Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template

Hi everyone

a) loving the idea
b) seen it first implemented (for the UK anyway) on Channel Tunnel Rail Link
c) Dannyboy3 has taken up the challenge at;

• Cherwell Valley Line
• Staines to Windsor & Eton Line
• Coventry to Nuneaton Line
• Leamington to Stratford Line
• Lymington Branch Line

d) thus i've had a go at Sheerness Line
e) Britmax has done the Fawley Branch Line on his userpage

so i was wondering if people bringing it accross from the German wikipedia could point out where we're goping wrong (becasue i don't spak a lot of German!), etc - I'm not happy with how the line looks, i think i need to use BS3 (or a higher number). Pickle 20:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, some thought later, and i think i've cracked the Sheerness Line --Pickle 21:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Made that work, and done two more Sheppey Light Railway and Ashford via Maidstone East Line Pickle 22:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting the hand of this - Bromley North Line Pickle 11:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line done, still having problems rendering how the Ashford layout should be represented. Pickle 13:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

And another closed line - Canterbury and Whitstable Railway Pickle 14:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Just done Kent Coast Line, but am having problems rendering the layout at the Dover end Pickle 18:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

For a few more elaborate examples of this template, have a look at Cologne-Frankfurt high-speed rail line, Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line and Niederelbebahn. --doco (☏) 22:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I like what has been done with the various German lines, but i think the problem at Dover and Ashford is different (or maybe I'm trying to be too detailed or concerned with historic track layouts), in ASCII art form, here is the rough layout i want to show (* = station)

|
* Priory
|
/\
/ * Harbour
/ \
--***---*--* Town, Marine, and Admiralty Pier

because I've already used the first column of the BS3 template, I've only got one column to play with to the right of the line.Pickle 10:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ashford is worse (i can sort of imagine a solution to the dover issue);

|
-\ /
---Ashford---
-/ \--
\
|

I've done the line that comes down form the top right (Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line), top left is Ashford via Maidstone East Line, the CTRL is the middle line and the SEML is below it (both going left to right), and Marshlink Line is in the bottom right. even when one works out how to show it (rotate so its vertical), but there would need to be 4 columns. Pickle 10:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, the template wasn't really designed for things like _that_, I guess. As the lines get more and more complex, either the level of detail has to be diminuished or the number of columns approaches infinity rather quickly. My best bet would be something like this:

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-tableTemplate:BS3Template:BS3Template:BS3Template:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BS3Template:BS3

|}
Quite a mess I admit, but the best I could think of... --doco (☏) 18:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks for the help everyone, Chriscf has done some work on the Dover area - see User:Chriscf/Kent Coast Line and with a little tweaking i think that is resolved. Ashford is going to prove difficult whatever happen and i'll have a play with --doco's example latter. Pickle 14:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I edited Trent Valley Line to have the template. Geoking66 05:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Blank ID parameters

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-tableTemplate:BS3

|} I've amended the BS2 and BS3 templates so that the first two (or three in the case of BS3) parameters are optional - they default to 'leer' (blank space) if omitted. {{BS3||STR||text}}, for example, will now give a straight between two spaces. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Brillant idea, that should save some time. Cheers. Dannyboy3 15:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Icon request

If anyone has SVG editing facilities, could they consider making an equivalent to TurmBHFo and TurmBHFu for large stations please? Required for Lichfield Trent Valley on Birmingham Cross-City Line. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Can we also have a more complete set of 90-degree curves for the blue lines, and a horizontal straight, please? That's uSTB2lf, uSTB2lg, uSTB2rg, and uHSTR. (Sorry to be demanding - I've just had a look at SVG editing, and can't make head or tail of it, or I'd do these myself.) Less pressing, but also useful, would be complete families based on STB1lfg, TurmHST (eTurmHST and TurmHST seem to have the wrong labels), tKRZ (covering blue and red lines), xABZlg(U), and STB3lg. Lastly, does anyone have any examples of the use of (a) the double-track icons like evGRENZE (b) ABZlgÜWBo? Many, many thanks. AlexTiefling 13:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• OK, I've just learned enough about SVG editing to produce uSTB2lf, uSTB2lg, uSTB2rg, and uHSTR myself. They've now all been uploaded to Commons, and the only English page I could find which needed them has had them added. I'm going to see what else I can get sorted out. AlexTiefling 13:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Addendum: The families based on TurmBHFo, TurmBHFu, and STB3lg (now called ABZ3lg) have now been created, with the exception of split-level stations with disused vertical metro lines. (If there's demand, I'll create them.) The series based on xABZlg(U) can wait - the premise of that entire track design seems to be changing over at the German site, although I don't speak enough German to figure it all out. (Does anyone know the full rationale behind the naming convention?) I'm leaving double track well alone for now - it's probably superfluous. As far as I can tell, ABZlgÜWB and KRZ_Arg are 'joke' entries to show how putting too much into one icon can be too much work. I can produce utKRZ and utUKRZ myself if needed, but any capital-T versions (with the tunnel running horizontally) are well beyond my skills, and must await the creation of tHSTR and a tSTRlg family at the least. The three missing members of the STB1lfg family, and the eight possible part-disused versions of each of them, could be put together if needed, but at the moment I'm skeptical of their usefulness. Comments? AlexTiefling 16:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Bridge

Are there icons where you culd show the start and end of a bridge, instead of the whole thing? Simply south 12:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Subways

For interactions with the Tube, it appears that there are some subway (ie blue) icons missing. See the South Eastern Main Line and the interaction around New Cross with the East London Line. Pickle 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• Fixed - see above. AlexTiefling 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Annoying spaces - a solution

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-tableTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BS

|}

I'm sure I am not the only one who find it annoying that this otherwise excellent set of templates leaves a gap between each line section icon, as illustrated in the upper box on the right (taken from Channel Tunnel Rail Link. So, I worked out what needs to be changed to prevent this, and there turned out to be two things. The first is the use of {{prettytable-R}} (which is used in the header for the "main" table); the second is the use of an image size of 20px. Increaseing the image size to 30px and changing the table formatting info to the following:

cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="float:right; border-collapse:collapse; border:solid 1px #AAAAAA;"

... results in a table like the one on the lower right. No gaps :-)

Therefore, I propose that all the relevant templates have the image size increased to 30px, and that a new template (say Template:BS-start) be created with the revised formatting info, and used instead of {{prettytable-R}}.

What do people think? Tompw (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-table

File:BSicon KBFa.svg		London St Pancras
		Midland Main Line
File:BSicon ABZld.svg		North London Line
		East Coast Main Line

|}

I don't get gaps - I presume most people don't or it would have been designed out in the German version. What browser and skin do you use? – Tivedshambo (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

IE7, default skin. Probably what 90% of visitors use. Given the choice between a system that works for some people and a sytem that works for everyone, I thinl the latter is better. Tompw (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't get gaps either here or on the German version. Also, 30px blows up the infobox far too much, IMO. Maybe the people on de: have an idea about this (there's some quirks when porting templates between wikipedias, such as lacking CSS classes), I'll ask for someone knowledgeable from there to have a look at this. doco (☏) 01:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done some experimenting and I get gaps if I increase text size above normal (View -> Text Size in IE6). I agree that any system should work for all browsers, settings etc, but if we expand the infobox too much we run the risk of having articles which are dwarfed by the adjacent route map. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I get gaps when I view it (IE7 default) but I don't really mind the gaps. It makes it easier to tell the difference between each row, though I guess that's not that hard. I don't like the look of making it 30px at all, its just too big. Now I'm used to this style I'm not sure if it'd look good without gaps, but that's me. --Simmo676 12:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the gaps are caused by Prettytable-R, which is slightly different in different versions of Wikipedia. The Dutch have decided not to use this template for railway strips. Instead they created Prettytable-SP, which does not display this problem. HandigeHarry 15:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

So the Dutch also came up with the idea of using a different template for the table formating. With regards to size... look at the two boxes on the right. The lower one is very slightly wider, and a bit taller. I don't think tweaking the formatting will result in articles being "dwarfed by the adjacent route map" any more than currently. Tompw (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

If the Dutch use a different one that gets rid of the gap, I'd prefer that than the one with huge icons. It may be only slightly wider but they don't look particularly good compared to the normal ones. Remember also that your example isn't very wide to begin with, whereas things like the Tees Valley Line, Birmingham Cross-City Line, Durham Coast Line, etc, are already significantly wider and taller, and so using even bigger icons would make it a lot bigger, and as was said, dwarf the rest of the article.--Simmo676 15:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit its not a problem for me. Some of the edits i have been doing are some giant templates and with the two comment columns I'm struggling to keep the table narrow enough. Pickle 19:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-tableTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BS

|}

[Unindent] Fair comments about the size. Thanks for pointing me in the way of the Dutch example. The table on the right uses nl:Template:Prettytable-SP, with the sole modification of not having a fixed width:

class="toccolours" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" rules="all" style="float:right; clear:right; margin:0 0 1em 1em; empty-cells:show; border-style:solid; border-width:1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; "

It has no gaps, but retains the small size. Would anyone object to making this the standard for the route-maps? Tompw (talk) 12:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If it is satisfactory to the Dutch, it must be satisfactory to anyone. :)

Or, more seriously, preferences are personal, not national. There is no reason to have a different appearance in differnt languages. HandigeHarry 13:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, no one has objected, so I'ce created {{Railway line header}} |(sed the final example on the right) and shall update things accordingly.

Looks very good, it also has fixed the broken line issue I had in Firefox when using comments in the station field. Thanks a lot! doco (☏) 13:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Template:BS-headerTemplate:BS-tableTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BSTemplate:BS

|}

Just tried it on Glasgow Central Railway. Before trying I had IE6 set at text size smaller (and had no gaps). Set the text to normal and then changed the template and viewed on preview. Lost the gaps, but also lost the differentiation between the text sizes in the table. As a result I did not save the changes. --Stewart 13:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The difference in text size is still there, it's just a smaller difference. (If we'd gone for slightly larger icons, this wouldn't be an issue). Tompw (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we request new symbols

I need a TurmBHFo (High/Low level station) where one of the lines is closed variant. Otherwise I have to get creative to do Builth Road on the Heart of Wales Line page.Is there a procedure for this? Graldensblud 00:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have added a few new symbols to cope with junction arrangements that I was needing, but not one for the above situation.. --Stewart 10:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

What editor did you use - did you just copy the existing and paint pucket/rotate etc? Cos illustrator/photoshop won't handle the SVGs, so I guess I need to explore some freeware - care to recommend? 161.73.37.81 14:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I saved an existing SVG file and then editted manually using an html (text) editor. Used a bit of trial and error and the result if there for you to see - (Image:BSicon exHSTR.svg; Image:BSicon exABZ3lg.svg; Image:BSicon ABZ3lg.svg; Image:BSicon exABZ3rg.svg and Image:BSicon ABZ3rg.svg). One of the files claimed that the original was created using CORELDraw. To date I have not uploaded this to wikipedia commons - would someone who understands the means of linking between Commons and this Wikipedia either advise or help. --Stewart 17:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert but the idea is you upload the file to the commons and then link like a normal image link (you can't upload fair use and some other types to commons). I would be very wary of the Corel file and the copyright hawks out there (again not my area of expertice). Pickle 19:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've now added a family of icons for part-closed high and low level stations. Their names follow the standard format, and the station itself is shown as open unless both lines are closed. I hope the icon you (Graldensblud) need is in among them. I've also produced a family of Metro/Surface interchange icons on the same model, but I wasn't too sure about what their systematic names should be. Currently they're called uoTurm... for cases where the metro is on top, and uuTurm... for cases where the metro is underneath. If we need split-level station icons where the station itself is closed but one line is open, I'm not sure how those would be named either. Anyone understand the naming system better? AlexTiefling 14:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Addendum: Let's not forget that TurmHST breaks the name and style at present. AlexTiefling 15:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your work ;) Pickle 15:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• I've added a bunch more, and also renamed the Metro/surface stations to follow the correct naming convention. I haven't yet got a complete set of interchanges where the Metro is the vertical line, but I can add these if there's the demand. I've updated the main index to show the new additions. AlexTiefling 16:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• This may be outside the scope of what the template is intended for, for long and remote single line routes it would be useful to have an icon that could represent a crossing loop, perhaps a half circle/or split line, using BS1/3 columns you could also represent closed stations that have become loops. A minor freight station could be used in lieu of a specific loop icon

Image requests

1. File:BSicon xABZdl.svg, but with the pale red line removed... I think it would be called ABZdgr. (This is for Wessex Main Line). The mirror image would be good for completeness.
   • Done - the names are ABZlr, ABZrl, ABZgf and ABZfg, and exist in normal, e, x, and ex versions. AlexTiefling 19 :47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
     • File:BSicon ABZrl.svg, , File:BSicon ABZfg.svg, File:BSicon ABZgf.svg... Thanks :-) Tompw (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
2. File:BSicon ABZ3lg.svg and File:BSicon ABZ3lg.svg, but with the curve gonig up instead of down. (This is for completenessChannel Tunnel Rail Link)

• Done. The new files have names beginning ABZ3, and match the STRxx class of curves. AlexTiefling 14:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Can people upload any new images to Commons, not WP:en, so they can be placed in Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions? (Those two haven't been placed)

Tompw (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Great work ... but now my current version of "spoorstrip" (3.3) does not recognise the new symbols, so I have to edit the text file manually! Please can you advise HandigeHarry, so that he can revise the editor program. Sheepcot 21:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on it! And you can always add your own symbols to the Spoorstrip catalog. Just convert the symbols to BMP. HandigeHarry 06:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• Could we have a symbol similar to the S-Bhan interchange but with the National Rail logo on it? - I think it would work better here (it's a map of a metro line). Likewise, stations with the Underground logo may be useful for making London Commuter maps. JameiLei 21:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• 'loving the template so far, one of the rare infoboxes I like as I'm not an infobox lover (the possibility of transforming this infobox into a table would be great). I don't quite understand the depreciation issue yet as I've created a few template using Wikipedia:Railway line template#Catalog of pictograms as a reference, nevermind. I'm however confused with and File:BSicon SBHF1.svg where caracteristics seem to have been swapped, I'd assume the stop with the red circle would mean an interchange as it possesses the station style red circle... To continue on this regional rail scheme, would it be possible to created station icons with the 'M' for metro? Maybe one with 'R' for regional? Would it also be possible to expand the concept of this template and have most of the lines in blue so that underground/subways and metros can be catered for too? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 10:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

We already have , , and icons for major, minor, subway(=metro) and freight-only stations, so I don't see the need for a Regional or metro icon. (For blue lines, see section below) Tompw (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not seeing any icons. Do you mean and co? I was thinking in the lines of not the SBahn logo but another country's arbitrary logo, like suggested above the British Rail arrows, or as I suggested, the 'M' for the Parisian underground... The SBahn logo doesn't seem so appropriate for an interchange station with the Rouen Tramway (see Template:Ligne Paris-Le Havre diagram). Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

(Image links corrected) I see the "S" in the symbol stood for "S-Bahn" = "Stadtschnellbahn", or "fast city train"... which is to say, a metro or commuter type line (e.g. Merseyrail). (I thought it stood for "subway" - e.g., the Underground). *thinks*. I suggest a generic "M-in-a-circle" for general metro lines (such as Paris'), and also the Underground roundel for use on LUL matters. However, I don't think we should have a seperate icon for "regional". Tompw (talk) 23:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Icon generator

See [1] ... it should be easy enough to use. You need to have an SVG-enabled brower in order to view the finished product (Adobe do a free plugin). I plan to add support for "blue" lines. Let me know of any problems/querries at my talk page. Tompw (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The generator now has support for blue lines (and pale blue) in any combination with the red/pale red. Let me know if there's any problems or extra features wanted.

I've had a stab at it, good little applet there. I created File:BSicon STRM.svg and File:BSicon uHSTR.svg, I arbitrarily added M for metro and kept the original naming scheme. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It now does bridges too. (Don't forget to add icons to the list.) :-) Tompw (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

If it's ok with you, I'll generate a few icons with blue lines, upload them and complete the table. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 16:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

And don't forget to tell me, so I can add them to Spoorstrip.exe. HandigeHarry 17:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

software

I played with "Spoorstrip" over the weekend and i was asked to give some feedback here;

1) It adds extra code, due to 3 comments line, the answer is something like if the box isn't filled it isn't necessary
2) it hasn't taken into account of the fact that if you leave a column blank (instead of writing leer)
3) i was "coding" in BS3 but its very hard to add new rows, etc (i did it manually) as it didn't seam to like this
4) some of the symbols didn't match up - i think it was a subway line with a bridge over a mainline
5) there is no ability to scroll down the page so i had to cut and past out after every 30 or so rows
6) i presume the ability to overlay two symbols was some type of rowspan, because while it worked on screen (a great idea!), en wikipedia wouldn't display it, I'm not sure what i did wrong
7) the constant tabbing between tabs was a bit annoying - some symbols common to all tabs are used regularly while others are quite rare

but fundamentally, as someone who hasn't a club about programming, great work in making it, etc i hope these comments are useful Pickle 19:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

1) Yes, it adds several |||||}} at the end of each line if there are no comments. Does it matter?

2) I do not understand this. The Empty icon is not in a tab, it has a separate button on top.

3) To add new rows, hit Ctrl Insert.

4) This may be due to uncareful design of the icons. What icons do you mean?

5) You can scroll with the arrow keys and (ten lines at once) with Page Up and Page Down.

6) Special templates exist to allow this. I'm afraid they are not available in the English Wikipedia. Furthermore, it doesn't work too well with IE6 (only one of the overlain icons is shown). I can copy the templates from the Dutch Wiki, may be tomorrow.

7) Yes, I agree. I have been playing a lot with the tabs, but I haven't found the final answer yet. However, you can put your favourite icons in a separate tab. Just rename station_BHF.bmp and line_STR.bmp to mytab_BHF.bmp and mytab_STR.bmp. Do not change the letters after the underscore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HandigeHarry (talk • contribs) 22:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC). Oops: my name: HandigeHarry 22:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

2) see Wikipedia talk:Railway line template#Blank ID parameters, problem went away when i started using leer again

3) ;) thanks

4) i think it was UKRZu but i failed to not it down

5) i couldn't use arrow keys within a box

6) it's worth a go, thanks ;)

Pickle 22:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

5) yes that's still a problem. I think I'd better not use the horizontal arrow keys to move to the next comment. I'm thinking of an intuitive solution.

6) I created templates BS-2afb, BS2-2afb and BS3-2afb, so this should work now, if there are no more than three icons in a row. HandigeHarry 07:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

2) I see that the English templates have made 'leer' optional. Very good! My program does produce 'leer' in its output, so it is compatible with the templates in other languages, which require 'leer'. On input, any unrecognised icon defaults to leer, including a missing icon, so I don't see what the problem is.

I think the latest version (3.1) of the program can be customised so that there is no 'leer' in its output. However, my new added templates BS-2afb etc, still require 'leer'. HandigeHarry 08:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, its not a problem as such but some editors like tidy code! Pickle 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

5) In the new version you use Arrow to move within a field and Shift Arrow to move from field to field.

2) I uploaded a file with the name BSicon .svg, which equals BSicon leer.svg. From now on the word leer is optional in all languages. No more need to modify the templates. HandigeHarry 14:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Alt text

Shouldn't each of these images have some meaningful alt text ("junction", "terminus") etc? Andy Mabbett 20:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And title, for use as a tool-tip in conforming browsers. Andy Mabbett 17:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : Changing from BS to BS2 and BS3

Is there a way of getting the software to change a BS template into a BS3 template by "blanking" or "emptying" the relevant parts of the map?? I am currently having to manually change the templates. Sheepcot 19:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You can type Ctrl+3 on any line, and it changes to three icons in a row. You can move the icons left and right within the line by typing Ctrl+Arrow.

You can also do this in several consecutive lines at once, if you select the lines first by dragging the mouse over them.

Actually, its worse than that. When I edit the "source" data, to get it to a BS3 template from a BS template, I have to add the "LEER" icon. But for some reason, Spoorstrip is reinterpreting this, and changing to the simplest version, which means that it changes it from a BS3 back to a BS template!! Sheepcot 20:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not a bug, it's a feature :) When you type BS3|leer|anything|leer it is changed into BS|anything. This displayes just the same. If you enter anything else instead of 'leer', BS3 will remain intact.

Besides, the word 'leer' is never output, it is removed. This also displays just the same.

HandigeHarry 16:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : SBRÜCKE etc.

I have noticed that Spoorstrip replaces the 'Ü' character with an 'š' character (English Version), which means that when it is copied into WP that it is not recognised, and so has to be changed manually. Sheepcot 19:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm, I never ran into that. I'll see if I can do something about that. Actually, I am not really grateful to the Germans for using German names. HandigeHarry 16:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just tested in in the English WP, and everything went fine. Perhaps it's caused by your computer's settings, but of course this does not mean that the program is not to blame. However, I do have problems with some other non-ASCII characters, and that should be fixed too. HandigeHarry 16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : exHSTR

This appears as a blank cell rather than a disused horizontal section of track. What I mean is that it correctly puts the right text in the source (so WP sees it right), but the program displays it as a blank cell. By the way, do I get paid for de-bugging software! Sheepcot 20:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the file line_exHSTR.bmp is damaged. What is it? It should be a pink horizontal line. If you like you can edit the file yourself.

Well, I'll be the one who debugs the software, and I do net get paid. But I am very grateful for your bug reports. HandigeHarry 16:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

When should tunnels be shown?

At Great Western Main Line there are two route maps... the only tunnel shown on the first is Box Tunnel (2,939m / 1 mile 1452 yards), while the second shows tunnels as short as 49 yards. I feel the latter is clearly too small to be included, but I was wondering what the cut off point should be. I personally feel that any tunnel under 1km / 1,000 yards shouldn't be shown... or maybe we should go for 500m/yards. (Also, any tunnel with a WP article of its own should be shown, regardless of length). What do people think? Tompw (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference between a short tunnel on the GWR mainline, and one on a local branch, or section, so it's a matter of perspective. Also, some short tunnels may be significant, for one reason or another (site of accident, notable architecture, early date, construction technique, etc.) In this case, the South Devon tunnels are tourist attraction in their own right, though that map may belong on a separate article about that section of the line. Andy Mabbett 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The difference is (generally) between what you show for a simple table for a main line (see WCML and ECML), thus on that stage/scale the Box tunnel is probably worth showing. But when you get down to really detailed line, either small branches or something like the Watford DC Line that kind of detail is worth showing. Personally, on bridges, i show motorways and major dual carriageways but not every little road - again the caveat about notability comes in, then it is worth mentioning. I've had the same issue with rivers/canals on the Trent Valley Line IIRC.Pickle 19:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the kind of question that I love. It is complex to answer, and nobody will ever be happy with the answer. What to do? Tunnels/Bridges/Viaducts etc. I like the idea of "notability", which means that all recognised/important structures are included. So thats solved part of the question. As for guidance on length, I would use a "proportion" rule. By this I mean that if the map cover say "20 km" of railway, then any structure (Bridge/Tunnel) should be at least 1% of this total. So for a 20km railway, then anything longer than 200m should be included, but anything less excluded, unless it meets the "notability" rule (say major roads/rivers etc.). If we are talking about a 200km railway then this would mean that anything less than 2km would be excluded, which is interesting, as it would rule out box tunnel, were it not for the notability rule. Similarly, Brunels bridge over the Thames at Maidenhead, and Hanwell Viaduct (both listed structures) would fall foul of the 1% rule. I guess its a question of "what is right" .... that is very subjective. Sheepcot 20:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm also interested in questions like these. My rule of thumb has been that on simple long-distance maps, no tunnels or bridges are relevant. On more detailed maps like the Watford DC Line or the Thameslink map I'm working on now, I think every named tunnel and junction should go in if possible. Road and river bridges, though, are so common that only reasonably notable ones should ever be mentioned. AlexTiefling 09:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Station links

Slightly off topic, but I've got so fed up of repeatedly typing in a station name twice in links (e.g. [[Wolverhampton railway station|Wolverhampton]]) that I've created a template to do it. Use {{stnlnk|Wolverhampton}} and it will expand the same way. Note that this only works for station articles which are named "xxx railway station". – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

New icons

ABZa is probably an error
ABZe exABZa exABZe are fine
HSTRM is not needed, use uHSTR
STRM is not needed, use uSTR
STRMlf STRMlg STRMrf STRMrg are not needed, use uSTRlf etc.

HandigeHarry 17:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I create the M series because I believed didn't exist. the project page Catalog of pictograms is missing them which I why I created them. Please complete the documentation so no more duplicates get created. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 18:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

See Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions (and the related subcategories) for the entire set of icons.

