Talk:Straight edge/Archive 2

Needless separation of drugs

I have a bit of a problem with the first paragraph of the article which says "to refrain from drinking alcohol, using tobacco products, and taking recreational drugs". Drinking alcohol and using tobacco products are taking recreational drugs. Its not abstainting from those 3 things. 2 of those things are a part of the 3rd thing. A more accurate (and less misleading) way to say it would be "to refrain from taking recreational drugs including drinking alchohol and using tobacco products". Adimus28 (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I see your point, and would accept it being reworded like that. It's important that we include the alcohol and tobacco reference however as these days they are so mainstream a lot of people do not associate them as recreational drugs, even though they are. --Freikorp (talk) 06:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

positivity

i strongly disagree with the redirecting of things such as positive hardcore and "posicore" to this article. not all positive hardcore bands are straight edge, and not all straight edge bands are positive. Shattered Realm, positive? xfilesx, positive? no.

sort it out. 90.196.216.109 (talk) 07:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm?

"Straight edge refers to a lifestyle and scene that started within the hardcore punk subculture whose adherents abstain from alcohol, smoking, and other recreational drug use, except in the summer."

Except in the summer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.13.132 (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC) yeah umm im pretty sure its a life long commitment with no summer breaks..... MAU MAU 16:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Revert War

Can I suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion as a way of resolving this? Millichip (talk) 11:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You be the third Opinion here then, which version is better? His huge cluttered one? or my short, neat and clean one? Correctus (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I might well be the wrong person to comment. I've no more than a passing interest in sXe - and all through Minor Threat etc. I've contributed to your version in that light. And the other editor's beef is that there is too much of an obsession with Minor Threat/ Mackaye. Which shows how little I know about the 'movement' now and reminds me how little I care about it. I couldn't tell what is clutter, and what isn't, without a lot of research. Priority is to have a stable article, I'd say. Sorry not to be more helpful, but I think I might just muddy the water a bit. Millichip (talk) 08:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think this article still has some of the NPOV problems it seems to have been thought of as having in some of the older posts on this page. It's clearly been written by people who are more familiar with the lifestyle, but the tone taken in the article is too familiar and involves too many disclaimant or footnote remarks like "Straightedge is a philosophy, not a religion..." etc. It sounds biased in parts and almost seems persuasive elsewhere. I flagged in for cleanup so hopefully people will try to edit out some of this and add more citations. Cwilli201 00:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thought I should add as well: words like "personal choice" constitute "weasel words," I would think. Cwilli201 00:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this really needed? Ted Nugent is also a legendary gun lover, and an active member of the N.R.A. (this in no way suggests that drugs chill you out)[3] What does that have to do with sXe? Tappanga (talk) 18:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

90s straight edge.

this article seems to skim over a very important time in the history of straight edge music. it makes brief mention of the 1990s, but should XxXSTRAIGHT EDGEXxX that really brought straight edge into the mainstream, like Earth Crisis, Strife, and Ten Yard Fight etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.63.79 (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

X For underage drinkers

On the page it says that marking people's hands with an X if they were underage never caught on, however this is a fairly common thing as far as I know (in New York they do it, I don't know about other states). It should be noted, in the article that today, many bars and clubs which are open to people who are 18, mark the hands of the underage in some way, and often it is just an X (sometimes it is a special stamp though, it does depend on the place). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.195.159 (talk) 03:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I've always been marked on the rare occasion I've been let into bars. I don't know that this is relevant to Straight edge proper though. It seems like the part you're referencing is referring to that particular era in DC area clubs. I've always been given a neon colored wristband instead of an X. Marking is common, but it doesn't really have much to do with straight edge. --Gimme danger 07:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

straight edgers

need to get rid of the term "Straight Edgers" it's simply Straight edge..

its not johnny is a straight edger

its Johnny is straight edge

Kidd13 21:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I use both. It doesn't really matter. Sion 14:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If you used the correct english you would stick to straight edge

The X on the hand

In the article, the following is stated:

     An 'X' on the back of the hand is a common straight edge symbol.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe many people write X's on their hands to show they are straight edge. These are mainly used in bars and clubs for all-ages shows so that the bar will deny them alcohol. The only thing i have seen similar to this is glovelettes with the xXx on them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.195.65 (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

They do. The practice of Xing up (writing the Xs on your hands in bold marker) started with the bars and clubs doing that to designate a person as underage. It's quite common. Sion 14:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Enough is enough (RE: Neautral POV)

All this debating and arguing with each other isn't getting anything accomplished. The fact is this article clearly needs some revision as far as the lack of neautrality in its language is concerned.

The large majority of this information can still be retained without making it seem biased or denegrating into revert or edit wars.

As such, I've begun work on it (but it's obviously going to take a while). I took the opening and I'm pretty sure the result is somethign that should satisfy all parties while taking in mind that this is an encyclopedia. --ScreenwriterJeb

Thank you. That was some nice work. --Gimme danger 03:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

The following is moved from my talk page, since I think it will be of more interest here.

The criticism section seems to have fallen flat, which is surprising. How hard is it to find someone panning straight edge in the press, alternative or mainstream? I have a bunch of other projects in the air right now and don't feel like dredging through that sort of schlock. But I think the only way to breathe life into the criticism section is to find examples of people actually criticising straight edge. I seem to recall some good interviews with MacKaye that might give up some good material.--Gimme danger 23:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I do believe that the criticism section should be brought back up, it's a relevant section that could easily be filled, those who drink caffeine are just as corrupt from straight edge as those who enjoy other legal and illegal stimulants. --FiftyOneWicked 14:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Verse is not a straight edge band, but has straight edge members and non edge members.

Criticism section is now deleted. I've heard a lot of shit talked about straight edge folks by people I know (to the tune of "I had a party at my house and some straight edge faggots came in and vandalized my house"), but a criticism section really needs citations so that type of thing won't do. --ScWizard (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

(a)No one has decided anything, and (b): you do not have the right to change an article based on how you feel (we are trying to make a non-biased article). Accept:I think it would add more to th article.--71.126.59.54 (talk) 07:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Banner Request

I am hereby requesting a banner for users to put in their user page to signify they follow a straight edge lifestyle. PayneXKiller 22:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is not that awful really

It's short, it has some historical perspective (which it didn't at one point), a lot of it's cited.P4k 08:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I'm straight edge, but I'm not punk

Or a rocker. Or tattoed. Or anything like that. Is there another article relevant to people who are abstinent to drugs/alcohol, but otherwise "look normal" (i.e. dress like your typical office worker). What would that be called? - Theaveng 11:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

> Straight Edge has a direct connection to punk/hardcore, I think Teetotalism comes close to what you are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism - User: Unkown 7:53, 28 September 2007 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.159.100.225 (talk)

>You don't have to dress punk to be punk, but you do have to be punk/hardcore, or at least associated with a hard rock counterculture to be straight edge.

> Not really, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_Francis is a hip hop rapper but he considers (or at least used to) himself straight edge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kravhimikat (talk • contribs) 21:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't listen to anyone who tells you you have to listen to punk music in your free time in order to be straight edge. Yes the term straight edge was coined by a hardcore band, but that doesn't mean you have to like that band. Minor Threat have said themselves that straight edge does not have a set of rules. Non-one died and left someone in control of telling everyone else what you have to listen to to be straight edge. Freikorp (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Corrections/Questions/Debates

I changed the introduction to include abstaining from casual sex as one of the main straight edge values, but said that this part was often ignored. while it is not always included, it was, without question, one of the original straight edge values. I suppose my main source would be from the Minor Threat song Out of Step "I don't drink/I don't smoke/I don't fuck". Also, hardline straight edge is not the term for straight edge with a gang mentality. hardline means traditional straight edge, sex included (sometimes even celibacy), veganism, no caffeine, and oftentimes no proscription drugs. the militant form of straight edge is often referred to as "hate-edge," though this is obviously more of a derogatory, jocular term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gtbob12 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, once again for the millionth time, hardline is something completely different from what you just said. read instead of just saying the same narrowminded/wrong crap as everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.246.234.91 (talk) 01:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

straight-edge.net

hey there, this is henning and I am running www.straight-edge.net for about 10 years now. It has become a nice archive with videos, bands, lyrics, reviews and so on concerning straight-edge. we have grown to a ca. 3000 user community so far.

Is there any chance straight-edge.net could be mentioned as an external link/resource here in this article? Would be great.

thanx and stay true henning

henning@imosh.de —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xpurebloodx (talk • contribs) 08:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Straight Edge, the peaceful way

--65.54.98.104 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)I think it would be interesting to see more information about the positive aspects of straight edge. I used to run Concert Committee at Southampton College in the 90's, and a group of us-some who DJ'd at the radio station WPBX, who were straight edge, sponsored straight edge concerts. It was a great way to throw a fun, clean music show or straight edge rave, and we didn't have to worry about people getting sick or driving drunk. Also, I would like to know if there are any female bands out there. It seemed the focus was mainly on the aggressive male bands towards the end. I know that our shows were diverse and peaceful. I think it's hypocritical to be Straight Edge and then go out and hurt people. -DJ Banshee65.54.98.104 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Violence and straightedge have nothing to do with eachother one way or the other. straightedge isn't inherently violent or nonviolent. If you're looking for female straightedge bands check Walls of Jericho, Gather, This Time Tomorrow, Kingdom, and I know there are others but those are the first that come to mind. -d

Hardline

I'm editing this page to make it stop furthering the idea that being hardline is just being militantly straightedge and linking to the actual hardline page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.85.110 (talk) 21:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Content lacking sources and opnions can not be considered facts.

