Talk:Eulogios Kourilas Lauriotis

Why don't we say that it was the Church itself that rejected both Kourilas and Kotokos?

That was no communist decision. This guy was first condemned by the Sinod, along with Kotokos. They were the agents of the Northern Epirus front that Alexikoua apologetically brings in Wikipedia. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 14:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to support your views with 'rs' material.Alexikoua (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Evllogji Kurilla has been completely ignored by Albanian serious historians. I had never read anything about him until Alexikoua brought him here. I guess you found him in Ruches' book? However since Balkanian's Word changed his name, I corrected to Kurilla. He was in fact Albanian, and as a result, his Albanian name should be used. Hope no hard feelings from Alexikoua, the creater of the article. Please also bring discussions at the Albanian-Greek board --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 13:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Suppose this is another 'i dont like to discuss' move. Quite mysteriously the source that provoked the move names him 'Eulogios Kourilas' [[1]].

• By the way: Evllogji Kurilla [[2]] 3 hits in googlebooks. (no wonder none of them in english)

On the other hand:

• Eulogios Kourilas [[3]] 103 hits.
• Evlogios Kourilas [[4]] 32 hits.
• Eulogios Kurilas [[5]] 42 hits.

In fact the bibliography is overwhelming (by a ratio of 1:50) and the English bilbiography uses only the Eulogios Kourilas form. What's most important he signed his book only as Eulogios Kourilas. Just placing one source and making the move is at least disturbing.Alexikoua (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

All these books are written in Greek while this is the English wikipedia meaning that only English language books should be taken into consideration when deciding an article's title(per WP:TITLE).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope you have to check again. Actually Evlogios Kourilas [[6]] not a sinlge book is in Greek. Moreover and most important, the books written in Greek are written by 'Eulogios Kourilas' himself. No wonder he signed only with this name...

Also according to this: Wikipedia:NC#Common_names. Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. Since not a single english book mentions 'Evllogji Kurilla' the case seems clear. Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 14:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I assume that you're not using this as evidence because the majority of these writers that use the Greek translation are Greek authors(Apostolos Euangelou Vakalopoulos, Athena magazine, Hetaireia Makedonikōn Spoudōn, Hidryma Meletōn Cheresonēsou tou Haimou, Basil Kondis, Eleftheria Manda, Basileios Panagiōtou Papadakēs etc.) and it's normal that a Greek author would use the Greek translation as a another author would use his language's translation if it existed.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

According to this: [[7]] I see your argument is still too weak. Additionally, he signed his books as Eulogios Kourilas [[8]], it's not about translation. Moreover I see you agree that the: 'Evllogji Kurilla' is non-existence in googlebook.Alexikoua (talk) 14:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Even the first book of that link is written by a Konstantinos Staïkos while the majority of the rest are written by already mentioned Greek authors. There are no arguments favouring second move.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:34, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent move

The list is here [[9]]. There are lots of non-Greeks, if you mean that Greek source=POV source. But if we believe this extreme point (that the majority are Greeks), still according to Wikipedia:NC#Common_names. 'Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. ' (It doesn't exclude specific nationalities of authors or publishers).

And this book, written by a non Greek states it clear about his ethnicity:

• The Encyclopedia of Christianity, Geoffrey William Bromiley. Erwin Fahlbusch, Geoffrey William Bromiley. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1999.ISBN 9780802824134 [[10]] on p. 35. (Greek born in Albania) and this
• Security Sage's guide to hardening the network infrastructure. Steven Andrés, Brian Kenyon. Syngress, 2004. ISBN 9781931836012 [[11]].

Actually it's really sad to make such initiatives without any discussion. Kourilas had the Albanian nationality when he was bishop (for 4 years) in Korce, but that doesn't make him ethnic Albanian. Moreover, about the book that provoked this move by Balkanian: [[12]], we need the entire paragraph to make any conclusion.Alexikoua (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

If I had to make a judgement and rely on a source that would be the Harvard book and not the tertiary source you brought. For the record Harvard doesn't refer specifically to nationality, so I don't know why you're assuming that. Nonetheless if it refered to just his nationality it would be stated clearly. I'm looking forward for an explanation of this rationale.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, since no one wants to bring this to the board, here are my thoughts. Kurilla was born in an Albanian village. I dare anyone to tell me that Zicisht had Greeks. Zicisht was an Albanian village and chances that a Greek was born in Zicisht are slim to none. Now Harvard Divinity School says twice clearly that he was Albanian [13], whereas Fahlbusch says otherwise. I tend to believe Harvard Divinity School, because it says it twice and has two full pages on this guy, whereas Fahlbusch is based on Greek sources and mentions him nonchalantly along with Kotoko in two words. The book was published after the church of Albania had been dead for 30 years before the publication of the book (and in my opinion it still is, since it is the only Autocephalous national church, governed by a non-national).--_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 15:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

You say that Harvard has 2 pages about him? What they write about him? Guessing only with a snippet isn't for sure enough.Alexikoua (talk) 21:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide the entire context? It seems you are sure about what you support, off course being a bishop in Albania you need to have Albanian citizenship. Anastasios Janoulatos is Albanian too according to this snippet, using the same argument.Alexikoua (talk) 15:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way, it would be nice to have Balkanians' word opinion, since he was the one that made the move.Alexikoua (talk) 15:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

According to which snippet is Janoulatos an Albanian? Could you please show? --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 15:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed that even the official orthodox church of Albania names him 'Eulogios' [[14]] (english version). I really don't see a real argument why the move was performed.Alexikoua (talk) 16:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a text copied from a book by

• George A. Christopoulos, THE SPLENDOUR OF ORTHODOXY. 2000 Years – History • Monuments • Art , Vol. II - Patriarchates and Autocephalous Churches - , Ekdotike Athenon, Athens, 2000.

I think that links showing that Greek writers use the Greek translation aren't helpful, that is obvious.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the one to judge the official site of the Orthodox Church of Albania. The context of the 50s book of Harvard is still needed in order to make a conclusion, since the existing material points to the other form.Alexikoua (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua asking for context of the Harvard book is wp:idontlikeit and wp:or because you're assuming facts based on your empirical assumptions which clearly don't apply. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

People, whenever ([15]) I see you guys abusing Google books, I always want to scream, puke, bang my head against a wall, or burn my computer. What the hell has a "guide to hardening the network infrastructure" to do in a discussion of ethnicities in Epirus? What the hell do you mean by saying that "Harvard Divinity School says" this or that? Are you clueless enough not to understand that it is authors that say things, not publishers or academic institutions? So, what book is that, who wrote it, and what is its context? Throwing around mere Google book snippets without being able to vouch for their context is, in my view, an instance of disruptive editing, and I will start reporting such moves as blockable misbehaviour if people don't start cleaning up their act soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

You're right and because of that I found these [16][17].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

1 snippet without context vs 175 gbooks hits

Just giving a snippet isn't enough against:

• an overwhelming bilbiography of more than 175 googlebooks hits.[[18]][[19]][[20]]
• Evllogji Kurilla has '0' googlebooks hits in english bibliography [[21]]
• Kourilas was an author himself and always signed his books as Kourilas [[22]].

The context is needed since the book mentions him as 'Eulogios Kourilas', which makes him hardly ethnic Albanian (you claim doesn't meet wp:verify), propably reffering to the period of 1937-1941, the only period in his life he was an Albanian citizen, before he was expelled to Greece.

By the way I see no author in this url, who has written this part? Is it a journal or not? Just playing with gbooks snippets isn't enough. It's propably a journal but who knows... Off course asking for the context is irrelevant with idontlikeit & or stuff which implies to someone that uses orgument and rejects a bibliography of more than 140 book and preffers a snippet.Alexikoua (talk) 19:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua you have posted many times already books written in the Greek language using a particular translation, but you should understand that this is the English wikipedia and there is a policy called WP:CLERGY which you should follow.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Once again I am quite sorry for the inconvenience, per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy), it should have been Bishop Eulogio of Korçë as per sources. ALso I changed from Greek Orthodox Church an ill-defined notion to Church of Constantinople. I guess, it is ok now. Sorry, once again for my move without discussing prior, I just had no time. Quite sorry. Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Eulogio?

Why was the most recent move to "Bishop Euologio of Korçë", rather than "Eulogios"? Was that a mere typo, or is the form without "-s" also used? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes both forms are used although in modern times many books use anglicized versions of names like the case of Gregory IV of Athens, where the form Gregory instead of Grigor is used.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't recognise "Eulogio" as a conventional anglicised form analogous to "Gregory". On Google books it appears to be exceedingly rare. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I found [23][24] , it uses the form Eulogio(and it isn't a snippet).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually the question was about the anglicised form analogous to "Gregory". Having found sporadic books that represent a small fraction of the bibliography proves nothing. @Zjarri: Please don't to be sarcastic about the snippet quest.Alexikoua (talk) 12:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua the new data is compelling and I think that you continuing this discussion based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't helpful.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)