User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Do you speak Russian ?

Do you speak Russian, Jimbo ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Сергей Мамаджанов (talk • contribs) 06:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I do not. I speak only English with any fluency. I have studied German off and on for years, so that with some effort I can make myself understood to a taxi driver in a German-speaking place (though they almost all speak English better than I speak German!) and I can read quite slowly, having to consult a dictionary often. I have also studied Spanish briefly, though not enough to have any serious impact on my ignorance. I studied Japanese at the University level for one year, and for a while many years ago I think my conversational Japanese was about the same as my conversational German is today, i.e. quite bad. But I know nothing of Russian, I'm afraid. It's my desire to continue with my hobby of language studies, but as you might imagine, I don't seem to be especially good at it, nor do I tend to devote enough time to it.

There's an old saying that most people who say they want to write a book actually don't want to write a book, they want to have written a book. I think that probably applies to me and languages. I want to know how to speak several languages, but I don't particularly seem to enjoy the process of learning them.  :-) Still, I will keep slowly plugging away. As I intend to continue working on Wikipedia for the rest of my life, I hope that when I am 85 years old, I'll be here on this talk page giving a much more satisfactory answer. We shall see. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., at 92, was found by FDR reading Plato in Greek. FDR asked why he was doing so - and Holmes replied "Why, to improve my mind." [1] [2] etc. I trust that you , at 85, will indeed seek to keep improving your mind. (OWH was alays called "Wendell" by his family per my mom knowing them living down the street) Collect (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

We should talk to each other in German sometime Jimbo? I happen to be 100% German being fluent in both English and German.—cyberpower (Happy 2012) 13:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

In some respects, Englsih is the more ancient language as it retains the "th" sound lost in modern German <g> (Jakob Grimm IIRC). Collect (talk) 13:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hallo Jimmy Wales. Es freut mich das sie auch Deutsch sprechen koennen.—cyberpower (Happy 2012) 14:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Danke sehr, aber mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht. Ich verstehe nur ein bisschen.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Macht nichts. I habe ihnen einen e-Mail geschickt, es waere nett wenn sie es lesen koennen und mir einen Antwort gibst. Da habe ich nehmlich einen Idee wie man Wikipedia verbessern kann. Hier habe ich es nicht gepostet weil ich dachte ich werde Anschiss bekommen von andere Wikipedia Editierer.

Dear Mr.Wales

Hey um Mr.Wales I have been (according to some users) infragmenting copyright violation when I have not. I do not know what to do because I usaully paraphrase alot of the work (keeping scentences here and there though). Do you have any suggestions to what I should do. I would aprecciate that man. Algamicagrat (talk) 00:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello! I recommend that you stop doing that! That's not the right way to write a Wikipedia article. Paraphrasing is not sufficient and keeping sentences here and there is not right.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello Algamicagrat, a belated welcome to Wikipedia!

Your edit to Paraptenodytes looks a lot like a blog from here. I'm not saying that's intentional on your behalf - far from it - but because they are so similar that's why it will have been flagged up as a copyright violation - something Wikipedia takes very seriously. I don't know if it's maybe something to do with the script you're using (I noticed you used a script called ProveIt for both the edits you were warned about) as I know nothing of that script. Although you say that you keep sentences here and there, if you keep them in large chunks, that will be enough to set off a copyright violation somewhere in Wikipedia. The odd word or so being the same or even the odd sentence might be ok but definitely not whole chunks. I'm sure I must have a template somewhere explaining about copyright, I'll try and dig it out for you.--5 albert square (talk) 01:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

English Wikipedia?

Howdy Jimbo. The old diacritics spats were bad enough, now we've got editors wanting to move Portuguese monarchs articles from John to João. Heck help us, if a push begins to move Japanese monarch titles from English to Japanese. GoodDay (talk) 01:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, how many fora are you going to canvass in? I hope you can tell the difference between moving John to João and moving Emperor Ninkō to 仁孝天王. FWIW, I take diacritics on a case-by-case basis, and with this I think João is correct, because the vast majority of history books I've read use his name, not his anglicized name. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Who's forum-shopping? This is a casual chat with a fellow editor (JW). GoodDay (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I was a little quick to judgment; nonetheless, this is far from the first place you've objected to this particular move. I'm not entirely sure what you want to accomplish here, but I suppose you have something in mind. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it's pretty much canvassing. How about starting an RfC instead GoodDay. Prodego ^talk 06:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I weren't asking for JW's input 'there'. Infact, JW's is free to 'delete' this entire thread without comment. GoodDay (talk) 13:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

