifically looking to complain about aspects of games. I don't see what her unfounded and intentionally biased opinions can add to articles. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Come on. You're free to disagree with her, but that sort of thought process is comparable to just covering you ears and saying "lalala I can't hear you!" Her viewpoints are pretty prominently covered in the VG world these days. She's not just "GamerFanattic207", the 12 yr old who just started their first YouTube account last week. Sergecross73 msg me 20:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, DWB does capture her job pretty well: she decides first that games are sexist and then picks out everything that can possibly be used to support that conclusion. That's honest journalism like the Everything Wrong With videos are real reviews - it's just that Sarkeesian is at least covered by the media, if not always in a positive light. Tezero (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
She's prominently covered because of the type of criticism rather than the quality. She's covered because her videos stir up lots of alpha male anger, and websites cover her to counter that in a self-promotional, self-serving, self-indulgent manner. You can watch her videos if you want, but her opinion is directed to produce a conclusion, not find it. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:06, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm well aware of what she does, and how her videos work. I never said I supported her stance or her thought process. I'm saying she's a prominent figure and you can't just go "No, I don't like it, stay off my Wikipedia". I don't especially like Polygon (website), the stories they write, or the viewpoints they express. But I still recognize that they meet the definition of a reliable source. You need to be able to separate your personal viewpoints from things. And again, if you read what I actually said, I only support her use to flesh out a "controversy" that is already there to begin with. Sergecross73 msg me 21:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
But if the controversy already exists, it's already sourceable without resorting to citing someone merely capitalizing on those sources. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
"Capitalize" is a bizarre word choice, but beyond that, because she's widely referenced in the industry and journalists. Sergecross73 msg me 02:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • As with all primary source commentators, I would only try to use this opinion when it's covered by editorial control (in a secondary source). For example, this article is secondary coverage that notes the importance of the video's message vis-à-vis the games mentioned. The mention would be worth a sentence apiece in those cases (referencing that Polygon article and not the original source). The same way, I'd avoid using a known indie dev's blog as a source for their criticism of other indie games. If their specific opinion is important, it will have coverage in reliable, secondary sources. czar  22:45, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with Czar; Tropes vs. Women by itself isn't appropriate for inclusion (and neither is citing to it directly), but if the relevant information is covered by an established RS (such as Kotaku), then it may be suitable and discussed on a case-by-case basis. Satellizer (´ ・ ω ・ `) 23:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a thought[edit]

Avoiding getting off topic, did any of you guys have a bad experience with the reddit gaming subbreddit? Their community seems incredibely harsh. URDNEXT (talk) 16:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been on Reddit much except r/atheism and r/spacedicks, both profound experiences. If you don't like Reddit's community, though, avoid 4chan at all costs. Tezero (talk) 16:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Funningly enough, 4chan seemed better. I guess I'll just stay on the Twitter camp. URDNEXT (talk) 16:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
4chan is ok because there are no users or down/up votes. The people there are more toxic, but the community as a whole is less circlejerky. KonveyorBelt 17:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I haven't gone there either. I mostly just read stories from websites from RS's. That way, if I read something interesting, I can add it to Wikipedia. I do read a lot of Neogaf though. Their "New Thread" Twitter account commonly breaks stories before anywhere else does. Sergecross73 msg me 16:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Interesting. I actually don't read RSes much of my own accord; most of my gaming news comes from my forums, RL, Facebook, and VG Cats. While I'm not inclined to start because my instinct is usually that anything I find is already on Wikipedia unless I sought it out, it makes sense from an admin/maintenance perspective. Tezero (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
/r/games and /r/truegaming are infinitely better. Sam Walton (talk) 17:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I lurk around a few subreddits (SMITE, porn stuff, TV shows and Game Grumps), but never contribute much unless there's some Wikipedia-related issue. I don't really check out the more "general interest" subreddits. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  20:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Have almost no experience with Reddit, except for vods of gdqs. That is about it and sometimes finding them in random browsing. NathanWubs (talk) 21:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Are AMA's reliable?[edit]

A lot of times, developers will release a bunch of new information in these sessions, but I'm not sure if they're reliable to use as references. Maybe if the page is archived, is there any chance it's more reliable? URDNEXT (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

AFAIK Reddit doesn't delete old stuff. You can also directly link to a specific comment... Do I would year it like any other interview: WP:SELFPUB, which means reliable for facts about the subject itself, as a primary source. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  22:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
AMAs should be good, if they're validated (this usually involves the person posting their username on their twitter or similar, or calling Reddit directly). Reddit doesn't delete old pages, though archiving is always good; they just turn off comments after 6 months. --PresN 17:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

250 Featured Articles/Lists[edit]

It hasn't been officially promoted yet but with Flight Unlimited III, this project has now reached the milestone of 250 FAs/FLs. As a bonus, the topic its apart of, Looking Glass Studios video games will become a Featured Topic. Thanks go out to JimmyBlackwing for his contributions. GamerPro64 02:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Two-hundred and fifty FA/Ls is quite an achievement; it's been a long time since that progress bar was first installed. Everyone at WPVG deserves credit for this milestone. (And I find it hard to believe that the LGS video games FT is finished after all this time. I gave up hope for that project on many occasions, only to come back to it months or years later. At roughly seven years in the making, it clearly wins no points for speed.) JimmyBlackwing (talk) 07:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move at Sexual harassment in video gaming[edit]

I came across this page at AFD during the GamerGate fallout. I've suggested it be moved to Harassment in video gaming which would also enlarge the scope of the article, but I'm also aware that editors may wish to keep it as a pure sexism style piece. Input welcome here. - hahnchen 16:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

1UP Is Down Thread XI: Invasion of the Tinysauruses[edit]

So, I know this has been discussed to death over a number of threads, but I remember hearing a while back that the long-infamous 1UP.com was in the process of restructuring its archives such that old reviews and such would be accessible. Has this ever materialized? Have there been any other updates lately? I ask because of Tony Hawk's Underground, which I can't in all good conscience take to FAC with a dead link. Tezero (talk) 22:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

You can try pulling up a archive.org backup of the page(s), and then archive that archive with webcitation, so that it's immune to robots.txt shenanigans. --PresN 23:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I'd already tried that for the original link (the PS2 review) and the Wayback Machine hadn't snagged it, but just to humor myself I went through a prefix list of similar titles and found that the GameCube review had been archived, so I WebCited that. Thanks for the extra push, I guess! Tezero (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
What the hell is this section title supposed to mean? Sergecross73 msg me 00:10, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Heh, it was just supposed to be a joke about how many of these threads there have been. (It's the subtitle of the eleventh Land Before Time movie.) Tezero (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2014 (UTC)