"It has been rumored* that more well known idols such as Dane Cook and Davey Havok (lead vocalist of the Rock Band AFI) lead a straight-edge life style.

As Ian MacKaye and Porcell were considered the leaders of the straight-edge movements in their day- today Pat Flynn of Have Heart is considered the "King Of The Edge"."

I think it would be wise to delete this part, Straight Edge doesn't have leaders, it is not an organized group or anything. Also rumors don't seem appropriate for an encyclopedia. 85.159.100.225 (talk) 07:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

FallOut Boy, so why was Pete Wentz snapped in trendy clubs drinking? Wrong facts don't make wikipedia cool...Guns2006 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Davey is, but not Dane. I know Andy from FoB is vegan, not sure about edge though. Emmure 89 (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

~Davey Havok has publicized his straight edge lifestyle in practically every interview he has ever taken part in; he is also strictly vegan. Bandmate (AFI and Blaqk Audio) Jade Puget also follows the straight edge lifestlye and veganism. --68.193.163.234 (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC) (Divya da animal LVr...not logged in...sorry)

> Andy Hurley is straight-edge and Pete Wentz once was... I don't know what's up with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.7.221.194 (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

> Pete Wentz once was? If you're not now, you never were. User:hsxeric (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

About History

The following was moved from the History section of the article:

(edit: I disagree with these comments, and actually quite a bit of the below as well. I don't see where there was ever separation between straight edge and punk rock culture. Straight edge was always one of the many different subcultures of punk rock as a way of opposing the common degenerate rock lifestyle. Also, these "eras" are a bit misleading in my opinion and I disagree with labeling them. Yes, the straight edge movement has evolved as time has passed, but I wouldn't say there were different "eras", only bands taking different influences, this rubbing off onto another band, and so on. At the same time, you would have a more "new school" influenced band and an "old school" influenced band. Also, it has always been common for straight edge bands to play with non-straight edge bands. Granted often there would be a straight edge show with all bands leading that lifestyle, but the way it is portrayed below makes it sound like the two never mixed, which was clearly not the case.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.143.171 (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sexual Abstinence

I have also heard people referring to straight edge as no drugs, alcohol, or premarital sex. Should this be added, or is it too uncommon? Thudunder (talk) 02:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The introduction covers that issue pretty well I think.EchetusXe (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd add it but whatever MAU MAU 16:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MauMau4life (talk • contribs)

Benni says: abstaining from premarital sex is an christian institution. christians do is. edgers not. straight edge kids have sex (in a relationship) before marriage. 13.feb.010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.132.177.184 (talk) 11:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Athlete

Professional Wrestlers are not athletes, as their job does not entail competition in an athletic event where the outcome is unknown. Athletes do not participate in fixed competitions. While their job may entail their being in athletic shape and doing things only athletic people are able to do, the same may be said of ballerinas, stunt men, acrobats, and magicians. None of these are athletes, yet they may be athletic.

Therefore, I changed CM Punk to an entertainer, not athlete.

I think many people would consider dancers and acrobats athletes. Being an entertainer doesn't exclude you from being an athlete either, as professional athletes are entertainers. I'm not advocating a change on the page, just pointing out that you've quickly dismissed a huge debate. 130.127.3.249 (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)JML

Chocolate?

I was handing around a pack of chocolates (a bag of Revels) when my straight edged friend smacked the packet out of my hand in disgust and told me that it was in no uncertain terms 'straight' to eat chocolate. We were sort of stunned and went quiet for a moment frankly and didn't mention it again. I could understand in refusing the coffee creme, but is chocolate now not straight? What chapter do you think she belongs to? OoohOoohAaah (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

None, she's just trying to be cool. and failing, because being straight-edge for many years I have NEVER heard of that. She probably got it from role models. Guns2006 (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Since caffeine naturally occurs in cacao and chocolate is made from cacao, your friend might have been upset at the fact that you were trying to give her a 'drug'. I know a lot of straight edge people who were caffeine free, in addition to the big guys (alcohol, cigarettes, narcotics, etc). Chilly grillz (talk) 01:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

From the sound of it however, her reaction and the attitude, she probably copied it from people she's seen as straight edge, thinking it's a trend though Guns2006 (talk) 15:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

for a musical history lesson on this, check out Good Clean Fun - "sweet tooth", a humorous account on the 1990s debate on whether sugar was vegan or not... also some sxe people think that everything that makes your body feel good is not sxe. chocolate is yummy, can't be sxe... for some people it is just a purity contest... 190.22.65.194 (talk) 20:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Benni says: no item can be "straight" or "straight edge" ! example: bananas cannot be edge or not-edge. persons can be. is chocolate alc, cig, drugs or promiscous sex? no? so you can eat chocolate as a straight edge kid

Gangs

However ridiculous it is to label a subculture a gang in comparison to the Latin Kings, The Crips or Bloods or some sort of Mafia is it happening and police are trying to connect bits and pieces of criminal behaviour to the entire subculture I think there should be a section in here at least mentioning this http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4084079 http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/3/2/9/9/p32993_index.html

Veganism as a core straight edge value

I am surprised to see that veganism does not appear as a core straight edge value. On the other hand, there is no sign of debate about it. Unless there is any objection, I plan to add it as a central theme to the article. -- M L (talk) 04:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

better idea: why don't you start ab article on vegan straight edge? most sxe people are NOT vegan, quite a lot aren't even vegetarian. some are raw foodists or fruitarians. veganism is NOT part of straight edge. however there is a certain subgroup of vegan sxe people and bands that deserve attention. vegan sxe bands would be for example earth crisis, purification, purified in blood, gather, seven generations and many others. a symbol for vegan sxe is "XVX". there has been a first ave of vsxe in the 1990s and we currently experience a second wave with new bands. vsxe is related to ideas of earth liberation, animal liberation and sometime crimethinc. on the other end of vsxe there would be hardline and muslim vsxe. 190.22.65.194 (talk) 20:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

benni says: word do that guy over my post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.132.177.184 (talk) 11:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Recents edits

I am not pleased with the recent edits that have been made. The link to the history of Straight Edge has been deleted and now redirects to this article. Also some serious edits have taken place without "evidence" or links to other articles that justify the edits. I have never heard Veganism being a part of the core for straight edge. Some are vegan, some are vegetarian and some or not. But there is not a single piece of evidence that shows that Veganism is a core part of Straight Edge. I think we should revert to an previous version or maybe even redo the whole article. 85.159.97.6 (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• An editor redirected History of straight edge here because that article was pretty much an exact duplication of content that already appears here. I don't see anything in the article that says veganism is "part of the core" of straightedge. However, the lead paragraph does say: "Some people in the straight edge movement embrace a vegetarian lifestyle and others abstain from all animal products, a philosophy known as veganism. These two choices are considered add-ons to the straight edge lifestyle and are not essential aspects of the movement."' That seems pretty accurate.Spylab (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

?

"Straight Edge is typically referred to as a lifestyle in which followers abstain from the use of Drugs, Alcohol and from casual sex, which stands for being in a sexual relationship with someone without being serious about it. Some hardliners are also vegan and abstain from caffeine consumption. Some do it just to be cool."

Is the bolded part really needed? Oh and no BTW, Veganism is not a core value of straight edge. (13Tawaazun14 not signed in)00:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Just remove junk like that without posting in the talk page that you have done so. Stupid stuff gets posted on wikipedia all the time, just undo the edit next time. EchetusXe (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Edge individuals

Since there has been lots of adding and deleting recently of CM Punk as a straight edge personality, I figured I'd open this topic to discussion among us all. The last addition of CM Punk was deleted with the edit tag: "CM punk has no relevance or importance to straight edge. the article isn't about individuals who are straight edge." This being said, should there be a new section added to the page titled "Straight Edge Individuals" or should this be given it's own page entirely? Or is there such a lack of notable straight edge followers that such a list would be unecessary? Thoughts? Hsxeric (talk 15:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to list almost every notable band that has followed this lifestyle, why not make mention of those notable individuals that do so as well? What makes these bands more important than the individual people also follow the lifestyle? I'd also have to say that CM Punk is probably more publicly-known than most of the bands that are listed here, and would probably have more of an effect of making people aware of the straight edge lifestyle right now. As far as an addition goes, a section on this article would be more suitable, unless we can get enough reliable sources to make a list with the length of, say, List of vegetarians. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 06:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

because what cm punk is doing is using straight edge as a marketing gimmick to further his wrestling career. It's already outlined in his own wiki. What he does in the WWE has no impact to what is going on within straight edge at all. He has no direct involvement in what is going on, unlike bands, so why list him? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 12:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