• Undo renames from João x back to John x of Portugal: As an involved editor, I see an ongoing discussion to restore the article name back to the WP:COMMONNAME form as "John V of Portugal" from a recent non-consensus rename/move-over-redirect (on 7 January 2012) to the rare English form "João V of Portugal" (plus "João VI"). Search of Google Books confirms widespread (80%+) English use as "John V of Portugal" dating back over 250 years, to at least 1759. See: "Talk:João V of Portugal#Requested move". This might be part of a growing trend to remove common English titles from enwiki, but I have not checked the data to assess the trend. As I recall, the United Nations seems to keep English names or titles in effect, but I wonder how much the UN had to fight linguistic battles such as this. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

  I'm finally going to admit this; your post reminds me of reading the Daily Punctilio reporter in The Hostile Hospital. If you haven't read it, read the whole Series of Unfortunate Events (The Hostile Hospital is Book 9, but you need the context; they're quite entertaining, so it's entirely worth it) and see if you can figure it out. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hostile Hospital echoes ANI: Well, the plot section in "The Hostile Hospital" sounds like a typical WP:ANI thread, with the part: "The party heads to the operating theater, where Klaus and Sunny stall the cranioectomy by describing the past of the knife. Hal appears at that moment and accuses them of setting fire to the Library of Records (WP:3RR?), while Esme turns up with the real Dr. Tocuna (WP:SOCK?) and Nurse Flo and exposes them (WP:OUTING?)." And then they get WP:OUT of the hospital complex or else WP:BLOCK!! -Wikid77 10:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I should have clarified last night; I didn't mean to compare accuracy, only the headline style notes at the beginning. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The entire "use English" trend has gone far too far and it's heartening to see at least a crack in the wall, even if it's not the best choice of subjects. Portuguese kings may be commonly referred to by their English names, but there are several cases where things are commonly referred to by some other name and Wikipedia's usage is to use the official English name anyway. My usual examples are anime, manga, and video games from Japan, but I just tried "tanuki" which is a word, not an anime. 8.2 million Google results for "tanuki -wikipedia -wiki", 975000 results for "raccoon dog". Guess which one we use as the article name. Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

João VI of Portugal (this is the name used by English speaking historians to call him) was the son of Maria I of Portugal (not Mary I), father of Pedro I of Brazil (not Peter I) and Miguel I of Portugal (not Michael I). He was also grandfather of Maria II of Portugal and Pedro II of Brazil. I wonder what readers would think if they see a "John VI" at the middle of all those Portuguese names. The idea here is not to change the entire Wikipedia, but a single page (which has been done). The problem is that GoodDay is an user who doesn't actually contribute writing articles (such as I do: I have nine FAs behind my back) but only on taking part on discussions over what he believes to be the end of the Anglo culture. Not the kind of editor who is truly useful to Wikipedia. --Lecen (talk) 12:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

• It is Mary of Portugal, not Mary I: It is not "Mary I of Portugal" nor "Jesus I, Son of God" but rather "Mary of Portugal" as 2-400x times more common than "Maria I of Portugal" (see Google Books: Ngram for Maria I/II & "Mary of Portugal"). Fortunately, the clever User:GoodDay has been quickly trying to resist these rename attempts (to rare or non-English titles), for more than 1 year now. In this effort, he is one of the most-useful editors on Wikipedia, to retain WP's world-class approach to naming article titles, continuing the traditions from more than 200 years of scholarship. While the much rarer title, "Maria I of Portugal" had been used in English texts somewhat more during the 1940s, the term "Mary of Portugal" has retained most-common status, as it has held for more than 250 years. For a user reading any related book published during the 1800s, they would expect to see "Mary of Portugal" with "Maria I of Portugal" for linking a WP article. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I clicked on the link you gave and the only person who appears is a 15th century Portuguese princess, not Queen Maria. Could you at least pretend that you're not trying to fool us? --Lecen (talk) 16:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi jimbo

