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Imbalanced article, and proposal to fix

A while back, there was a bunch of material on Starcraft units and strategies. Then there was a great purge under the campaign banner of Wikipedia not being a strategy guide - which was badly needed. However, looking around now, it seems the campaign went overboard. The articles on Starcraft and its three races are overloaded with intricate detail on the plots and characters, which are all relevant only to single-player mode, while there is almost no material on even what the basic units are, which is one of the most important aspect of the game, in either single-player or multi-player mode. The absence is especially significant because probably most game play and notability of Starcraft is in its multi-player mode, not its single-player mode. It's as if you had a long article on chess without ever mentioning that the pieces include a king, a queen, knights, rooks, etc. or how those pieces are different.

I propose we fix this just by at least adding a brief list of the units to each of the three race pages, each with a single short sentence briefly describing the nature of the unit. That would only provide the most basic and undisputedly encyclopedic sort of information about the topic of the articles, and would absolutely not threaten to pollute Wikipedia with verboten "strategy guide" material.

As a secondary matter, it would also help if we trimmed away some of the extensive detail on single-player mode plots and characters.

These concerns are probably true of a lot of other games, though Starcraft is the only one that I have paid attention to.

I'm cross-posting this on the talk pages for Starcraft and its three races plus the video game Wikiproject to draw appropriate attention from potentially concerned users. Please continue the discussion, though at the Video Games Wikiproject talk page, for the sake of a single forum. If consensus ends up running parallel to my proposal here over the next couple weeks, I'll add the units.

- Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 20:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I was going to clean this up a while ago, and I think the problem of over specifics goes far deeper than a lack units. It felt so overwhelming that nothing ever came of it. Are all of these really needed? Wikipedia is not a place for just plot summaries which is where many of these books fall. Many of the other articles have problems and in need of cleanup (although many have good refs). I don't know how all those players could be notable, but I think most of these articles need cleanup; lots and lots of cleanup and not the cutting room floor. What's the move?--Clyde (talk) 20:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say we do not need lists of units. Summarizing the strategy of the race, for example "The Protoss' units are much more expensive than other races' in the game. They compensate for their cost by their... &c." is better. That said, what the article needs most is:

• Kill the plot summary. One way to do this, is to have one plot summary for all the Starcraft media, so you only have to put in two paragraphs max and link to the respective page. Either way, the page needs to be trimmed down.
• Out of universe writing: see WP:WAF
• Out of universe info- this is the crux. What makes the Protoss notable outside of the game? See Master Chief (Halo) for an example of what I've been trying to do- add real-world commentary and criticism, as well as adding info on the development of the character(s).

David Fuchs ^(talk) 21:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think a paragraph, instead of a list, would be more appropriate, as you can explain more succinctly and in less space what the units are within the gameplay section. Also, putting a reference in that new paragraph would be great, since this is a featured article and all material should be sourced. Further, I agree that it should be trimmed a little, go for it. Judgesurreal777 21:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC) [The preceding comment was moved here from Talk:StarCraft#Imbalanced_article.2C_and_proposal_to_fix, for the sake of keeping the discussion in one place - Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 21:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)]

The StarCraft articles should have a healthy balance of gameplay and story. Saying that StarCraft's success is soley to multiplayer and therefore is the only part that should be really focused on it naive, and most of the reviews I've been reading recently (which has been quite substantial due to attempting to find sources on reception) put as much to the SP mode as the MP side.

Clawed One and I have been working to clear up some of the articles. However it's a slow process, and so far we've merged most of the characters into a single out-of-universe article with the assistance of Deckiller. That article is classified as an A-class good article, so only minor tweaks are needed to help it on its way to a FAC (which probably shouldn't be attempted until after SC2's release due to the information that will make itself available after the game's release). Characters with more extensive information available, Jim Raynor and Sarah Kerrigan, have their own articles and are nicely moving along as more real-world information presents itself - these articles have all been assessed by WP:VG and recommendations have been made. We are also working on other aspects of the game, a rewrite of the the species pages is on the table, which will include development information, physiology (and design of), gameplay aspects, faction details and reception. Any plot summaries in the species articles will be limited to short and relevant sections of the factions, whilst gameplay aspects (including MP features) will go in the gameplay section. A list of units is completely unnecessary under any conditions, except in an external link to a page with the list.