He uses it as part of his wrestling gimmick yes, but he actually does follow the lifestyle outside of the ring; it's not just something he does on camera to sell himself. Note the sentence you cite: Throughout his career, Punk has consistently used the gimmick of being straight edge, a lifestyle he follows in real life. Certainly there's enough room on this article for people who follow the lifestyle, and Punk is (despite your claims otherwise) one of those followers. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 19:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

and that's exactly my point, all he does is use if for a marketing gimmick. He very well may actually be straight edge in his "real life", but he has no interaction or involvement with the movement/lifestyle as a whole, therefore mention here as opposed to the wiki entry about him doesn't really make such sense. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

well what does one need to do to "interact" or be "involved with the movement?" I thought straight edge was a lifestyle, not a platform for social change. afterall, we aren't out to try and convert people or anything like that. Hsxeric (talk 2:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

have you listened to the lyrics of most straight edge songs? It's all about social change, just not necessarily forcefully. If it's just a lifestyle choice and not about social change, the what's the point of it existing and then how is it any different from simply being drug free? If someone wants to point out where CM Punk has done anything more with the straight edge community than just calling himself straight edge and having tattoo's then I'll change my tune, but until then, my opinion stands. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I don't know a thing about CM Punk, but being a popular WWE wrestler, chances are that kids out there are affected and influenced by him. Just think about wrestling fans who don't listen to hardcore and may have never heard of straight edge. Because of him, they probably now know what it is. Sure, I can't prove this, but how can you prove that he hasn't influnced anyone? Hsxeric (talk 10:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying he made people aware of the "label" straight edge both for the good and bad i.e. his gimmick of "straight edge means I'm better than you", what I am saying is that his being straight edge is covered in his own wiki and that his gimmick has no impact on what is happening in straight edge today. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 00:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed "saying straight edge and drug free but most dont know if it is just his gimmick or that he actually is straight edge." Try to keep the material NPOV please and avoid weasel words. Livewireo (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Record Labels

The only straight edge record labels that currently exist are Double Crossed (UK), and Seventh Dagger (US). I do NOT work for Seventh Dagger yet for some reason this information keeps getting deleted. Straight edge record labels are just as important if not more important than the straight edge bands that are currently active members of the edge community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.37.4.82 (talk) 13:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

and what are you basing that statement on? Neither of those labels are the first no are they the only labels that ever existed. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 01:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The site's also not a place to spam links for the label. If the label meets the notability guidelines, then create an article about it and put the link in there, but otherwise stop spamming this article with it. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 04:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Commitment records from Holland is also a straight edge label for over ten years now and there are multipule other examples. Also I think the list of bands in the Era 2000 section isn't representative for that area, I see some bands listed that have little or no relevance and are probably added by fans of those bands but they dont represent a real view of the most important bands from this era. 85.159.97.5 (talk) 06:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

There are also a whole bunch of Vegan Straight Edge labels, such as New Eden Records and xCatalystx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.100.59 (talk) 05:49, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

New Picture

The New main picture for the article is a little amateurish and frankly doesn't represent the straight edge culture too accurately. Perhaps something like a well known and reputable album cover from a iconic edge band, like Ten Yard Fight, of Earth Crisis would be more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgelife (talk • contribs) 21:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Debate over what constitutes a Straightedge lifestyle

After that line in the opening paragraph should we state what there is considerable debate over? I.e casual sex, caffeine, meat etc. I mention this as this may stop people who believe any or all of the above from adding it to the list of what all straightedge people abstain from. As far as I can tell everyone only agrees on alcohol/smoking/drugs. I had one edge guy tell me I couldn't drink soft drink, Minor Threat guitarist Brian Baker had a Coca Cola tattoo.--Freikorp (talk) 09:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand where he got that idea from, the only ingredients of soft drinks that some people don't believe to be "good" include sugar and caffeine - and I believe that coca-cola does (Hence the "coca"). Straight Edge means different things to different people. Your friend is right to think that, but it isn't a compulsory part of sXe. --rjcuk (talk) 10:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for agreeing with me, my point exactly, many things which are considered Straight Edge are not necessarily compulsory elements. As no-one has objected to my proposal, I have updated the page accordingly. Please discuss here before making any significant edits to the introduction. I firmly believe it is NPOV and is the most accurate description possible. --Freikorp (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I chug about 6 cans of pepsi a day so I think that cola exclusion is tarded PXK ^T /_C 21:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

list of bands?

I'm pretty sure Davey Havok and Jade Puget of the band AFI follow this; it says on their own Wiki articles. Should we add in a section for bands? If there already is one, whoops... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.163.234 (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This is correct, I expected to see something about them in the article because they are two of the most recognizable straight edge people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.114.158.88 (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Lifetime Commitment

it seems that i'm the first to point this out, but isn't Straight Edge a lifetime commitment? shouldn't this be worth noting? and the fact that "sellouts" exist? now i'm not condoning this kind of behavior, because i have many friends that "used to be" straight edge
edit: i took it upon myself to add a "sellout" section, please discuss... —Preceding unsigned comment added by xdietryingx (talk • contribs) 17:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The use of "lifetime" in the opening sentence is what made me check this talk page. I'm not straight edge, but most of the people I know that had claimed to be straight edge diverged it. Many seem to say they're committed at the time, but as time progresses (or they can legally drink), they relax the rules or give up the lifestyle completely. Because of my personal experiences, I would say it's hard to categorize it as a lifetime commitment, though actually followers may disagree.Ost (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree most people do not adhere to Starightedge for their entire life, but this does not change the fact that it is supposed to be a lifetime commitment. Marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment, dosn't mean it's going to turn out that way. --Freikorp (talk) 01:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

benni says: in my opinion the Lifetime Commitment is VERY important. cuz claiming/breaking/reclaiming edge is stupid. when you do something.. do it right. somone who broke edge never was edge in my opinion.

Straight edge could be my new brother in law

My sister in law is dating a straight edge. Could some please give me a quick run down of what its all about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.13.16.138 (talk) 02:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Dude, checkout the FAQ at the bottom of the article. I wouldn't be too worried.--Freikorp (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a new band

where it is discussing the putting of X's before and after the name of a band it lists xDeathstarx. However, xDeathstarx is broken up as of April 4th, so perhaps a different straight edge band should be listed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.165.135.127 (talk) 07:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Seriously

We need to consider changing the picture on the page. I don't know how to correctly, but It poorly represents straight edge in general as an in your face attitude put on display all over the place when its not. The caption is ridiculous as well. 173.23.4.187 (talk) 04:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I can see your point, any suggestions for what we should replace it with? I have a fairly decent 'sXe' tattoo I could take a photo of if you think that would be slightly more appropriate :). --Freikorp (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be a picture of a band doing gang vocals with a group where the X's on their hands are clearly visible, and the caption should say "Straight Edge individuals regularly attend Hardcore Punk shows with bands that share the same philosophy, the X has become a de-facto symbol of Straight Edge" this would outline our connection with Hardcore and The X because I myself being straight edge,I have never really met anyone who is straight edge who goes to such lengths as the picture displayed. National Edge Day is coming up, and i'm seeing Have Heart's last show that day, I'll see if I can snap some pictures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.34.160 (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

This article is terrible

It does nothing to describe the other strands of straight edge (hardline, anyone?), half the mentioned bands do not even have an article, the description of the decades are absolutely abbysmal, and there are no explanantions for why people become straight edge. The main picture is BARELY true (X's on hands would be more appropriate). And I think it is missing some very crucial articles as well, such as

Health Benefits and Concerns
Ethics
Etymology
Terminology and Varieties

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dude018219293 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

hardline isn't all that relevant. rather than bitching diy 02:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

stop removing promiscuous sex

promiscuous sex is another part of straight edge

I really think we need to find a compromise here, I agree the majority of Edge people I know refrain from promiscuous sex but I know some who don't. It goes with the whole Straight Edge never having a set of rules. No-one died and left someone in control of telling everyone else what Straight Edge is or isn't. Freikorp (talk) 10:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Abstaining from Promiscuous sex is as much a part of Straight edge as abstaining from cigarettes. Lyrics to Out of Step, anyone? "Don't Smoke, Don't Drink, Don't Fuck" I simply do not believe anyone who has promiscuous sex is anymore straight edge than someone who smokes cigarettes, but doesn't drink or do drugs. This is not the same as vegan or vegetarianism, as these are elements that developed much later as a subculture within straight edge.

Let's just have one conversation about this, discuss at Talk:Straight_edge#Promiscuity. Freikorp (talk) 06:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

benni says: WORD! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.132.177.184 (talk) 11:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

clean up the talk page

Would it be too much to request the talk page be cleaned up a bit? Some of these topics are totally irrelevant to the article, and are very out of date. xdevilockex (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Done :) Freikorp (talk) 05:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Healthy Dieting

I hate smoking, drinking, drugs, caffeine, promiscuity, and unhealthy diets; I also hate the fact that this article pimps veganism instead of heathy dieting. I come from a 50,000 year old line of meat eaters, so I need my L-phenylalanine, B-vitamins, and L-tyrosine; my genes were made to eat meat, this article could lead alot of straightedgers into alkalosis and nutrient deprivation. I have a degree in fitness and nutrition, Read Eat Right 4 Your Type by Dr. Peter J. D'Adamo. BTW, I LOVE vegetables. :) Change veganism to healthy dieting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.173.37.122 (talk) 16:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Promiscuity

Promiscuity should be added to the definition of straight edge, not the "considerable debate" part. Because in the Minor Threat song "Out of step" Ian says, "don't drink, don't smoke, don't FUCK" That's also what the three X's stand for: don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.73.34 (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

True, the Minor Threat song did mention abstaining from sex, but Minor Threat did NOT invent the straight edge lifestyle. Therefore, their rules are NOT the rules of straight edge. And the Xs are for tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. - User:hsxeric —Preceding comment was added at 01:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The x's stand for the three stars in the washington DC flag taken from the artwork from minor threat show flyers, there is no greater meaning to them.70.17.64.52 (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

True, that is where the Xs came from originally, but over time they have been adopted as meaning alcohol, tobacco, and drugs by many edge people. Hsxeric (talk 10:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

source? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

"Out Of Step" is the source. To claim that one Minor Threat song gives the whole theology its name yet another does not define it is ridiculous. "Don't Drink, Don't Smoke, Don't Fuck." It's clear and simple. Those 3 values make the 3 X's. Those are not the hardline ethics, hardline is much more. 12.37.4.82 (talk) 13:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Again though, Minor Threat did NOT invent the straight edge lifestyle, just the term. Therefore, they did NOT define what it means. Hsxeric (talk 12:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Out of step also said "this isn't a set of rules" and says that playing golf is dumb too. You sure the third x isn't about not playing golf? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 02:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Dammit. I played golf the other day. I guess I broke edge? Hsxeric (talk 2:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You notice, at the bottom of the page there is a link to a Straight Edge FAQ, and question 3-1 is about why are there so many rules which states: "The hallmarks of straight-edge remain hardcore/punk music and don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck." Read more: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/section-70.html

The faq hasn't been update in over a decade. There just isn't any proof that this is "major tenet" like you keep saying. It simply isn't reflected in the culture. You can find plenty of evidence of an anti drug stance not anti sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a quote from Phoenix New Times article called White Punks on Hope

Developed in the immediate wake of the sexual revolution, the early straight-edge creed was against promiscuity--just another self-destructive force blindly accepted by the masses. "A lot of people don't take the 'don't have sex' thing so seriously anymore," says Eric Corder. "But a lot of people are also still with that. It's basically just about getting free of things that control your mind."

I believe this is a credited source of journalism, that describes the situation. It was initially a major tenant of sXe, but in recent years a large group of people have stopped following it. I believe this is similar to the large group who follow a vegan diet, it's not an original tenant of sXe but there is a large group within Straight Edge who follow a slightly different lifestyle. I would classify Non-abstinent sXe similar to Vegan-sXe. Both Should be included in the page, but not as core sXe values. Abstaining from sexual promiscuity should be included in the core values. Those who do not adhere to it should have a subheading on the page. Also, if you spend any time on straight-edge.net you will find the "scene" in Germany is very much still adhering to the "don't fuck" aspect of sXe. xdevilockex (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I found another published article in the Toronto Star on Jan 28 2006, the most recent published journalist source I've found so far.

Breaking edge by drinking alcohol or having casual sex can be taken very personally.

which clearly reflects the opposition to promiscuous sex.xdevilockex (talk) 19:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The article you're talking about just illustrates the point. If a large group of people don't follow it, how is it a major tenant? Recreational drug use is universally accepted as being against straight edge, by your own admission sex isn't, so why would you try and say that it is? 71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Let me ask you something. What would happen if a large group of people who are currently Straight Edge suddenly decided they were going to smoke cigarettes, but still considered themselves Edge? The people who don't smoke would look on those that do, and not really consider them as part of the culture. That's what has happened with promiscuous sex. If you have promiscuous sex, you aren't edge. I don't care what you call yourself, or how many others are with you. Edge is now, and will always be hardcore punk music, and don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. The choices that individuals make does not change that, and if Ian MacKaye lit up a crack pipe, and said that sXe kids could smoke crack and still be Edge, it would not change what being sXe really is. xdevilockex (talk) 04:13, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but you're incorrectly assuming that this was something that was important to everyone from the beginning. Look at the music, the most accurate portrayal of straight edge beliefs. How many songs can you find about recreational drug use? Now, how many can you find about sex? I've been edge for over 20 years at this point and I have never in those 20 years ever heard of or met anyone who "sold out" via sex. What you're talking about simply isn't reflected in the scene. It may be important to some people, like playing golf, but it isn't by any means a "major tenant"71.163.7.75 (talk) 12:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Now where is your credited journalist source? and again I quote:

Developed in the immediate wake of the sexual revolution, the early straight-edge creed was against promiscuity--just another self-destructive force blindly accepted by the masses.

Because apparently that's all that matters when it comes to the Wikipedia article. xdevilockex (talk) 15:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

That quote is a single line from an article written 14 years ago. I'm not arguing at all that Minor Threat wrote a song that talked against casual sex. What I am arguing is that it isn't a "major tenet" and isn't reflected at all in what straight edge is now. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

@Xdevilockex You found your sources. They seem credible from my point of view. cheers.--Guerillero | My Talk 18:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to argue? Because first I'm told that there are no credible sources that reflect that abstaining from promiscuity is still a core value of sXe. I FIND sources that prove this, as recent as 2006. Then I'm told that I'm incorrect to assume that this was something important to the movement from the beginning. So, I suggest a source that may be from 14 years ago, but clearly reflects the position against sexual promiscuity from the formation of the movement, because of the sexual revolution. Now You're back to arguing that opposition to promiscuity isn't what Straight edge is now, regardless of what it was from the beginning. Let's not keep going back and forth on this. Fact is, from the start of the movement non-promiscuity was a core value (See White Punks on Hope, from the Phoenix New Times August 22, 1996). According to a modern journalist source, it is still a core value (See Adherents to sXe say it's no trend, from The Toronto Star January 28, 2006). If you want EVEN MORE published, legitimate sources, see my user page. How about your argument that it isn't part of the current "scene"? Well, I asked the guys on the forum at straight-edge.net and they are very adamant about their stance against promiscuity, and most of them do not consider anyone having promiscuous sex a genuine member of the Straight Edge community. xdevilockex (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Your source from 2006 talks about how it isn't widely followed, so I don't really see how you think it's still a core value (i'd argue that it never was since with the exception of one minor threat song, it wasn't reflected in the larger culture but that's a different argument), if a lot of people don't live by it? Or are you going to try and say that people who are straight edge don't have casual sex? And that's great about the german community, but what about every other straight edge website? What do they say? Where is the reflection in the culture? Not just articles that make the same mistake you do, and just quote out of step, but the ones that actually talk about it? 71.163.7.75 (talk) 02:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

My source from 2006 says nothing of the sort. Why don't you read the article, before you make claims about it. I am saying that people who have casual sex and claim Edge are not Edge at all. I have cited seven sources on my personal info page. feel free to read all of them. They are published sources of notable journalism, and verifiable. They meet the standards for Encyclopedic content for Wikipedia. What people on message boards say does not. What you say does not. xdevilockex (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The quote from the article (which by the way doesn't appear to be available from the paper itself, so it could be edited or bogus) doesn't say "Some sXe people do fool around with girls — and that's not sXe."? Have you tried looking at the other sources that are already listed in the article for support, preferably in books who's authors are experienced with the subject matter? I guess I'm confused since you're saying that there are people who are straight edge that have casual sex and now you're saying because you say so, they're not straight edge? If your point is that in it's history there have been folks involved who have had issues with casual sex, then that's fine and I don't think anyone would argue that. If your point is that everyone who is straight edge doesn't have casual sex, that's simply not true and isn't reflected in the culture no matter how much you wish it was. The one thing that is universally accepted is being against recreational drug use. This entire dialog and the previously agreed definition illustrates that casual sex clearly isn't universally accepted so I don't understand your instance that it is.71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that everyone who CLAIMS to be straight edge abstains from casual sex. I am saying that anyone who CLAIMS sXe, and has casual sex, is not genuine sXe. Just as if a large movement within the culture were to start smoking cigarettes and still claim Edge, the remainder who do not smoke would never consider them to be Edge. But, I have verifiable sources that state from the origins of sXe non-promiscuity was part of the culture, and other recent sources that indicate that it still is. The fact that you disagree does not change the definition of sXe. Also, you are quoting the person being interviewed in the article. I quoted the assertions of the article itself. Taking the context of the article as a whole, it is clear that promiscuous sex is not acceptable practice for sXe. If any person who claims edge openly has casual sex, it would be in their best interest not to run into me on the street. There is an NRA patch on my jacket for a reason. xdevilockex (talk) 03:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Okeydokey let's put the guns down for a minute. I mentioned some time ago we need to reach a compromise on this. How about including in the opening paragraph something along the lines of 'originally straight edgers also abstained from promiscuous sex, however today many people claiming edge do not adhere to this rule'. I totally get what xdevilockex is saying about how if people who smoke said they were edge others straight edgers would not appreciate it, however as far as I know there are not people claiming this, whereas the sex issue seems to be a constant source of contention. Generally when I tell people I'm straight edge one of the first questions they ask me is whether or not I adhere to the no promiscuous sex rule (I'm married, I can assure you the only person I have sex with is my wife), my point being this is something even mainstream society has noticed has changed about straight edge, regardless of wether individuals think it is right or not.. Freikorp (talk) 08:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I like the way it is phrased in the article from the Phoenix New Times.

Developed in the immediate wake of the sexual revolution, the early straight-edge creed was against promiscuity--just another self-destructive force blindly accepted by the masses. "A lot of people don't take the 'don't have sex' thing so seriously anymore," says Eric Corder. "But a lot of people are also still with that. It's basically just about getting free of things that control your mind."

Basically saying how it was from the beginning, why it was, and that a lot of people do follow it, though a lot of people don't. If you could capture the essence of that in the opening paragraph, I would be happy with a compromise. xdevilockex (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

how it was in the beginning was that people could drink a beer here and there and still be edge. It's not like that now, things change. The top paragraph is a summary, not a history. putting it there doesn't make sense. Where it does make sense is in the early paragraph and talking about history. But your continued insistance that it's a core value just isn't reflected by the reality that's out there. Straight Edge is shaped by the people who are in it and what they believe. You can disagree with it, but you're not in any position to enforce your agenda on anyone. The fact is that for an awful lot of people now, casual sex has nothing to do with drug use and therefore nothing to do with straight edge. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Benni says: beeing non-promiscous is DEFINITELY a part of straight edge! without you can clal yourself "drug free" but not "edge". 13.feb.010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.132.177.184 (talk) 11:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm who's Benni? I had no idea back in the early days you could still have a beer and be edge, interesting. Anyway the opening paragraph used to read "Since its inception there has been considerable debate over what constitutes a straight edge lifestyle. It is agreed the main objective is to not "poison" the body in any way." Thoughts on adding that passage (or something like it) to the opening and then having a paragraph about what the debate is? Possibly also mentioning other less contentious issues like caffeine. Freikorp (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

It should be mentioned in the opening paragraph. But we can't say some straight edge people refrain from casual sex because the word "some" is a weasel word. Hmmm. I will think about this. --Guerillero | My Talk 22:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Benni is a guy who posts on straight-edge.net a lot. I'm glad my argument is being heard. How about something to the effect of how a portion of people who claim to be Edge have "strayed from the original creed" while others have become more restrictive incorporating abstaining from eating meat or even caffeine. All of these people consider themselves straight edge, and consider this lifetime commitment to the movement their motivation to do so. They should be mentioned in the opening paragraph.xdevilockex (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I have written a potential update to the opening paragraph.

Straight Edge refers to an existentialist subculture of hardcore punk, which was a direct reaction to the sexual revolution, headonism, and excess associated with punk rock. The major tenant of Straight Edge centers around self-control, and the responsibility of each person to regain as much personal control as possible. The original creed was focused on harcore music, refraining from taking recreational drugs, including drinking alcohol and using tobacco products, and abstaining from promiscuous sex. The term was coined by the 1980s hardcore punk band Minor Threat in the song "Straight Edge".

xdevilockex (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I like the way that is written. What really needs to be determined now is whether we should mention in the opening paragraph that it was originally a major tenant, and then mentioning later in the article it is no longer universally followed, or vice versa. That reference is perfect though, as it can be used to cite that many people don't follow the no sex rule anymore as well. Freikorp (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we need to define any "major tenants" or "core values" I wrote it the way I did so it would simply state that the core of Straight Edge is self control, and the original creed was don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. I think there should be subheadings for drugs, sex, vegetarian/vegan, militant sXe, violence, controversy, press, and so on. We can expand on the depth and history of each one under their own headings. I think that the lack of reference to the infamous 20/20 interview, and the security at the olympics in SLC being warned about sXe kids, is really cutting out some important historical events, regardless of weather they paint the best picture of us to the world. xdevilockex (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I like that opening paragraph. I also like your ideas of how to expand the article. --Guerillero | My Talk 22:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's my two cents. The whole "casual sex" claim is ridiculous. Straight Edge was founded on the belief that one should not poison the body and mind with harmful substances like alcohol, drugs, and tobacco. Safe casual sex does not harm the body or mind. If we're going to add casual sex to the list of things one must abstain from, then we might as well add meat, eggs, cheese, milk, chocolate, coffee, and cappuccino to the list. We should also then state that you must be a Christian and not wear leather. The Wiki definition for Straight Edge MUST include everything that ANYONE considers a necessity. Catch my drift (sarcasm)? But seriously, the lyrics to "Out Of Step" did NOT define or create the movement. Sure, they were a part of spreading it, but if we found out that some band from the early 80's was going around preaching that to be Straight Edge you had to abstain from showering, would that automatically be part of the movement? I think not. Therefore, what a few people consider a necessity (based on song lyrics) is not necessarily a sound argument; hence, it should not be added to the definition. Please keep in mind, this is coming from a neutral point of view, as I personally am NOT sexually active and do not/have never engaged in casual sex. Hsxeric (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I consider myself a recovering sex addict. I've destroyed people emotionally. I've destroyed myself. I've never been drunk in my life, never done drugs, never smoked. But I have had therapy for sex addiction. It controlled my life, and consumed me. I assure you, promiscuity is as detrimental, addictive, and destructive as any drug. But that isn't what we're talking about. Fact is, I have offered credible, verifiable sources that say that from the beginning, Straight Edge was against promiscuity. By all means, I suggest you go and find legitimate verifiable sources that claim that Straight edge was not against promiscuity from the beginning. This article isn't about your opinion. I going to change the opening paragraph, if no one objects.xdevilockex (talk) 02:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Your bias is incredibly transparent. The Phoenix Music article that you keep saying is a credible, verified source as proof, only mentions sex on in a couple lines on the second page. In fact the first page of the article illustrates what I and others have been saying, sex may have been apart of it based on a single song from Minor Threat, but it is by no means a core belief, nor is it universal. "That's because for these kids, "X" stands for "straight edge," a growing faction within the punk-rock subculture that stands against tobacco, alcohol, speed and all the other pollutants legendary punkers like Sid Vicious and Darby Crash poisoned themselves with.

"More than anything, [straight edge] is a chemical-free way to live," explains Eric Corder, who co-edits the Phoenix straight-edge 'zine Catch Phraze with Shelly Delbridge. "A lot of people have crutches in one form or another. Straight edge is just a rejection of those crutches."" There's a reason why there's an emphasis on drugs and alcohol and not sex. There's a reason why sex wasn't mentioned here: http://homepages.nyu.edu/~alr237/ssd_thechoice.jpg It just wasn't and isn't that central. Don't let your issues and agenda blind you from the reality of what's out there. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

and one more thing to illustrate my previous point: http://www.oldtimehardcore.com/interviews/default.asp?id=18 Mark McKay from Slapshot talking about straight edge. "What exactly is "Straight Edge"? How does Slapshot fit in? DOES the band fit in? Mark McKay: Straight Edge to us, and what it always has been, is no drinks, no drugs, don't smoke, just keep your mind straight. That was your Straight Edge. .The kids today have kind of fumed it and are adding new things on. They're saying, "Well, in order to be TRUE Straight Edge, you got to be a vegetarian." And we're like, '"Wait a minute, you don't have to be a vegetarian, just don't screw up your mind." So they say, "You aren't Straight Edge if you eat meat." So, do we fit in now, or not? I tend to think of Slapshot as classic Straight Edge. The last of a dying breed, unfortunately." notice, no mention of sex and this is an interview from 1989. There's also another article at http://exclaim.ca/articles/research.aspx?csid1=82 that again talks about sex in passing along with vegetarianism and veganism71.163.7.75 (talk) 04:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I've quoted half a dozen sources that all cite promiscuity as an original and current tenant of sXe. The fact that you have found sources that don't mention it, doesn't contradict sources that do. I read the complete article from exclaim.ca and found nothing to contradict my position. So far, I have yet to see any hard evidence to justify not mentioning promiscuous sex in the opening paragraph. I believe the paragraph I have written is accurate in depicting straight edge as a movement of self control. xdevilockex (talk) 20:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

actually, they do. Especially since 2 of them are from first hand sources and not articles about straight edge written by people who don't know anything about the subject.71.163.7.75 (talk) 21:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but just because one article neglects one thing, doesn't disprove six other articles that mention it. That's not the way Wikipedia works. Freikorp is a "Yeoman Editor" and Guerillero also has a service badge, both of them have agreed that my opening paragraph is a good compromise. I put a lot of effort in finding proper sources, and writing it in a way that would not insist that every person who claims straight edge adheres to the original creed. You are not even a registered user. I think that you are going to have to accept that the article is not going to be how you want it.xdevilockex (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You do realize that SSD was one of the original straight edge bands, right? And that the insert disproves your insistence that promiscuous sex was part of the "original creed". If it was, it would have been included. Now, where it does make sense is in the article portion in the 80's. Your six articles aren't good. They're not accurate. And they certainly aren't anywhere near as detailed as the exclaim one. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 01:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The longer this conversation goes on the more I am actually learning about Edge. Btw while I certainly appreciate the vote of confidence on a personal level service badges do not make one users opinion more valuable than anothers. I said I liked the way that opening paragraph was written, I still think we need to reach a consensus on this, and now that 71.163.7.75 has provided new references they need to be taken into consideration. Those two reference are from reliable sources, which goes to show even if it was a original tenant for some or even most people it was not universal then. I am all for compromises. The quote in that article "In its simplest form, straight edge is a simple philosophy of staying clean and sober: no drinking, no drugs, no smoking. For some, that extends to a vegetarian or vegan diet, no animal by-products, caffeine, or even promiscuous sex and prescription medications." seems like a accurate overall description. Perhaps we could provide further references that show of all the things Edge extends to promiscuous sex is the most popular. 71.163.7.75 how do you think the opening paragraph should be worded? Where and in what capacity (if at all) do you think the sex issue should be mentioned. I definitely think it should be mentioned somewhere, I just remained unconvinced as to where. Freikorp (talk) 05:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I actually prefer the description in the exclaim article. It's fair and accurate. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I found this interesting:

"Ian: Like Straight Edge, people have taken it to an extreme...as far as i'm concerned all we did was put out an idea... if people wanna hear it as preaching if that's what they want. Straight edge to me is someone who is alert enough to benefit from what he or she is doing...

