Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

Merger of Falkland Island Units

It is proposed that the article WP:FALKLANDSUNITS be merged into WP:MOSNUM.

Reasons

The reasons for this are:

• It is eminently reasonable that any editor should expect to find guidance and/or rules pertaining to style in the article WP:MOS or in articles that are clearly descended from that article. The descendent that deals with units of measure is WP:MOSNUM. This article has special rules for the United Kingdom and the United States.
• Whereas it is probable that most readers who consult articles that are specific to the United Kingdom are British and that most readers who consult articles that are specific to the United States are American, this is not the case for the Falkland Islands – the article Falkland Islands receiving on average over 1000 hits a day – an enormous number for a locality with a resident population of under 3000. This suggests that either every Falkland Islander reads the Wikipedia article weekly (unlikely) or that the readership is the international community at large.
• The special rules that apply to the United Kingdom and the United States only apply is certain cases – in particular scientific articles are expected to follow the rules found in the literature rather than the special rules applying to those countries.
• There is no clear paths from WP:MOS to the article WP:FALKLANDSUNITS so editors writing articles that are pertinent to the Falkland Islands but who are not members of WP:Falklands cannot reasonably be expected to be aware of this article. This is particularly true for projects such as geology, orthinology, botany, philately, numismatics, fisheries, economics, military history and the like.
• The structure of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is such that it purports to cover all articles that deal with the Falkland Islands, not a subset as is the case with the United Kingdom and the United States.
• The article WP:FALKLANDSUNITS does not introduce a single concept that is specific to those islands (such as the Vergée in Jersey and Guernsey), moreover it is almost a cut-and-paste of the United Kingdom section of WP:MOSNUM.
• The wording of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is prescriptive in respect of non-SI units while the wording of WP:MOSNUM is permissive.

Overriding Question

This raises the question, “Does a small archipelago which is home to fewer than 0.001% of the world’s English-speaking population warrant its own rules regarding units of measure?” I cannot see any good reason. The solution as I see it is to merge the existing artilce into the article WP:MOSNUM. The only question is how the merger should be done?

Proposal

My proposal is that this be accomplished by:

• Placing a redirect flag in the article WP:FALKLANDSUNITS pointing to WP:MOSNUM
• In WP:MOSNUM replacing the text

“UK articles more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts …”

with the text

“Articles that are strongly associated with the United Kingdom, Crown Dependencies and British Overseas Territories more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts …”

Martinvl (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Responses

IMO, having WP:MOSNUM spend two kilobytes of words about said archipelago would be even weirder, by far. ― A._di_M.^{3rd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 23:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I note with interest that you did not choose to inform WP:FALKLAND of this discussion. I will do this for you.

Let's start at the beginning. The point of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is as an attempt to resolve the long-running units dispute on Falklands articles. It is a standing proposal, not part of the MOS.

It's a standing proposal rather than a project-agreed guideline because we can't get consensus on Falklands units. The last position to reach consensus was for imperial units as per the former instruction here. While there was consensus to change the rule here, there has been no consensus there.

Why has there been no consensus? Because Martin and another user who everyone is familiar - Michael - refuse to allow us to base our usage on local usage. Apparently, local usage does not sufficiently conform with the pro-metric POV, so they reject it. The main point of contention is the use of miles for distances that are not strictly along roads. Apparently the notion that the British and Falkland Islanders might use miles for all distances, rather than just those along roads is so extremely offensive to them that any notion that it might possibly be used is entirely unacceptable. Never mind that when the same users brought up the same point here it was sent packing pretty quickly. We aren't allowed to have consensus on units on Falklands articles because Michael and Martin have decided that the British and Falkland Islanders switch units of distance essentially at random.

