Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks

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There's no consensus for this site policy

See User:Dtobias/Why BADSITES is bad policy for some good reasoning, and User talk:Dtobias/Why BADSITES is bad policy for almost a dozen editors who oppose this policy. -- Kendrick7^talk 23:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me add that this policy is completely unenforcable. There's no list anywhere of what sites can and can't be linked to, and there would need to be consensus to come up with such a list. This fails WP:CREEP. -- Kendrick7^talk 23:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• On another note, GT's version is pretty good. --MichaelLinnear 23:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This should be page specific. It's still difficult to know whether a given page is giving personal information on a wikipedian (i.e. five minutes ago I didn't know User:MichaelLinnear was a wikipedian), but to say an entire site/domain can't be linked to is fairly onerous. If I post a site, and someone tells me it contains attack pages, and I ask them for a link to such pages, they can't give it to me without violating the policy. Per User:Dtobias it's like something from Alice in Wonderland. -- Kendrick7^talk 00:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, GT's wording is one acceptable versions of the common consensus. Those who insist on the non-consensus "sites" verbiage will still revert war over it. I really like their edit summaries. One of the sites supporters reverts to the "sites" verbiage, then someone else removes it. Another "sites" supporter reverts that and says in the summary "don't start that again", as if that side of the argument didn't spark the latest revert-go-round. SchmuckyTheCat 00:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That's really my fault; SlimVirgin and I keep running into each other at the strangest places. She just gotten the pleasure of saying "oh, no, not you again" first lately. Small small world. -- Kendrick7^talk 00:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

How odd, I never saw you edit this policy recently...looks like you're the one stalking her edits. That can be stopped, you know.--MONGO 04:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

It probably has something to do with Dtobias bringing up this issue on Kendrick's talk page [1]. You should apologize for your stalking accusation, but I'm not holding my breath. Frise 10:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks like I'm not the only person who isn't clueless.[2]--MONGO 10:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Yeah. That's evidence. Frise 10:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure...the editor who left that comment is also one of those constantly attacked by the cowards on WR...so naturally, you'd find his comments to be inaccurate.--MONGO 10:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the page for 2 weeks. That should give ample time to determine what the consensus actaully is. Revert warring does not lead to consensus. If you settle on a good version before then, request unprotection at WP:RFPP and/or contact me. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'd like to get a reply from the pro-"attack site"-verbiage group regarding the current version, and the arguments that have been advanced for it. So far, I haven't seen much discussion about the real issues here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually the way the policy reads right now is good. It doesn't try to define an attack site, but says that links to off-wiki personal attacks are prohibited. This means that unless the link goes directly to a page that contains a personal attack, then the link is ok. CLA 01:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't mean that. You're reading Wikipedia policy like it's law; that's not how WP works. A link is not necessarily "ok" just because it isn't specifically prohibited. We reserve the right to exercise judgment in all cases, and to treat everything on a case-by-case basis. If somebody is linking in an abusive way to some page, we can take action whether or not the page they link to contains specific words or ideas. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I can live with the current version. It isn't perfect to my mind (why is this not subject to 3RR, when removing a direct, obvious attack is "controversial"?) but then part of developing consensus means recognising we can't all have our cake and eat it too. I would be inclined to take up the suggestion made above, to find a way to combine the two references to ArbComm positions so that the "Notes" section isn't quite so flagrant in highlighting the differences in opinion from case to case. Risker 01:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is pretty good wording too, but like GTB above I am very interested in hearing the "pro-attack sites" verbiage group make their arguments. Therefore I want to keep my comments brief and try not to distract from this goal, I just wanted to point to another previous version that I don't think that GTB will like, but perhaps it will add to the conversation here: [3] If I am looking at the diffs right, it appears that User:JzG edited that part and it remained for a few days with no comment on this talk page (that I know of), then it seemed to be changed. I do not know if conversation took place before this change. I am looking forward to an honest exchange of ideas here. (Casual reading of the mailing list indicates to me that a more honest conversation of this wording has taken place there.) daveh4h 01:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Umm...where? Risker 01:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Where is the mailing list? I thought I saw you participating. I don't participate but I access the archives here http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/ . I felt like I learned more about one group of editors there than I have here. Is it not called a mailing list? :-D daveh4h 07:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Folks, there are a few reasons those opposed to linking to websites that attack people aren't bothering to argue with those that do on this talkpage much anymore. Firstly, some of the commentators here that support these links are participants on wikipedia review and encyclopedia dramatica and soon as we start commenting, you go to WR (especially) and attack us. That is some cowardly bullshit. Secondly, some of us don't want to be harassed by having you guys try to use those websites to gather info and collate efforts to identify us in real life. So many editors have stayed out of commenting about this issue to protect themselves. Lastly, the argument hasn't changed any...linking to websites that attack people by way of trying to identify who we are in real life doesn't have to be tolerated, so the argument is apparently a neverending one. But don't be fooled that silence means you have concensus to link to these websites...you don't.--MONGO 04:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well as the policy itself states, "personal attacks elsewhere create doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith," so I can guess you could treat this as a showing of true colors by the individuals you are talking about. As for it being "cowardly shit," I'd call it more immature behavior, to be honest. In an environment of adults you'd hope that people wouldn't take conflicts off to their tree house to gossip about it. --MichaelLinnear 07:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I've never posted to any of those sites. (As Groucho Marx would say, "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to become a member." (Or that would require me to verify my identity to post there.) So Wikipedia is stuck with my sort until they ever decide to revamp their membership policy.

With regards to your first point, I have a feeling you'd be getting "attacked" there irrespective of what you might be saying with regards to this policy... This is not to make any judgment call on your or their comments one way or another, except that you seem to be one of the "characters," MONGO, that makes this site what it is. Whether that is a good or bad thing is probably a matter of perspective. As to your second point, some of us don't want to be harassed for commenting here on activities that may be taking place elsewhere, not because we are initiating these or necessarily condoning them, but because a link may be, if not necessary, useful in discussing whatever import non-"personal attack" material posted on wiki-centric websites may have for WP. I agree with your last point, however, as I've been saying, you don't need a policy change to remove a link to an offending website. Just remove the damned links, already, but please assume good faith of those who may be reporting an issue "here" that off-site posters may be commenting on or developing... that may be anything. Remove the links if you want, but no need to kill the messenger.

I thought this issue would be over once DC became suspected of SOCKing to push this issue through in the first place. I didn't think I would continue posting here... Actually, I don't know why I am posting this now. For some reason, I, like you, feel drawn to comment here, but I don't particularly feel that these comments will be effective.—AL ^FOCUS! 06:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO doesn't mention the fact that the editors on this page are trying to reach a consensus on a common sense policy and since MONGO doesn't mention any names, I don't believe that it's true that any of the editors here "go to WR (especially) and attack us." I was falsely accused of posting on WR in my RFA so I'm sensitive to anyone vaguely accusing other editors at large of posting there. In my opinion, the real reason that "those opposed to linking to websites that attack people" no longer participate in this discussion is because they're losing the argument. There is a common sense approach to this policy, and we're getting close. Others can participate in the discussion if they want to, but we'll hopefully hammer out a common sense policy with or without them. CLA 07:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, I don't know what bearing that has on this conversation, if there is an editor here that you feel their points should be discounted because they visit a site, please make your case so the rest of us don't waste our time reading their comments daveh4h 08:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, pay no heed to anyone supporting linking to websites that harass our editors. It's pretty easy. In defense of editors such as SlimVirgin, Crum375, Jossi, Tom Harrison, Musical Linguist and the others who have spoken against these links, they just don't want to continue to argue the same points which they have already made more than clear.--MONGO 08:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Then there are those of us who don't want to link to the sites in question, don't "support linking" to those sites, but still think the policy is a counter-productive, bad idea. I find it frustrating that MONGO and others pretend my position doesn't exist, and that the only two positions possible are "support linking" or "support site-ban". That's absurd.

As for "arguing the same points", I have yet to see a response to the only good point that's been made against the policy - namely the BEANS argument. None of the supporters of the policy in MONGO's list has explained how it's a good idea to phrase the policy in a way that's guaranteed to drive traffic directly to WR, ED and WW. None of the suporters has explained why policy isn't strong enough without the "attack sites" wording. It's not about having made the same arguments before; it's about ignoring valid points against the policy. Ignoring these points doesn't help your case, MONGO. -GTBacchus^(talk) 14:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, those six are among the hundreds or even thousands of other Wikipedia members who aren't, at the moment, taking part in this discussion, although each and every one of them has an equal voice in the discussion, should they choose to exercise it. Without their participation, it's up to us who are participating to get a common sense policy written and posted. CLA 08:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

One other thing, MONGO asserts that some of us here are engaging in "cowardly BS" by posting commentary about this debate on WR. I don't believe him. If he wants to prove it he can name WR account names here and, fortunately for him, link to those pages on WR that prove his point, because there currently isn't a policy against doing so. CLA 09:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice try. I don't link to attact sites. Nor do I support the efforts of others who are harassing our editors.--MONGO 10:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Neither do I. Let's talk about whether this policy is a good or a bad strategy, in that regard. I think it's a bad one. Your proposed policy will direct traffic to the sites in question. I think that's a bad idea.

