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::It is not true. I never claimed that this article has a high quality. I only said racism will become important when it is put into practice by politicians. So political manifestaion of racism and racism need to be covered together. That's all what I said. We all know that people of any two country in Europe or Asia may make joke about each other. This is not important but when these ideas are put into practice and real life by politicians then it will become important. About Iranian-Arab relation which has been studied alot, I have to say that: There exists a racism and it was a driver for wars. Have you heard about Saddam last words about Persians? He wanted to clear the earth from Persians even in his last minutes of life! This is not politics or "international relation"! This is racist ideology. [[User:Sangak|Sangak]] 13:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::It is not true. I never claimed that this article has a high quality. I only said racism will become important when it is put into practice by politicians. So political manifestaion of racism and racism need to be covered together. That's all what I said. We all know that people of any two country in Europe or Asia may make joke about each other. This is not important but when these ideas are put into practice and real life by politicians then it will become important. About Iranian-Arab relation which has been studied alot, I have to say that: There exists a racism and it was a driver for wars. Have you heard about Saddam last words about Persians? He wanted to clear the earth from Persians even in his last minutes of life! This is not politics or "international relation"! This is racist ideology. [[User:Sangak|Sangak]] 13:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


:It might be helpful to offer an example here. In wikipedia, Iranian president Ahmadinejad is considered racist. One can easily use your arguments and say all his remarks are about politics and international relation. But this argument can not succeed as our experinec shows. Ahmadinejad even clearly rejected allegation of racism in one of his speech. But he is considered a racist by the public. [[User:Sangak|Sangak]] 14:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:It might be helpful to offer an example here. In wikipedia, Iranian president Ahmadinejad is considered racist. One can easily use your arguments and say all his remarks are about politics and international relation. But this argument can not succeed as our experience shows. Ahmadinejad even clearly rejected allegation of racism in one of his speech. But he is considered a racist by the public. And it is acceptible in wikipedia. [[User:Sangak|Sangak]] 14:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:14, 1 February 2007

Anti-Iranianism

Anti-Iranianism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
That's the defined purpose of the "notice" "board": To inform editors of articles in need of attention, cleanup, sourcing, etc.--Zereshk 20:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If that were the real reason, it would have been listed there weeks ago. Jayjg (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was, and many times. Take a look at the article's history. It has been listed before. Example, July 20th, 2006, it's been listed, and nopt by me.--Zereshk 20:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Despite what the real reason may or may not be (or have been), I don't think it is inappropriate to get comments from the individuals who contributed to this article and who may be more involved with and/or knowledgeabe about the topic. Black Falcon 20:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly okay to post a message on the noticeboards. That's what they are for. They also prevent spamming. --Aminz 04:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is, first and foremost, Original Research. It compiles a list of harsh words or negative actions taken towards Persians, the nation of Persia before it became Iran, and the Iranian government and defines them as "anti-Iranianism." There is no question that racial prejudice against Persians or other Iranians exists, and it deserves an article. The problem is that this article lumps several different topics (anti-Persian sentiments in the ancient world, actions taken by governments against historical Persia, disputes between the US and Iran, anti-Persianism in the Arab world) and lumps them under the heading "anti-Iranianism." The term "anti-Iranianism" is a neologism. If you exclude wikipedia forks and websites referencing wikipedia there are only 365 google hits on the phrase "anti-Iranianism" of which only 150 are unique. [1] Anti-Persianism only gets about 200 ghits without wikipedia [2], and "anti-Persian sentiment" only about 40 [3]. Only six books in the Google books database contain the words "anti-Iranianism" [4] and only two scholarly articles use the term. [5]. By comparison, a well-established concept such as anti-semitism gets over 2 million google results. Anti-Japanese sentiment gets 55,000 google hits and 650 google book hits. [6]Furthermore, the article itself is highly POV. The section on the united states, for example, defines diplomatic actions such as denying visas as anti-Iranianism without any kind of sourcing to suggest that they are. (Not to mention the fact that the content is almost exactly duplicated at United States-Iran relations. It is also highly-POV to lump actions taken against a government together with racism towards an ethnic group (Persians), but this article makes absolutely no distinction between the two. I recently removed a photograph of a US Army poster with the words "IRAN... you're next" and a picture of Uncle Sam holding a wrench from the article. Although presented as an official US Army poster, the image was, of course, ripped off from a WW2 James Montgomery Flagg poster which originally referred to Japan. This kind of flagrant POV violation is rampant in this article. GabrielF 18:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Regarding "neologism", actually "Anti-Iranianism" in Persian language gives 17,000 hits for ایرانی ستیزی and 25,000 hits for ایران ستیزی. Not that google is a measure of what exists and what does not. The article now has a "usage" section, whioch improves on that drawback.