Talk:Rapping

Merge, poll

Hello there. I see no reasons why articles named Rapping and Hip Hop music should not be merged.

Rapping article fails to describe rapping as a vocal techniqe separate from rap music genre. 90% of Rapping article actually desctibe the history of American hip hop.

On the other hand, Hip Hop music article in its current form describes Rap music as well. Why should be have two articles on the same subject? That's my first reason for merging them.

If you believe that both articles may be improved to not mix up things like it happens right now, please read further...

I would probably agree that rapping as a vocal style is used in genres other than rap music. I would name Western African folk music, rap metal, big beat, dancehall, grime music... That's probaly all, but that's enough. However!

1. Rap metal, big beat and grime music are all fusion genres of rap music with rock and dance music. They are all offsprings of US rap music, no more!

2. When talking about West African folk music or dancehall, "rapping" in these genres are almost never refered as such. Instead, terms like "chanting" and "deejaying" are used. Additionaly, they differ a lot from rapping as using in US hip hop.

Actually, pure rapping is only used in rap music and its many sub-genres.

So, I strongly doubt that there's a need for a separate article on rapping as a vocal style. That's my second reason for merging Rapping and Hip Hop music.

If you disagree, please:

1. Re-write Rapping article first so it would describle subject as a vocal style used in different genres (and not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link).

2. Re-write Hip hop music article so it would not not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link.

I don't think it's possible. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've forgot to mention Drum & Bass MC's, but I don't think this changes a lot.

I agree -- this is a problem of rewriting not merging. "Rap music" redirects to "hip hop music" and "rap" redirects to "rapping." The best strategy is to use disambiguation tags, like those at the top of rapping. --Junius49 (talk) 22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've also proposed an alternative merge between hip hop, which is mostly about music, and hip hop music. --Junius49 (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Support

1. Support as nominator. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
2. Support: Rapping is only syphoning content and effort away from Hip hop musicCosprings (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Opposed --Junius49 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

could you elaborate on that please Beeblbrox (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

1. I'm not sure I entirely understand what is being proposed, but I'm pretty sure I oppose it. The act of rapping has plenty of info available to write a complete article, as does the field of hip hop music. Rap music is a vague and confusing term, and should probably be a disambiguation page pointing to both those articles. Tuf-Kat (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
2. I am very much opposed to merging. From the lead of Hip hop: "Hip hop (also spelled hip-hop or hiphop) is both a cultural movement and a genre of music developed in New York City in the 1970s primarily by African Americans and Latinos.[1]." KRS One put it even better: "Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live." I agree that more rewriting is needed, but the music is just one part of hip hop culture, albeit the part most well known to the general public. Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. The DJ, the producer, and sometimes other musicians all contribute as well. It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. Singing is of course the central element of opera, but there's a lot more going on on the stage and in the orchestra pit. Beeblbrox (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap music is a vague and confusing term - I'm pretty sure that its quite opposite: the term hip hop music is vague and confusing. See Talk:Hip hop music for details. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live - This means that rap is a music genre and hip hop is a culture. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. - The presence of rapping is what makes a song classifiable as a rap music, even when other instruments are present(but not always as a not hip hop). Coldplay and Queen are classified as Piano rock in spite of the fact that piano is not реу only instrument they use. The term rap music is more universally accepted, just check dictionaries. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, it's been my experience that people who actually use "rap" as noun meant to be synonymous with "hip hop", instead of as a verb for one particular thing that a hip hop musician does within the larger context of hip hop as a whole, are almost invariably rock snobs who are using the word with an unspoken — and sometimes dancing on the edge of outright racist — sneer: "Oh, I like all kinds of music except (*snort*) rap." It's not used that way by anybody else. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. - No, it's the same as saying the opera vocals and opera are the same thing. This is not 100% accurate, but opera vocals are almost never used outside opera genre, so there's no point to have separtate articles on both. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