What's insufficient about the policy as it's currently worded? Where's the situation for which it's not enough? -GTBacchus^(talk) 14:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>Personally I've got a bit fed up with being accused of pushing a point when others seem intent to keep going until they get their "way" and GT - ElinorD answered your question and I commented that I felt her reply was stronger than your argument. If we stay and argue the case we are pushing our views against consensus - if we don't bother we are running away because we are "losing". This whole debacle reminds me of the arguments against speed limits on roads - many say there shouldn't be any as it is a matter of personal responsibility but fortunately the powers that be realise it's other people who get hurt by them exercising their "freedom". Sophia 16:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sophia, thanks for replying. You refer to Elinor's response in the section above, #Objections to promoting?. I think I replied to her with rather strong arguments, explaining that a possible occasional disadvantage that we've got the tools to address is less of a handicap than a constant disadvantage that we haven't the tools to address. If my argument is somehow fallacious or unconvincing, I'd like to know why, just so I don't go around believing wrong things. Elinor hasn't replied to tell me why I'm wrong. You haven't done it. MONGO hasn't done it. Nobbody supporting the "attack sites" language has addressed the points I made in response to Elinor above. Apparently I'm supposed to... divine that I'm wrong by looking at tea leaves? What?

Now, you might be very happy just to ignore my points, but you're not being helpful or convincing me of anything. Silence is a pretty crappy communication skill, it turns out. Is my argument so stupid that's it's not worth a reply? Is it the case, as I'm suspecting, that nobody has an answer to it, but that you're willing to ignore the fact that this policy proposal will hurt Wikipedia because it still seems like the best option? We can talk about other options. I feel like I'm trying my damndest to communicate here, and work with people towards consensus, but I'm getting stonewalled. It's very frustrating.

Sophia, do you understand where I'm coming from here? Surely someone can give me more content than "I disagree; won't say why." Surely we can figure out a way to make it clear that policy has the teeth you want it to have without having the damaging language that I'm trying to avoid. Are you going to insist that we not have that conversation, because it's better to ignore than to talk? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

GT I'm sorry I missed your reply to Elinor as this page is so active - I'm going to look for it now (a quick glance didn't find it) and will comment further. I do appreciate the efforts you are going to to understand and try to find a workable compromise. You obviously care and are thinking hard about how to square this circle. Please don't ever mistake my disagreeing with you for a lack of respect for your opinion but in a busy life it's easy to miss things. Sophia 20:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand about missing things, and I apologize if the frustration in my voice seems to be directed at you. The dynamic on this page is somewhat complicated, and I think some of my points have been caught in the crossfire, but it's nobody's "fault". We'll figure it out. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There's plenty of all of that on both sides of this issue, I think. *Dan T.* 17:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

One "side" seems a lot more tenacious than other. Sophia 18:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be coy. Tell us which side you think this is. Mangoe 18:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm way too old to be coy - I thought it was obvious from the discussions on this page about the disappearance the pro-site language lobby. I think you are getting a mite too jumpy now. Sophia 19:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to make clear here, no one has more say in this matter than anyone else. Just because someone "is an established user," has been an admin since 2005, has been given Oversight authority, or participates in discussion on this issue only on IRC because it's "not worth debating" here on this page, doesn't have more say, authority, or power in the debate than anyone else. That this isn't the case may have been implied by one of my esteemed colleagues above with a post announcing why some editors aren't participating in this debate, as if their absence signifies for some reason that our discussion has less merit, authority, or credibility.

It reminds me of the character in Catch-22 who thought that those who, in his opinion, were "better" or "more important" people for whatever reason should have two votes instead of only one. I have to assume that there aren't any editors in this project who feel that they have more say than any other. If they do, then their hubris needs a quick check, because the rest of us have better things to do than deal with it, like writing a common-sense policy on linking to websites. CLA 07:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Honesty

It is clear to me now this is reactionary policy verbiage meant only to ban, well, two sites (There are more but these are the two "big ones"). This is discounting ED as that seems to be banned with or without language in policy. My position is that I do not want to link to these two sites. Even if the page is not an "attack page", I am not going to link to these sites out of respect to other editors. That said, I acknowledge that I do not have a crystal ball, and there may be times when it is appropriate to link to these sites. However, I wll not be the one doing the linking. If there is a time when linking to these sites will be appropriate (and it is unlikely) most of us will know. There's no reason to add language in policy to ban sites that no good faith editor wants to link to. If a linking is made, and it is considered innapropriate, a good faith editor will remove the link.

Trolls will link to these sites no matter what is said here.

I do not want to link to WR or WW. Maybe there are some here that do, specifically to use for trolling. They are a minority and will never rewrite a policy to achieve whatever nefarious goals they have. Good faith editors here do not want an incident like what happened with Teresa Nielsen Hayden's blog. I don't have a crystal ball (FedEx hasn't delivered it yet), but I can say that if "attack sites" language is inserted in this policy, a disruptive event like that will happen again. If there is a way that you can ban two sites without using the "attack sites" language, sweet Jesus please do it.

Moreover, it's no mystery why this is probably watchlisted by many editors and yet few respond. Suspecting each side of evil motives does nothing to solve the problems here and is the reason that this is still not settled. (Hi watchlisters!)

There is no one here that is rewriting language in policy so that it will be "legal" for them to use links to attack Wikipedians. That scenario cannot happen, simply because of the nature of the community. It is impossible to make that "legal".

And with that I feel as if I just wasted more time. Who is this dave guy and why is he typing so many words?daveh4h 08:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As I've said elsewhere, trolls and other banned users already laugh in the face of this site's rules, why would they start caring now? --MichaelLinnear 08:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Seeing some of the above discussion, it seems like people's opinions on this issue "ought" to be discounted if they've ever posted to one of those anti-Wikipedia sites, while people's opinions should be regarded as more important if they've been attacked by people on those sites. Since I fall in both of those categories (I signed up for an account on one of those sites in order to respond there to ongoing attacks on me that were being made there), how does my opinion rate? *Dan T.* 12:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

We need more information. Can you be accused of living in the same state as a banned user? CLA 12:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would people who have been attacked have a more important voice? Being attacked gives you sympathy from bystanders, certainly, but it makes your own motive suspect of crafting policy to vindicate yourself, rather than a motive of crafting a policy for the interests of the community at large. Everyone who posts to this talk page to make policy has an interest in the outcome. For most participants, whether those interests are personal are unknown and unknowable.

Focusing on the possible interests of the participants, rather than the words they put down about the outcome, is a discredit to the very policy we are trying to create: Comment on content, not on the contributor. SchmuckyTheCat

Fortuitous locking

Hmmm.... It seems, by a fluke, that the article may have been accidentally locked in The Right Version. Can we just agree on the current wording and stop now? Mangoe 12:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. How about a quick poll? CLA 12:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That's never happened before... (an article being protected in The Right Version, that is...) alert the tabloids! *Dan T.* 12:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

In my deep cynicism, I am of the firm belief that those who wish to use the term "site" instead of "page" will simply come back and edit-war it back in after protection is lifted again. That has been the history of this page for some time. The majority of editors agonize over wording to try to satisfy the "never-linkers" (which they often don't even comment on), the "compromise" wording is entered into the policy, it sits for a period, then then "never-linkers" return and revert it to the DennyColt version. Reading the talk page, it is clear that the overwhelming number of editors believes the "attack page" wording is appropriate, but that has not affected the pattern of edits whatsoever. Risker 13:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That isn't cynicism, it's experience. SchmuckyTheCat

Ha. Odd that the fellow that started edit warring over this issue and asked to have the page protected on his version, was blocked for 3RR right after this due to his edit warring on another article. The overwhelming editors...where are those? I see about a 50-50 split...hardly concensus, really. All I see are a more vocal voice, but in terms of stating their arguments, the actual number of those who have said no links to these sites and those who have the said the opposite are equal. Odd, but what we have here are editors who have posted to these attack sites being the most vocal advocates of continuing to link to them...as if your opinions and contributions to them are so important.--MONGO 17:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Curious, MONGO, what do you make of the distribution of "support" vs "oppose" votes in Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes that were cast on this issue?—AL ^FOCUS!

That also points to a larger POINT to this discussion. This talk page isn't the only judge of where comunity consensus is on the matter; another example, [4]. SchmuckyTheCat

MONGO, my contribution to the discussion is as important and valid as yours. SchmuckyTheCat

MONGO, I personally find it very disturbing that you and other editors keep suggesting that anyone who opposes the addition of BADSITES to this policy is also a poster on attack sites. I have never posted there, nor have many, many of the other editors who oppose this addition. Not only is this factually incorrect, it borders on an ad hominem attack itself. Many of the editors who concur with your opinion have not (as far as I can tell) been subject to negative posts on these sites; that does not make their position any less worthy of consideration than that of editors who have been subjected to such nastiness.