"Lyle: the drug and alcohol is only one side of it anyway, it's alot more than that, there are other things that can sidetrack you...

"Ian: That's what "don't Fuck" means... alot of people think that to be straight edge you can't drink, smoke, or have sex and that's silly... what the don't fuck thing is that the whole getting laid and getting head thing

"Lyle: living for sex

"Ian: following your penis around is fucking people up more than anything"

From a Minor Threat interview in Touch & Go zine from 1983, before they broke up. To me it sounds like Ian was under the impression that his lyrics had inspired the movement, and the three rules of sXe had come directly from what he said. But, he wasn't limiting it to those things, it could be anything, even playing golf. So is sXe a movement to not do drugs, or is it a movement to live life without being controlled by substances, bad habits, or even your dick... To me the movement is about self-control, not about abstaining from drugs. Abstaining from drugs is such a small part of it. Anyway, this article is pretty neat. http://history.louisvillehardcore.com/index.php?title=Lexicon:Straight_Edge xdevilockex (talk) 06:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You're neglecting the fact that Ian and Minor Threat weren't the only ones involved in the founding, shaping and growth of the movement and they both bailed pretty early on in the history. This is why only looking towards one source is dangerous and inaccurate. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think your comment addressed anything I just said. Straight edge is deeper than just "don't do drugs". It's a philosophical movement. It doesn't seem to matter how many sources I provide, there's no convincing you. I don't think you care what my sources say, you're going to be convinced of your own will regardless.xdevilockex (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, are there any objections to:

Straight Edge refers to an existentialist subculture of hardcore punk, which was a direct reaction to the sexual revolution, headonism, and excess associated with punk rock.[1][2] In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and any other recreational drugs. For some, this extends to following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs, or engaging in promiscuous sex.[3] The term was coined by the 1980s hardcore punk band Minor Threat in the song "Straight Edge".

Of course the 'history' section of the article can always be expanded to include what tenants were followed more than others at certain times. Freikorp (talk) 05:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good Freikorp --Guerillero | My Talk 20:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Updated due to no objections. Freikorp (talk) 00:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh, it's a step in the right direction at least. xdevilockex (talk) 01:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Recent changes

Does the website http://www.toefur-straightedge.com meet the standards as a reliable source? It appears to just be a self published site maintain by an individual. It also appeard to have not been updated for 7 years. (See the 'site info' section, which states the website was created around 4 years ago in January 2000...) I don't think it can be used as a reference. Freikorp (talk) 06:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I also don't understand the instance of the new user to keep changing articles, not just this one, to include incorrect information. 71.163.7.75 (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, it isn't good for current information it does a lovely job of explaing and showing the history of straight edge. I will look at it when I get home and have unfiltered internet. --Guerillero | My Talk 13:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Brought up again

This should be abstinence from unprotected sex with many partners (since it puts your health at risk). Also, the "prescribed drugs" thing is rubbish, no one would decline medication for a label. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BleedingHearts37 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

And the X's originate from when minors go into a club, and they were marked as minors by an X on their hand so they wouldn't be served alcohol by the bar staff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BleedingHearts37 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to reply to both of your statements individually:

1)Not really. A few sources talk about refusing unnecessary meds. While this isn't the best or most up to date source the old straight edge FAQ says:

Some kids say you shouldn't take any drugs. "Straight Edger's exclude all forms of drugs from their lives, including alcohol, cigarettes, illegal drugs and often other drugs such as aspirin. Most sXe'ers don't even "use" caffeine."

However, it would be stupid not to take medications for serious illnesses. How can you take control of your life if you're delirious or dead!

source

2)Its in the article....

According to a series of interviews by journalist Michael Azerrad, the Straight Edge "X" can be traced to the Teen Idles' brief U.S. West Coast tour in 1980. The Teen Idles were scheduled to play at San Francisco's Mabuhay Gardens, but when the band arrived, club management discovered that the entire band was under the legal drinking age and therefore would be denied entry to the club. As a compromise, management marked each of the Idles' hands with a large black "X" as a warning to the club's staff not to serve alcohol to the band. Upon returning to Washington, D.C., the band suggested this same system to local clubs as a means to allow teenagers in to see musical performances without being served alcohol.

--Guerillero | My Talk 00:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

sources regarding veganism and sXe

I was doing some research for the veganism article, and dug up some sources which help this article more than ours. See: Talk:Veganism#sXe.2Fpunk. Kellen^T 17:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Three Xs

Citation 2 ("Minor Threat Sleevage")has nothing to do with why three Xs are the symbol of straight edge. Guerillero (talk) 02:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't find anything that backs this up at all.

A variation involving a trio of X's (XXX) originated in artwork created by Minor Threat's drummer, Jeff Nelson, in which he replaced the three stars in the band's hometown Washington, DC flag with X's

--Guerillero (talk) 04:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

this was the citation: "Minor Threat Sleevage". Sleevage.com. 2007-03-19. Retrieved 2008-08-12. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) --Guerillero (talk) 22:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

is there any ties to religion for Straight Edge

is there any links to religion, mostly Christianity to Straight Edge, i'm sure Straight Edge may have been founded by a guy with an extreme view on Christianity and his faith.--Boutitbenza 69 9 (talk) 23:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I've heard Straight Edge been described several times as "Christianity without the god" (an obvious reference to the fact that our moral choices are similar). It's roots are in the hardcore punk sub-culture, which is predominately atheist. Freikorp (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

In its core, sxe is not religious. But many sxe kids developed an affinity to religions like Hare Krishna, Islam or Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.183.207 (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I can definitely say while straightedge was not necessarily founded with religious roots... many modern day Christian youth have adopted it. Especially in the metal and punk scene. Many Christian youth see it as a way of both signaling their beliefs in abstinence, not drinking alcohol, or doing drugs. They also see it as a way of keeping they're Christian beliefs while strongly separating themselves from mainstream Christianity. I myself don't identify as straightedge (for no particular reason) but as someone who goes to a lot of "christian" concerts I can say that there is a very strong straightedge presence in the Christian hardcore and punk scene. This particular seems to be true in the American South...where hardcore and punk music is still a sensitive topic in churches. Now... this would definitely need a source other than personal observation. Saksjn (talk) 05:36, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Picture

Would a new picture of an X like this add to this article. The current picture isn't exactly a notable part of the straight edge culture. (Its just random patches on a pair of pants)

--Guerillero (talk) 05:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Eh, probably not since it's just a hand with pen drawn on it. If it was a tattoo or if there was a hardcore moshpit or straight edge band in the background I would say yes. I agree the current picture is not the most appropriate picture. Freikorp (talk) 06:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok I will keep my eyes out any of those.--Guerillero (talk) 14:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Really, any picture on this site would be better than what we have now: http://www.straightedgeink.com xdevilockex (talk) 03:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

http://members.fortunecity.com/youthoftoday/Pictures/pic30.jpg

• I think this would be a really suitable picture. Straight Edge band, original genre, Straight Edge kids, and a mosh pit. Here's a link, I can't upload it because I'm not sure if it's copyrighted. I'm in the process of trying to obatin permission for use of it anyway, so check it out. Blink44182 (talk) 02:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I swear there are no good pictures of people who X up. This one is ok and this one is great but they have the wrong cc license. --Guerillero | My Talk 03:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I have a tattoo that will make a decent relevant picture once it's finished but it's still half done at the moment, will probably be a while before I get it finished unfortunately. Freikorp (talk) 05:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism?

I just noticed today while reading the article that some text doesn't follow the original beat:

"Joseph de Almeida is their leader 'eh doesn't smoke and doesn't afraid of lung cancer or anything. Also black african american."

This line can be found just under the top of the article. I have no clue how to fix it or how to see who changed it (and undo that change) so I hope no one minds me posting it here.

Kind regards,

Manuvidya

212.178.206.30 (talk) 10:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: Definitely vandalism: 10 minutes later:

"nick silec is their leader 'eh doesn't smoke and doesn't afraid of lung cancer or anything. Also black african american."

212.178.206.30 (talk) 10:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Semi-Protected

This page should be nominated to be Semi-Protected. There is always vandalism going on from anonymous users. Blink44182 (talk) 00:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to nominate it yourself, over the years it has been protected at different points for short periods of time. Unfortunately vandalism has to be heavy and continuous for them to do anything about it. Freikorp (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

What's with the WWE section?