We are also working on a locations article, which not only will merge all the old in-universe planet articles but will also talk more indepth about development and design of maps for the game and the reception of the locations and maps of the game - like the characters article, a healthy balance. The books and authorised expansions are also on the to-do list, but these are quite a while away. -- Sabre 22:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Sabre's efforts are the way to go here. User:Krator (t c) 17:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

FYI, notice that Protoss has recently been AfD'd at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protoss - though without corresponding AfDs for the other races (with similarly written articles) — I suggest the discussion here precludes the need for a parallel AfD debate. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 22:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite honestly, they can do what they like there. The complete rewrite would effectively delete the current version anyway. Plus it makes moving a new version out once its done easier if the original page no longer exists. -- Sabre 12:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not going to bother trying to add sources into the current version. Let them delete it, and we'll work on it in the meantime. David Fuchs ^(talk) 13:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, shoot. I should have read this first – the existing articles (and note that Zerg is on AfD now too, but somehow Terrans isn't!) are unsalvageably bad. I'll just note now that I think these articles should primarily have a MP-centric focus. The major debate is over notability, and while one can make various arguments relating to SC single player, its notability is mostly as a competitive multiplayer game, and the article should address things accordingly. taion 20:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Looks like Protoss has closed as no consensus- so I guess this is our time to start cleaning it up? David Fuchs ^(talk) 23:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think it'll really be possible to rewrite the article as something well-referenced without using Korean sources, so perhaps this would be a good first step. I suspect that the article will need to be rewritten with a significantly heavier multiplayer/competitive focus. Perhaps condensing the storyline information would also be a good place to start, as it requires finding no additional references beyond what is already present. taion 00:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with all comments just above by taion. For future reference, overlapping AfDs for Protoss and Zerg resulted in Keep for Zerg, and No Consensus for Protoss, with a conclusion that Korean sources are needed and a recommendation to seek help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protoss

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zerg

- Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 09:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's best?

Look at 3D Monster Maze. I highly doubt that this would make even GA now. FAR anyone? Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 21:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it hasn't degraded significantly since getting the star, see comparison here. It's just that wikipedia's criteria for achieving FA status has moved the bar a little higher I believe. --Oscarthecat 21:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So would you recommend FAR then? Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 21:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The standard for FA's has gone up substantially, so it's probably a good idea to request a FAR, yes. I think it's pretty clear the article will be demoted. JACOPLANE • 2007-08-31 23:22

Okay. I'll nominate it later. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 08:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Pokemon merger, still

The merger discussion is still happening but I don't know if it's going anywhere. It's pretty much about individual notability vs. redundancy and separation of info. I'd love if some fresh voices could chime in. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 08:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Flags

Many game articles use flags, usually , and in the release date part of the infobox. I just noticed someone removing these with the edit summary Removed flag icons to comply with WP:VG standards. So are flags officially not allowed? Personally, I find such a visual representation of the regions more instantly and easily recognizable, and especially when there are lots of instances, such as on Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, comparisons of the various dates given are much easier to make with flags than would be the case with a non-visual representation. If that makes any sense. Miremare 16:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A glance at the talk archives shows that this was discussed here and here. There was consensus at the time not to use flags. JACOPLANE • 2007-09-3 16:46

The current guidelines recommend using {{vgrelease}}. It's elegant and is clearer in the infobox code (see [1] for instance). Kariteh 17:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe it also avoids issues of "which flag do you use to represent a region-wide release?" --Masem 17:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

That's only a problem with Canada though isn't it? And are all games released in the US and Canada simultaneously anyway? Miremare 17:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the European Union flag doesn't really represent the whole Europe. --Mika1h 17:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