This policy is about personal attacks. It is not about banning links to other sites. If it was, it would be called the "No Linking To Attack Sites" policy...oh wait, we already had that, and it didn't come close to consensus; but for some perverse reason it is redirected to this page. There is not a single person who has posted here who is opposed to the idea of saying that using links to prosecute personal attacks is wrong. This is a positive addition to the policy from where it sat on April 17, 2007. It is widely supported. There is no consensus to support the notion that any link to certain sites, regardless of where the link is, automatically constitutes a personal attack. Risker 17:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia review, unlike encyclopedia dramatica does not claim to be a parody website. Instead, editors there have repeatedly tried to identify the real life identities of some of our contributors. Participating in that website is not an actionable offense in the least, and I encourage anyone who can get an opportunity to do so, to post there to try and alleviate the lies and misrepresentations that have been produced by these cowards. However, in keeping with the ban effective against the parody website ED, linking to an even more capricious website is unlikely to be something I would ever support. In the findings in the case brought against me by a now indefinitely banned editor here it states that, "Numerous pages of the Encyclopedia Dramatica website purport to disclose detailed information concerning the names, geographical locations, ISP's, and personal attributes of various Wikipedia administrators and editors. Any Wikipedian whose conduct assists the ED editors in compiling and publicizing such information has acted contrary to the best interests of the Wikipedia community."...links to WR do the same thing as those that are to ED. WR contributors have tried to identify the names, locations, ISP's and personal attributes, just like on ED. The argument that this isn't all that is done on WR is weak...the same applies to ED, for they too do other things besides harass our editors...but we still don't link to them. If you are linking to WR, you are "publicizing" that website. Mangoe's pointy approach by deliberately linking to that website to "prove" he isn't there attacking anyone is noted. Not sure why my username would appear there at all, unless I am a threat to their google rankings by demanding we don't link to them.--MONGO 21:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"[A] threat to their google rankings by demanding we don't link to them." Are you aware of the use of nofollow on Wikipedia? This is about principle, nothing as petty as Google ranks. --MichaelLinnear 23:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, you are not responding to my points. You have failed to explain why the policy about personal attacks should outlaw the linking to what you define as attack sites. You want that policy, you write it and convince the community it is the right thing to do. So far, everywhere that argument has been brought, it has failed. Everywhere. BADSITES. Here. The mailing list. Even Gracenotes' RfA. I am sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence that there is broadbased community support for this. Risker 22:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

To Linnear...principled editors wouldn't want to link to websites that harass our editors. To Risker...I don't really care what is being said on the mailing list..they can come here and argue about it. I have no idea why the gracenotes Rfa is being brought up...many that supported did so not because they condone the links, but because they trusted he wouldn't add them himself. I have already stated why the main supporters of this have lessend their contributions ot this arguemnt...they have made their case, and they have many other areas they are active on, many are amdins and are distracted. I won't name the dozens that have emailed me and support my efforts to continue to argue this point...a large number of them have asked to remain out of it since they don't want to be harassed off site...a few have even thought about creating sock accounts to mask their identity to protect themselves. I'm sorry, but the reality is there is no broadbased community support to link to websites that attack our contributors.--MONGO 04:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Which is an entirely different question from whether our policy should explicitly say so. Some of us agree that it's inappropriate to link to the sites in question, but have concerns about the wisdom of the proposed policy, and how it's worded. You say that editors in support of the proposed policy have made their case, but the arguments I've made here stand unanswered. Does that mean my points are granted? Clearly not, so what gives? What am I missing?

The proposed wording is a guaranteed traffic generator for the sites in question. Does anybody even disagree with this point? Nobody has done so in so many words, there's just been no discussion.

Can we just ignore the people who want to link to the sites, and have a discussion about the best way to word the policy, or must this conversation be held hostage to the idea that there are only two positions one can take? Is there truly no room for sanity here? Why is nobody receptive to the suggestion that we protect ourselves in a way that doesn't involve hurting ourselves as well? Can anybody explain to me why that's such a bad idea? If you don't want to post here, email me, I don't care. This is getting infuriating. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no desire "to link to websites that attack our contributors." Honestly, ED and WR have proven themselves to be attack sites, and have little or no redeeming content that is worth anything. I'm opposing on the principle that the policy is poorly worded and ultimately ineffective. I think that most are opposing the proposed policy in its currently worded state or are against an easily abused "total ban" ruling, and in no way support harassment, outing, or anything of that ilk. By putting such emphasis on the evils of attack and outing sites, how awful they are, and what steps to take, it is in effect acting as free advertisement. I advise those thinking about what GT stated to read this article. "Wikipedia’s ability to generate high-quality traffic can be equal to or better than that of most search engines." Wikipedia is good at drawing attention to things, why do we want that to be attack sites? --MichaelLinnear 05:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You mention the "what steps to take" angle, Michael. I think that's probably the most effective form of protection we have. The best ways to protect against the dangers of harassment of this nature are (a) have a smart policy of responding to harassment without escalating it, and (b) make it easy for editors to get privacy violating material deleted quickly and discreetly. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the unnamed "dozens of people" who have privately expressed their support to MONGO. I've been participating in online discussions, debates, and flame wars for nearly 25 years now, since getting introduced to the brave new online world as a college freshman in the days when the Internet was still the ARPAnet, and there have been innumerable occasions when somebody, unable to defend their position with facts or logic, and appearing not to have close to a majority supporting his side in the debate, would resort to that strategy. It's very convenient, since there's no way to prove or disprove it. The Pope and the Dalai Lama have, incidentally, been emailing me with their strong support for my side in this argument, but unfortunately they requested I not reproduce their messages. *Dan T.* 14:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That would be a more compelling argument if His Holiness were actually editing the page in your support. Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Really, wow, if the Pope and Dalai Lama are telling you it's okay to link to websites that attack our editors I am very surprised...I figured it would be more like the numerous banned editors who troll WR, like Rootology, FAAFA and the various other miscreants who seem more interested in wasting time on frivilous websites than writing a fact based encyclopedia. I guess poeple who post to those websites must really be some bored people.--MONGO 19:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've gotten many messages from top men in support of my position. Who? top men. Mangoe 14:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I made it clear...there have been plenty of people supporting these links and they have edited the policy as well as commented here. That the more vocal supports of linking to attacking websites have decided to fillibuster this issue is no surprise...they are the ones with the most to lose, since we are going to remove links to their precious commentary made at the attack sites whether they like it or not. Just, with it spelled out that way in policy, they can't come to someone who removes the attack and state...gee why did you do that? You don't have a right to do that...what this banned troll has to say in this thread on WR is very important to this encyclopedia project...we really need it so we can know what their opinion is...we can't write the encyclopedia without it. Sure..the opinions stated at these websites is really a valuable component to our efforts to write and administer this website. When someone proves how that is possible, I'd really like to see it. Why don't all these people contributing to the mailing list (which is a waste of time as far as I am concerned) come here and support Dtobias, GTBaccus and mangoe...all I see are are about the same number of supporters as opponents...just the opponents are posting here much more frequently. More postings doesn't equate with concensus, sorry.--MONGO 19:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I note that, by being consistent in my arguments that an absolutist total ban on any site which has or does host attack material is unworkable and against the interests of Wikipedia (and by re-iterating my position from time to time) that an editor, User:MONGO has therefore included me as one those persons, or a party to those persons, who contribute to such sites. I state that this is either a lie, or an extremely ill judged fallacious statement which indicates a fundamental inability to comprehend that a person may take a view in which they have no personal advancement but thinks may be to the benefit of persons unknown to him. Someone with a less than liberal attitude than I might even believe it constitutes a personal attack on my integrity as an editor or person.

The very next post I should like to see under this one is from User:MONGO retracting the generalisation regarding those who oppose the absolute ban, and continue to argue the case, and clarification that he is fully aware that I do not contribute to any site regarding Wikipedia other than Wikipedia. A fucking apology would be appreciated too. LessHeard vanU 22:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

LessHeard, it's clear that there are people from these sites here to stir things up. After a busy day's stirring, they go back to the sites and discuss the results of their efforts. Not everyone who's opposing the no-link position is doing this, but some of the most persistent ones are, and it's making it hard to assume good faith of anyone, which leads to more toxicity, which the stirrers then use to accuse the no-linkers of bad faith and extremism. It would be a good idea to break the cycle. The best way to do it would be if editors of goodwill on both "sides" could explicitly distance themselves from it, or distance themselves from the discussion entirely until the heat is out of it. Just a suggestion. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have been fairly quiet here, of late, since I support the efforts of GTBacchus and Dan to provide a form of words that both parties to this debate can agree to. I will, from time to time, make observations if I feel they are justified and hopefully advance the process. I do not care to have my efforts disparaged on the basis of I may share some sentiments with other editors who happen to choose different avenues to record their opinions (and which is not to say that those editors do not have valid concerns outside of their own interests, anyway.) As for AGF, I do not see that any one grouping has a monopoly, either. Thanks for pointing out your concerns, anyway. LessHeard vanU 12:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU, Do you? Anyone can register at WR so long as they have a nonfree email account...they can set up whatever username they want there I suppose. You want me to "expletive" apologize for a comment that was not all encompassing and not once named you. The level of paranoia on this page is becoming bewildering.--MONGO 22:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Other than the bewildering lack of AGF in asking, I am pleased to state; No, I do not post outside of Wikipedia on matters relating to Wikipedia.

You will note that this what I had in effect already said in my last paragraph of my first response. If you are uncertain as to the content I would be pleased to re-iterate it again. Perhaps your phrasing of

That the more vocal supports of linking to attacking websites have decided to fillibuster this issue is no surprise...they are the ones with the most to lose, since we are going to remove links to their precious commentary made at the attack sites whether they like it or not.

could do with some clarification, since it appears to state that anyone who continues to argue for a non-absolutist position has an interest in sites which would be effected. This is particularly outrageous in as it casts any opposition as being tainted by association and attempts to stymie debate over issues by a fallacious argument that such vested interests render the points raised as irrelevent.

Lastly, you appear to know a lot more about WR than I. I will AGF by not concerning myself with your interactions with that site. Please note that in assuming good faith I do not necessarily assume good sense, since I haven't noticed any application of same in this debate, and therefore your apology is no longer required. LessHeard vanU 13:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) MONGO, to be fair, you have made some sweeping generalizations, such as "nothing to opppose, unless you're an ED or WR partisan". That's pretty difficult not to take as a slight, for someone who opposes the proposed policy for good-faith reasons. LessHeard isn't the only one who feels you've been tarring some of the wrong people with your claims that anyone opposing the policy must be some kind of "bad guy". I found it insulting, anyway, although I don't think that was your intent, as you clarified in our email correspondence. -GTBacchus^(talk) 13:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Why oppose the proposed policy?

What I oppose is putting the following sentence (chosen from a recent version), or its equivalent, into this policy:

[A] website that engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants will be regarded as an attack site whose pages should not be linked to from Wikipedia pages under any circumstances

That sentence advertises the fact that there are websites engaged in the practice of publishing private information on Wikipedians. An arbitrary reader of this policy page is not likely to know that, much less to be thinking about it, before we tell them. Let's not tell them.

Who is "them", by the way? In this case, it's everyone who ever gets warned for making a personal attack. We give them a link to WP:NPA. You want to float a reminder that WR is out there to every disgruntled, tendentious, trollish boor that you send this way? Think about it.

What would it take to convince supporters of this policy that we've already got the protection we require without spelling out quite so much in policy? Answer here, by email, or by smoke-signal. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've been rather clear that we don't need to mention the websites at all. We don't link to ED..the reasons to not link to WR are even better...WR doesn't claim they are a parody site....there is nothing to "laugh off" about WR. How many time do you have to tell me I am not listening (reading) or addressing your points? What are the points? That linking to WR and similar websites is somehow beneficial to our efforts to write or regulate this encyclopedic effort? I completely fail to see how that is possible.--MONGO 06:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No. I'm not claiming that, and I've never claimed that. Let me be very, very clear. I do NOT support linking to the sites in question. I only oppose giving out inappropriate details in policy. That's all I've ever opposed about this.

You clearly still don't know what point I've been making, if you think that I'm arguing for linking. It's like you haven't read a single word I've typed. How many times do I have to say you're not listening? As long as you claim that I'm arguing for linking, I guess. I'm not.

You say "we don't need to mention the websites at all", but the version you've reverted to does mention them. Are you starting to see what I'm arguing against? -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Who supports your proposed wording? Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Several people have said they do on this talk page. What do you want, a list of names? -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That would probably be informative, but it will also be clear from who edits the page. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

And your point is...? -GTBacchus^(talk) 13:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

No we don't need to name them. What is your point? We don't need to name which websites we are talking about in the policy. Look, the reaosn this needs to be spelled out in policy is because myself and others who remove links to these harassment websites shouldn't have to answer to every single whinning troll who complains about it. All we do is then point them here. Stop repeatedly accusing me of not reading your comments...I am sick of that.--MONGO 20:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I "accuse you of not reading my comments," because your responses don't indicate that you've understood what I've said. You seem to think, for example, that I'm defending linking, or opposing removal of links, both of which are completely false. You're sick of me saying you aren't reading my words; I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth. How do you think it feels to have my words twisted over and over again into something I never said? Do you even realize how many times you've called me undeserved names, and claimed that I was saying shit I would never say?

Yes, naming the sites in policy would be a bad idea. Simply indicating that "there are websites devoted to collecting personal info on Wikipedians" is also a bad idea because it informs people that such websites exist. Many people don't know that, but you seem determined to tell them.

As for answering every troll who complains, that's something we can talk about. It's actually not that hard to reply in a way that makes them go away. Spelling it out in policy won't particularly help, and it will hurt. That is my point. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason we need not to have any such policy is so the tinpot authoritarian power-freak censors who go around suppressing links don't have a crutch to lean on... hopefully they'll finally go away, or go do something useful elsewhere. *Dan T.* 20:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What about the wikitruth website? SakotGrimshine 20:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

A very interesting case, indeed... that site has "outed" a number of Wikipedia editors, republished deleted articles with WP:BLP concerns, and other stuff that might be regarded as antithetical to Wikipedia and Wikipedians... and we still have an article on it, complete with an external link. *Dan T.* 20:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Odd...looking through the listed category about Wikipedians, I failed to find anything in which anyone's IP was being listed, their address...etc. Surely plenty of personal attacks...but I failed to see where anyone is being "outted" and that is the issue. Privacy rights.--MONGO 21:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

On wikitruth, here's examples: (self-removal SakotGrimshine 22:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC))I think the whole stalking stuff on Wikipedia Review is just one person there stalking SlimVirgin and I won't name him in case he puts his hivemind page up as I don't want to get on it. Some websites like LiveJournal for some reason also allows people to use their site for stalking people by IP, too, and won't remove postings of IP addresses even with numerous complaints to their abuse department so I'd recommend caution on allowing links to LiveJournals. SakotGrimshine 21:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I see some pretty egregious personal attacks, but I don't see any effort to post information that outs their identity that isn't already common knowledge. I'd rather not have the examples listed here at all...you could have just commented without those names. Again, they use their real names to edit, so its really not the same thing as collecting information in an effort to deliberately try and figure out the identity of someone who doesn't want to be public.--MONGO 21:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed them myself. There's in history if someone really wants to see. The first example had someone's name prior to a name change and the other had someone's real name which isn't on their userpage. SakotGrimshine 22:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO you "don't see any effort to post information that outs their identity that isn't already common knowledge." Are you serious? It's possible that WikiTruth is the baddest BADSITE of them all. WikiTruth has actually succeeded where WR and ED have tried and failed. They have exposed name changes, gender changes, real names, sexual fetishes, and a predilection for net sexing hijinks. How does exposing such intimate facts about individuals not qualifying as outing someone? If you actually read what they said on WikiTruth, you'd have seen that they spent a great deal of time trawling the internet for information on their opponents, as they said "Wikitruthians started browsing Google and ferreting out little bits and batches of information. By the time they were done..." and "As they say in the press, we "ran with it"." Apparently some of their content was so out there, that even Wikipedia Review sent them a takedown request. So, why does WT get a free pass here? --MichaelLinnear 05:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've just now checked out that site and I have to agree. I'd feel more comfortable with my personal information in Brandt's hands than on their servers. (Although they've got a diff of mine linked to on their main page, currently the fifth bluelink under the subheading The Wikitruth Hit and Run... Rare glory! [5])—AL ^FOCUS! 05:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You're e-famous now. --MichaelLinnear 05:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

All I wanted was to welcome Brandt and for him to appreciate the warm and loving community we have here.—AL ^FOCUS! 05:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

AL now passes WP:NN. daveh4h 06:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's all i need. Seriously though, when I posted that I thought I was going to be the first Wikipedian ever banned for posting a welcome message.—AL ^FOCUS! 06:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Even if you posted a custom welcome message with the image in the lolicon article in it, you'd still not be the first. There was another guy who used to post this big manifesto or whatever in welcome messages complaining about things on wikipedia and he got banned for it. SakotGrimshine 08:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, so much for notability. It seems I still have a lot to live up to!—AL ^FOCUS! 17:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Cowardice

Anyone with any grey matter left from reading all this can figure out that I am the person MONGO means when he claims that "Firstly, some of the commentators here that support these links are participants on wikipedia review and encyclopedia dramatica and soon as we start commenting, you go to WR (especially) and attack us."

This has gotten completely out of line.

MONGO, if you're going to make accusations like that, you can cite them, or you can retract them. I think it would be dishonest for me delete all the attacks you've made on me here, so I'm going to post what I actually said on that nasty "attack site", and I'm going to cite it, so that people can read it for themselves and make up their own minds, and they can verify that I'm quoting myself accurately.

A search on Wikipedia Review shows that I've mentioned MONGO by name exactly five times. Two of them were in a thread on the "badsites" controversy.

On 25 April I posted the following (deleted link): "MONGO is now trying to revive this by putting it on Wikipedia:No personal attacks. He is just not going to give in on this."

On 25 May I posted the following (deleted link): "The attempt to run a referendum on this in Gracenotes RfA is chugging along, and I've been accused by MONGO of calling him a "dick" when what I said was that the "BADSITES" pseudopolicy was providing other people with posibilities for being a dick. I pointed out that he left JVM's attack in place, and just smudged the link, and he didn't like that one bit."

I could post the other three, but they are pretty much like the first one. And here's the thing: At the moment, the pseudopolicy is all too conveniently about enabling you to make unsupported accusations about me. I expect that you or one of the other usual suspects is going to swoop in and delete the cites or even this whole response. And you know, I think at that point it'll be time to start RfC, because I'm really getting tired of the way you have made free with the accusations without producing a single character of evidence. Mangoe 17:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

And, as usual, they prove you right by suppressing the links. *Dan T.* 18:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have removed links, in accordance with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Outing_sites_as_attack_sites and Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Links_to_attack_site and also Fred Bauder's clarification, and ordinary administrative action against trolling and WP:POINT. I will block the next person who adds them or similar ones. Musical Linguist 18:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

And with that, you endorse that MONGO can make unsupported allegations against me, and that I can be penalized for backing up my refutation of them. The hypocrisy stinks. Mangoe 18:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There's no small amount of WP:POINT-making on the part of those who remove links that are being used as relevant evidence of an issue that others have brought up in this policy discussion, however. (It's actually my fair and balanced opinion that, given the incendiary nature of this debate, any act of either adding or dropping such links has a great deal of WP:POINTedness attached to it.) *Dan T.* 18:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone needs to come in here and blanket block us all. Please, before anyone posts again.—AL ^FOCUS!

Stop me before I post again! *Dan T.* 22:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If only I were an admin, I'd adopt a rigid "block first, ask questions later" (If ever...or better yet: "avoid all questions") policy. I think I'd be a good admin. Maybe I should nominate myself. —AL ^FOCUS! 23:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You find this stuff funny? Sophia 06:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I find myself alternating between laughing at this whole silly debate, and getting angry about it... all in all, laughter is the healthier response ("the best medicine", as Reader's Digest puts it). *Dan T.* 11:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course. If I didn't keep a sense of humor about things participating in debates here would have become way too demoralizing a long time ago.—AL ^FOCUS! 23:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

A Serious Question Was Proposed That SlimVirgin Archived

I asked a non-hypothetical question involving sites that attack me personally that are linked to by Wikipedia. No one answered, and so I reposteded. Those who have a conflict of interest with issues of anonymity deleted my repost. I protest. --Pleasantville 22:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no COI with "issues of anonymity" (whatever that would mean), and I was the one who archived it, because it seemed to concern BLPs and some off-wiki conflict you're in, which isn't connected to Wikipedia and which you keep trying to post about on this site. You've been asked to stop many times by multiple admins. SlimVirgin ^(talk)

If you shoot me an email and link me to what the attacking links are, I'll remove them myself.--MONGO 23:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the link to the discussion, at the end of the linked-to section[6]. Risker 23:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

One of the reasons that my distinguished colleague listed in her edit summary for deleting your example was that no one responded to it. So, I'll respond to it here. I'm sorry that you were the victim of an off-wiki personal attack. I also understand your point that deleting references and links to the sites involved wouldn't have served any purpose except to perhaps make the situation worse. I've heard that some other wikis and online information forums require their admins to use their full names. Perhaps Wikipedia should consider that as a policy as well.

Wikipedia's BLP policy allows articles to be created on people with or without their consent. This means that a widely read source of information on that person is completely beyond their control, with no easy way (for most) to ensure that it presents accurate or fair information about them. Who ultimately controls which articles are deleted, protected, and has the power to resolve edit and content disputes by blocking or banning? Admins, of course, especially including oversight admins. So, admins will always be targeted off-wiki by those unhappy with the admin actions with regard to articles, especially bios, that the third party is unhappy with. Every admin on Wikipedia needs to be aware that off-wiki attacks are possible, and perhaps even likely because of the power of Wikipedia on the web and the role of admins as the enforcing authority in Wikipedia. Banning site names from Wikipedia won't do anything about it, except perhaps to give some admins a false feeling of control over Wikipedia content, since they can't control anything off-wiki. CLA 23:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Another situation - "Pseudonymous" editors using their real names in Wikipedia-related activities

Today, in accordance with the portions of this policy that everyone agrees upon, I requested oversight of an edit where I deleted the apparent "real life" name of an otherwise apparently pseudonymous WP editor. There is a catch, though. It seems the person who posted the RL name got it from an email exchange that started with the poster clicking "email this editor" and the apparently pseudonymous editor responding. It's not entirely clear from the original post whether the real name came from the email address or the email signature; given the circumstances (that the information was going to be oversighted), I didn't want to ask the person who posted the information.

It seems to me that if people want to be pseudonymous and receive protection of their real life identities, then they shouldn't be using email addresses and/or signatures that include their real life names or other personal identifiers. For pity's sake, anyone can get a G-mail account!

My question - why should Wikipedia take upon itself the responsibility of "protecting" the personal information of people who give it out when responding to Wikipedia-related emails, writing on the mailing list (archives are publicly available), and/or using IRC without an effective cloak? These are all Wikipedia-related actions, even though they aren't directly posted onto user pages.

I found this completely unexpected situation to be very frustrating, given that I have supported the notion of considering direct links to off-site "outing" information to be personal attacks. Anyone have any comments? Risker 23:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Did the editor in question actually ask you to remove this information, or did you just take it on yourself to do it on your own initiative? *Dan T.* 00:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Now that the info has been oversighted, I will add that the personal information was posted on WP:RFAR; the only reason it caught my eye was that the real name was a redlink. The editor whose name was given had not been notified of the RFAR at that point; I proceeded without notifying him. Risker 00:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That's the kind of thing that helped bring me to write Don't count on your anonymity. Mangoe 03:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Some people don't seem to think that editors' privacy trumps everything else... for instance, in the recent Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Armedblowfish, where an editor who uses an open proxy (out of a possibly excessive concern for privacy), and who has not been able to edit lately due to stricter enforcement of rules against such proxy editing, requested adminship because the "admin bit" happens to allow editing even through blocked proxy IPs. While he got a good deal of support, his RfA was defeated by the votes of a faction that saw it as a dangerous precedent to allow anybody, even a good editor, to edit through a proxy where there is no possibility of accountability through Checkuser. Curiously, that faction seemed to include some of the same people who are so insistent that a ban on linking to "attack sites" is necessary to protect editor privacy. *Dan T.* 03:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Dan, there is a ban on linking to "attack sites". We haven't been arguing about policy; we've been arguing about what to write down on the policy page. Policy is what it is. Until there's a good reason to link to ED or WR or WW, such links can be removed, and such removal will be supported by the community, in particular by the core members. That's a de facto ban.

Policy is created by what the community does when we're acting with consensus in the interest of the project, not by some words on a page. I think some of the strife we've seen here comes down to people thinking that they have to write policy down in order for it to be policy. Policy is "do the right thing," and that's not changing. Fred Bauder made this clear weeks ago, I thought, on the BADSITES talk page. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a really bad way of making policy. If real-world law were made that way, then the police could decide, unilaterally by the actions of some prominent officers, that (say) red cars were illegal, not requiring any actual written law saying so; they would just have to start ticketing any red car they saw, and eventually ordering them towed to the impound lot if the owners kept driving them without getting them re-painted a different color; then, if they either get a judge to go along with enforcing the tickets or else intimidate the drivers into giving up without daring to fight the tickets in court, then the "pro-red-car-ban" side will have won without any action by the legislature necessary. If, eventually, there were either a bill in the legislature or a referendum before the voters to codify the ban on red cars, then the pro-ban side would be insistent that, no matter which way the vote went, red cars were still banned and they would continue to ticket and tow them. *Dan T.* 10:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been remarked numerous times that Wikipedia doesn't work in theory, only in practice. -GTBacchus^(talk) 12:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a ban on linking to "attack sites". We haven't been arguing about policy; we've been arguing about what to write down on the policy page. That's what I've been saying since day one. --Mantanmoreland 13:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

...and what I've been fervently opposing since day one, so I've never been part of your so-called consensus. *Dan T.* 13:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Then are you arguing that we've got legitimate reasons for linking to ED or WR? Forgive me if I'm not already familiar with your argument; it's hard to keep up. All I mean by "a de facto ban" is that, so far, there's been no link removal I know of that didn't make sense. If there should be a good reason to link there, then the community would be bound to recognize that. We're not that dumb, when you get right down to it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

See my essay on the subject, if you haven't already. *Dan T.* 15:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no policy on linking to sites (except spam) and there is no definition of "attack" sites in the NPA policy. There isn't a policy, and arbitration decisions aren't wiki-wide policy. We're here to develop a policy. CLA 23:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The de facto ban

All I see is a de facto policy of erasing links to Wikipedia Review which, when written down, has continued to set off outbursts of illegitimate link erasures by people who don't understand the code. Wikitruth is much worse, and yet is tolerated to the point where there is even an article on it. By any standard, it is a site dedicated to personal attacks, with far worse things said than what appears on WR, and far easier to find too. But it hasn't gotten around to attacking The Cabal^TM members, and that seems to be enough to earn its toleration.

It would be simpler all around to just establish a policy about not talking about WR at all, either to link to it or to pass personal remarks about its membership. If it were done, and the whole matter done with, this would all die down. What we have instead is a concerted effort of censorship by The Cabal^TM, a on-again-off-again policy proposal whose application away from WR inevitably sets off a edit war and is inevitably suppressed, and another, unwritten, policy that rude remarks can be passed about WR without penalty. It's really impossible to write all this into policy because it is so blatantly biased, but it's the policy we need if this is going to stop. Mangoe 13:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The first rule of (per badsites) is... you don't talk about (per badsites) ! *Dan T.* 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating...The Cabal now gets capitalizations too...and has been trademarked...wow.--MONGO 13:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It's faster than typing all your names in. Now, are you going to reply to the substance? Mangoe 14:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Why bother responding to your ongoing misrepresentations? If I belong to a cabal, please tell me which one, for I never got a membership card or invitation.--MONGO 14:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a real cabal, in that I don't think you and the others actually communicate to determine your actions in these cases. However, the same list of six or so names keeps coming up in this and related discussions. It would get tedious to type them out each time. At any rate, it's nice to see from the 4th RfD that you've decided to start picking on Wikitruth too, a site which in my opinion is much more repugnant than WR or even (when it exists) Daniel Brandt's material. Of course, there's the tiny problem that it is cited in Real Media Outlets^TM, so its notability is a foregone conclusion. And it will be ever so amusing to have an article on a website which isn't allowed to link to that website. Mangoe 14:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

What the heck does any of the garbage you have written have one thing to do with THIS policy? Get real mangoe...when Brandts pages are "better" then what is on Wikitruth it will be a big relief.--MONGO 15:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much a "cabal" as it's a "clique", such as those which form in high school or middle school. *Dan T.* 14:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Then you can't join until you get out of elementary school.--MONGO 15:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader? *Dan T.* 18:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Mangoe, I've gotta say, your histrionic mode of speaking makes it very difficult for me to take you seriously. It's like you're trying to push buttons rather than to have an honest and open dialogue. All of this "The Cabal^TM" and "(per badsites)" is so... it's like you want to be seen as a caricature, and not taken seriously. I don't want to see you as a caricature; why not just have a normal conversation. You're not under the gun here, ok?

I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying above. What does "illegitimate link erasures by people who don't understand the code" mean, for example? What "code" are we talking about? Which "illegitimate" link erasure are we talking about? Do you think we're working with some kind of legal system here? -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It's gotta be The DaVinci Code! By the way, the "(per badsites)" parts were substituted for genuine mentions of the site being discussed by the recently-blocked single-purpose troll account that was stirring up trouble by bringing WikiTruth for AfD, among other things. *Dan T.* 15:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

GTB, I don't know if "histrionic" was the word you were looking for, and in any case all the "(per badsites)" were the work of our little troll/sockpuppet Merrick3x. Perhaps I am being too sardonic. At any rate, the same set of names keeps coming up: SlimVirgin, MONGO, Jayjg, Josso, Mantanmoreland, Crum375... It seems that they are all hot on this "policy", and that there have been incidents between them and the WR-ites. But they don't really seem to be that hot about pressing the matter when it gets applied to other sites, such as the references to Kelly Martin's blog, or the many cites to TNH's website. And that's the thing that I and Dan Tobias and a host of others have complained about from Minute 1 of this: that the "policy" invites such disruptions because people don't understand that it really isn't meant to apply to these other sites. They don't understand that because there's no way to write it to exclude those sites that isn't obviously biased and self-serving. Or maybe it's just a question of WP:POINTed acts to do these erasures. At any rate, there are twelve new links to WR (at least). Mangoe 16:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"Histrionic" is precisely the word I meant. It's the adjective form of "drama queen". You seem to be making this into more of a drama than it need be.

As for the content, you're persistently barking up the wrong tree. You're just as taken in as MONGO and company by the illusion that policy is somehow determined by what a policy page says. That's simply false. Writing a "badsites" ban into policy is stupid for numerous reasons, including those you mention, but the argument you're making is the wrong one. The reason not to write it into policy is simple: we don't need to. It's already entirely permissible to remove links to ED and WR, without any new policy, just like Fred Bauder said weeks ago. Writing it into policy provides no new advantage, and some new disadvantages, therefore we shouldn't do it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Having an 11 year old daughter, I am perhaps inured to a little drama. Anyway, the point that it is already permissible to remove any link that points to certain types of site is merely one piece of the problem. If we are going to have any respect for evidence, it would be necessary to make those links to cite that evidence. More generally, there are other such citations which require such links (as in the TNH case). It seems to me, as I have been saying all along, that the nature and purpose of such links is important. But it also seems to me that having a group of admins seize upon an ArbCom ruling to justify an apparently self-serving program of censoring away the opposition is embarassing and destructive.

Be that as it may, I'm getting tired of all the second-guessing as to everyone's motives. Anyone who wants to claim something about what is going on in WR should have to cite it. Period. If they don't, they should be disciplined for making personal attacks. Period. That is the single most destructive aspect of the whole thing. I'm the only one who knows my own motives, and there's nobody around (as far as we know) that has any idea what DennyColt's motives were in setting the whole mess off.

And while we're on the drama aspect: the notion that anyone is at any serious risk of real harm from what goes on at WR is laughable. They aren't making any serious attempts to unmask anyone, at least not where I can see. They think they know who a few people are, and that "knowledge" comes up in passing from time to time, but that's about it. And with all the sockpuppetry accusations thwon about here, it's apparent that the principle of anonymity isn't really respected. If someone is banned and comes back under a different name and has a respectable editing career, nobody ought to care. But people do, and it means that it does matter who edits Wikipedia; and that means that real identities are important. Not that I intend to unmask anyone, midn you. Mangoe 20:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It's permissible to remove any link that doesn't help build the encyclopedia. This has always been true, and shouldn't be news to anybody. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a platform for us to engage in politics. I don't know what kind of "evidence" you're talking about; I'll need more context to address that point. What is the "TNH case", for example?

I've made the point several times, when people say that they have to link to WR to provide examples, that there's nothing to stop you from describing an example without having to link directly to it. Every time I've made this point, it's been answered with silence. I take that to mean the point is either granted, misunderstood, or intentionally ignored.

As for your points about second guessing people's motives, I couldn't agree more. Anyone making claims about the motives of others (that includes you, Mangoe, and well as MONGO and SlimVirgin) is being foolish. Such talk doesn't advance the discussion, does make the person making the guess look bad, does heighten the drama, and is, in a word, stupid. (I'm calling the talk "stupid", not the person. I don't consider anybody in this conversation to be stupid.) -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

For reference, the "TNH case" Mangoe is referring to is the recent mass removal of links to the website owned by Patrick Nielsen Hayden and Teresa Nielsen Hayden, which was used as a reference and external link in a number of articles. The "sites" language in this policy was given as the rationale for this removal, as there were a few comments in one comment thread on the blog hosted at that site which linked to and discussed information about the real-life identity of a Wikipedia editor. (These comments have since been removed, as far as I know). JavaTenor 22:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. Have the links been restored? -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe they have, unless somebody missed one. JavaTenor 08:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You are an admitted contributor to WR. Commentary and harassment made by another editor (who is also now a contributor to WR) on the ED website was used as evidence (not by me) which contributed to him being indefinitely banned from editing here. We have blocked numerous sock accounts of his as well. Do you want us to be able to link to WR still, knowing these basic facts...because if you really want to we certainly can. Do you understand the difference between someones petty little comments made on a private blog and the efforts of numerous persons to try and out the real life identities of our contributors? I am really beginning to wonder why this issue is so often avoided by you and the others who I will not name, but oddly, they are also the same set of names that keep coming up in support of being able to link to these capricious websites.--MONGO 16:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, the basic fact that you've left out is that you personally were the beneficiary of that blocking, as anyone who looks at the ArbCom finding can see. Any half-serious review of the material shows that the central elements in this are (a) the furor around Daniel Brandt, and (b) a grudgefest between the Cabal and the WR core members. That's what prompted me to say that we could solve this by simply banning, by name, any further links to WR and forget about everything else, as long as it was accompanied by a reciprocal ban on making petty comments about WR here.

As far as the "outing attempts", it really boils down to the naming of two editors here. And it takes a great deal of searching to find one of those, even at that; but it is that case in which the identification, if correct, is highly relevant. The other one is easier to find, but not especially illuminating. Both identifications are disputed anyway. In any case, what with all the constant "can't link there" attention, everyone knows to look there. The lack of links is only an impediment to the complete computer illiterate.

Indeed, this dispute has, if anything, amplified the need to link to WR, if only to demonstrate that the innuendo you persist in posting isn't true. Mangoe 18:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

(restore indent) Mangoe, MONGO can I propose mediation between you two? (And possibly anyone else interested in continuing this debate in a formally mediated format?) Several RFCs have been tried, to no avail, and while this page is protected we seem to be spinning our wheels here.—AL ^FOCUS! 19:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation might be interesting, but not the context of Mangoe and MONGO. Mangoe has interesting points to make in this conversation but is obviously, and clumsily, also engaging in excuses to link to WR as a nose-tweak to those will object to it. Mediation occurring amidst a background of boorish behavior won't be able to fairly tackle the major dispute on this policy. SchmuckyTheCat

So it works this way: MONGO insinuates malice on my part, and that's OK; but I cite evidence that he's wrong, and that's malicious? Sheeeeesh. Mangoe 20:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ignore MONGO. His strategy is to get you so wound up in defending yourself that the actual issue at hand gets lost. After several trips to RfAR, that strategy is pretty transparent and you've lost no honor by refusing to refute him. State it prima facie that he's incorrect then move the discussion back to the issue. SchmuckyTheCat

Ignore SchmuckyTheCat too...he's an administrator for ED. When I asked him if he could help me about the attack article they had on that website, his response was that I should take it to them...in other words...he doesn't really give a hoot. I'm glad I have better things to do than be an adminstrator of websites that attacks people, but in the completely nonexistant event that I did, if a fellow Wikipedian asked me what they could do about these attacks, I would personally try to get it deleted for them. I think it's pretty obvious what we are dealing with here when an administrator of a website that is now banned to be linked to, is arguing that we should be allowed to link to these websites that attack people.--MONGO 05:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So how would you feel about engaging in a "mediation" setting with Mangoe primarily? Reason I ask is, if any two editors symbolize the "sides" of the debate here, it's you two. Meditation could still work between other editors, but i think any "compromise" made between editors not as invested as you two wouldn't stick. So I think you would have to be involved if a "mediation" strategy were to affect the larger issues in a permanent manner.—AL ^FOCUS! 06:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that would solve anything. There are always compromises...I am looking over some ideas as I type this. I suggest we simply state that websites that attack our editors are not to be linked to. Since some websites seem to make this a major or even sole reason for their existence, there is no reason to be linking to them. They fail RS anyway. I might be persuaded to allow some links for the purposes of arbitration though. I touched on that issue above.--MONGO 09:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The only difference between us on this, is this one word: "sites". Why not just leave it at "Don't like to attacks." and let common sense take care of the rest? I recognize where I agree with you (ED, WR both fail WP:RS, and I hope nobody is advocating something different) and I think you recognize where you agree with me as exceptions to a complete URL ban (you say "some links for the purposes of arbitration"). People who want to delete links will keep doing it. I don't even suggest they shouldn't. When opposed, a specific link just might be appropriate in some context, and it should be fairly and honestly discussed. And of course links to attacks should be removed, and repeat offenders banned and burned. SchmuckyTheCat

If I may try to speak for MONGO and the "six" other editors he referred to earlier as to why they want entire sites banned instead of just individual pages, it's because they, or their fellow editors, have been severely criticized, had their real names published, or been personally attacked on some sites. I think they're afraid that if someone follows a link to a page on that site, then that person will explore around on that site and find the other "attacks" on them contained in the site. The thing is, you can't control that by not linking to sites. If someone wants to go there and look around, they're going to do it anyway, links or not. Banning "attack" sites won't give us control over what people see or find on the web, and it won't keep those sites "out of sight and out of mind" for Wikipedia editors and users. Thus, the common sense approach here is not to allow editors in the project to stage personal attacks on other editors by linking to direct personal attacks off-wiki. CLA 09:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Would replacing the word "site" with "material" (this may have been mooted previously) be a good idea? Material could be both applied to the attack page, and the host site in so far that it condones/allows the offending page. However, linking to a page on said site would be allowed providing the page was of "material" that did not constitute an attack and the link is deemed relevant to the discussion/article/whatever. Since, as argued above, most of the sites mentioned do not pass WP:RS then there would be little reason or need to link, but the capability remains. This could be applied to all sites which may be adjudged as hosting attack material. LessHeard vanU 12:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) Getting back to the subject - LessHeard vanU, I agree with you that the use of "sites" is inappropriate. The word "content" was previously attempted, but completely ignored by those who want to have bans to the sites entirely. This is why I hold out little hope of success for mediation. I'll particularly point out that the majority of editors who want to delete all links, and who continue to edit-war it into the policy, would not be bound by the mediation.

I'll comment on the "de facto policy" bit too, here. There was no de facto policy - it was the practice of a limited number of individuals to remove these links. If the "policy" had been to wipe them out, then none of those links would exist. DennyColt tried it with one site, and look what happened. One could actually argue that these personal practices were unsupported by policy; the previous attempt to have this issue enshrined in policy was also unsuccessful. If it was truly policy, then there would have been widespread agreement at all levels that this was necessary. As we can see from the various discussions on this issue, at every level in Wikipedia there is a significant variation in opinion on the best way to address the issue; there is no consensus of opinion on this matter amongst any identifiable group, even those who have had personal information revealed on these sites.

This policy is about personal attacks. It is not about whether or not WR or ED or WW or WT (or any other website for that matter) have any redeeming qualities such that they could be used for sources, or for discussion, or anything else. Not every link to those sites is an inherent personal attack, so the issue of banning all links to them should be discussed in another forum. Except, of course, there have actually been discussions about this in other forums, and the arguments for banning links have not been found to be persuasive there either. MONGO, you may not "care" what is said on the mailing list about this issue, but at least the people who voiced opinions there signed their names and stated them publicly. Risker 13:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If these websites fail RS, then they are unreliable for sources in our efforts at writing an encyclopedia. There might be extremely rare occasions in which evidence for an arbcom case (as about the only example) might make it temporarily suitable for linking solely for the purposes of transparency, however, as in the MONGO arbcom case, these links were all altered by Fred Bauder after the case closed. That would be the only time I would see that linking to these sites should be tolerated.--MONGO 19:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Who appointed you as the one who gets to make the call as to what is "tolerated" in this site? *Dan T.* 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Stick to the argument please. Any further comments about my edits, etc., please see MY ESSAY first.--MONGO 19:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Risker - material is more encompassing than "content" since material does not need to refer only to attack content but also the structures that enables the content to exist (i.e material aid). Conversely the same meaning of material would allow non-attack "content" the potential for linking. If material was the defining article then both attack pages and sites which condone such pages could no longer be effectively linked, but specific pages of non-attack content could (in theory). This also gets around inherently valid sources (newsmedia, etc.) who may allow attack language as part of its reportage/freedom of expression but are not themselves considered attack venues. LessHeard vanU 22:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC) (do you want to cut this discussion to a sub-section?)

Links taken out of Wikitruth, afd

Per WP:BADSITES/this policy. That site actively defames and outs Wikipedians. Nominated for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikitruth (4th nomination)Merrick3x 13:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ha...you beat me to it.--MONGO 13:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? When were you going to? Tell the (per badsites) . Don't peacock, now! Merrick3x 13:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Assume you will endorse deletion, and keep editing to keep the links out, also? And renominate for AfD if it survives? Merrick3x 13:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Hehe...looks like we have ourselves a SPA, set up to create some wikidrama? I was actually just looking at the article and then saw you had nominated it for deletion.--MONGO 13:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

So, the safety of others is a joke? Is this policy change for real or just meant to suppress the harshest of crticism from linking? Merrick3x 13:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV anyone? ^(H) 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can't allow for POV. If 100 Christian Fundamentalists edit warred to say Dinosaurs were made by God on the 6th day, with ID sourcing, we would revert it out as trash. And descriptive per admins is we remove this trash. Merrick3x 14:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

And if one SPA account wants an article deleted, well... you know the story. ^(H) 14:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll note that MONGO has apparently changed his mind on WikiTruth being an attack site, and gone on a rampage to suppress links to it from various and sundry user, talk, and archive pages. *Dan T.* 12:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the website. Don't wikistalk my edits please.--MONGO 19:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the mediation idea, how about between you and GTBacchus? He seems reasonable, and a refereed discussion might lead to a civil resolution. (Well, one can hope!) Seriously, if you two agree to this I'll set up the mediation request.—AL ^FOCUS! 19:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I see mediation as a waste of time. GTBaccus and I already communicate via email, so we don't need outsiders intruding anyway.--MONGO 19:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

There are no real "outsiders" here, since everybody is affected by the policy that's under discussion. *Dan T.* 20:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd actually be open to mediation, but if MONGO isn't interested, it's a non-starter. I'm nonplussed by the idea that mediation="intruding", and I'm not sure how much "communication" is accomplished any time MONGO and I talk to each other. I wonder sometimes where he imagines I'm coming from. I'd love to work more closely with MONGO, since we share the same goals, but he's never indicated an interest in doing that. I don't think he trusts me. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation request proposal

Ok, so apart from MONGO, would anyone else with strong feelings, or who just wants to see a resolution to this debate on the "pro" or "con" side of "attack site" language in NPA be interested in participating in a mediated discussion of the issue? I think proceeding in this forum would cut back on the random NPA violations that have been interfering with the discussion of NPA policy, and allow for a more critically focused discussion of the issues rather than of each other.

If interested, please sign your name below. If there is sufficient interest and a consensus to proceed, as determined by those who are willing to participate, I will file the request and likewise participate in the moderated discussion.—AL ^FOCUS! 17:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really participating here anymore, but it may be worth a shot. —AldeBaer 00:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to try. Mangoe 00:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm up for it. *Dan T.* 00:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Only if there is a fair representation of the other view, obviously. LessHeard vanU 01:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be a rather pointless "discussion" without both sides in it. *Dan T.* 01:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of "more than one", although I would doubt there would be any variation in the position ("never, Never, NEVER!") ;~) LessHeard vanU 01:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As I noted above, I'm willing to talk in a mediated setting. Of those who have supported the proposed policy, I guess Musical Linguist is the only one with whom I have a history of productive communication. Maybe she'd be willing to represent for that perspective. On the other hand, I'm certainly in no position to speak for MONGO, Tom harrison, SlimVirgin, or anybody else that they're willing for her to represent them.

I think it's also worth noting that there are at least three distinct perspectives being argued here: (A) Links to the "badsites" should be removed, and this policy should specify that; (B) Links to the badsites may be removed in most if not all cases, but this policy should not use overly specific language (in particular, it shouldn't talk about the existence of sites that collect personal information); (C) Links to the badsites need not be removed.

The argument between (A) and (C) has been pretty thoroughly hashed out, and I don't see much further progress in that direction.

Perspective (A) has only given minimal indication that it recognizes the existence of perspective (B), and most of (A)'s replies to (B) have been made under the (incorrect) assumption that (B)=(C). ElinorD provided a notable exception in a thread that's now archived. I'd like to see the discussion between (A) and (B) developed further.

As for the disagreement between (B) and (C), that's hardly come up yet, with one exception being when I stated that there already is a de facto ban on linking to badsites, to which several (C)'s replied "no there isn't", so we haven't done more than scratch the surface of that topic. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

A cogent analysis. Should I contact the editors you've named above to try and solicit their interest? (Though I don't know how much people on this site "trust" me, either. Perhaps your words would carry more weight with them?)—AL ^FOCUS! 03:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I could leave notes on some talk pages. I've already asked Musical Linguist if she'd comment, because I was emailing her anyway earlier today (or yesterday). If I contact MONGO, it'll be by email. There are a few others I could ping on-wiki. I definitely think there is room for discussion between (A) and (B), and maybe it just needs a different context to happen. I'm not sure what to do with (C). -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I've left a few notes. It's time for bed, so I'll have another look mañana. Good evening. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• I would be willing to participate in mediation as well; however, I am quite concerned that the overwhelming majority of editors who have participated in the actual edit wars on this policy have not spoken on this issue. Frankly, if those editors are not willing to participate, then it matters little what agreement results from mediation - they will simply continue doing what they are doing. Even "binding" mediation only affects the participants, it has no effect on the behaviour of others. Risker 03:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation is an excellent idea - we need a neutral forum as we have all become a bit entrenched. Sophia 08:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Not totally opposed to mediation, but not interested either. There are websites that are worse than ED, which we don't link to since it is an attack site. I doubt mediation will be able to change that basic fact.--MONGO 09:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, I'm interested in mediation, but not to change that basic fact. It turns out that some of us agree with removing links, but disagree over how to phrase that in policy. I think it would be helpful if you recognized that perspective, too. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean formal or informal mediation? --Mantanmoreland 15:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I would be open to either. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll think about it. Your position on this is an interesting middle ground and frankly had not been crystal clear until recently. I mean, I don't agree with it, but it is interesting.--Mantanmoreland 16:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, I don't think of my position as a "middle ground" at all. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You say you'll change the constitution

Well, you know

We all want to change your head. -The Beatles

C'mon MONGO how could engaging in mediation be less productive than revert waring over NPA?—AL ^FOCUS! 09:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there are any websites that are worse than ED. Worse in the sense of having more personal attacks. I also don't consider WR one as it's mostly just banned editors going around complaining and complaining and complaining informally instead of being refined personal attack articles with humiliating pictures, voice recordings of people, etc. which ED has. SakotGrimshine 15:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I just got an email through wikipedia and it showed everyone who voted to keep the Daniel Brandt article is being stalked on Wikipedia Review with things such as statistics of their edits. They also picked me out specifically for several personal attacks because I forgot that I voted delete on the article last time. So I'm changing my opinion and view that WR is quite bad, however nothing close to ED. SakotGrimshine 15:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

We could even talk about the potential necessity of setting up regular procedures to identify attack sites as such. For example, I don't understand why Wikitruth and Conservapedia are not treated as attack sites? Who gets to decide such things on what precise grounds? I don't need to actively participate, but I'd appreciate a bit more transparency. And to sort things out, like what this policy should say about linking to attack sites, we may, as Sophia correctly observes, need a neutral forum. —AldeBaer 14:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, MONGO changed his mind on Wikitruth a couple of days ago and started suppressing links to it in the same pit-bull-like fashion he does for ED and WR. And some admins backed him up on it, so it's apparently accepted that he's the judge, jury, and executioner on that issue. Keep going on about Conservapedia enough, and maybe he'll "come around" and start suppressing links to that, too. *Dan T.* 16:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Erm— I was talking about the proposed Mediation... —AldeBaer 16:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

(restore indent) For the record, I was intending formal mediation, as opposed to informal mediation through Mediation Cabal, but am willing to go with whatever venue participants here find the most comfortable. (There have been RFCs, and I really think the extended nature of this debate and the fact that so many ranking Wikipedians have been involved makes it a case for formal mediation, hopefully for the purpose of developing a civil if not binding resolution amongst core participants so far as further conflicts are concerned.) I would also like to point out that participating in any form of mediation would be a definite show of good faith both in other Wikipedians and with Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes.—AL ^FOCUS! 17:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's an excellent idea.--G-Dett 20:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Censorship

Isn't suppressing links to attack sites a form of censorship, which Wikipedia is not? Perhaps the links should be included in articles if they're relevant etc. regardless of any desire to censor them. For example, it seems to me that if there's an article about a web page, e.g. Wikitruth, then it is very useful to readers of that article to have a link to that website in the External Links section.

It's a whole different issue that users should not post messages on talk pages which amount to personal attacks against other users, and therefore they should not post links in such comments for the apparent purpose of effectively making personal attacks while trying to circumvent the rules by not explicitly putting the attack right on the talk page. However, the web is a web: it should not be disallowed to post a link to a page just because following links from that page eventually leads to a personal attack -- unless that seems to be the purpose, e.g. don't post messages like "You can find my opinion of user so-and-so if you go to "this link" and click on "blog" then click on "comment 463"." --Coppertwig 16:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Not if it is an internal editorial decision. Censorship applies to the limitations others place on you, not editorial decisions of the internal community. ^(H) 20:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah! That's how I usually think of censorship! But that isn't what Wikipedia's censorship policy is talking about. --Coppertwig 23:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, says who that there is an internal community here? That seems to be the whole problem: that there is maybe one internal community, but it isn't the whole Wikipedia community. It's a group with access to real power, using it against a bunch of outsiders who not only lack access to power, but have been cut out through the acts of the people in the empowered group. Indeed, the argument right now is that the instigators don't need the permission of the greater community because they already have this arbcom finding even though it's also disputed whether the finding can even be used that way. It's classic censorship. Mangoe 13:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Policy is based on the consensus of the community, so if it becomes policy then there is consensus, if there is no consensus then it should not be policy. So ya, it would be an internal editorial decision. ^(H) 13:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, but whether or not it's an internal editorial decision based on consensus has no bearing on its status as censorship.--G-Dett 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

NPA Query

Is writing something in the form of "a <censored by NPA> user like X" violation of this policy? I was pretty stressed out yesterday, at at one point typed it down (but did not submit). Later I have been thinking about it, couldn't conclude either way. --soum ^talk 12:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Not sure, but it probably doesn't make you look good. Without digging into the history, people can't even tell whether you wrote a real personal attack and got censored by somebody else, or self-censored without posting real attack language. It's clearly intended as an attack, though a muted one. It might be better to try to rephrase it more civilly. *Dan T.* 12:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thought so. Seems like its more of gaming the system. Dont worry, theres nothing serious going on here. It was meant to be light hearted. --soum ^talk 12:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's often a good idea to wait 24 hours to calm down before writing -- and possibly then waiting another 24 hours after wording your response before submitting it! The way the human mind works, the targetrecipient of a remark is far more likely to construe it as an attack than the writer of the remark, or is likely to construe it as a harsher attack, so if you're wondering whether something you're writing is an attack or not -- in the opinion of the person receiving it, it probably is; and that's what counts -- whether that person feels hurt, which then causes relations to deteriorate further. --Coppertwig 12:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Another try at a clarification

It seems to me that this is really about three or four specific sites: Encyclopedia Dramatica, Wikitruth, Wikipedia Review, and maybe Daniel Brandt's hivemind pages (which haven't been up for some time). I'd almost settle for a by-name ban on new links to these, but there a few points need to be dealt with:

• Links in attacks: There seems to be near universal agreement that using links as part of attacks is bad. But it also seems to be that we don't have to write any new policy on this.

• The "one bad apple" problem: This is one of the things that is causing the most distruption. We need to acknowledge that people outside Wikipedia, and I think even wikipedians themselves in other fora, are not bound by Wikipedia's rules of discourse in the net at large.

• You accuse, you cite: Another issue that is coming up frequently is that people make claims about what is being said in one of the bad sites. These need to be cited; otherwise, they are unproven allegations. Indeed, it seems to me that the "ban" is being taken advantage of to make such allegations without fear of contradiction.

• Outsiders are fair game: Not. Forget the simple human decency aspect: making personal attacks on people who aren't here gives them powerful incentive to be here and respond, banned or not. And it encourages "attack site" behavior because the campaign to keep these people suppressed and to use Wikipedia as a platform for denouncing them forces them to try to game and subvert the system.

• Keep your outrage to yourself: Since the WWW is even less censored than Wikipedia, it is reasonable to expect people who wander about it to be responsible for their own sense of outrage. People are going to come across personal attacks, and it's up to them to not try to find things that offend them. Besides, the "they're saying bad things about us!" attacks in Wikipedia are terribly juvenile. Which is it: are the WR complainers a group of powerless malcontents, or a threatening conspiracy?

To sum up: I think this issue would go away if actual attacks within Wikipedia were dealt with in the ordinary way, and the rest of this left to drift on into archives and be forgotten. Instead, we get an outrage every so often because the proposal invites both mindless disruption and outright malice. And it is being used to protect a lot of personal attacks. If we could just forget the whole thing for a couple of months, I think the problem would just go away. Mangoe 14:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)