So why pick out WP:FALKLAND? Dozens of projects have their own style guides that are not immediately available from here. WP:EU/MOS, for example. Why is everyone else allowed to adopt their own style guidelines, but the Falklands aren't? I sense this is less for the reasons given and more about politicking around the Falklands units dispute. WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is a reasonable proposal. Delete it and you undermine the proposal. Then it might be easier for you to try and use the letter of the MOS to overcome its spirit: to force metrication on us in spite of local usage and in spite of the lack of consensus for them. Pfainuk talk 20:05, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I should like to add that I object very strongly to Martinvl's canvassing. His choice of locations to canvass is in violation of WP:CANVASS rules against votestacking, in that he notified users individually who support his position in the Falklands units dispute, but not users who oppose his position. Pfainuk talk 20:10, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Reject Proposal I'm tired of this utterly lame dispute. We have two editors who have zero interest in the project work on the Falklands, who hijacked our attempt to improve the articles on our watchlists with their crusade to metricate Wikipedia. They will accept nothing less that full metrication and contrive various ruses to do so. Every 3 - 4 weeks we have yet another proposal to metricate in complete contempt of other users opinions. This needa an RFC on user conduct not more time wasting. Justin talk 20:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

May I ask what is so special about those islands to justify all this discussion? Which is the specific context in them to explain why shouldn't be treated like any other similar place? The reasons provided seem like an answer to "Why not?", but not to "Why?" MBelgrano (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The answer is nothing, its a dialogue of the deaf, with people of a fixed view seeking to impose that on others. I'm more than tired and irritated with the same push every 3-4 weeks. This needs escalating into dispute resolution and examination of tendentious user conduct. Justin talk 08:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. No point in adding to the MOS 2 KB worth of text which will only ever be relevant to a few dozen articles or so. (And this page has no "special rules for the United Kingdom and the United States", but rather examples of the way the general rule– “[f]or topics strongly associated with a given place, put the most appropriate units first”– applies to those countries.) ― A._di_M.^{3rd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 23:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. Almost irrelevant side-issue which does not really call for a merger, but a simple redirect to WP:ENGVAR, with a possible mention that the Falklands are a British territory and as such adheres to British usages. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 01:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I don't believe that there is any need for Falkland Islands weights and measures to be treated any differently from other UK-based articles. Martinvl's proposal is designed to deal with that issue in a way that is consistent with usage in the UK. I reckon that if 2 KB worth of text helps to resolve a long-running dispute, then it's worth it. Alternatively, some adjustment to the proposal on Falkland Islands Units to bring them into line with both the letter and the spirit of the UK rules might be another way to help resolve the dispute. At the moment we have several Falklands articles that do not conform with modern British usage, or MOSNUM policy on UK articles, or even the proposed policy on Falklands articles. Some movement here could help. Michael Glass (talk) 01:58, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Right, they don't conform particularly closely with WP:MOSNUM. Because we haven't yet achieved consensus on what to change units on Falklands articles to.

It's been acknowledged that WP:FALKLANDSUNITS does not do much more than regurgitate WP:UNITS. It's been accepted that the proposal need not apply in cases where there are good reasons not to. But I'm not going to accept your demand that we use it to introduce metrication by the back door. Or indeed your source-based system that does not generally reflect local usage. Pfainuk talk 06:33, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

When Falkland articles don't conform to modern British usage it is because you and Justin changed them to Imperial first. One recent example was your change to the Economy of the Falkland Islands on 5 June 2010 [1]. One way of making progress might be to revise these articles in line with your proposed policy.

You say that your proposal does not do much more than regurgitate WP:UNITS. If that what it does, then why do we need it? However, that is not what it does. As Martinvl said, "The wording of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is prescriptive in respect of non-SI units while the wording of WP:MOSNUM is permissive. That is a very big difference when one of the chief complaints about it is that it is too prescriptive and a straitjacket for editors. Your proposal, above, that exceptions must have good reasons" is not reassuring, when the people deciding those good reasons are wedded to the older units.