1. If this article isn't primarily about rapping as a vocal technique, then it should be rewritten that way. Rapping is part of hip hop, obviously, but it's just one part, not the whole thing: it's the vocals. Hip hop has other aspects — instrumentation, production, DJing, visual presentation, etc. — in addition to rapping. And, in fact, a song that's sung, rather than rapped, can still be hip hop if it draws on those other aspects, so there does exist hip hop that isn't "rap". This article should be specifically about the vocal aspect of hip hop, just as singing is a separate article from music. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
2. As Tuf-Kat pointed out, the act of rapping has enough information and potential to warrant an article. Rapping is only one part of what makes a hip hop song. On a related note, hip hop culture should be merged into hip hop as it's useless to have two pages on the same thing. Spellcast (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Agree with above arguments. 'Rap' is to 'hiphop' what 'sing' is to 'folk music' (or any other genre in fact, including hiphop). It is possible to rap outside of hiphop music, and it is possible to have hiphop without rap. The two should not be merged, but perhaps the 'rap' article should be rewritten, again, as suggested above. Edtheduck (talk) 18:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

1. I agree with Edtheduck. I also think that the articles, should not be merged, but there should be a section in the article called "Rapping" with one of those things that says "Main article: "Rapping".

Tezkag72 (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

1. "Hip means to know//It's a form of intelligence//To be hip is to be up-date and relevant//Hop is a form of movement//You can't just observe a hop//You got to hop up and do it//Hip and Hop is more than music//Hip is the knowledge//Hop is the movement//Hip and Hop is intelligent movement//Or relevant movement//We selling the music//So write this down on your black books and journals//Hip Hop culture is eternal// Where you at? Come on where you at? This is the difference between MC’ing and rap: Rappers spit rhymes that are mostly illegal, MC’s spit rhymes to uplift they people; Peace, love, unity, and Havin’ fun, these are the lyrics of KRS One." --Brainmachine (talk) 23:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

word Beeblbrox (talk) 00:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I definitely feel that this article deserves to exist independent of a HipHop article for several reasons. First of all, they are inarguably two different things, just as breakdnacing and hiphop are different, or graffiti and hiphop are different. Yes they are related but hiphop is a culture and rapping is an art form and social practice that is part of hiphop culture. Secondly, this is a good article that sticks closely to the subject and does not - as some seem to think - wander off into unrelated territory. If the hiphop article repeats a lot of this info it is because the hiphop article is not accurate or insightful. Why not just encourage a more comprehensive and useful article on hiphop rather than merging them? thanks.... —Preceding Loboslobos (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)unsigned comment added by Loboslobos (talk • contribs) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A small opposement. Lethal Bizzle needs to be considered as a notable uk artist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.51.239 (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

subject matter

It says that rap mainly comes from large east and west coast metropolitans when the most famous form of rap is from the South--Primetimeking 03:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are probably just too young to know the actual history of hip-hop. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap is not hip/hop there is a major difference. Hip Hop can but does not have to contain rap. Rap is just vocals whereas hip hop can be any combination of beats, bass, computer generated sounds and vocals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.132.252 (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

the south at this moment doesnt have many great artists anyway, just popular ones. there's a difference. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

Please include the BAD side of rap

this artical does not include anything about the bad side of rap the bad side includes

1. talking in ununderstandable slang
2. swearing
3. violence
4. noise pollution (blasting out of phones (ect.)

I've also noticed that the pages on ROCK and THRASH METAL are not protected does any 1 know why, because we all know which genre was here first, don't we!!??—Preceding unsigned comment added by Albinoblackrabbit (talk • contribs) 15:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add this information as long as you can cite sources. Unreferenced opinions will be removed.