As for ABZa - I'm not sure what's wrong with this one. It seems to display ok (for me at least) at 20x20, and the source file seems fine, but it doesn't display at full size in the image description page. I've re-uploaded it, then recreated it and uploaded that as well, without success. Any ideas anyone? – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

ABZa seems to work now. Possibly a cache needed purging somewhere? – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions is not guaranteed to be complete. I prefer [2]. However, this has another drawback: it contains many icons which have been created by the Germans for purposes of testing, and which are not intended to be used. Why their use is banned I do not know. You also find a very complete catalog in Spoorstrip.exe, and I attempt to keep it up-to-date. HandigeHarry 19:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I do my coding by hand. I have nothing against spoorstrip - I just haven't got round to downloading it yet. – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The blue icons are in Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions/set blue. HandigeHarry 19:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to show metro icons on the main page, can we use the u-coded, rather than M-coded, ones, please? The names are complicated enough already. (HandigeHarry: Can you do anything with my queries (in English, sadly) over on the German talk page, please? I'm doing my best to understand.) AlexTiefling 00:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I already do railway discussions in I don't know how many languages. Some time ago I translated all discussions on the French discussion page into English (a German had asked for it). Unfortunately the Norwegians are interested too, and I am unfamiliar with their language. HandigeHarry 11:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've already pointed out thazt conversations on this page led me to believe that the blue lined icons did not exist. The documentation on this project page being incomplete I created the iconsq I believed were missing. Don't ask me to use something that isn't linked! If you guys have the icons stashed somewhere, feel free to add them yourselves using pages you guys no about that aren't documented. All the infoboxes I made were created using the doc present on Wikipedia:Railway line template, if items are missing there, please do not blame me for thinking they didn't exist 'ey! ;) Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 09:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Obsolete icons

Tivedshambo asked for a list of obsolete icons. Well here it is. The order is new|old. Lower case prefixes are omitted.

ABZlf|ABKlf
ABZlf|STB1lf
ABZrg|STB1rg
ABZlg|STB1lg
ABZrf|STB1rf
ABZdf|STBdf
ABZdg|STBdg
STRlg|STB2lf
STRlf|STB2lg
STRrf|STB2rg
STRrg|STB2rf
2SBHF|2SHBF
SBHFl|SHBFl
SBHFr|SHBFr
uTurmBHFo|uoTurmBHFo
UTurmBHFu|uoTurmBHFu
UTurmBHFo|uuTurmBHFo
uTurmBHFu|uuTurmBHFu
eUTurmBHFu|eUUTurmBHFu
utENDEa|utWENDEa
utENDEe|utWENDEe
ueSTR|uexSTR
ABZ3lg|STB3lg
ABZ3lf|STB3lf
ABZ3rg|STB3rg
ABZ3rf|STB3rf
ABZdll|ABZdl1
ABZdrr|ABZdr1
HandigeHarry 21:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Another new icon please

Been looking at the Northern City Line and the large underground section has an interchange station with the tub, there is thus a missing icon for an interchange station between a underground rail line and tube. Pickle 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

• What's wrong with tSBHF1? AlexTiefling 20:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Use for canal routes

Would anybody be interested in adapting and extending this set of icons, for use in describing canal routes (I'm thinking particularly of those in the UK). Andy Mabbett 19:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The only extra icons I think you'd need would be for locks (up/down) and lock flights... anything else? Tompw (talk) 22:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Possibly tow-paths (none, one side, other side, both sides); junctions, moorings, winding holes, wharves, boatyards. We'd really need to ask a canal project group, and perhaps run a pilot on one route. Andy Mabbett 22:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

+Junctions with rivers, reservoirs Andy Mabbett 20:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Bridges with railways, roads, watercourses; tunnels; aqueducts... AlexTiefling 13:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

New icons

I attempted to create my first SVG files. They are intended for a tube line within a railway. Their names begin with the letters 'bub'. After uploadng I find that the result is disappointing, so I will not employ the icons yet. I invite anyone to improve them. HandigeHarry 20:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

* I think it might be better to establish a policy of using only the red icons for lines with mixed use, and to make sure a proper set of junction icons for red-blue exists. Having a third (fifth?) type of line increases the complexity too much. AlexTiefling 13:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Creating

Can anyone create their own pics\icons? Simply south 20:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, with suitable software, for example [3]. However, first check [4] to see whether your icon exists, and try to keep the names consistent.

It is even possible with Notepad. HandigeHarry 10:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip: How do I get off the Glasgow metro?

I have just downloaded the spoorstrip program - Thanks Harry!. An excellent idea in principal, but I am having a problem at the moment... Whenever I run it, regardless of language or wiki selected, it loads data from a wikipage about the Glasgow metro! How do I get it to pick up the page I want to work on, and how do I save the results so I can continue later?

I've read through the info that came with it, but can't quite see what to do. regards, Lynbarn 12:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There may also be another use for this template/program - it could be used at a larger scale, for diagraming individual station layouts, especially if the width restriction could be lifted (the template only works to 3-wide, spoorstrip works up to 5) - it just needs a few symbols for station buildings, platforms, goods sheds, signal boxes etc. Just an idea, regards, Lynbarn 13:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• My feeling is that at the finest level of detail, there's too much variety for it to be worthwhile using the template. For example, Waterloo station (surface rail only) has more than 20 platforms in its main section, and four more at Waterloo East, with a huge variety of signalling and switching apparatus in the station throat. Even a relatively simple station like Cambridge railway station gets highly complex at this level, and places such as Euston or Birmingham New Street would be phenomenal. AlexTiefling 13:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The Glasgow code serves as an example for novice users. Hit Delete and it is gone.

