Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles

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B-Class Task Force Proposal

Would anyone here be interested in creating a "B-class task force" for this Wikiproject? It would help to accomplish the following.

1. Go through Category:B-Class articles and find possible GA-class articles and nominate them.
2. Go through Category:B-Class articles and assist the associated Wikiprojects with improving articles that are near to but not yet at GA-class.
3. Get more experts involved in the GA review process to ensure criteria 3 of WP:WIAGA.
4. Ensure that quality articles are nominated for GA.

While points 1 and 2 would find GA-class articles which may have been missed by the Wikiproject I feel that points 3 and 4 for this taskforce would help make the WP:GAN process faster. This is because quality articles are easier to review, having "Wikiprojects" involved helps reviewers who may not be familiar with the topic being reviewed, and this would likely help to reduce the number of holds/second opinion requests on the GAN page. Any other thoughts on how this idea may work/be improved? Tarret ^talk 17:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Concerns about Vere Bird, Jr. review

(note: I am moving this section to WT:GAN, where discussion of issues such as this normally takes place. Please continue there. Looie496 (talk) 23:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC))

Language and literature and Media and journalism

Hi. I really faced a dilemna with the Bernard Levin article as whether or not to list it under Language and literature or Media and journalism. The thing is he was very much a critic and writer, which is under Language and literature but is chiefly a journalist. I'd imagine this is not the first time an overlap has occurred. Maybe this category ought to be merged to include writers , journalists and critics in one and journalists and critics in particular often go hand in hand?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe that it is acceptable to list under more than one category. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

What makes you believe that? Malleus Fatuorum 13:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I was sure that I have seen that somewhere, but I am sorry - can't find the discussion. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

GA at DYK redux

Hi all, see Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Good_articles_redux. I've opened debate on a possible trial of 1-2 hooks of recently-listed GAs in each set of DYK hooks (3-4/day). Discuss there. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Add copyvios to the GA criteria?

There's a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Good article criteria#WP:COPYVIO_not_mentioned_in_WIAGA to mention copyright violations (for text, not just for images) in the GACR. Please comment there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. It's required of DYK entries, so the bar has been raised there. It should not be lower for GAN or GAR. Binksternet (talk) 00:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

So, If I were to present you with three random articles would you be prepared to guarantee that none of them contain copyright violations? Malleus Fatuorum 00:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The same reasoning applies to all criteria: for example, is the content reliably sourced? As I have remarked on the GA criteria talk page, GA reviews are not guarantees: they are more like warranties or vehicle safety tests. Geometry guy 21:48, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Quite. Which is why I have objected to the proposed addition to the GA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 22:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You may not have fully digested my comment there. The GA criteria are standards, not guarantees. They should state firmly what the standards are (all GAs should be reliably sourced) and not undermine these standards with phrases like "according to reasonable efforts by good faith reviewers". Geometry guy 22:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not your comment I'm responding, but the proposed addition to the GA criteria. The proposal was, if you recall, "I urge the addition of 2(d): It contains no copyright violations". Anyway, do as you will, it's no longer any concern of mine. Malleus Fatuorum 22:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I prefer "It contains no copyright violations" to "It contains no apparent copyright violations", just as I prefer "It is reliably sourced" to "It seems to be reliably sourced". No one does as they will here, so it is vital that editors understand each other in the search for consensus. Geometry guy 22:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps there's a distinction here that needs to be teased out, which has been lost in the recent noise. No article should contain copyright violations, whatever level it's at, just as it should be on a subject that meets Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. But the recent rock-throwing at those (including myself) who failed to catch copyright/plagiarism issues at GAN has probably not helped to do anything other than entrench attitudes and demotivate reviewers. The issue is perhaps not so much "why didn't you spot this?", rather how do we best deal with the situation when it's been discovered. The MOT analogy is probably a good one. Nobody in their right mind would hope to succeed in a claim against a garage the day after their car was tested because the front suspension collapsed, for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 23:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have no patience for any rock throwing, and do not participate in it or condone it. The GA criteria are standards for articles, not expectations for reviewers. Reviewing GAs is difficult. Inexperienced reviewers need to be nurtured, and experienced ones encouraged to spread best practice. The guidelines should be based on such experience, and should reflect that experience with maximum clarity. Geometry guy 23:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

GA nomination Battle record of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington

Hi can someone else look at the GA nomination for Battle record of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington. I left a note on article talk that being a list it was not eligible by the GA criteria. This resulted in abuse on my talk and as I have commented at Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance that I am more than happy never to review or have any other interaction with MarcusBritish in the future. Could another reviewer decide it its eligible.Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Delighted to. Pyrotec (talk) 19:36, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about and has been attempting to stifle the article since I submitted it for ACR - I do not know his motives, but he clearly wants to throw a spanner in the works. The article in question has a large lead section and prose based content, before the list in question. Therefore it is not a purely list-based article - there is a lot of background text that can be considered for GA. His "abuse" claim is nothing more than spin, and a further attempt to stifle my work here.. again his motives are unclear, but are clearly callous. Please consider this article for GA review on its own merits, and ignore Jim who is flashing his badge in this case. Ma®©usBritish ^[talk] 19:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you really think your personal attacks against Jim Sweeney help your cause? I will review it against the requirements of WP:WIAGA Full stop. Pyrotec (talk) 19:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh come off it - his whole campaign to oppose this article for ACR and GA has been a personal attack on me and my work from Day One - I'm not going to stand back and take it - he's NEVER had a good comment to say to me, or on his reviews. His whole attitude has been nothing but contemptible. Anyone who can't see that has got to be blind. Ma®©usBritish ^[talk] 19:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not that interested. I will review it, but it you continue these attacks you could be banned. What is more important your work here or slagging off other editors - I don't need an answer, just think about it? Forget it and move on. P.S. I've even started the review yet. I could be blind and I could be doing this on a word to voice machine: you have no way of knowing whether I am or am not. Pyrotec (talk) 20:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Obviously my work is more important - so I ask you, how would YOU feel if you knew your work was being attacked by other editors utilising wiki policies in their favour, and currying admin support in order to hold back your work and prevent it being promoted to ACR/GA? That is what is happening to me, whether you see it clearly or not I am being victimised by a narcissistic editor. I am NOT attacking other editors, I am defending myself against sly attacks from malevolent editor behaviour who are in turn further twisting and spinning my retorts. Also, I did not follow your "blind.. voice machine" comment - what was the meaning behind that? Thanks, Ma®©usBritish ^[talk] 20:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Jim and Pyrotec aren't admins. They are plain old editors (just like you) who happen to know a fair bit about the Good articles process. Admins have no special rights in the GA process anyway.
• Nobody can actually "prevent it being promoted to ACR/GA". The GA reviewer's only choice is about whether it gets listed as a GA today. If the first reviewer personally doesn't believe that it meets the criteria, then there's nothing stopping a second, third, or 37th reviewer from having a different opinion in the future.
• You said that only "blind" people would be unable to see Jim's "contemptible" attitude. The English Wikipedia has a number of editors who are blind, and their perceptions of rudeness does not seem to be impaired. I recommend that you avoid such comments in the future.

In general, you might want to think about the cooperative, human nature of a GA review. People who are friendly often find that they have more success in winning friends and influencing people—including any GA reviewers who might be on the fence about an issue in a nominated article. It's much easier for reviewers to fail articles whose noms seem to be mouthy and defensive. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, but I don't want my work to be reviewed based on "how friendly I am", ever. Articles are supposed to be reviewed according to unbiased criteria - content, context, validity, etc.. at no point does the criteria include "character". Such behaviour can only lead to favouritism, and articles being promoted out of hand. And then people start to wonder why so many people say wiki is inaccurate, unreliable, etc - when editors start influencing promotion by manipulating reviewers rather than putting in any genuine effort, it's a bad system. I don't intend to suck-up to reviewers on the fence - they should either have a valid reason to support/oppose their decision - if wiki insists that we only comment on "content not contributor", then the review process should be exactly the same.

As for my "blind" remark - you took that far too literally. It means anyone reading the comments, would have to be blind to miss the motives. I don't support political correctness, in fact I oppose it strongly - it has destroyed society more than it aids it. Anyone taking my comment the wrong way, needs to think again about the meaning not the wording before jumping to conclusions.

As this is my first GA I don't expect other editors to question the nomination behind my back, nor to oppose my nomination without commenting to me first. That is wiki-lawyering - I have a talk page for people to raise concerns to me directly, not to go sculking about, which is totally against wikis ideology. Wiki is not a place for prigs and red-tape, but for open discussion and consensus. Correct me if I'm wrong.. but wiki does claim to be a democratic site, does it not?

Ma®©usBritish ^[talk] 21:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Whatamidoing believes that the most important part of the GA process is that we should all be nice and try to make everyone else happy. Malleus Fatuorum 21:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Alright, uninvolved admin here. As far as I can tell, Marcus nominated an article for GA, and Jim left a comment on the talk page that he didn't think it was eligible. He didn't fail the article. He didn't even start a GAN review. He just made a comment. Marcus told him to "mind his own biz" and called him a prig in the edit comment. Jim responded by asking him to apologize (a bit sanctimoniously, to be honest), and Marcus responded by flipping out, i.e. "arrogant, self-centred, obnoxious, Maccams who STALK my contribs, make malicious objections, and abuse their rights" etc. for another paragraph. Jim complained at etiquette central and here, and Marcus has continued to rant. Am I missing anything?

Because if not, Jim- in the future, "I will allow you to apologise for this edit summery [...] if not I will have to report it as unacceptable" comes off as condescending. Marcus was rude, true, but that's a bit passive-aggressive. Marcus- you need to chill the fuck out. Jim made a comment. You didn't need to be rude back, but whatever. But there was no need to flip out on his talk page, or start yelling about how everyone is conspiring against your article. Step back, calm down, come back later. The article will get reviewed regardless of whether Jim's a jerk, or you're a jerk, or I'm a jerk. --PresN 21:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)