Page protection in article space is usually assigned for individual articles on an as-needed basis. This article was protected for because it was frequently targeted for vandalism from anonymous accounts. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, the ignorance is funny. Not to mention the spelling errors in your post. No wonder it's locked, too many people stereotyping the genre based on what they hear on the radio. But anyway, as far as i know there's good and bad in each genre, as well as swearing. Violence only occurs in Gansta rap. Rap in general, is not about "guns, hoes, cars, money" etc. and well, idiots cause noise pollution, and you dont seem any different by failing at putting rap down. 74.12.217.80 (talk) 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Talking in ununderstandable slang is the worst part about rap and deserves its own encyclopedia article. Because we don't have any information on it right now I propose we use the (now public domain) Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition's article as a foundation. Furthermore, THRASH METAL sucks ass.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Your personal opinions are not appropriate topics for encyclopedic articles. Please familiarize yourself with the five pillars. Also "ununderstandable" is not a real word. Beeblbrox (talk) 07:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, violence is something that is omnipresent in society today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.1.148 (talk) 00:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Violence occurs in nearly any sort of rap. Gangsta rap makes sad mention of specific names and sets while hardcore rap makes its living off ultraviolence. Even carefree emceeing makes frequent mention of violence, as does battle rhyming. Old mafiosi rap had staples of cocaine distribution and cop-murder. Even Jehst, who is to me one of the most creative artists working today in music, has a measure of violent lyrics. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance makes me laugh as well. If you have factual proof, fine, but dont put in your personal bias stemmed from your lack of knowledge of the genre. Look up Conscious rap if you can manage listening to real thought-provoking music. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

Either way the point is moot as this is an article about rapping, not rap music. Gangster movies also use violence, as do horror flicks. Rap is a form of expression, and a story telling medium, not unlike a movie. What you think the stories are generally about is irrelevant. KDilla (talk) 11:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

White Rappers

No mention of 3rd Bass in the white rapper section? They predate most of the white rappers (including Vanilla Ice) listed other then the Beastie Boys —Preceding unsigned comment added by General-E-C-Mo (talk • contribs) 06:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if race should be used as a faction of music. There are many, many white rappers working in all manner of rap, from the grime scene to the UK's artistic scene to the trailer trash american south. There are also many rappers of every other race, which is why it makes little sense to bring race into the article at all, though since it's locked, this sentiment's perhaps out of place. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Race has nothing to do with hip hop, any one regardless of their age, past, childhood, race, etc can rap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Message_(album)

In the 1980's section of this article, it would seem strange to mention Blondie and leave out Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five, whose singles: "The Message" (1982) and "WhiteLines(Don't Do It)" made a huge impact on rap, dance mucic and popular culture in general. Hallowscorp (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

So add it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Canada

"Canadian Hip Hop combines Canadian English with a Caribbean vibe due to the strong Jamaican and Haitian heritage of most Canadian rappers"

What? Please explain to me why this should be the definition of Canadian rap? Two things:

a) Canadian English? What does that mean? Do we say "eh?" at the end of every verse? b) You can say that some, like Kardinal and whoever else you think defines Canadian rap, have a Caribbean vibe if you wish but that's like saying "American rap" all sounds the same because what you see on TV may be very similar. I think someone would hear Buck 65 or Shad and assume they weren't Canadian or wonder where the Caribbean vibe is. KDilla (talk) 11:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is a mess. It's written mostly by hit & run contributors who add some shit then disappear. I removed large portions of bogus text last month. I just fix whatever problems I spot, although I haven't bothered to really scrutinize the article since I first checked on it last month. A is putting the smack down (talk) 12:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:NiggasBleed.ogg

The image Image:NiggasBleed.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• Image:SmallTalkat125thandLennox.ogg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali

I wonder why nobody refers to Muhammad Ali, who I know as the inofficial initializer of Rap/ HipHop. Just enjoy his comments on the Rumble in the Jungle (1974):

„I've done something new for this fight.
I've wrestled with an alligator, I've tussled with a whale,
I did handcuff lightning, and threw thunder in jail. 
I'm bad. 
Last week I've murdered a rock, injured a stone and hospitalized a brick. 
I'm so mean I make medicine sick. 
Last night I cut the light off in my bedroom, hit the switch and was in bed 
before room was dark. I'm so fast man I can run through a hurricane and don't get wet. 
When George Foreman meets me he'll pay his debt. 
I can drown and drink the water and kill a dead tree, 
wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali.“

--Ginness (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Religion

1 - "...politicians, journalists, and religious leaders have accused rappers of fostering a culture of violence and hedonism among hip hop listeners through their lyrics. However, there are also rappers whose messages may not be in conflict with these views, for example Christian hip hop..."

This is misleading. Christian hip hop has always been a tiny proportion of hip hop, and it would be far more accurate to say that 'conscious' rap has messages that are not in conflict with politicians, journalists, and religious leaders. This is more representative of reality, as Christian hip hop is a very small sub-genre.

2 - "Christian rap is currently the most commercially successful form of religious rap."

Islam is more widespread and influential in commercially successful rap music than Christianity is. This is less true now than ever before, but still leaders like Minister Farakhan are mentioned with praise, whereas Christian leaders are usually criticised.

---

However overall I would say that the whole 'subject matter' section could and should be removed from the 'Rapping' page, as it isn't relevant to the technical skill of rapping, and is instead relevant to the culture of hip hop. If the piece is left in I would suggest it is changed for the sake of truth and accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.69.190 (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree that the section could be removed as more appropriate to the hip hop article than to this one. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Flyting, the Scottish origins of rap

Read it and flame:

• Johnson, Simon (2008-12-28). "Rap music originated in medieval Scottish pubs, claims American professor". telegraph.co.uk. Telegraph Media Group. Retrieved 2008-12-30. "Professor Ferenc Szasz argued that so-called rap battles, where two or more performers trade elaborate insults, derive from the ancient Caledonian art of "flyting". According to the theory, Scottish slave owners took the tradition with them to the United States, where it was adopted and developed by slaves, emerging many years later as rap.

The article Hip hop music (to which "Rap music" is a redirect) makes no mention of this either. I have added this citation to Flyting and the Battles section of Freestyle rap, but leave the incorporation of this theory into any actual article to more knowledgeable editors. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The influence of verbal jousting is actually mentioned in several of the hip-hop articles, including flyting and forms that pre-date Scottish flyting. It should be noted that various forms of "flyting" exist and have existed in most cultures, including African cultures that existed long before slavery. Professor Ferenc Szasz (and the several blog articles mentioning him) appear to offer a theory that is a logical fallacy: Ancient Scots did flyting, modern Rap battling is similar to flyting, since some Scottish slaveowners had contact with the foreparents of some of the people who do modern rap, rap battling music must have originated from Scottish flyting. -RoBoTam^ice 15:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for evaluating this. If Szasz's hypothesis (let's call it) got some traction in credible publications (blog mentions not counting), we'd probably need to include it in the article anyway, but it does seem a bit WP:FRINGE-y at this point. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What about the influence rap has had on pop music?

Pop artists such as Fergie, Gwen Stefani, and even Avril Lavigne have attempted rapping or "chanting" in their music. It may not be considered rap, but it should be mentioned that these artists have been influenced by rap music,trying to immitate the rapper and have began attempting bubblegum rap in their own songs in the 2000s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.127.193.43 (talk) 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Rappers harmonizing

I thik Chamillionaire should be mentioned as a rapper who can harmonize as he is well known enough for that.Xx1994xx (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC).

Rap lyrics

There were rap lyrics on the page meant to illustrate different styles, that were recently removed with no explanation. I think they should be restored. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to restore them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you could pic any lyrics at random and them would exhibit some type of rhyme. Plus there is no way to source their accuracy. Plus, as I said, they are totally unprofessional and reek of a bad term paper. Use audio samples instead. Cosprings (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there some rule against quoting song lyrics because there's no way to source their accuracy? And if there was a way to source their accuracy, would that make a difference to you? And I don't know what's un-encyclopedic about quoting lyrics - I'm sure the Encylopedia Brittanica has many quotes from, say, Greek poetry. Korny O'Near (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it would make no difference to me. In an article on Homer, verses from the Odyssey and Iliad would be appropriate; but not in an article on epic poetry. It is an analogous case here. Moreover, the nature of rapping (it being quite popular, and popular among younger persons) means that including lyrics here will only invite anons to add a ridiculous number more. I don't think it benefits the article enough to warrant including them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone, young or otherwise, trying to add more lyrics - for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that attracts drive-by editors. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

You just made a point against yourself.Cosprings (talk) 15:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

And the other point? Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't have an Encyclopedia Britannica around, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that it would have analogous things. And I think the lyrics add an important illustration of the article's statements, just like images, audio samples, etc. do. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Images and audio samples are what this article needs, not an agragate of rap lyrics. Do you know how many verses there are? Any of them could be listed here to illustrate points about rap lyrics, which are still valid without the quotes. Put the verses in wikiquote under rapping if you want.Cosprings (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

More input is desired in this discussion, however I do not see anyone thus far that agrees with you that they should stay in.Cosprings (talk) 00:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that all your points against including lyrics could equally well be used against including images and audio samples. Is there any definitive statement that lyrics/poem quotes/book quotes shouldn't be used in this way, either in Wikipedia or in any other encyclopedia? Korny O'Near (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

No, these arguments were explicitly made against lyrics and for images and audio samples. These are different things. Everyone above has agreed that audio samples would be much better to exhibit points about lyrics. I'm taking them out, per this discussion. The article was finally getting improved after I took them out.Cosprings (talk) 13:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that these arguments were made about images and audio samples, I said that they could be made. I'm not at all against including images and audio; I just don't see why lyrics should be treated any differently. And I don't see how "everyone above" agrees that audio samples are better, given that I disagree, and I'm above. Korny O'Near (talk) 02:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

History of jazz

Jazz didn't emerge in the 20th century, it has existed since the start of the 18th century. It gained nationwide popularity in the 20th century, but it began in New Orleans shortly after 1700. 155.72.100.4 (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Monster Mash

There should be mention of "Monster Mash" (1962?) as far as history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tablizer (talk • contribs) 07:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Rap "Music"???

To identify Rap "music" as Music is like calling an automobile without an engine, a transmission and no wheels, a car (short for carriage as in "horseless carriage"); without all three, it's just a shell, like Rap music. Four of the most important elements of real "Music" are pitch, melody, harmony and dynamics. These four elements are as distant to Rap as the moons of Jupiter or the rings of Saturn. Rap is so monotone, so always at the same volume, that calling it "music" is ludicrous; the music in Rap is simply accompaniment. Look it up in Websters- def.#2- in Music: a part of a composition to serve as background and support for more important parts as in important instruments that create melody, harmony and chords. Rap doesn't have "more important parts"; just drums, bass and some incidentals for texture.

Today's adults have the same objection to Rap as our parents did to early Rock 'n' Roll. Our parents were used to listening to the Big Bands (Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, the Dorseys etc.)- bands that had 10, 12, 14 instruments- when Rock 'n' Roll was in its infancy (mid 50's and on), it was so bare, so thin, so few instruments (often just guitar, bass, drums and background singers), that our parents said "where's the rest?", "where are the saxes, or the trumpets?", my Dad said "it's like a skeleton". The Big Bands and Jazz was geared to adults; the music and the bands of the Fifties, (Elvis, Fats, the four-part harmony bands etc., and especially, Buddy Holly) and the Sixties (the Beach Boys, then the Beatles, Stones etc.,), transformed popular music, and it became the music of teenagers and twenty-somethings, and it still is. The music of the late Sixties and Seventies, specifically Jethro Tull, Yes, King Crimson and even Queen and other "art" music bands, became thick again- with elaborate arrangements (like Miller did), and vituostic musicians. Rap is skinny and boney, like a skeleton- like Robin Williams used to say "pee-pee, ca-ca, no substance". Dcrasno (talk) 04:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No Dylan? and late 1900's and early 20th Century

See Bob Dylan- "Subterranean Homesick Blues" and then look up sprechstimme (talk-singing) in Wiki. Dcrasno (talk) 05:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)