And the additional problem of World wide releases. The UN "World" flag was erroneously being used to represent the whole world as well. In my opinion the flags looks messy and get confusing very quickly once you go beyond people general knowledge of flags at least with three letters you've got a hint towards working out the country without having to mouse over it. - X201 18:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

No, but we have flags for the individual countries where appropriate too. Miremare 17:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll second the recommendation for {{vgrelease}}. Anomie 18:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel that the usage of flags on Marvel: Ultimate Alliance looks horrible. JACOPLANE • 2007-09-3 18:01

Seconded. Compared with something like GTA:SA it's no contest in my book. - X201 18:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

To me, the GTA:SA version looks just a mess of letters (especially with the system names in there too), whereas the flags are instantly recognisable. Miremare 18:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I find the GTA:SA article fine. It would look much more confusing if flags were used, because you would have to put two flags each time on one line for the North American date, and there's still the problem of the European flag. Also, for information, the US and Canada don't always have the same date (see Vagrant Story and Legend of Mana for instance). The European flag is a problem as said above because it doesn't represent the whole Europe, and because the "European" release date often doesn't concern just Europe but also Australasia (PAL region). In many articles, it would mean using more than 3 flags on one line for the PAL (Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and tons of others). Moreover, ---(insert tons of other arguments here)... Eh, I'm in the middle of writing my post and I've just realized I don't need to write all this. I'll just quote one of Anetode's argument in the archived discussion:

"Visual representations are inaccessible to visually impaired users who depend on screen reading software."

This argument is impossible to counter. Flags should not be used because of this sentence, that's all. Kariteh 21:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point Kariteh. This seems to be a clincher. I'll stick to using the letters in future, and avoid the flags altogether, thanks for raising this point. --Oscarthecat 22:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Another point against use of flags in the Infobox is the wording of the proposed policy guideline over at WP:FLAGS (their bold, not mine) "Repeated use of a flag in a table or infobox (usually to save space and avoid repeating the country name) should only be done if the flag has been used previously in the table or infobox with both the flag and the country name." Having the full country name in an Infobox will lead to a very messy Infobox. - X201 21:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, how does "EUR" and "NA" help those with screen reading software? Certainly "NA" to me stands for "not applicable" or "not available", which could be a bit confusing in the context of a release date. We would need to spell out the region names in full if screen reading software were the issue. I don't have any particular attachment to the flags themselves (to the best of my recollection I've never even used them) but the current {{vgrelease}} way of doing it doesn't seem ideal. Miremare 22:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

(outdent)Or an non-graphical browser like mobile phones and "optimized" dial-up. In general, hover-text (or whatever it's called) should be used to mean what the picture does, so instead of the text saying "Flag of Japan" it should say "Japan release" or something. Like the Wikipedia logo in the top left, instead of the hover-text saying "Wikipedia logo", it says "Visit the main page [alt-shift-z]". This is optimized for non-graphical browsers.

About the whole North America thing, wasn't there a country called "Mexico" at some point? I doubt every (or even most) NA release date in Wikipedia includes US, Canada and Mexico. And I doubt that EUR releases include every country (or even most) in Europe. This lessens the importance of countries like Mexico. And don't they ever have games in South Africa or Brasil? I never see it. Country-specific would be the best way to go, but it would likely be a huge pain to get all of them. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've never liked the EUR or NA things myself but they are infinitely more palatable than than the combined USA/Canada flag that was incorrectly used to represent North America. The Country by country way is the correct way to go and given that some flags look identical to one another at icon size and that some flags just are unrecognisable unless you mouse over them then the ISO country code would seem the sensible choice, not perfect but as I said above, the three letters give you more of a hint at the country name than a red stripe on top of a blue stripe with a shield in the centre of it. Country by country would need some common sense, perhaps only major markets, or markets where the game sold well with other countries in the article body if needed. - X201 07:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a some grey area with the term "North America" because some definitions of it don't include Mexico (which is then part of Central America instead). This grey area is much more acceptable than using a US flag and ignoring Canada. Besides, this is a non-issue: who ever said that a game released in a region has to be released everywhere in that region? European release means that the game was released "in Europe", not necessarily "everywhere in Europe". If it's released in two different European countries at the same date, then it's perfectly correct to talk about a European release date, and the two countries and why it was only them can always be explained in the article's body if necessary. The same applies to "North America" (the US and Canada are part of NA), while the same does not apply to "USA" (Canada is not part of the US).

As for countries such as South Africa and Brazil, firstly, yes there are games that are released there; see for instance Outlive. Secondly, using the same logic I used previously, a "PAL" release means the game has been released at least in some PAL countries; it doesn't necessarily mean that the game was released in every country using the PAL system (although the South African probably import European games since they're compatible).

Overall, using letters is thus more correct and more versatile than using flags, because you can use letters to refer to both regions and countries, whereas you can use flags only for countries and not regions, thus leading to potential issues of multiple flags being used for one date. Kariteh 08:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Video games
Release	United States: May 27 1994 United Kingdom: May 27 1994 Canada: May 27 1994 Japan: May 27 1994

This (on the right) is what I'd like to see, though I'm sure it's not to everyone's taste. A country-specific system (with full names for clarity) listing the countries most relevant to an English speaking audience. This is also to get around the "North America" and "Europe" problem (especially Europe), though of course these terms could still be used if a simultaneous region-wide release did occur. I don't really agree with the argument that using "Europe" is technically correct if it's release somewhere in Europe; if a game was released only in Luxembourg and Andorra, "Europe" might be technically correct, but it still implies a Europe-wide release. Miremare 17:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

(←)One additional consideration is that for the most part, most new VGs are released as DVDs are: locked to specific regions via hardware; its not as hardlined as DVD region encoding, but the same concept is there. I think because of this, it seems better to mark for the purposes of the infobox the releases specific to region, and then if necessary discrepancies are to be addressed, they can be added within the text of the article. Of course, there are exceptions: if only a single country in the region gets the game, then that country should be noted instead of the region. I'm not 100% sure this is the "right" way, but it does seem like a logically consistent approach. Also, Miremare's idea above could be modified a bit by altering what the {{vgrelease}} template spits out; by using CSS, one could have the full country name if they desired or just the 2 or 3 letter abbreviation (and even possibly the flags if "region acceptable" flags are determined, though this would not be default).--Masem 18:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Masem set me thinking about a minor side issue, in that a lot of people think that Valve's Steam distibution system is a global release system which it is not. It also has certain titles available only in certain countries (see here ) and so it - and GameTap et al - may need some form of regional indication from time to time too. - X201 21:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess my example with two European countries wasn't the best example. My point was that "Europe" is a general term which doesn't have to equal "Every country in Europe". If for some reason Luxembourg and Andorra are the only countries in Europe to get the game, then listing them on one line (if it's simultaneous) or two (if there are two dates) is perfectly fine. However, if the major countries of Europe get the game, it's not necessary to list each of them; using the term Europe is fine; after all that's what the companies do, and if there's something very special to note, then it should be noted in the article, not the infobox. If for some reason there's only one or two particular European countries that didn't get the game while the others did, then there's most probably something interesting to say about it and this has to be explained in the article's body too (like if Germany banned the game because of some Nazi references, etc); in this case, using the term Europe in the infobox is also perfectly fine as long as there's a footnote or a "See (#section)" wikilink that gives more details.

So basically, I think that using flags, or textual country names exclusively, is cumbersome because it requires too much redundancy (like listing the same date twice or more) and too much details (details that shouldn't belong in the infobox but in the article, if they're so important); on the contrary, using textual names which can be either regions or countries is more versatile, because the level of precision that they involve is good enough for the infobox's purpose without sacrificing factuality.

Now as for the abbreviation issue, I believe that full names would be clearer than both flags and text abbreviations. However, I think the font used in the example on the right is too small. Perhaps we could give more horizontal space for the release dates by giving them the whole width of the infobox, like in this sandbox example? Kariteh 22:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Kariteh, I would pretty much agree with all of that. Regarding the sandbox example, that's good, though I'd prefer the country/region names in bold to make them a bit more obvious. However one point I would make is that, were individual countries to be used, listing every one would never be necessary. This is English Wikipedia after all, and we're probably not ever going to need to specify when games were released in non-English speaking countries which are not either major markets (like Japan) or directly relevant to the game itself. For example, if a game was developed in Koera it would be sensible to list a Korean release date, but for a game like Command & Conquer: Red Alert, listing a Korean date would be a little excessive. Miremare 23:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Ick, I definately do not like that sandbox example. Anomie 03:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

About Outlive, I find it funny in regards to this discussion for a game that is notably Brazilian to not mention the Brazilian release date. Let me propose my ideal situation... that someone make country-code SVGs that would have full-name hover-text, so that it looks like JA or JAP or whatever, but if you hold the mouse over (or it's being read by TTS software), it reads as "Japan" or "Japan release date". And we lose the flags. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 04:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not, for clarity's sake, just use the complete country/region name, as above? The two criticisms I have of the current approved system of "NA", "EUR" and "JAP" is that these are too broad and are unecessary abbreviations. The only reason I favoured the flags was that their meaning was clearer than the abbreviations, but full country/region names are clearer than both flags and abbreviations. Miremare 17:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

As long as we can come up with some sort of limit (or style guide) for the number of countries in the Infobox so that we don't get a hideously long list, then I'm be OK with full country names. - X201 17:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There won't be any problem with the number of countries/regions if we apply Miremare's suggestion about English-speaking countries above (most often we probably won't have more than 3 or 4 dates for them). I think the problem of length is caused by the number of platforms of release, like in GTA:SA. By the way, it seems South Africa does get release dates sometimes: see World of WarCraft (the dates for South Korea and for these countries-with-funny-flags can probably be removed in this article). Kariteh 18:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Why would you want country-code SVGs? The full name from the wikilink is already put into the title attribute, which should be picked up by screen readers and such. As for using full names, I still don't think it's a good idea unless we use abbreviations for at least North America and Austrailasia; they take up too much space with the current layout (even enclosed in <small> and <sup>), and something like this IMO looks awful. Anomie 18:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure slight abreviations could be used, such as "N. America" if space is really a concern, though "United Kingdom", the longest name on the example template I posted back up there somewhere, fits comfortably and is longer than either "North America" or "Australasia", so I don't see space as being a problem. Miremare 19:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking back, I think abbreviations can be used after all. We're forgetting the essential: that the main release dates are repeated in the article's lead anyway. We can thus abbreviate North America however we want, since the information is repeated in full letters right at the left of the infobox. There may be lesser "important" dates that are listed in the infobox but not repeated in the lead, but it's not a huge issue since we should limit the dates to English-speaking countries (it doesn't takes a degree in cryptography to guess what UK and CAN refer to). In the rare and theorical case that we'd have to list obscure abbreviations like one for Taiwan or Macau, it would also not be a problem because, if these releases are important enough to be noted, then they would be noted and discussed in the article too anyway, in the lead and/or in some special section, meaning that the abbreviations would still be understandable to the reader. Of course, if we manage to find a good and elegant solution for the full names, it would be good too. I still think the font on the example above on the right is too small though. Kariteh 21:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Taking that approach, one could almost argue, that this is the English Wikipedia, that only releases that are key to English-speaking parts of the world should be noted in the infobox with any other notable releases added in the body prose. From a standpoint of video games (where Japanese releases are very important), that means the only releases that should be listed explicitly in the info box are: US, Canada (together as N. America), UK, France, Germany, and others (as Europe), Japan, and Australia. The only exception to these should be the case that if a game was released first and specifically in a country outside of these (and not just a day or so before the others), then it should be added. Again, this is just the infobox so that we're not filling it up with extensive release dates, only the ones that apply to the English version of WP. If there are other notable countries or regions they can be identified in the main body. --Masem 21:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Disliking both flags, the template for names, and long infoboxes, whenever needed and possible, I try to describe release dates in the text body, usually in the lead or in Development. See Supreme Commander. Fact: no one cares about different release dates being in the infobox or in the prose, except for nationalistic interests. Fact: large infoboxes decrease the value of everything written in the infobox. User:Krator (t c) 21:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I care about them being in the infobox rather than the prose. Not due to nationalistic interests, I don't quite understand what you mean there, but because of the fact that a block of text about release dates is about as interesting to read as it sounds, and completely uneccessary to boot. The majority of articles I've seen have mentioned the year of release (being usually the same in each region) in the lead, and the full date(s) in the infobox. There's no point repeating these anywhere, as you rightly say, and the infobox, being standard, is where they are easiest for the reader to find. Sometimes it's just better not to write about things in the main text, and pretty much everything in the infobox needn't be gone into in the article itself. Miremare 22:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Re-cap

So the current status quo is no flags and three letter country text.
I think we should keep battering away at this issue and get it nailed down. I'll try and run with some of the ideas above and make infoboxes of them using real-life examples (from simple to horrendous) to try and find the best all-round solution. - X201 08:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not just country text but country or region text, and not necessarily three letters (could be two). Kariteh 08:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Or full names. :) I agree that we should keep going with this until we get something sorted. Miremare 17:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

A guideline on lists, perhaps?

As a project, we keep running into issues with lists of things, and whether they are notable, encyclopaedic and necessary. I have been thinking of writing a difficult guideline with all kinds of inclusion tests involving reliable sources and difficult policies. However, given the scope of our project, it might actually be easier to name the most frequent examples. It would make AFD a lot easier, and would divert a lot of energy towards actual article writing. A draft is in User:Krator/Sandbox2, transcluded below. User:Krator (t c) 18:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Template_talk:Sega

I believe that this template has grown overly large (being substantially longer than some of the articles it's on) and would suggest that it be split into two or three smaller templates. For instance, the "franchises" part could be a separate Template:Sega franchises. >Radiant< 11:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: make all subdivisions hide/showable, as the templates at the bottom of Germany are. User:Krator (t c) 14:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Spin franchises off to its own template, it's big enough. hbdragon88 00:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Reception review score tables

For most newer games, it appears that common practice is to now include a table of review scores from "major sources" in addition to Metacritic and GameRankings to summarize the critical response to the game, with the prose of the section used to identify key elements that reviews liked or disliked. This is no problem, as far as I can tell, as long as one doesn't repeat the scores in the prose. (If this is a problem, we should discuss that too, as there's a lot of new games that have adapted that format).

My concern here is in that table, what constitutes a "major source". Again, GameRankings and Metacritic (GR/MC) information is obviously a good neutral location, but then what other sites go there? What I've seen happen is that people will add their "favorite" more indy review site to list, or these lists get out of hand. My suggestion is to determine what the core set of major review sites should be in that table (assuming they've reviewed it), possibly going as far to create a template for this, so that these review tables don't get out of hand.

Major sources are going to various with platform. An Xbox only game will likely include OXM, while a PC game will likely have PC Gamer. But then you have common ones like IGN, Gamespot, 1UP. And then there's the rub, is that everyone likely has a site they'd love to have and a site they would avoid completely for game reviews, so there would need to be consensus for this.

There also may be cases where one must include other sources if its judged that the review scores given by the major sites outside of GR/MC are not telling the whole review story, but this could either be described by the prose or special rows to such a table could be added.

So my questions, in order, are:

1. Are review score summary tables appropriate for reception sections?
2. If so, should such tables be limited to "major" gaming review sites? (outside of GR/MC)
3. If so, what are those "major" gaming review sites that should be included?
4. If this is done, would it make sense to create a template to help keep the focus of the review table

--Masem 15:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

1. They are a useful addition to, but not a replacement for, good prose in a reception section. For an overview on what is written in such a section, a table may be useful.
2. No. They should be limited to gaming review sites that are reliable sources. This list is limited enough to not have to limit it further. A table should include all reviews included in a reception section.
3. See above.
4. No.

User:Krator (t c) 15:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Tips for sharpening some FAs

My current FAC is dead until I finish talking to the show's writers. I've been solely occupying my time with that until now. With Frank Klepacki a main page debutee, I'd love to get a few of the others on the main page:

• Chrono Trigger
• Chrono Cross
• Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon

Anyone want to offer any tips for sharpening those up? I know the plot summary paranoia has grown exponentially in the last few months, but I'm probably not going to cave on Chrono Cross (since the plot is byzantine and needs that kind of attention). Also, Cross is a little strange because there's a lot of information we have yet to glean from Ultimania / Missing Piece, as the Compendium is having the hardest time in the world finding a translator. It's to the point that we're considering paying someone to translate all the small Missing Piece notes. I can probably slim down the other FAs' plots, though. Any estimates / tips / advice (not just on the plot section) would be great. Now that Torchic is a failure, it's time to retake the glory. Well, I realize there have been VG articles up since Torchic, but...being dramatic here, eh?

Also, would Radical Dreamers make a small candidate like System Shock? I'm guessing it wouldn't, mainly because there are no critical reviews / sales data available on it whatsoever. Zeality 04:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking through at least Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger, most of the plot is based on in-universe information (direct quotes, or materials released by the game developer specific for the game). By what is being discussed in WP:FICT and WP:WAF is that while in-universe information is great to support the fictional aspect of an article, the notability of such needs to have support from out-of-universe sources. Basically, both are way too long for encyclopedic treatment of the information and should only have enough plot information to discuss the notable aspects of the game that use out-of-universe information (gameplay, development, reception, etc.); this also applies to the character lists as well. It's been a while since I've played Chrono Trigger, but the plot can be summed up (not as susinctly) as "Chrono and his friends must travel through time to prevent a great evil from taking over their world". --Masem 04:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using primary sources for the plot information, as long as no conclusions are drawn beyond what is stated in the source. WP:FICT deals with notability, and to quote from Wikipedia:Notability: "These guidelines pertain to the suitability of article topics but do not directly limit the content of articles.". So as long as there are reliable secondary sources to support the notability of the games, WP:FICT is satisfied. WP:WAF deals more with article content, but it specifically includes plot in its list of things that can be sourced from the primary source. As long as undue weight is not given to the plot summary or other gameplay aspects, it doesn't matter if the sources are primary or secondary.

I think some are taking the plot summary paranoia and "secondary sources for everything" a bit too far. Anomie 12:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, primary sources are fine for the plot, but any out-of-universe notability helps if it can be included (dunno for the above games due to age and lack of secondary references) I think from what I'm seeing happening on WP:FICT is that there's a general consensus, but details are being worked out so guidelines haven't been changed; these will likely changed in the next week or so. So sitting and waiting might be a good idea here. My personal opinion is that that plot summary can be pared down a lot; there's details in the current versions that are not necessary to understand and appreciate that this is an RPG that uses time-travel concepts. I know that the WP Films project has a WP:MOSFILMS plot length guideline suggesting 400-600 words in length. I don't think such a guideline necessary works directly with video games due to the drastic differences between some games that do contain plot in the first plot; what would apply to Gears of War would not apply to Final Fantasy VII, but I think some guidelines based on the type of genre are appropriate (though again, these are guidelines, not requirements, and its always better to be shorter if you can, but a complex FPS may need a bit more plot (such as the case in BioShock). --Masem 12:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Anomie's right. There is nothing wrong with using a work of fiction to source a plot summary of that work of fiction. — Brian (talk) 13:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

List of animals in Zoo Tycoon 2

Should this be sent to AFD? It seems to fall under the same type of listcruft as car/vehicle lists and so on that isn't very acceptable for Wikipedia. It also appears to be game guide content. RobJ1981 07:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Load... Aim... AFD - X201 10:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Indiscriminate information; it wouldn't survive an AfD. Marasmusine 20:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I put it in AFD, if anyone wants to comment. RobJ1981 22:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

AFD→Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of animals in Zoo Tycoon 2

outcome = delete

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Castles II: Siege and Conquest - