Talk:Jinn

Category "Quranic words and phrases"

Recently, the Categroy "Quranic words and phrases" were added. Since the catergory is only about the term, but not about the concept, the category was removed again. However, I think it might make sense toa dd this category, given this specific section of the article:

"In Quranic interpretation, the term jinn can be used in two different ways: as invisible beings, considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār). as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings."

This article also covers the meaning of this term, not only the concept, although the main focus is on the concept. But since Islamic exegesis is inconsistent in using the term as a concept on its own and as a term with various meanings, we might add the category "Quranic words and phrases". VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The Movie Section and Suggestion for "Jinn in Horror Movies"

The article itself is pretty long, and a large part seems to be the popular Culture section. There is muhc literature analyzing jinn as a motif in Horror Movies. We have a Genii in Popular Culture article but mostly featuring "Western" tropes of the "Genie in the Bottle". Do you think there should be an article about jinn in Horror Movies? I would suggest that we leave only an outline on jinn in Horror movies, a few references to confirm jinn d feature as a Horror Trope in modern times, and then move most details to the new article. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Merging

What do other editors of this article think about merging parts of theology and exegesis, and folkoric content? Many content is written like a list of depictions of jinn from different sources, but could be changed into one prose text. Similarly, theology and exegesis contain double content such as the position of the Asharis about jinn-possession. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Main image

Currently if you look at the main image, it says it is a jinn, which you can tell because, as the caption claims anyway, it has hooves, which is seemingly the only determining factor of whether something is a jinn or not? But if you click on that image, however, it says it is a div. Div are described as having tusks like a boar, which this image does. Divs are not jinn, so one of those pages is clearly incorrect. But the caption says it is a jinn, because hooves! Yet if you click on the red jinn image on the same page, you get a jinn without hooves. Can someone who knows these things do something to fix this? 2601:840:8080:4B10:6D5B:B488:A666:9E21 (talk) 00:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I did some research on the Kitab al Bulhan to determine what the images are about. Unfortunately, it is not clear. It seems they could indeed be divs (demons) or jinn (genii). We know that the main image is jinn from the description saying "ghoul" (which is a jinni). If you think that is a mistake, please let us know.

Regarding the seven jinn kings, who are sometimes also described as divs or ifrits instead, we cannot say for sure, how they relate to the (other) jinn. Remember that the article says in the section "interpretation": "the term jinn can be used in two different ways:

as invisible beings, offspring of abu Jann considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār).

as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings"

It is possible that the jinn-king are only jinn in the secondary meaning of the term, an invisible entity. The section speaking about the jinn-kings is related to the tradition of Islamic magical practises, in which terms like jinn are rather ambiguous and my not have hooves. However, to avoid confusion, the note about "hooves" could be removed from the main image.

Thank you for your input, it is well appreciated. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Recent deletions

Oversized images"

@Skyerise:
I recently enlarged some images of jinn. These were mostly reverted by Skyerise as "oversized" or because "only lead image should be manually enlarged". I realize that if Skyrise is opposed to my changes then there is no consensus for them, but for the record they were enlarged because at least on the settings for most laptops or phones they were small, cramped, hard to see. It's not as though space is limited and larger images squeeze out text. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Please see the image use policy and MOS:IMGSIZE. The degree of enlargement was excessive. Users have the ability to customize their image size and therefore we should not simply conform an article to a single editor's personal preferences. Skyerise (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Belief in jinn and belief in Islam

@VenusFeuerFalle:
I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by VenusFeuerFalle, who's reverted pretty much every edit I've made to Islamic articles in the last week or so. Below is what happened, and my case against the reverts.

The first (somewhat clumsy) attempt in the lede

Although they are not one of the Five Pillars of Islam, or Six Articles of Faith, like Angels, they [jinn] are mentioned in the Quran, and so considered necessary for a good Muslims to believe in (at least according to Amira El-Zein).

VenusFeuerFalle reverted this with the edit summary:

"Undid revision 1212903926 by Louis P. Boog (talk) El Zein is no authority of Islamic theology, furthermore, the lead is a summary of the body off text. The debate how they are a dogma or not is too petty for the lead-section. Also it you need to watch the tone. Are "Mutazilites" "bad Muslims" for rejecting that "jinn" means "spirit"?"

The second attempt was with a much shorter mention in the lede

Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran.

reverted with the edit summary:

"The Book dedicates an entire chapter how Muslim schoalrs doubt the existence of jinn, putting this into the lead gives undue weight and as mentioned several times before, the user needs to evaluate the context fo the sources used. The lead section is a sumamry and jinn are not even a genuine Islamic concept."

I also added text in the Exegesis section of the article

1) a few lines about the revivalist reasoning on the issue (see note) by noted revivalist Maududi ...

... and revivalist preacher Abul A'la Maududi, insist belief in jinn is essential [to the Islamic faith] ...

reverted with the edit summary

"→‎Exegesis: tone, they can only assert an opinion, since they are no authority. And this revivalist is certainly promotion of subjective ideas and not backed up by any relaible source."

2) ... and I made mention of an incident where an Egyptian university professor was threatened with death (Nasr Abu Zayd went into exile after being accused of apostasy, in part for his alleged disbelief in Jinn)

reverted with the edit summary:

"noone cares if some dude went to exile for denial, this is an encyclopedia not a newspaper. and yes, this is about exegesis."

Reply

• The lead section is a sumamry and jinn are not even a genuine Islamic concept.

The one sentence I put in the lede is a summary of the what is in the articles Exegesis section. Jinn are mentioned 29 or so times in the Quran. They have a surah named after them. Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm, Abul A'la Maududi, and others seem to think they are an Islamic concept. They are major figures in Islam.

• The debate how they are a dogma or not is too petty for the lead-section
• noone cares if some dude went to exile for denial, this is an encyclopedia not a newspaper.

If a "dude" (Nasr Abu Zayd) is threated with death for apostasy (in part) because he didn't believe in jinn (he also didn't believe in slavery), and if belief in his apostasy in his country (Egypt) is so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him
..... wouldn't this be the very definition of not "petty"!
Another question, Does this text not belong in Exegesis? (where the issue of belief in jinn being a necessary part of Iman was raised)? OK, but it should be moved, not deleted.

• this revivalist [i.e. Maududi] is certainly promotion of subjective ideas and not backed up by any relaible source.

Maududi has been called "the most influential" of the contemporary Islamic revivalist scholars (Hassan, M Kamal (July–October 2003). "he Influence of Mawdudi's Thought on Muslims in Southeast Asia: A Brief Survey". The Muslim World. 93 (3/4): 429. Retrieved 14 March 2024.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date format (link))
As far as exegesis goes, he is the author of a 6-volume translation and commentary of the Qur'an. Isn't wikipedia supposed to be based on reliable sources and not editor's opinions on who is an "authority"? What is this text doing in a section on Exegesis, you might ask. Well, what is discussion of whether the majority of Muslim scholars think "that jinn can possess individuals" doing there? Is that found in tafsir?

• you need to watch the tone. Are "Mutazilites" "bad Muslims" for rejecting that "jinn" means "spirit"?

I specifically stated "(at least according to Amira El-Zein)". She was the source (she's the author of a book on Jinn), and stated in her book "one can't be a Muslim if he/she doesn't have faith in their [the jinns'] existence because they are mentioned in the Qur'an and the prophetic tradition." I made a point of toning down her contention a bit by saying you can't be a good Muslim, suggesting disbelievers in jinn were being lax rather than apostates. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I think I answers all your objections in my edit summaries. When you want to discuss the issue, please include my reasons and object to those. I do not intent to go forth and back. I furthermore have provided you kindly with several resources on for relevant guidlines. I am willing to discuss potential editing disagreement, but not to repeat myself again. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

(Actually I included your edit summaries above. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC))

Response to third opinion request:

It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions. Descriptions about what is an is not accepted orthodoxy in a religion as widespread and varied as Islam must be very carefully qualified with attribution and consideration to due weight. It appears to me (knowing very little) that Jinn being an "essential" feature of Islam is closer to a fringe view than a mainstream position, so in that sense I lean toward VenusFeuerFalle's positions. If that position is indeed fringe, that doesn't totally rule out including it, but it means the information must be carefully and conservatively presented, and probably doesn't belong in the lede. That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. If my input doesn't help reach a resolution here, I suggest raising this at WikiProject Islam where subject matter experts may be able to weigh in. Cheers - StereoFolic (talk) 23:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language

Thanks for the advise. I prioritize civil language and kind words. However, this specific user appears since about 2 years frequently after I edited an article, makes some rather disruptive edits, and then leaves the article. Some of these disruptions are basic formats such as using ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers. In the beginning I cleaned up after them and kindly reminded them to use the proper formation, did not stoppe after a year. I left some articles completely to them after constant edit warring about nothing without any sign of cooperation, and they left them in a worse state than before and then never touched them again. I hoped that direct speech might be a better way for communication. If this does not work either, I will completely give up on them. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle:

Was unaware I was edit warring with you! Do you have some links to these ... "disruptive edits" and "constant edit warring"?