To copy code from a Wiki page: Load the Wiki page and click Edit This page. Click in the source code. Hit Ctrl A and Ctrl C. Now go to Spoorstrip and hit Ctrl V.

After editing, you can copy the code back in the same way.

There is no particular way (not yet) to save the results temporarily. You can copy the code to Notepad and save it as a TXT file.

Template width: All national Wikis are different :(. You can create the templates BS4, BS5 on your English Wikipedia, if you need them. Just copy from BS3 and modify as needed.

If you want to picture an entire station layout, you don't only need wider BS templates, but also more icons. Those icons must be created on Wikipedia Commons with the prefix BSicon. The also must be created as BMP files in Spoorstrip. You can do both yourself. Anyhow, whenever I update Spoorstrip, I include all new icons which I found on Commons. HandigeHarry 16:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

I've asked this question on the German page, but they (perhaps sensibly) ignore questions in English. Can anyone explain, in reasonable detail, what the naming conventions for the icons - especially junction icons - is? In creating new icons like the forks, I've had to make it up as I've gone along, and this has not always been easy. The German users seem to have some kind of approval process, which has led to the motorway-bridge icon being classed as 'experimental' even though it's used well and successfully on the English pages. Personally, I feel that is too restrictive - but I'm interested to know what others think. AlexTiefling 14:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The naming conventions are originally German. Some letters are:

STR = Strecke, line

BHF = Bahnhof, station (not to be confused with HBf - Hauptbahnhof)

BRÜCKE - Bridge. That Umlaut (spots over the letter U) might be a nuisance.

KRZ - Kreuz, crossing

Turm - Tower, a two level station

ABZ - Abzweig, branch

Prefixes are used for disused lines (e and x), tube lines (u), double lines (v and d), tunnels (t). I recently introduced the prefix 'bub' for a tube line within two railway lines.

Postfixes:

a - Anfang, beginning

e - Ende, end

l - links, left

r - rechts, right

Since the strip must be read from the top down, you may find that l and r are used the wrong way around.

f - fahrtrichtung, from the top down

g - gegenrichting, from down to top

o - oben, on top

u - unter, bottom

HandigeHarry 16:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'd figured all that, except the bit about reading the template from the top down (!) - but I can't work out how the names of the many junctions (not made by me) are arrived at. AlexTiefling 16:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding coordinates and microformats

I recently added a list of actions and their coordinates to Digbeth Branch Canal; which also uses the hCard Microformat. I would like to investigate the possibility of adding an extra column, for coordinates, to this template, together with the necessary HTML classes for hCard, but my knowledge of template syntax is limited,. Would anyone be interested in working with me?

I would envisage that, for example,

{{BS2||BHF|'''[[Hamstead railway station|Hamstead]]'''}}

would become:

{{BS2||BHF|'''[[Hamstead railway station|Hamstead]]'''|{{coord|52.530|-1.928}}}}

Andy Mabbett 00:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to plaster co-ordinates all over every article? Simply link to the article, and ensure the co-ordinates are listed there if anyone wants them. Otherwise the next idea will be to have a column linking to the Network Rail departure boards, a column linking to RailsAroundBirmingham or similar, and what started as a simple strip map on the side ends up filling the screen. – Tivedshambo (talk) 06:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Hang on a minute. The Digbeth Branch Canal is an article on CANALS, not RAILWAYS. If the "canals" people want to develop a version of the map for their use, then fine, but to try and integrate it with the railways map is madness. I already think that the map if being used beyond its purpose to draw out "complex" junctions, when that was not its original purpose. Sheepcot 07:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I used the Digbeth article by way of an example of layout. There are no ""canals" people here, and no "railway" people, We're all Wikipedia editors and we're all supposed to be working collaboratively. Don't be so parochial. Andy Mabbett 08:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

No it's not "necessary" to "plaster co-ordinates all over every article". Where did I say it was? I said I want to look into the possibility of making it an option to do so. Your slippery slope argument is fatuous. Andy Mabbett 08:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Easy now Pigsonthewing, Sheepcot was simply pointing out that what you are proposing is the use of a template for what it was not created and can caue problem on the sheer basis that it was specifically designed for railways on all its intricacies. You should maybe cool down and avoid commenting on Sheepcot by judging his/her response to you. Cheers, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 08:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I can make no sense of your comment; and once again your tone is unacceptable.Andy Mabbett 08:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

You're out of line Pigsonthewing and your response to User:Sheepcot was unacceptable and quite brutal. If you cannot accept the reply of others don't ask for commenting. Using the railway template for canals, road or other linear arrangement is a good idea but you must understand why the template was created in the first place and accept Sheepcot's comment pointing out the fact that this template was designed for a specific use. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 08:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Andy Mabbett your tone and langauge is unacceptable, and has no place on Wikipedia. If we need co-ordinates for locations (do we?), then perhaps the best place for them is either a separate table, or on a separate page for each location. As an example, a station (in general) has a page all of its own, so it would be logical to have its co-ordinate on that page. As has been stated to you (repeatedly) the strip maps were developed for railways. If others wish to use it as a basis for roads or canals then great, but "never the twain shall meet". As others have said, the strip maps are tending to get over-complicated, and it was never the intention to try and replicate the "Quail Maps". Sheepcot 09:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"your tone and language is unacceptable" Eh? What on Earth are you on about? "As has been stated to you (repeatedly) the strip maps were developed for railways". Yes. And, as I've said, I used the Digbeth article by way of an example of layout; I want to look at the possibility of including the coordinates of railway features. The issue of adding canal graphics for for use with the unchanged template, is being discussed, quite reasonably, elsewhere. Andy Mabbett 09:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! If you all take the time to read through some of these comments, I think you will see a degree of inflexibility on all sides. Andy's original question was quite valid and reasonable, and I have tried to answer it positively below - if you can add to that in the true spirit of Wiki, then please do. Otherwise, perhaps least said, soonest mended. Regards, Lynbarn 09:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank your your calm intervention; though I'm not sure how I can be accused of inflexibility; since all I'm asking is to be able to investigate the possibility of us being more flexible. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I think what you(we) need to find out here is how to embed a call to a template within another template, assuming such a thing is possible witin wikimedia. It may be that some form of escape code is required around the brackets of the inner template, to force the outer template to interpret them correctly. I'm not familiar with this area either, but there will be an example of this somewhere - If I find it, I'll let you know!

In BS2 (and BS3), there is, after the km option, two notes fields, and I'm sure it would be possible, should you want, to use one of these to display the co-ordinates. Regards, Lynbarn 09:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I know templates can call other templates. I tried adding a {{coord}}, for Hamstead, to a railway map at User:Pigsonthewing/scratchpad5, but that didn't work - please feel free to fix it if you can see where I went wrong. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Given the length of the coordinates from the template, I think displaying them inside the main template for railways and stations would result in it looking too messy. For the larger templates relating to lines, adding coordinates to them would make them even bigger and messier. Also given that when viewing the template, adding coordinates to it would not benefit most readers, and would hinder the easy-to-read understand of it. Listing them in a separate table like in the canals article example may be a better idea.

However, given that the template may be used for things other than railways (which is what this seems to be about), if the template could be modified without affecting the look it has so far so that canals could have those coordinates added, that'd be fine too. I think Lynbarn's suggestion of just using one of the two notes fields would be best though. --Simmo676 10:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Simmo's remark above. Co-ordinates are liable to clutter a route template excessively, and are not easily read by most users. I do not see the problem with simply recording the co-ordinates of stations and notable features in the articles dedicated to those locations, rather than in the articles for the lines which pass them. And yes, to pick up Lynbarn's point - you can't fight in the war room! AlexTiefling 11:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"Co-ordinates are liable to clutter a route template excessively" Until we have chance to see how they appear, and in what context this might optionally be used, you can't know that. Listing the relevant coordinates for a line on one page, and using the Geo microformat to do so, will allow people to download them to, say, a GPS unit, or plot them on Google Earth, in one go. Also, not all of the points listed on route maps have corresponding articles. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"given that the template may be used for things other than railways (which is what this seems to be about)" - No. It's about adding the coordinates of railway features. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

My final word on this issue. I have recently started to use the strip maps. I started out by modifying a couple, and have now started to create them. I shall not be adding coordinate data to any map that I produce, and if I see them on any maps, then I shall cease to contribute to this part of the project. The maps are getting to complex as they are, and do not need this additional information. I will give one concession (I am feeling generous today). The maps were intended to fit on the page related to a particular line. If the maps are going to start to expand, then fine, but they will no longer fit sensibly on an article page, and will need to have separate page (stub under the main article). But if we go down this route, then lets agree what data to put on the maps. Just as an aside, the Railway Track Diagrams (Quail Maps) do NOT contain this level of information, despite the fact that they show a greater level of detail that railway folk are interested in. I know of no person who is involved with railways that has any need for coordinates of any kind (apart from ordance survey reference, which is better in my view). Hence I believe the information you wish to add to the maps to be more for your own interest rather than that the type of people that would use it or refer to it. Sheepcot 12:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I was going to make a start on creating some strip maps for lines that do not have them, but I have decided to leave it. Until there is some finality in this discussion, it seems pointless. It is amazing ... all it takes is one rogue editor to cause everything to come to a crashing halt. Sheepcot 20:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

BSe version of BS2

Template:BSe gives me gray italic text. How do I get that effect for a BS2 map? --Tagishsimon (talk)

I think you'd have to either put the grey style manually into the notes parameter (see the coding for BSe for the style code) or produce a new template, BS2e, based on BS2 and BSe. I can have a go at this if you think it's required. – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact, BS2e exists on the German Wikipedia. But you can also use font tags and double quotes. HandigeHarry 17:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Complex tunnels

Is there a way to show complex underground routes (junctions, curves etc)? For example, the Wirral Line features an underground spur which travels in a circle (the "Liverpool Loop"). I've coloured it blue for now, but since solid blue indicates trams and light rail rather than underground heavy rail, is there a better way to show this sort of route? Laïka 19:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I always thought that blue was intended for tube lines and S for trams. HandigeHarry 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)