My immediate reaction is to delete it entirely, since the WWE doesn't really contribute anything to Straight Edge, nor is the wrestler who identifies with Straight Edge noteworthy within the movement itself. If this cruft must stay, it at least needs to be rewritten and moved to a more appropriate section in the article. Currently, it ruins the otherwise chronological order of the History section.98.117.120.42 (talk) 23:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree 100%, thankfully somone else has removed it. Freikorp (talk) 01:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree WWE has nothing to do with a punk rock "movement". It looks like fancruft to me. --Guerillero | My Talk 00:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• This has to do with Chick Magnet Punk and The Straight Edge Society. Considering the popularity of the WWE, I would consider this incredibly notable in increasing the notability of this movement. We should consider that a lot of new members of this movement may be attracted to the music and genre due to this Society's actions.Nym (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

• CM Punk brought me towards it, and although I do not practice, He is the one who brought me towards this Wiki page itself,perhaps at least some homage could be paid, considering there is many SxE bands I have not heard off on here. (76.117.171.2 (talk) 05:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

Add Rise Against to names of 2000's punk rock bands

• they are well known for being straight edge vegans 20:40, 21 September 2010 User:184.78.58.45
• One of their members is not Straight Edge, therefore they are not a Straight Edge band. Freikorp (talk) 22:39, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

B Class

What would it take to raise this article to a B class? --Guerillero | My Talk 05:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Punk music has detailed criteria for B class on its article assessment page. It looks like citations are needed in the 2000s section and there should be consistency throughout the article in capitalization (i.e. Straight Edge or straight edge). Gobonobo ^{T C} 13:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I somehow missed that page. I will get to work on this. I think I found a few sociology journal articles to back up some of the statements.--Guerillero | My Talk 20:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Storage of unsource-able statments In the 2000s, Straight Edge and non-Straight Edge bands have played concerts together regularly. Both Straight Edge and non-Straight Edge people attend these concerts--Guerillero | My Talk 21:53, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't get onto this discussion earlier it's just that I don't have any experience upgrading a music and or lifestyle article to this class. After reviewing it there's nothing I can see that is either lacking or in need of a clean up; if some IP had of just changed the article to B status without explanation I wouldn't have any complaints. It looks fine to me but just to be sure maybe you should track down someone who's done this before. :) Freikorp (talk) 23:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Cool. I asked on the project talk page. If no one comes here or comments there with in a week I'll change it.--Guerillero | My Talk 06:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Its over a week and no way has said anything against this so i'll change it--Guerillero | My Talk 21:53, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Is it Straight Edge or straight edge

Here is the problem, there is no consensus on how straight edge should be written:

• The Encyclopedia of Punk uses straight edge
• a journal article I have uses straightedge
• American Hardcore uses Straight Edge
• Our Band Could be Your Life uses straight edge
• Straight edge: clean-living youth, hardcore punk, and social change uses straight edge
• Straightedge youth: complexity and contradictions of a subculture uses straightedge
• Sober Living for the Revolution uses straight edge
• The Denver Post uses Straight Edge
• exclaim uses straight edge
• Phoenix New Times uses straight edge
• straightedge.com uses straight edge

this is anoying--Guerillero | My Talk 21:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

My initial impression is that "straight edge" is the more common usage. We could adjust the intro to say something along the lines of "Straight Edge or straight edge refers to a subculture..." Gobonobo ^{T C} 01:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Within the I am going to change everything to straight edge so its uniform and we use the most common version.--Guerillero | My Talk 02:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Straight Edge or straight edge

Is there really any difference between these two forms. Do the capitals stand for something? And if so, does anyone have a reference that will explain the difference? Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk | _Sign 17:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Sources holding tank

1990s

• Maynard, Stephanie. "Spiritual punks". CHICO COMMUNITY PUBLISHING. Retrieved 22 February 2011.
• Wood (1999)
• Wood (2006)
• Davis, Erik (1995). "Hare Krishna Hard Core". Spin. 11 (5): 69–73. Retrieved 22 February 2011. plain text
• "Krishna punks, fuck off". New York Press. 2003. Retrieved 22 February 2011.

--Guerillero | My Talk 03:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Satanism section?

Why is there a satanism section in this article when it's completely empty? Nannykins (talk) 06:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

As you can see from the tag on the article, the article is currently under expansion or major restructuring. I'm sure it will be filled in before too long.. Freikorp (talk) 08:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Real life is getting in the way of getting this expansion done. If you want more info on this topic, look up Wood 1999 and Wood 2006. cheers --Guerillero | My Talk 16:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Uoflcard, 13 April 2011

Add a link for hedonism in the first sentence.

Uoflcard (talk) 13:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Not done: there's no need to link common English terms. See WP:OVERLINK for details. — Bility (talk) 16:02, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Factions

In the factions section, it says that straight edge split into three factions. However, it only lists two. Does that imply that the third faction is the disassociation with either of the factions, or is a third faction left out? Tvaiello (talk) 23:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

There were three factions (look at wood 1999) I just have yet to finish that section --Guerillero | My Talk 00:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clarifying. Tvaiello (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Personal notes

1. Rewrite the 200s section
2. Add a sub section about tats (from the two journal articles)
3. Finish the factions section

--In actu (talk) 12:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

More things at Talk:Straight edge/dumping-ground --Guerillero | My Talk 23:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Removal of xDEATHSTARx

The last sentence under the "X Symbol" is "The X symbol can be used as a way to signify a band or person is straight edge, by adding an x to the front and back, for example, the band xDEATHSTARx.[citation needed]"

According to their label Facedown Records, the group has disbanded as of March 2009 and makes no mention of any reasoning behind the name of xDEATHSTARx. It is under those conditions that I make the assertion that there will not be a reasonable way to obtain a citation for this sentence and ask for the references to xDEATHSTARx to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir E Brum (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

New sources about bands come out years or even decades after they break up. I think that it is still possible to find a source. One will be needed when we get this to a GA --Guerillero | My Talk 21:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

False protected

Page isn't marked as protected but unable to edit. --208.38.59.163 (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I will do that --Guerillero | My Talk 19:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikilink vegetarianism

Wikilink vegetarianism. 99.190.84.66 (talk) 06:21, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure --Guerillero | My Talk 04:08, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Framesickz, 6 September 2011

please change, letter 'e' at the title 'edge' must be capital

Framesickz (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

This has been debated before. All of the journal articles and academic books write the term as "straight edge" or "straightedge" --Guerillero | My Talk 22:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is the link if you want to --Guerillero | My Talk 22:54, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Ferrrar, 20 October 2011

"several studies shave shown" should be "several studies have shown"

Pardon me if I've requested this wrong; I'm not very familiar with editing Wikipedia. But that is clearly a typo, so I thought I'd report it.

Done. Freikorp (talk) 05:26, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

A quick once-over

Per Guerillero's request, I gave this article a once-over for GA suitability. This is not a GA review, obviously; I'm just sharing my opinion on what's good and what could be neatened up. I didn't really check sources, for example - I'm just going by what I'm reading in the article itself. Some things I noticed:

Lead

• Is "straight edge" properly left in lowercase? My instinct, as someone completely unfamiliar with the movement, would be to capitalize it.
• The lead could use some general flow cleanup, but I assume that's already on the to-do list before hitting GAR
• The lead says the movement originated in the 70s, but the first sentence of "History" says it was founded in the 80s
• I'd like to see some context in the lead for why straight edge would be considered a gang; it sort of comes out of left field the way it's currently written, and the reader is left going "...a gang? a vegetarian gang? huh?". Give some information about the supposed violence, perhaps?

History

• Expand! These sections feel like you've left out a lot of detail about what, exactly, each of these groups/stages embraced - it's easy, as someone familiar with the topic, to forget that people who come to this article know nothing about the history, goals, or terminology, so my preference would be for you to go a little too detailed, rather than not enough.
• "Straight edge sentiments can be found in songs by the early 1980s band Minor Threat, most explicitly within their song "Straight Edge"." Some detail here about what "sentiments" the song expressed, please, for this sentence and the next one about "Keep It Clean".
• Globalize the "Outside the United States" section! I bet it could hold a lot more, if you can get your hands on the information to fill it.
• The 2000s section leaves me wanting more about what, exactly, caused the decline in militarism. Was it that there was no band to rally around, so people just drifted away or something?
• Also in the 2000s, the "several studies" mention feels weasely. Expand this a bit. I want to know what the studies were about, perhaps who performed them, and what they mean by "mostly" and "peaceful". Without this info, what you mean could be anything from "only 40% of straight edges scalp their enemies, and so they are mostly peaceful!" to "The number of fights at straight edge events was far smaller than the number of fights at X events".

Other stuff I'd like to see

• I'd like to see a list of straight edge bands and/or well-known straight edgers. Ditto some information about how straight edge fits into the larger culture - what do other punk fans think of them? is straight edge a mainstream movement among punks? is it a mainstream movement among music fans in general? Does the idea of "straight edge" have any pop culture penetration outside music?
• A section on what behaviors constitute straight edge-ness would also be helpful. For all that it seems to be a movement characterized by eschewing certain things, you only give that a quick mention and then move on to discussing bands.