I admit I have still sometimes used ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers, but infrequently. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Since this has nothing to do with the article, see personal talkpage VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Note

The Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmad al-Tayyib said: "It is necessary to believe in the existence of jinn, because they are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an". There are numerous references to jinn in the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad). According to Islamic belief, jinn are real creatures. Characteristics they share with human beings are intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong and between good and bad, but according to the Qur'an [55:14–15] their origin is different from that of man.

Al-Tahawi (d. 321/933) said in his celebrated work on the fundamentals of the Islamic creed: "He (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad) has been sent to all of the jinn and the entirety of humanity with truth, guidance, light, and illumination."

The Hanafi scholar Badr al-Din al-Shibli (d. 769/1368) composed a work of 140 chapters on this topic, entitled Ākām al-Marjān fi Aḥkām al-Jānn (Arabic: آكام المرجان في أحكام الجان), which was summarized by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505). In this work there is a chapter about the existence of jinn and disagreement about it (here or here). Badr al-Din al-Shibli said that al-Juwayni (Imam al-Haramayn) in his work al-Shamil fi Usul al-Din (The Compendium on the Principles of Religion) said: "Many philosophers, the majority of Qadariyya, and all heretics denied the existence of the shayatin (devils) and jinns.... Al-Baqillani said: Many Qadariyya affirm the existence of jinn in ancient times and deny their existence now... Imam al-Haramayn (i.e. al-Juwayni) said: ...(There is) a consensus of all scholars in the era of the Sahaba and Tabi'een on the existence of jinn and devils..."TheEagle107 (talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

(Notes and references)

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Mythology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Queso Misterioso (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Queso Misterioso (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Dispute resolution of deletions on belief in jinn and belief in Islam

The issue of deletions on Belief in jinn and belief in Islam by VenusFeuerFalle can be found at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Jinn_2 --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle, @Louis P. Boog WP:DRN discussion moderator seems to be waiting for further inputs from both of you.

Bookku (talk) 02:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Some observations

@Louis P. Boog Your input request @ WT:ISLAM was better at giving brief synopsis of dispute but that seem to be now archived. I suggest you update the link of the same at WP:DRN

@VenusFeuerFalle both of you may have some misunderstandings about content as of now but my perception is both of you together work further on this article to make it GA or even FA.

I would like to share some observations content improvements in the article, let me know if you are going for GA review. Bookku (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Although I hate being this type of person. Louis P. Boog usually enters editing an article after I did for a long time, and usually decreases the quality. This happened to several articles I edited, including Jahannam, Jannah, Islamic eschatology, Spirit possession and exorcism in Islam, Shaitan. Often not even the basic manual of style guides are paid attention to. For example, since 2022 the user uses ';' instead of '==' for sub-headers, so I need to constantly clean up. I told them multiple times about deconstructive edits, but ignores everything I say, sometimes trying to report me. I think there is enough reason to have bad faith here. Please keep an eye on them. THis user is not pushing a GA article, since none of the articles I left them, have ever achieved GA after disrupting them. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I am listing here users who edited this talk page previously and still active (Sourced from xtools) . If for more inputs or review either of you may wish to ping them. But if you ping then ping all of them.

• User:Ashmoo
• User:savvyjack23
• User:Primalchaos
• User:Iskandar323

Bookku (talk) 04:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank Bookku. Have updated link to WT:ISLAM. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ashmoo, @savvyjack23, @Primalchaos, @Iskandar323

Greetings users! As recent editors of the Jinn article, you may be interested in giving input on a dispute at the Dispute resolution noticeboard here, concerning edits in that article on the connection between belief in jinn and belief in Islam. Thank you. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Small note: In my search I found them among who edited this talk page Idk of the article page. Bookku (talk) 14:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)