Hi,i no speak good english,but arrive here for that:need you help,wikipedia in espanish no function good,say in spanish ok: Administrators work, not good,follow yours insterests.i be now Blocking policy in spanish,can´t edit pages ,for that lie my location,never,never make Vandalism never make,but help me ,i love edit pages and help and now can´t order you that help me,plis thank you Carliitaeliza (talk) 03:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Wikiproject Dedicated to a Cooperative Relationship with Paid Editors

Hi Jimbo. You've shown an interest in paid editors in the past, so I thought you might be interested in the proposed Wikiproject Cooperation. This project encourages editors to work collaboratively with people paid to edit Wikipedia and "improve the quality of paid editor contributions." Ebikeguy (talk) 03:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope this initiative begins with the premise that paid advocates should never edit articles directly, and instruct them about better options, as well as building up infrastructure in the community to ensure that those options are maximally productive. We need to be very firm on this point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Sadly, the initiative does not begin with the premise you suggest. It clearly encourages paid writers to edit directly, provided they do so within Wikipedia rules. Perhaps editors who share your (and my) opinion on this matter can try to nudge the project away from encouraging paid, direct editing. Ebikeguy (talk) 14:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Activism at Wikipedia?

Is there too much activism in some areas at Wikipedia? In the article The Wonderful World of Wikipedia article at Watts Up With That?, there seems to be pointing out some strange twisting of the reality to suit some political goals. Is the project under siege from some coordinated activists? Just look at the Climategate article that stil has a name that no one else uses and has been actively been buried down by deleting it from navigation templates under possible suspicious reasons (Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_March_3#Template:Global_warming_controversy). What can be done to change what looks like unhappy circumstances? Nsaa (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Not much there. The author points out a sentence in an article in December, which no longer reads that way. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The problems there (including the gist of the disputed claim) and in other articles remain - as any neutral observer may verify, and this is true in a large number of areas on Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Sadly, the active editor pool and wiki policies are not strong enough to create and defend neutral articles in disputed areas. All experienced wiki editors know that. Climate change, all nationalistic articles, all political biographies, religious articles, fringe theories and medicine and biographies of anyone involved in such, sexuality articles, and a few others topic fields that I have not listed, all of these battlefield type articles should come with an edit template disclaimer that says, Wikipedia apologizes for any inaccuracies and biases contained within this article and as there is a strong likelihood of opinionated editing in this sector Wikipedia does not recommend that readers use the article for neutral research. - The recent focus on demeaning the handful of people that create articles for a small charge is dwarfed by the bias of unpaid partisan editors in these sectors and the weakness of current wikipedia polices and the difficulty experienced by NPOV contributors in attempting to implement them. Youreallycan (talk) 12:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

<ec> How entertaining, a fringe blog seems to be trying to recruit meatpuppets to change articles to support their own version of reality. The blog article refers to a version of Soon and Baliunas controversy at the start of December 2011, and complains that we didn't just accept their November blog commentary about a hacked email. It fails to notice that we looked at the various sources and issues, and after discussion 2meters made this revision on 22 December to meet the concerns. That's the current version, hope improvements can be made.
The blog wrongly claims that the disputed text is only sourced to this article by Fred Pearce, and says that he has told them privately he was "almost certainly wrong". Odd that he repeated a revised version of the statement in this article which was open to comment and revision (there were no objections to the statement) and then rewrote it more strongly in his book, which we now cite. Among the extensive discussion on this issue, on 10 December an editor said they'd written to Pearce asking for clarification, this was welcomed with the provision that Pearce will have to publish any retraction in a reliable source such as his own blog: we can't use verbal comments reported in an extremely dubious third party blog which includes in its article BLP violating assertions about a reputable scientist.
Perhaps Nsaa would like to use the article talk page to propose improvements based on reliable sources? . . dave souza, talk 12:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should create a firewall and split the project. with a calm tranquil editing environment with stable undisputed articles and sectors, and all the battlefield articles on the other side of the firewall, with that sector clearly marked as the accuracy and neutrality of the articles included in this sector is disputed. - Youreallycan (talk) 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be proposing a pov fork where alternate realities based on fringe blogs are given equal weight? Doesn't Conservapedia already meet that need? Or perhaps you're proposing that Wikipedia should only deal with undisputed issues. That'll make a very small 'pedia. . . dave souza, talk 12:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a pov fork, a firewall. Many contributors will benefit from the new tranquil editing environment that would be created. Wikipedia can and should deal with all topics, but all experienced editors know of the biases in these sectors. Some users support it because they support the biases. Are you a contributor to any of these battlefield sectors Dave, do you have strong real world opinions about any such topics? Youreallycan (talk) 12:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Youreallycan. don't know what you mean by a firewall. My edits have covered a number of topics over the years, and my strong view is that WP:V and WP:WEIGHT are essential. You seem to have contributed to some battlefield areas since you began editing on 26 November 2011, sorry you feel the way you do, but in the longer run our policies don't seem to require the firewall you're suggesting. . dave souza, talk 12:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC) (though as formerly User:Off2riorob you've had plenty of experience, didn't notice that link at first) . . dave souza, talk 13:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

A firewall - a separator - two rooms in the same house, one room with stable articles not attracting battlefield disputes. That room in the house would have "stable status" - awarded on request to articles and if given the article is moved to that room. So creating a room in the house without rudeness or edit warring. Users if they wanted could log in only to that room. The other sector, the disputed, the biased, the opinionated articles would all sit in the other room. The objective would be to get the article out of that room to the stable non battlefield room. The only way to do this in some sectors would be to create a truly balanced article that had fair coverage of all positions so as all partisans could be satisfied with it, rather than what some sectors do now which is have to constantly defend the bias in an article through constant blocking of objectors, article protection and tag team edit warring and sometimes just pure weight of numbers. Youreallycan (talk) 13:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I remain of the opinion that certain areas remain magnets for advocacy, and that such articles are intrinsically unamenabe to NPOV due to such magnetism. The WP articles mentioned did, and do, fall into this category as any neutral observer may verify. WP:Advocacy articles speculates on how Wikipedia may eventually have to deal with them. Collect (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Collect, your essay promotes a false equivalence between showing mainstream science and advocacy of fringe views. Policies already deal with these issues, your idea of "neutral" doesn't seem to comply with WP:NPOV. . . dave souza, talk 13:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I fear you did not comprehend the nature of the essay. It most certainly does not promote "fringe views." As for NPOV, it states as one of the possible cources for Wikipedia that pairs of articles (one for each side) might co-exist, thus furnishing the project with NPOV overall while admitting that individual articles representing both sides of an issue might individually (as one of the possible courses for Wikipedia to take) present individual advocacy POVs, which is where Wikipedia is now without making that decision! Cheers - and please note that what you "know" about the essay is quite sincerely wrong. Collect (talk) 14:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

See WP:POVFORK. . . dave souza, talk 14:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

See the essay which states specifically:

The articles which are the subject here are those for which placement of a temporary NPOV tag is substantially insufficient to alert users of Wikipedia that there are major issues concerning the content of an article.

IOW, the essay explicitly sets forth the category of articles covered, and then lists some of the possibile ways for Wikipedia to deal with the problem. No case for an accusation that I back "fringe views" or the like whatsoever. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a little difficult not to read the essay in that way, Collect. Under Proposed or possible courses of action, you list four options. The first choice is the status quo, which you implicitly dismiss as unsatisfactory (else, why write the essay at all?). The second and third choices are to add essentially-permanent warning signs to articles with advocacy or neutrality issues and then wash our hands of the matter—we might as well give up, because writing these articles from a NPOV is just too hard, and our time is better spent elsewhere. The fourth choice you offer is to allow the creation of explicit POV forks. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It is an essay. Feel free to add additional possible courses - I thought the four choices pretty much covered the field, but clearly you have other possible courses of action on what appear to be quite intractable areas - so please add the other possible courses. As for treating the status quo as "unsatisfactory" - I think that has been pretty well established, don't you? Collect (talk) 15:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It is your essay. If you didn't want to suggest those courses of action, you didn't have to. Your statement of the problem and the emphasis of the proposed solutions focuses on reducing the load on Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes—which I think rather misses the point. The status quo is better than any of the options which you offered, from the standpoint of producing an encyclopedia. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope - it is in projectspace, and has others who have edited it. Feel free to add other possible courses. Collect (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that for two years (and until half an hour ago, with the addition of Off2riorob/Youreallycan's poorly-explained 'firewall' proposal) virtually all of the essay content and all of the solutions suggested were written by you. It is 'your' essay in the sense that you wrote pretty much the entire thing. Should I take your demurral here to mean that you don't actually endorse the statement of the problem or any of the proposed solutions that you drafted? If not, which parts of what you wrote don't you agree with? Which solutions do you think are a good idea? If you're not interested in advocating for the essay that you wrote, I'm not sure why anyone else should be. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

And again - I never asserted any "ownership" of it at all -- and virtually all essays actually do start off by being "written" by one person, but the fact is that several editors were involved in the initial concept and discussions leading to the essay, just as was true on other essays like WP:PIECE etc. And since the essay does not say one solution is ideal, I fail to see how you can view it as anything but what it is - noting a real and generally acknowledged problem on Wikipedia, and mentioning several possible courses of action. "It is what it is" seems a popular term now - and applies here. Collect (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

John VI is Spanish Juan VI not João VI

Just when I was beginning to tolerate the claims that every word here is actually just the 26-letter English alphabet with a few extra diacritical marks (or a few dozen) added for "cultural accuracy", I checked to see how Spanish-language or French books accept these new words: they don't. At least in the case of "John VI of Portugal" being claimed to be more accurate as "João VI", the Spanish-based texts, searched by Google Books, have far more "Juan VI de Portugal" than any "João VI" appearing in Spanish-language books, during every year from 1900-2008 (see: Google ngram). Whenever any people claim that English editors are biased to reject outside words as "foreign" then ask those same people to find the words accepted in Spanish texts, or German, or Italian, or French texts (compare French title: ngram with João VI versus "Jean VI de Portugal", as 2-13x times more common). No one else except Portuguese speakers think that "João VI" is the name in their language either. In German, it is "de:Johann VI. (Portugal)" or in Danish, it is "da:Johan 6. af Portugal" or in Italian "it:Giovanni VI del Portogallo" or in Polish "pl:Jan VI (król Portugalii)" or Finnish "fi:Juhana VI (Portugali)" or even in Swedish, "sv:Johan VI av Portugal". None of them are convinced that Portuguese is their language with some extra diacritical marks. We do not need a WP:RfC to settle this matter. Just look at how the rest of the world handles words that are not in their language. -Wikid77 Wikid77 (talk) 12:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

All very interesting! But I'm not 100% sure what your point is, so I do have one question. In terms of what characters to use, it seems that you are, in fact, arguing that English should be written in 26 letters plus a few extra diacritical marks. But you started out seemingly skeptical of that? I think the fault is entirely mine and I am misunderstanding your position.

My own position is that English Wikipedia is written in English, and that means that we should have a strong bias against using letters from other languages, letters that don't exist in English. There are a handful of diacritical marks in use in English, and there are special cases here and there, and that's fine.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"~" exists in English. A videogame like Civilization IV has the Portuguese monarch called "Joao II", not "John II". On Victoria II, if you play as Brazil, you'll see "Pedro II", not "Peter II". On Civilization IV: Colonization one of the Founding Fathers is Pedro I of Brazil, not "Peter I". If even on popular culture the name used is Portuguese, why Wikipedia can't in the case of João VI of Portugal? It's so hard to speak "Joao"? --Lecen (talk) 16:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

What part of English in English Wikipedia, is so difficult to grasp? For goodness sake, let this Wikpedia use english. Let Portuguese Wikipedia use portuguese, French Wikipedia use french, Swedish Wikipedia use swedish etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Last time I read those articles they were written in English, not Chinese. Could you at least pretend that you have no foreign culture prejudice? Please? This "Oh my God, they are writing all articles in another foreign language" is not helpful. Try to write Featured Articles like I did. Now that's helpful. --Lecen (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There's that word again "foreign". This isn't a Canadian -vs- Protugese argument, so why keep painting it as such. GoodDay (talk) 16:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

All I've been harping on (and continue to harp on), is that this is the English Wikipedia (meaning English language). I have the name of this Wikipedia, on my side. GoodDay (talk) 16:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't study human psychology. Perhaps if I spoke/read languages (besides english), I too would be pushing the 'non-english' usage here & 'english usage' on the other Wikipedias. It's not a cultural thing with me, as english is used across many countries & cultures. GoodDay (talk) 16:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"I dread the day, these non-english groups start wanting entire article content changed..."[3] or ""...When will we 'english only' speakers, get our language Wikipedia back?"[4] These were your words. You could also say: "Get the hell out of my country, foreigners!" It will be just wonderful for Wikipedia's reputation once it's learned that there are editors with a clear xenophobic speech. --Lecen (talk) 16:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)