Right, so those are my main impressions. Essentially, I think you have a good skeleton but it could stand to be given a bit more flesh before it's really, er...fully fleshed out. (Fleshed, fleshed, fleshed...ow, my analogy!) The flow of the prose can also use some improvement, but I'm pretty sure Guerillero is going to fix that anyway. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Rise Against

Seems like Rise Against should be mentioned somewhere, as other than their drummer all members are straightedge, and they are quite well known currently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.7.232 (talk) 12:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Why? They aren't a straight edge band. 92.27.172.252 (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

They do not identify as a straight edge band, all of their members are not edge, and the literature does not refer to them as straight edge --Guerillero | My Talk 16:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes they are straight edge. they've stated it a lot in interviews. Only the drummers is not straight edge. In a live chat with the lead singer people were asking if they're straight edge and if they are is it easy, and he said yes he is and it's extremely easy. Look up the chat, it happened months ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.216.253.136 (talk) 18:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Violence

The article needs further discussion of violence in straight edge culture. The article seems to dances around the subject quite delicately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.29.178 (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The highest quality sources (peer reviewed journal articles and books by experts in the field) have an interesting take on the straight edge individuals are violent meme. After ethographic research, they contend that the vast majority of straight edge kids are nonviolent. I recommend Robert T. Wood's or Ross Haenfler's books on the subject. --Guerillero | My Talk 22:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this adequately addresses my concern. The vast majority of anarchists, for example, are non-violent. Yet the Anarchism page rightfully overviews violent anarchists and regicides. A group doesn't have to be large to be influential and relevant. The "Straight Edge" article implies that violent Straight Edgers have been highly visible and influential, if only by denying that this visibility is warranted. I believe that Wikipedia readers would be well served by learning more about this subset. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.76.35 (talk) 20:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

DIY71.163.7.65 (talk) 00:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

Straight Edge
Stylistic origins	Hardcore punk Crossover thrash Washington, D.C. hardcore
Cultural origins	Early-1980s Washington D.C
Typical instruments	Vocals - Electric guitar - Bass - Drums
Derivative forms	Youth crew - Positive hardcore
Other topics
Hardcore dancing - DIY punk ethic - Positive mental attitude

I removed the infobox because I feel that this article was written from more of a social science prospective looking at straight edge as a subculture and less as an artistic genere. What do others think? --Guerillero | My Talk 13:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Some of you forgot something...

Prominent lyrics by Minor Threat themselves that were a major basis of the initial straight edge movement, (from the track Out of Step)-

"Listen,
this is no set of rules
I'm not telling you what to do
all i'm saying, is that i'm bringing up like three things
that are like so important to the whole world,
that i don't have to find, much importance in
because of these things, whether it's fucking or playing golf,
i feel that...

I can't keep up!"

"all i'm saying, is that i'm bringing up like three things"

"BRINGING UP LIKE THREE THINGS"

Earlier in the song Ian declares;
"(I) don't smoke
I don't drink
I don't fuck
At least I can fucking think"

Not smoking, not drinking, (presumabley drugs in general) and not having promiscuous sex were his own personal preferences.

Somehow I think things took a turn for the worse when some parade of dipshits started incorporating fascist(and/or)christianity.

So, I'm definitely altering this part from the beginning paragraph-
"While the common thread in all straight edge identity has always been the abstinence of alcohol, nicotine, and illegal drugs"
to:
"While the commonly expressed aspects in the majority of the straight edge subculture have been abstinence of alcohol, nicotine, and illegal drugs"

I'm fairly dissappointed in whomever decided to condone that bit of the article. Very misinformative when declaring those kind of thoughtless absolutes.

How is it a thoughtless absolute when it's backed up by the research that has been sited? It looks clear to me that it's the one part that is absolute and agreed throughout, unlike veganism, promiscuity, etc. How would you define the universally held beliefs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.75.163 (talk) 04:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

So what is Straight edge?

Is it a punk movement? A military movement? A religion?

I previously knew OF this straight edge thingy. I thought of it as just another American puritan movement. But since I never encountered it, other than the music, I never gave it much thought. Now decades later I read this and know not much more than what I did when I knew nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 11:56, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

It is a movement within the Hardcore Punk scene. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it is not affiliated with any one religion or military. Many straight edge people share common morals on certain things, but there is no formal political agenda either. On its own it is simply a choice to refrain from consuming certain things, just like vegetarianism. Freikorp (talk) 01:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Where it went?

It seems today that straightedge is a term commonly used by emos and ravers ('scene kids'), who have little understanding of the origin of straightedge but brandish the orientation and/or the X to indicate their abstinence in otherwise drug-centered subcultures. Rave, for example, stresses the ideas of peace while still being quite enthusiastic about amphetamines, so it would be logical for some to go X. With Emo, Punk and Rave being more closely associated these days (with scene subculture and emo/rave cross bands like Blood On The Dance Floor) by the mainstream music industry, is this the fourth wave of X? --24.118.61.24 (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Talk pages are for discussing how to improve the article. "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." Freikorp (talk) 00:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

List of People That Follow a Straight Edge Lifestyle

Due to a mistake of capitalization, see Talk:Straight Edge. I think List of People That Follow a Straight Edge Lifestyle should be merged back to this article rather than exist standalone. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion is now closed BlackDragon 00:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was to Keep the two pages separate. The list has greatly expanded and no comment has been made here since the moment it was made--

BlackDragon 00:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

---

Hi, I would like to discuss...

"List of People that follow a Straight Edge" stub article should have been created in the original Straight Edge article so that consensus could have been reached about creating a separate list. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Its a "stub" because I just created it and I have a life and dont want to add like a hundred people at once. They are many people that follow this lifestyle and could produce a big list, if people helped of course, but the article literally just started and should stay separate and not merge. This would make the Straight Edge page a list and not an article and would make it pretty long, which is unnecessary. This page should have a list section and then have a link to the list page I just made. Besides there are tons of list articles and they have to start out somewhere. So the page should stay how it is and everyone should help make it longer, I mean I barely scraped the list, just kinda added the more well known ones like Punk and Hetfield. BlackDragon 00:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

And if refs are a worry I can easily find them and add them in no prob. BlackDragon 00:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've moved the closed discussion back here for archival purposes as I am redirecting Talk:Straight Edge to this page so that this capital issue does not happen a third time. Freikorp (talk)

Vegan Straight edge

Per WP:UNDUE a whole top level section on vegan straight edge is unnecessary. The section needs to be forked back into the 90s section with less puffery. While some bands of the era were hardline or krishna, it wasn't a majority. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually this whole article needs to be written from the ground up. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:10, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I found a considerable number of sources on this, and it seems to be a movement that has continued past the 1990s, so it doesn't really make sense to shove it all into that section. I don't know what you mean by "puffery" - I thought I gave it a fairly even-handed treatment. Can you explain that? --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:12, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not volunteering to rewrite the article - I came here because there were some sources relevant to veganism that mentioned this subculture, and I became interested in it. I don't see a reason to try to force it into a false chronological narrative, though. It seems like the sXe culture has multiple strands that make that kind of narrative a bit awkward. By the way, I'm not familiar with punk music, and I'm just writing what I've gleaned from reading a dozen or so academic sources. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:14, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Both Wood 2003 and Tsitos 2016 confirm that hardline and krishnacore pretty much died by the mid 2000s. Looking over the sources you provided as well as the ones I have, I don't see a broad narrative that vegan straight edge existed as a thing separate from those two strains of straight edge. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:38, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I think every source I've read draws a distinction between hardline and other vegan straightedge participants, and I've rarely seen Hare Krishna mentioned. See Haenfler 2004, for example, where Krishna is not mentioned at all, and hardline only once, despite extensive discussion of veganism. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Also Pieslak, writing in 2015, speaks of "xVx" in the present tense and makes clear that it's an ongoing movement in which hardline is a subculture. On p. 188 he quotes someone as decrying the lack of ideology in vegan straight edge music post-2000, and he identifies hardline as a right-wing group within xVx at the bottom of that page (and repeatedly elsewhere). --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:51, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-anecdotally, here are some primary sources showing that veganism is alive within the straight edge subculture and is still espoused by some bands as of the 2010s:[4][5][6]. Interestingly the third one notes "the vegan, straight-edge lifestyle that the members adhere to (but don't browbeat or proselytise for)" and the second: "we were all vegan and all straight edge. We thought it would be funny to describe ourselves as a "vegan straight edge" band, because those are terms usually reserved for heavier bands, but it was just as true of us. It's a tongue-in-cheek label, but it's true." We may have a difference in perspective, in that you may be interested in "vegan straight edge" music, which, from what I read, seems to have changed significantly in the last decade, but I am interested in the vegan straight edge subculture, which is still there. --Sammy1339 (talk) 22:13, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

NPOV Relevance

Should I really end up here when the much more common reference to a the tool that this movement borrows its name. Shouldn't it be straight_edge_(movement) referred from the disambiguation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.2.5.101 (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

You're looking for straightedges, the tools, which are not two-word phrases. Omnibus (talk) 18:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Pictures

We did a round of pruning of pictures back in 2010-2011, that lead to the current pictures. I removed the picture in the 2000s section because it extends down two other sections and makes the article look unbalanced. (It also is watermarked and the sourcing dosen't really back up why the lead singer of Have Heart's face needs to be in the article) --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:55, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I looked through the archive and can't seem to find a distinct discussion on pictures other than the image in the lead. Removing the photo means there is no photo to represent the 2000s hardcore, which while not necessarily needed, the fact that one of the straight edge bands from that era performed the highest attendance hardcore show in history gives it a lot of weight to be included. Issan Sumisu (talk) 19:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)