--Zereshk 20:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Only the first of your three links works for me. Yes, there are books that use the phrase "anti-Iranian", but is it "anti-Iranian" in the sense described in this article? If the government of Azerbaijan is politically opposed to the government of Iran is that the same thing as racism against Persians? It is OR to link the two together without a scholarly work doing so. GabrielF 18:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To respond to your claim that the article is well-referenced: Yes, there are references that specific events happened. That's irrelevant. There are no references that justify lumping together separate topics (racism towards persians in antiquity, historical disputes between Persia and other countries, disputes between the government of Iran and other countries, anti-Persian sentiment in the Arab world) under the heading of anti-Iranianism. GabrielF 21:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To respond to your claim that we should keep this article because we have other articles on anti-ethnic terms: This is irrelevant, we are not debating the validity of Anti-Italianism. Some of the other anti-ethnic or anti-national articles may be deserving of deletion as well. GabrielF 21:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, possibly rename, cleanup - First, a clarification, the term "anti-Iranianism" would refer to the actions taken against the country of Iran or persons of Iranian nationality, but not persons of Persian descent (that's anti-Persianism). I do agree, however, that lumping anti-Iranianism and anti-Persianism together is inappropriate. In response to your criticisms:
  1. Violating WP:NOR - how so? Please explain (the article provides a great many sources).
  2. Non-notability - I don't think the comparison with anti-Semitism is appropriate as I'm sure its use exceeds all other forms of anti-"Group"ism (with the possibly exception of anti-Americanism).
  3. Violating WP:NPOV - Even if the article is kept, the section on the US should probably be removed in its entirety and replaced with a brief summary and a link to the United States-Iran relations article. Moreover, much of the article (excluding the US section) is about anti-Persianism. Perhaps the article would benefit from being renamed to anti-Persianism and edited to reflect this new title. -- Black Falcon 18:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • OR - The OR comes from taking many separate concepts (anti-Persian sentiments in the ancient world, actions taken against Persia by various governments, actions taken against Iran by various governments, anti-Persian sentiment in the Arab world) and lumping them together under a new concept that is not used by scholars. I agree that an article about racism against Persians is acceptable and I agree that an article on US-Iran relations is acceptable, but putting them all together under what is essentially a neologism is not acceptable. GabrielF 19:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, then, we are (essentially) in agreement (with the possible exception that I still think the article ought to be worked on and not deleted). I think the OR element would be removed if a distinction was drawn between anti-Persianism in reference to the Persian people, anti-Persianism in reference to the Persian government, anti-Iranianism in reference to the Iranian people, and anti-Iranianism in reference to the Iranian government. In order to fit with the Anti-Arabism, Anti-Turkism, etc. articles, the article should include only anti-Persianism and anti-Iranianism against the Persian and Iranian peoples, respectively. Although the two groups are not the same, I think the fact that many (including most Westerners) equate the two groups justifies their inclusion in one article at least for now (ideally, they would be separate articles about hostility to Persian ethnics and Iranian nationals). Black Falcon 19:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I could support keeping parts of the article if it was called something like Racial prejudice against Persians and Iranians and only dealt with that topic. The problem is that the events and quotes in this article are generally cited, but I don't see a source that really defines the concept of anti-Iranianism or anti-Persianism and gives its history. In the case of prejudice against minorities in the west and even in the ancient world, there are many notable historical works that identify what the prejudice is, how it is defined, what its history is, etc. Those works can then be debated by other scholars. In this case we're doing that work ourselves and that is OR. If the article is rewritten so that it is based on scholarly work about anti-Persianism and not an original synthesis of historical events that identifies people as anti-Persian than the article is okay. Otherwise, I think we're outside the domain of an encyclopedia. Regardless, the political stuff (Bush Sr. not apologizing for shooting down a plane, the US denying visas, a legal dispute about Persian antiquities, etc. etc.) must be removed from this article. It is highly, highly POV. GabrielF 19:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, I posted in response to your unrevised comment. I do agree that most of the political section should be removed (in fact, I will take a look right after I submit this comment). I am not really familiar with the scholarly dialogue and can therefore suggest this: Delete the blatantly POV sections and cleanup the remainder of the article through a discussion on the talk page. If after some time these issues have not been resolved and constructive dialogue on the talk page has ceased, nominate the article for AfD once more. What do you think? Black Falcon 19:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This would be an acceptable solution for me. Particularly controversial cases could be discussed on the article's talk page. However, the cleanup needs to be done carefully. For example, Russian occupation of Persian territories is really not anti-Persianism. However, other cases should be kept (or at least discussed). For example, the photo with the poster stating "Deport all Iranians" or a statement like "Nuke Iran" are aimed at both the state and the people. I think such cases should be included (but again, this is a matter for the talk page). So, (assuming, of course, you and the remaining contributors to this AfD agree) how do we go about doing this? I don't know if it's proper Wikiquette to rename/hugely modify a page during an AfD (although if it survives completely unchanged, I will be bold and do it myself). Black Falcon 19:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, maybe the current title should be kept and a statement added at the beginning about what the article will and will not include. I'm not opposed to renaming if a good (and ideally 'shortish') title can be found. Black Falcon 19:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notability Even without the comparison to anti-semitism, you would expect that the topic of a wikipedia article would be, especially one as controversial as this, would generate some scholarly interest and discussion. However, I was shocked at how little I found about the concept of Anti-Iranianism. GabrielF 19:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way, by cleanup I mean deleting at least 2/3 of the article. It is useless (and also POV) to classify every criticism of or military action against Persia or Iran as anti-Iranianism (not just in the US section). Black Falcon 19:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, every military action against Iran has not been listed. Youd be surprised at how many times Iran has been invaded. And this is not "criticism", nor is this, or this or this. Now if all these said "Fuck the Jews", we would be quick to list them as examples of existing "anti-semitism", wouldnt we now.--Zereshk 19:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I realize that every action has not been listed; I was trying to make a point. I do agree that anti-Iranianism and anti-Persianism exists (see my comments above, including the example on "Nuke Iran"), but think the article should address them in the context of hostility to the Iranian and Persian peoples, and not the Iranian and Persian governments. Also, whereas "Fuck the Jews" is anti-Semitic, "fuck Israel" is not (at least not necessarily). Likewise, "fuck Iranians" is anti-Iranian (people) whereas "fuck Iran" is not (at least not necessarily). I still favor keep and cleanup. Black Falcon 19:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with your second point that any criticism of Jews would be included on wikipedia. We do have notability standards and I would be absolutely opposed to including a discussion of non-notable idiot attack websites on wikipedia. Notable anti-semitism should be discussed, but nukeiran.com has an alexa rank of about 3,000,000. Perhaps there's a larger point here. If the best examples of anti-Iranianism you can come up with are a couple of non-notable webpostings, should we really have a 90k article on the topic? GabrielF 20:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also note that while I do think the topic is encyclopedia-worthy (and should be kept), much of it currently reads like History of hostile interactions between Iran and other states. Anti-Iranianism against the Iranian state is also very real, but that should belong in the individual country relations articles (US-Iran, Iraq-Iran, Russia-Iran, etc.). I don't believe the content of the article is useless or bad (in fact, I think they are quite well-sourced and should be available on other pages on WP); just that it is inappropriate to put it all together and especially to put it under this title. Black Falcon 20:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep or merge and major cleanupI think the material contained within the article is notable although I believe it violates NPOV in some respects. Listing cities "likely to be attacked by the US" is a good example. Surely this could be worded differently.--IRelayer 19:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
CommentThis article was nominated to deletion please look at the former discussions too.[10]--Sa.vakilian 19:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, of course, per GabrielF and Morton devonshire. Wikipedia is not the place for invented victimhoods and neologisms. Jayjg (talk) 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong and Speedy keep. First, I think the proposing of deletion of this article is highly politically motivated. Secondly, "Persia" IS Iran: It is the official name of the country prior to 1935. Thirdly, calling the article things like "POV fork", "soapbox", or "neogism" is completely unfounded; that's the very reason why nearly 100 sources are given to back up every inch of the article. And finally, Google is not a scholarly or scientific measure of what does and what does not exist, by any means. Google only quantifies the number of links to a page by other ranked websites, mostly commercial. Take for example the article Zayandeh Rud civilization. It exists NOWHERE on google, except for WP and the links given there. So does it not exist? In fact it does. Similar here. Anti-Iranianism does exist and it is VERY REAL.--Zereshk 19:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Where to start. First of all, this qualifies as original research, second of all, it isn't notable as an academic subject and finally, this looks like a pov fork attempt. Guy Montag 19:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With such strong referencing of the article, it's a bit difficult to call it "original research".--Zereshk 19:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Original research is often well-referenced; that's how just about every PhD thesis is written. However, while that's fine for PhD theses, it's forbidden in Wikipedia. Jayjg (talk) 19:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PHD theses actually count as sources according to WP rules.--Zereshk 20:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is that relevant? The article is not a PhD thesis, and Wikipedia doesn't allow original research! Jayjg (talk) 20:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you didnt follow the logic. Regardless, if it was "original research" it wouldnt be listed by Persian google on 42,000 hits.--Zereshk 20:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. The article makes reference to times before the Islamic Republic abundantly. Anti-Iranianism examples like this are not targeted at governments.--Zereshk 20:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anti-Iranianism#US_refusal_to_grant_visas_to_Iranians_for_United_Nations_activities Iranians should be proud that mullah Mousa Qorbani didn't get a visa. He is the one in charge of Majles, not the speaker.
Anti-Iranianism#Claims_of_threats_of_a_military_attack_on_Iran_by_the_US is the best thing for Iran. What is wrong with dropping bombs on mullahs?
Anti-Iranianism#Claims_of_plans_for_use_of_nuclear_weapons_against_Iran. Iran can have nuclear weapons, but the mullahs, NEVER. It will be the permanently of totalitarianism, veil fetishism for the mullahs and their prancing Islamic cohorts.
Anti-Iranianism#Iranian_fears_of_attack_by_the_US No one has any fear. Irania love it.
Split the latter part of the article and dub it the anti-mullah movement.

--Patchouli 20:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong keep per Mardavich and Zereshk. Article is very well sourced and the topic is legitimate, no question. That some people here want to minimise, ignore or even deny racism and prejudice against Iranians (who are NOT just Persians! I myself am half-Kurd, half Arab!) is horrible and disgusting. There is a double standard on WP when articles like Antisemitism, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Turkism, Anti-Armenianism, Anti-Hellenism, Anti-Irishism, Anti-Italianism are here, and this one is to be deleted! This is amazing! Anyone who thinks that racism and bigotry against Iranians (Persians, Kurds, etc etc) doesn't exist is living in a fantasy of ignorance and denial. And I am getting very tired of all the attacks on Iranians on WP - it never ends! We come to WP to help make an encyclopedia and instead we are all always having to defend ourselves against bigoted attacks towards our ethnic and national background. Is this a joke? Khorshid 20:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you should consider actually reading the the nomination? To quote: "There is no question that racial prejudice against Persians exists, and it deserves an article. The problem is that this article lumps several different topics (anti-Persian sentiments in the ancient world, actions taken by governments against historical Persia, disputes between the US and Iran, anti-Persianism in the Arab world) and lumps them under the heading "anti-Iranianism." The term "anti-Iranianism" is a neologism." GabrielF 20:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please read this carefully: I am NOT Persian! I am a half-Kurd half Arab Iranian! Persians are less than half of Iran population and there are many other ethnic groups! My God! Khorshid 20:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that nobody is saying that there is no animosity towards Iranians in the world. This article is being nominated for deletion because some users believe that it violates wikipedia policy. Also, those other articles are separate issues. They may very well be worthy of deletion as well. GabrielF 20:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Khorshid, I do not think this was a bad-faith nomination or constitutes "bigoted attacks towards our ethnic and national background". It has been noted many times above that Iranians and Persians are distinct groups (including by the nominator--see the first thread I started). I do not perceive GabrielF's concern with the article to be that it is about a non-existent topic, but rather that it conflates hostility against the Persian/Iranian states with hostility against the Persian/Iranian peoples. I believe the article should be kept and anything addressing only anti-state sentiments removed (not discarded; possibly merged to individual Country-Iran relations pages). Anti-Iranianism, as it refers to the state, is a real phenomenon, but it can be convered in the articles for US-Iran, Iraq-Iran, Israel-Iran, Turkey-Iran, etc. relations. I don't know if a foreign relations of Iran template exists, but (if it doesn't) it would be useful in connecting these separate articles. Black Falcon 20:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'd like to mention that this article has gone thru name changes on previous Afds, some names of which have been proposed again here. I call this the "oscillatory effect". Going back and forth on something.--Zereshk 20:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and major cleanup to separate the lumped-together topics. Also notably while there is a huge difference between prejudice towards people of a nation and that nation's government, unfortunately many people in this great nation the USA consider them one in the same, making things very complicated. Krimpet 20:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"GabrielF" if you don't have any other thing to do, please take a look at this Animal rights and antisemitism(?!)

I will bookmark this AfD for future refrences; take care --Pejman47 20:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:), excerpt of my vote: "It has lots of reference and personally I take it as another "reference" for the factuality of that)--Pejman47 21:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed that argument above. Yes, the actual incidents in the article are referenced, what is not referenced is a reliable source that defines those incidents as anti-iranianism, or a source that defines anti-iranianism in the first place. Wikipedia cannot combine racist quotes about Persians with political statements by world leaders about Iran's actions under the heading of "anti-Iranianism" without a source that identifies that action as equivalent to racism against Iranians. GabrielF 21:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and move content to other articles article is a collection of topics with a highly misleading title, please keep the content in wikipedia, but in appropriate articles Elizmr 21:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I support drastically shortening the article (its currently >90K and should probably be at around 10K). I also support merging most of the content from this article to individual Country-Iran relations (e.g., United States-Iran relations) articles. However, why not keep this page and refocus it toward addressing negative sentiments toward the Persian and Iranian peoples (instead of the governments)? Black Falcon 22:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree with you in spirit, but in action sorting out the bit about neg sentiments against the peoples vs gov'ts would be very difficult if not impossible and would involve a lot of OR. The first photo (70's us protestor), for instance, where would that fall? I'd wager many would say it was evidence of anti-Iranian-people sentiment in the US, but I think it was more of a protest (albiet a ridiculoulsy stupid one) against the Iranian gov't actions against Americans in that country. Elizmr 22:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I think that that is something that could be resolved on the talk page. I personally favor including it due to the text of the poster: "Deport all Iranians", even though I completely agree with you as to its actual sentiment. True, the problem is compounded by the fact that sentiments often transfer from a regime to its people, but again I think that a solution could be reached on the article's talk page. As for the remainder of the article, I believe the absolute majority does not belong -- I have said above that it reads like a political history of Iran's negative interactions with other states. I have made the following suggestion to the nominator and he has said he is thinking it over: Delete the blatantly POV and other irrelevant sections and cleanup the remainder of the article through a discussion on the talk page. If after some time these issues have not been resolved and constructive dialogue on the talk page has ceased, nominate the article for AfD once more. -- Black Falcon 22:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, merging any salvageable material into other articles (where sourceable). I have no doubt that any particular ethnicity, nation, minority or even special-interest group can be discriminated against; yet there is nothing in this article to support a particular "Anti-Iranianism" concept. None of the sources listed actually discuss such a topic or provide research into such a supposed phenomenon. Further, Google provides next to no such usage of "Anti-Iranianism, outside of Wikipedia and mirrored copies. In sum, it's the very definition of Original Research, intended to support a precept that does not conform to Neutral Point of View policy. --LeflymanTalk 21:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Anti-Iranian" is not the same thing as "Anti-Iranianism" -- the "-ism" suffix denotes some sort of definable phenomenon, practise or organised movement. Any citizen of any county in the world-- of which there are nearly 200-- could claim someone is "Anti-" them. That's why we get such silly articles as Anti-Australianism and Anti-Canadianism, although surprisingly, not "Anti-Mexicanism". In short, such articles are misuses of Wikipedia as soap-boxes for a particular viewpoint, not descriptions of actual encyclopedic topics. --LeflymanTalk 22:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that the "ism" is unnecessary and makes it sound like a theory or a broad-based movement, but this can be easily corrected by renaming the article (and, of course, major cleanup). Black Falcon 23:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are predecents in Anti-Japanese sentiment, Anti-German sentiment, Anti-Polish sentiment, Anti-French sentiment in the United States, Anti-Australian sentiment, Anti-Croatian sentiment. We should not throw out the baby with the bath water. A renaming of the article and a clean-up seems much more reasonable than a deletion. --70.51.232.106 22:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't base your keep vote on the existence of other articles. The issues with this article are not necessarily the same as those with other articles and just because another bad anti-ethnic article hasn't been AfD'd now doesn't mean it won't be in the future. GabrielF 22:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the delete votes are based on WP:NEO. This user's "keep" vote addresses that concern by proposing to rename the article so that the "neologism" (Anti-Iranianism) isn't used. Black Falcon 22:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Users only contributions are to this AfD. GabrielF 22:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You can discount my vote if you so desire, but I feel it is legitimate. I don't use a formal account. Me and GabrielF have run into each other twice before, on "Palestine Peace Not Apartheid" where we were in agreement and then later on "Proposed_Israeli_Nuclear_First_Strike_on_Natanz_Facility" where we were not. --70.51.232.106 23:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This user is not a single purpose account and his vote should not be discounted. GabrielF 23:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I notice you had noted this for another user as well. I'm just curious, what's the point? Black Falcon 22:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
AFDs are not votes, but nevertheless non-contributors who post for the first time to offer their two-cents can obfuscate consensus. CONTRIBUTOR CORRECTED AlexeiSeptimus 23:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not uncommon for editors to mark possible single purpose accounts on controversial AfDs. Many AfDs have been targeted by sockpuppets and meatpuppets in the past. GabrielF 23:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. However, do take this with caution. My first contribution (on a talk page, not an AfD) took place after I saw an article that I thought was factually inaccurate (List of terrorist organisations). New users are often drawn to the controversial articles and/or debates. Finally, this may simply an established user who hasn't logged in for whatever reason. Black Falcon 23:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Anti-Iranian sentiment" only gets 228 google hits of which 134 are unique. [11] How is that less of a neologism? GabrielF 22:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, a simple Google test is not a good reason for deletion (see Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Google test). Secondly, don't search for all three terms together--"anti-Iranian" minus wikipedia gets over 80,000 hits and "anti-Iranian" sentiment(s) minus wikipedia gets nearly 15,500. Thirdly, the phrase "anti-Iranian sentiment" is a simple phrase constructed from commonly-used words. Finally, though I do agree with your criticism of the article and the need to drastically change it, I would also like to note that it's going to be rather hard to improve if it's gone. Black Falcon 23:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NEO is a rule of thumb which notes a particularly high cooccurance of articles on recently coined (or completely original) phrases and original research. In this case, it is spot on. CONTRIBUTOR CORRECTED AlexeiSeptimus 23:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
True, thank you for noting this. Still, a few of users have based their delete votes on this point, even though it could be easily corrected by a page-move. Black Falcon 23:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the WP:OR violation is implied, but fine. AlexeiSeptimus 23:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To respond to your comment that "though I do agree with your criticism of the article and the need to drastically change it, I would also like to note that it's going to be rather hard to improve if it's gone." There's no reason to assume that just because an article is deleted through AfD the topic won't be covered by wikipedia. To give a recent example, after I nominated [[12]] I created a short article to deal with the topic at Violence against academics in post-invasion Iraq. I would advise waiting a couple of days before doing that in this case because this debate has really just begun. I would also advise basing a new article on works by professional historians rather than just copying the current original synthesis. GabrielF 23:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you think it would be simpler working with this (well-referenced) article as a starting point? People know where it is, it has (if not before then now for sure) attracted a great deal of attention and potential contributors, etc. And yes, I do intend to wait at least until this AfD is closed before I seriously think about starting a new article (e.g., by researching the topic). Essentially, I do think that this current version of the article should go, but I don't think all of the content should be lost. Black Falcon 00:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the sections I propose to delete in their entirety:
  1. "The Mongolian era" – the Mongolians treated everybody horribly (no special sentiments proven/sourced)
  2. "By colonial powers" – purely political history (no hostile sentiments proven/sourced)
  3. "By the United States" – same as above
  4. "By the media" – single quote, probably applies to Iranian regime
  5. "Against Iranian scientists" - mostly political actions against Iran itself
What is left is the section on the ancient Greeks, (possibly, as I haven’t read the external article) the Turks, and the Arabs. These sections do, of course, need to be revised, but at least all of them directly address hostile sentiments held against Persian and Iranian peoples. The missing US section is significant, but it can be added from scratch (encompassing present anti-Iranianism and such sentiments during the hostage crisis). Comments? Black Falcon 00:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete a doodely. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per GabrielF. There's no doubt that what you could broadly call "anti-Iranian" sentiments exist. The problem is conflating various critisms of the government into some kind of ethnic hatred to advance a novel synthesis -ie WP:OR. <<-armon->> 23:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I completely agree with your argument, but not your vote. If the problem is this conflation (which I have noted above is NPOV), it can be removed from the article (see my thread with the nominator if you wish -- second vote from the top). Black Falcon 23:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Category:Anti-national sentiment. It has a lot of neutrality and original research problems as many delete voters have pointed out and hopefully some of them will stick around to try to clean it up. Savidan 23:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep Similar articles exist and it is well sourced. --alidoostzadeh 00:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per OR concerns. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 00:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Keep if your going to nominate these nominate the rest. Nareklm 00:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment I haven't all the comments, but if there is anti-semitism, anti-black.. there is also anti-Iranianism. For example Saddam hussein's uncle wrote a book: three things god should not have created: jews, flies and Iranians. I think readers have the right to know about this. Note I am not saying Iranians were perfect either and I am sure there is critism (as there should) of some Iranians in other articles. --alidoostzadeh 00:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Whether racial prejudice against Persians or Iranians exists is NOT the issue being discussed here. The problem is that this article is OR and POV. An article on racial prejudice against Iranians would be fine. 01:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - Should be kept not only because anti-Iranianism exists, but also because of the simple precedent of ethnicities getting "anti-" pages where evidence is available. Weak keep because this article has always been rambling and off-topic, treating regular wars as if they are some example of anti-Iranianism. Actual examples of anti-Iranianism should be added to these contexts, instead of just listing off history summaries. It isn't like the enemies did not express anti-Iranian views, so I have always wondered why the creators of this article never put actual examples in to these parts. In sum, this article should be improved, not deleted. The Behnam 01:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Behnam jan, you should chekc out the thong I just added (before it is erased under some bani-esraeely pretext).--Zereshk 01:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes, that is an especially despicable example. Just like this nomination. The Behnam 01:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If nothing, at least it refutes your claim of "neologism" which is what this AfD is based on. I suppose that 6 million Iranians must die in gas chambers for people to find "Anti-Iranianism" as "encyclopedic". And never mind that the term gives over 40,000 hits on Persian google.--Zereshk 01:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Obviously, all articles need improvement. But the faults listed on this nomination are not warranted. I dont support the deletion of this article. It's way too rich, and thoroughly sourced.--Nightryder84 02:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep I am unconfortable with all this 'anti-xyz' sort of articles, my decision is based on what I might call 'Jurisprudence.' There are precedents, but I won't like it if every group start requesting its 'anti' article. But I can concieve how there could be materials about this. Fad (ix) 02:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • additional comment Just an additional comment. One of Saddam's ministor and former government of Baghdad said: Ajam (Iranians/Persians) are animals that God created in the shape of Humans. Also he further said: Jews are a mixture of the dirt and leftover of diverse people. If anyone is offended, I apologize, but I wanted to mention the seriousness of the issue. Note just like the idiot Ahmadinezhad recently made some anti-semitic statements which have been condemned by Iranian intellectuals, there have been people and dynasties (like the Ummayads) who actively discriminated against Iranians. Note the chemical use of weapons by Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war against Iranian civilians. And here is a source from Cambridge university which is legitimate and uses the term: The Barkamids probably favoured some Zoroastrian officials like Banu Sahl and opposed anti-Iranian officials like Muhammad b. Laith.(The Cambridge history of Iran By William Bayne Fisher, pg 71). Thus legitimate references are easy to find. --alidoostzadeh 03:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • strong keep The article is not OR, it is the compilation of material mostly from named sources, and that is exactly how all WP articles are supposed to be made. The historical parts need more references, but almost all of the existing historical articles in WP are in the same state. A few good general sources for these sections would help, in English if at all possible since this is the en WP. DGG 03:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
comment: I found that some of wikipedians voted to keep this article last time[13] and surprisingly have voted to delete it this time.Even they had proposed to changed the name and agreed with this new name last time. They are Elizmr :"Strong keep but take out the phrase "by Arabs" to increase parallelism with the Anti-Semitism, Anti-Arabism, etc articles. Elizmr 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC), Tewfik :Keep per Nightryder84 & Mani1, however move to NPOV title. The current title does not even reflect the early periods of Greek conflict described in the article. TewfikTalk 06:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC) and Armon : * Keep per Mani1 as Anti-Persian sentiments not "Anti-Persianism by Arabs". --Armon 17:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)--Sa.vakilian 03:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I guess this article has gotten really, really bad, then. AlexeiSeptimus 03:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
CommentThis article was nominated to deletion ,but please look at the former discussions about Anti-Persianism_by_Arabs too.[14]--sahaban 10:05, 01 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, The article is interresting, well sourced and informative. It has been proposed for deletion in the past and the result was a keep, and I do not see what has changed since then to justify a delete. MI see that most of those who want the article deleted are actively pushing pro-israeli POV on the pages of Wikipedia and suspect that this is their main motivation for repeatedly proposing this deletion. Abu ali 10:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Farhoudk 10:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Last few months of CNN hearing can tell that topic is real. It does not matter if it is fully developed article or not as long as the topic is real. --- ALM 10:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I read the comments. All questions have been answered properly. The article has to be kept obviously and improved further. It is neither OR nor POV fork. It is not "Neologism" either. Calling this, neologism is itself POV fork. Wikipedia is not a dictionary of English language. Many of the titles that we have in wikipedia have no equivalent in non-western languages, simply because the issues are not relevant to those cultures. The reverse is also true. Anti-Iranism and other recisms like anti-arabs, anti-armenians etc exist both in real life and in the literature of those involved. Let me inform you that the word Holocaust did not exist in Persian literature until one and a half years ago (before the new president got the office). Do you think we should not have a page on holocaust in Persian wikipedia? Are persian wikipedians allowed to call it Neologism? I have noticed that some voted for "delete" arguing that they are against all "Anti-X'ism" articles. This argument is practically useless and irrelevant to our discussion here on this particular page. About anti-Iranianism in the US, the subject will be improved as time passes. It for sure exists and has had clear manifestations. Sangak 11:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete First, the article muddles two things: international relations (political actions against the Iranian state) and racism. Personally, I think either one could be an appropriate topic for an article or part of an article, but not in this totally muddled form. Second, the article seems to me to be entirely original research. It might be interesting to have an article on divisions in Islam, whcih could include not only conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a, but also conflicts between competing national centers of power, and then, in another article on Iranian history, discuss Iran's conflicts with its historical neighbors as well as conflicts arising from European colonialism and then the Cold War ... I suspect much of what people wish were of value in this article could be accommodated by those two articles, each of which would provide more clarity and effective contextualization. Even so, contributors woul dhave to be more familiar with our NPOV and especially NOR policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: "Being original research or not" has nothing to do with our personal opinion. If some thing have been researched before it is no longer an original research. This article is not about Iran-US relations and the conflicts between these two countries. There are other articles covering it. If US president insult Iranian president, we will not cover it here. If US wants to attack a nuclear site in Iran, we will not cover it here. But when it comes to "prejustice" and "insulting" and "treating all Iranians the same way" then this article is a place for that. Racism and politics are not separate from eachother. There were lots of politics around Holocaust, Armenian genocide, and anti-Iranianism by Arabs. It is meaningless to separate policical manifestaion of racism from racism. I have to emphasize that Iran-Setizi or whatever you want to call it, has more 1000 years of continuous history. Sangak 13:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless, the current article as a whole violates NOR and is thus unacceptable. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it violate NOR, when there are review articles on the subject in Persian? One can not say some thing is not OR because there is no proper review article on the subject in X-language. Racism exist every where (US, Iran, Arab countries, Europe etc). And it is not wise to look for a review article on recist view of let's say iranians in their language. Ofcourse no one write about his/her being racist! Sangak 13:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, you are wrong about the article not being muddled, not muddling international relations with racism. The article is muddled. It does include much material on foreign relations anti-Iranianism, which is not racism. For example, contrary to your initial comment, the first quote (which comes from an apparently authorless and unpublished paper which may or may not constitute a valid source) refers not to racism but to US foreign policy - precisely what you said the article is not about. The anti-Iranianism in Vali Nasr's article is about Iraqui foreign policy - again, international relations, not racism. The section on the Greeks and Romans makes irrelevant remarks (th eentire last paragraph) and has no citations. I am not going to go on - virtually the entire article is about international relations and not racism, despite your protestations, and it includes unsourced or primary material, or inappropriate source (Edward Teller?) The Nelson frye quote concerning Arabs is more a statement of Arab ignorance than racism; the use of a dictionary definition to establish racism is clearly a violation of NOR because it is using a primary source to make a synthetic statement. Anti-Iranianism in early Islam is again about international relations (competition between different states for political power) and not racism. Changing the names of places from one language to another is not racism. The quote from From The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries is also original resource because a quote is taken out of context, put into another context to make a point the quote itself does not make. The section, Ali vs. Umar ibn al-Khattab, also seems to rely on primary sources. And so on, and so on. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not true. I never claimed that this article has a high quality. I only said racism will become important when it is put into practice by politicians. So political manifestaion of racism and racism need to be covered together. That's all what I said. We all know that people of any two country in Europe or Asia may make joke about each other. This is not important but when these ideas are put into practice and real life by politicians then it will become important. About Iranian-Arab relation which has been studied alot, I have to say that: There exists a racism and it was a driver for wars. Have you heard about Saddam last words about Persians? He wanted to clear the earth from Persians even in his last minutes of life! This is not politics or "international relation"! This is racist ideology. Sangak 13:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It might be helpful to offer an example here. In wikipedia, Iranian president Ahmadinejad is considered racist. One can easily use your arguments and say all his remarks are about politics and international relation. But this argument can not succeed as our experience shows. Ahmadinejad even clearly rejected allegation of racism in one of his speech. But he is considered a racist by the public. And it is acceptible in wikipedia. Sangak 14:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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