I think we need another way forward, and that might be to approach the changes step by step, concentrating on what we agree on rather than fighting over the things that we disagree about. That is why I have proposed that we agree to change the weather units in the Falkland Islands article. That simple change would help to demonstrate that you have made your proposal about the units in good faith, and not as a ruse to stall change indefinitely. Michael Glass (talk) 10:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Michael, your "source based convention" was rejected at WT:MOSNUM numerous times, its been rejected at WP:FALKLANDSUNITS for exactly the same reason. At one end it can lead to ridiculous sentences when the order or precadence of units switches arbitrarily in sentences, in practise it ends up as metrication by the back door since sources with metric units are preferred by yourself. Presenting the same proposal every 3-4 weeks and ignoring its repeated rejection is disruptive behaviour and I like many others are distinctly irritated by it. And it has been demonstrated in good faith to you that Government usage does not necessarily reflect local usage, so the bad faith response that this streches credulity is not helpful.

WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is prescriptive precisely because you and Martin would use the permissive nature of WP:MOSNUM to metricate articles against consensus and local usage. I also find your constant accusation of "ruses" to stall change irritating and based upon a bad faith presumption that is unacceptable. People have been prepared to compromise, WP:FALKLANDSUNITS was a compromise, accusations of a lack of compromise on the part of others is disingenuous and unhelpful.

If you wish Wikipedia to go metric, then the way to do that is to convince everyone at WT:MOSNUM. Stalling and frustrating a group of editors who want to improve a topic area isn't helpful. Pfainuk had started to implement WP:FALKLANDSUNITS, he reverted those changes as you and Martin decided to restart the debate several weeks after it had been agreed without dissent. So demanding he make a change againt the current consensus as a good faith gesture, is simply a demand made in bad faith. I don't see how further dialogue can move this on, as it is a dialoge of the deaf; you won't listen or compromise. What is needed here is an RFC on user conduct, as I have suggested previously. Justin talk 11:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Justin.

When you say that it is "too prescriptive and a straitjacket for editors", I believe that other editors should be made aware that what you're demanding is that this proposal be entirely subject to your whims. That you demand that we allow you to metricate in contexts where modern British/FI usage is imperial without any good reason at all. Isasmuch as it is prescriptive, it is prescriptive entirely because anything less would be exploited to further the metric agenda.

"People deciding those good reasons" would be all of us, by consensus. I am perfectly willing to consider any reason put forward. But it needs to be a good reason: the fact that you don't like imperial units and the fact that the source might use a different unit from the default are not good reasons.

Finally, I notice that you have once more tried to restart the weather debate. This is an entirely pointless discussion that does nothing beyond wasting all of our time. Suffice to say that I object to the notion that we should apply a consensus that does not exist, as Michael demands.

This whole discussion so far is what I call one-sided haggling. I have compromised several times in this whole saga. Your position is essentially exactly where it was when we started. If someone needs to compromise here to demonstrate good faith, it's you, not me. Pfainuk talk 16:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Stop dodging the question I asked. You know that changing the weather units would be in line with your own proposal. Are you or are you not prepared to demonstrate good faith by agreeing to change the weather units in the Falkland Islands article? Michael Glass (talk) 22:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

You really want to spend weeks going through this again? Never mind that you have asked this question hundreds of times before, and never mind that I have answered it hundreds of times before. You keep on asking, over and over again. I can't believe you don't know the answer already, so the best faith reasoning I can come up with here is that you're trying to irritate everybody and to waste their time.

Why is it, in your view, that I have to constantly demonstrate my good faith when you have never demonstrated good faith in this yourself? You're the one who's spent sixteen months with an essentially unmoving position, trying to force metrication by the front door or (more commonly) by the back door, every three to four weeks. I think the person who needs to demonstrate good faith here is you, not me. I think we've reached a point where it needs to be demonstrated that you're actually willing to compromise and to build consensus rather than just starting up the same argument over and over again for the rest of time.

For the benefit of anyone else who's still reading this: I feel that we should not be implementing a consensus that has not yet been reached, and that instead the existing consensus should stand. Michael and Martin have both argued essentially that the lack of consensus should mean that their POV prevails. I further have a problem with the fact that Michael is constantly demanding compromises from me, but is not willing to compromise in any way himself, or to ask for compromise from other pro-metric users. Pfainuk talk 07:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Pfainuk, the fact that you won't agree to changing even the weather data demonstrates that you had no intention of changing anything at any time if you could help it. Proposing to change the weather data was far less than what you proposed, and was a gigantic concession. You were not prepared to go even that far. This makes a mockery of your claim of having compromised. There is no more to be said here. Michael Glass (talk) 22:59, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

A gigantic concession? It wasn't even a small concession. You demanded something for nothing. You haven't compromised in sixteen months of this same discussion going over and over and this was no different.

Yes, if we get consensus, then I will carry through with that consensus. You've seen that before, and if we get consensus you'll see it again. But to get there you are going to have to compromise - something you haven't done in this yet. Those who prefer imperial units have compromised plenty. Now it's your turn.

That said, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the hope that you might actually be willing to try and build consensus is naïve. If you were going to compromise you would have done it in the last sixteen months. You haven't. You started by demanding full metrication by the front door, you're now demanding full metrication by the back door. If there's someone who has lost credibility here through lack of willingness to compromise, it's you. Pfainuk talk 08:18, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Pfainuk, that's a lie. I asked for a change to the weather data. You refused. The rest is spin. Michael Glass (talk) 02:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Is there any point in answering this? Any benefit to the encyclopædia to be gained from continuing this textual diarrhoea? I see none. So I'll leave it by noting that I reject your accusations. Pfainuk talk 18:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

A new proposal

• I propose Michael Glass should drop the stick and back away from the dead horse. Glider87 (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:57, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed Justin talk 18:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed Pfainuk talk 08:18, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

What the hell... Agreed. [2] (go to 0:18:30...) :-) ― A._di_M.^{3rd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 10:45, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed — I think I heve proposed this before. Apcbg (talk) 11:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Another proposal

• I propose Pfainuk should similarly drop his stick and back away from the other end of said horse. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Get back to the subject

This thread has got bogged down in personal attacks. In order to get the discussion back on topic, I have some observations:

• A number of comments centered on adding 2 kbytes to the article. This is not the case. My actual propoal was to replace "UK"" by "United Kingdom, Crown Dependencies and British Overseas Territories" and then to tidy up the grammer - hardly an addition of 2 kbytes and certainly affects more than "just a few islands in the South Atlantic".
• User:Pfainuk cited WP:EU/MOS as an example of set of articles with their own MOS which is not referenced from WP:MOS. WP:EU/MOS states explicitly that WP:MOS takes precedence; WP:FALKLANDSUNITS does not. Moreover the way in which User:Pfainuk changed the units of measure in the clearly scientific article Geology of the Falkland Islands in a manner which was a clear breach of WP:MOSNUM even after this breach was pointed out him is sufficient demonstration that if WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is to be retained, it needs to explicitly state its relationship to WP:MOSNUM. Martinvl (talk) 05:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Which can be fixed by suggesting an amendment and gaining concensus, the merger proposal has still been rejected. I would also suggest if you intend to comment on personal attacks, then refraining from them would be a good idea. Justin talk 07:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

My proposal was inadvertently corrupted by another editor inserting his response in the middle of my original posting. I am prepared to accept that this was an accident rather than vandalism. Regardless of why it happened, I invite other editors to reread my proposal and to make comments in teh light of the whole text, not just the first part fo the text. Martinvl (talk) 07:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

And I still disagree and you have a lack of agreement in general, restarting the same discussion again is the very definition of tendentious conduct. WP:FALKLANDSUNITS was a good compromise and an eminently workable one, the articles should reflect local usage not some utopian metric dream. Justin talk 11:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The reason the geology article doesn't follow WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is because WP:FALKLANDSUNITS doesn't have consensus at present. If and when it gets consensus, the geology article is one of those that will change. I maintain my objection to this notion that we should delete a perfectly reasonable standing proposal. It is unnecessary and needlessly provocative.

I also note, with slight bemusement at finding myself on the other side of the argument, that the proposed text does not necessarily fairly reflect actual usage in all BOTs. The British Sovereign Base Areas on Cyprus (which between them form one of the British Overseas Territories) follow, insofar as it is practical, Cypriot law. Almost all permanent residents are Cypriots as the British are barred by treaty from using the bases for non-military purposes. I can't comment from experience, but I would imagine that local usage is metric-first in practically all situations that are likely to occur in articles on the subject. Why should they used a mixed system? I believe that Gibraltar also uses the metric system to a greater extent than the UK proper: distances and speeds along Gibraltar roads are measured in kilometres and kilometres per hour, for example. The situation is more complicated than that line would suggest.

As to the relationship with WP:MOSNUM? Well, I'm sure we can agree some appropriate means of doing this without deleting the proposal. It's just that this is the first time that this has been brought up. The proposal is not intended to be subordinate to WP:UNITS but rather complimentary to it. I have edited it to more clearly reflect this, and I hope that the current version can get consensus. Pfainuk talk 18:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:SEASON and the natural world

WP:SEASON redirects to a section that discourages the use of seasons as dates except where there is a logical connection. There is another usage of seasons in articles which is entirely appropriate: the natural world, such as the cultivation of plants and the like. Here we sometimes see the reverse mistake being made, where people assume that seasons always occur in specific months. One example would be assuming that crocuses (an autumn-flowering plant) always bloom around October, and stating "October" in the article instead of "autumn". This kind of mistake can be quite subtle, such as this text from an old version of Pedunculate Oak [here]: Flowering takes place in mid spring, and their fruit, called acorns, ripen by autumn of the same year. Do you see it? It assumes that spring precedes autumn in a calendar year, which is impossible in the Gregorian calendar in the southern hemisphere.

I think we need to expand the guidelines for WP:SEASON a bit. In particular, we need to clarify the situations where seasons are preferred, and mention that seasons and dates are not generally interchangeable. We could do this by adding another whole paragraph, but I think a small clarification and adding one or two more succinct examples may suffice. The only example of the logical connection for seasons mentions "the autumn harvest" which is a bit human-centric. Perhaps we can add as another example something like "apple trees blossom in spring" as an example of seasons in the natural world.

My recommended changes to WP:SEASON:

• Add a sentence along these lines: "Seasons and dates are not generally interchangeable." (I'm not really happy with this wording. Maybe someone can find some better way of expressing this?)
• Add this additional example showing a logical connection in the context of the natural world: "apple trees blossom in spring".

These small amendments may be necessary for those times when people visit WP:SEASON in the context of seasons in the natural world, but instead find discussions about calendar dates. -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 12:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I've never got the point of that piece of instruction in the first place. "The seasons are not the same everywhere in the world so it is generally preferable not to use season names to denote a time of year." So what? Times of the day aren't the same everywhere, either, so should I avoid using night, morning, afternoon, evening, ... but only give UTC times? (As for oaks, I'd say "ripen by the following autumn" which doesn't assume anything.) ― A._di_M.^{3rd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 14:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Is it worthwhile adding the sentence - "For example, Christmas falls in mid-summer in Australia and other Southern Hemisphere countries" - as one who was brought up in the Southern Hemisphere, this might be self-evident, but how would those who have never lived in the Southern feel about such a statement. All too-often I see the British press making Anglo-centric comments like "The England cricket team's winter tour of Australia ..." when they are writing about a tour that starts October and finishes the following March. Martinvl (talk) 18:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Such "dates" are quite common in articles about bands. Statements such as this are quite common: "The Screamers world tour is scheduled for next summer, they will be visiting Sweden, UK, Germany, South Africa, Australia, Japan and Canada." If all the places listed are in the same hemisphere it may arguably be acceptable but often the destinations are not mentioned at all. I think the only time using seasons as dates is really logical is for describing genuinely seasonal events or phenomena, whether human or natural. Roger (talk) 13:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the present wording is clear and adequate. Seasons in the two hemispheres are reversed, and near the Equator, there are other seasons, such as the Wet and the Dry in northern Australia. The sentence above should be revised to read:

• "The Screamers world tour is scheduled for June to August 2011. They will be visiting Sweden, UK, Germany, South Africa, Australia, Japan and Canada."

The British press are very Anglo-centric on matters such as this. Since a significant number of Wikipeida editors have probably never lived in the Southern Hemisphere, this bias is lost on them and they use the phrases that they read in the press. The MOS is trying to remind them the Souther Hemisphere really does exist. Martinvl (talk) 14:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

It should make clear that the seasons cannot be used as dates because they are reversed in the southern hemisphere, and the tropics have different seasons than the temperate zones (i.e. a wet season and a dry season). However, while seasons cannot be used globally for dating things, they have legitimate uses, as in saying "Apple trees bloom in the spring". However, if editors say "Apple trees bloom in the spring", they should be aware that they are implying that they bloom from September 21 to December 21 in the southern hemisphere. (Interestingly, the article says that if grown in Ecuador, which is in the tropics, they bloom twice a year.) RockyMtnGuy (talk) 21:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Fractions, decimals and metric units

The text of this article mentions "eighth of a millimetre". My unerstanding is that vulgar fractions should not be used with metric units. I propose therefore to replace "millimetre" with "inch" in this example and to add an additional bullet point:

• Fractional parts of metric units should always be expressed in decimals (5.25 mm), not vulgar fractions (5 ¹/₄ mm). However imperial units may use either forms - both (5.25 inches and (5 ¹/₄ inches) are acceptable, provided that there is consistency in the way that the fractions are represented. This is consistent with consumer protection legislation in the both the United Kingdom and the United States

References

Martinvl (talk) 20:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Using decimals rather than fractions appears to be a convention. But I failed to find any official policy against fractions in SI. Three of the seven SI base units are defined in terms of fractions, two of which are vulgar fractions:

• 'The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.'
• 'The kelvin, unit of thermodynamic temperature, is the fraction 1/273.16 of the thermodynamic temperature of the triple point of water.'
• 'The candela is the luminous intensity, in a given direction, of a source that emits monochromatic radiation of frequency 540 x 10¹² hertz and that has a radiant intensity in that direction of 1/683 watt per steradian.'

See the official SI website.

However, the convention seems rational to me. If anyone can find a high level reference to the convention, it'd be useful to see. I agree that the phrase 'eighth of a millimetre' is inconsistent with the convention and probably should be changed. Lightmouse (talk) 21:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I found a reference - it is unlawful in the UK for purposes of trade to use vulgar fractions in conjunction with metric units (The Weights and Measures (Quantity Marking and Abbreviations of Units) Regulations 1987). Is this sufficient? Martinvl (talk) 09:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I have included two refernces in the proposed text (see above). Martinvl (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

We should not require that metric units always be expressed as decimals. The citations given by Martinvl are confined to the realm of consumer goods, where the goal is to allow the consumer to compare various packages. Decimal values are certainly superior for that purpose. However, we may sometimes have to write about nominal design values that may be vulgar fractions. For example, if a certain circuit board process required as many contacts as possible in 1 mm, and the designers found the maximum possible was 3, then the contact pitch would be 1/3 mm.

If it was a good idea to require values to always be expressed as decimals, BIPM would have said so. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I take your point. Would you be happy if the bullet point read:

• Unless there is sound reason to the contrary, fractional parts of metric units should be expressed as decimal fractions (5.25 mm), not vulgar fractions (5 ¹/₄ mm). However imperial units may use either form - both (5.25 inches and (5 ¹/₄ inches) are acceptable, provided that there is consistency in the way that the fractions are represented.

This text waters down the strength of the requirement and also removes the consumer legislation links. Also, I have replaced "eighth of a millimetre" with "eighth of an inch" as this does not affect the point that the text is putting across. Martinvl (talk) 19:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I would agree with the text posted by Martinvl at 19:19 UTC. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The current text is missing a parenthesis. I propose the more active phrasing:

• The fractional part of a metric unit should be a decimal fraction (5.25 mm) unless there is a good reason for it to be a vulgar fraction (5 ¹/₄ mm). Imperial units may use either form (5.25 inches or 5 ¹/₄ inches).

I don't see any need for this "rule" to be applied so broadly. What is wrong with saying "Mature oompaloompa trees are between 2¹/₂ and 3¹/₂ metres tall" or "Vehicles heavier than 12¹/₂ tonnes require special permission to enter the city"? The trade regulations of one country are not a sufficient basis for an entry in the MoS - WP is not a business website selling goods to UK citizens. Roger (talk) 19:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Scientific notation, engineering notation, and uncertainty

There seems to me to be an ambiguity with scientific notation. The section states

"Scientific notation is done in the format of one leading digit/decimal marker/rest of digits/×10n, where n is the integer that gives one leading digit."

However, it does not then state whether it is allowed for the leading digit to be zero.

I could argue that the same ambiguity arises with engineering notation, but there I think it is less pronounced, because it seems less likely an editor would increase or decrease the exponent by a factor of a thousand simply to force or avoid a leading zero. Si Trew (talk) 13:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

To that end, anyway, there's no way I would start shuffling around exponents simply to meet MOSNUM if there are several quantities being compared and one or two happen to fall out of range. But I don't think that needs saying, WP:COMMON is enough there I'd have thought. Si Trew (talk) 13:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Pferdestärke has got to go

I posit that "Pferdestärke" or PS as a unit of power has no place in common use on the English Wikipedia. It merely breeds confusion over power units as a unit that obsolete, non-SI and exceedingly rarely used in the majority of English-speaking countries. It is a leftover of history that is noteworthy for its existence, and still useful in those locales and languages in which is it lingua franca, but its presence in the English Wikipedia serves only to engender confusion. I don't advocate its complete removal- in cases where the PS measurement was significant to some issue or another, I feel that it could remain in use- but it should never be used as a unit of preference. I have found in the past that the state of power unit usage on the English Wikipedia is quite confused- with instances of each of the common units (HP, kW, PS) being used alone and also with a conversion, none of which was consistent. I propose that we make a standard policy for listing power which would be either "XX HP (YY kW)" or "XX kW (YY HP)" which does not allow the use of PS as a standard unit of measurement unless the context of the article makes it necessary in order for the rest of the article to make sense. Phasmatisnox (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think section 4.1, "WP:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Which units to use" adequately covers this, although it would seem an extreme case that someone had a valid reason to use the German "Pferdestärke" instead of English "horsepower", and my WIkipedia Search does not bring up any articles when searched on that word (they would seem to have the same definition in common use, judging from de:Pferdestärke). Si Trew (talk) 15:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I did a quick Google search of English Wikipedia for the word and it seems, in the three pages of hits returned, it is only used on this page, Template:Convert and archives of its talk page, a few automotive templates and a few automotive articles about German makes. I don't see a widespread problem here. Si Trew (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem that I see is not that the whole word "Pferdestärke" is being used, but rather, when, say, an engine output is specified, it often comes out in "PS", like Honda CBR600F2, Mercedes-Benz W123, or Honda Prelude. (search for " ps") I've seen this quite a bit. If you do a wiki search for "ps" and ctrl+f for 'power' you will see tons of examples of articles referencing power output in PS. Phasmatisnox (talk) 16:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Add to this that it may be confused with PSI. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)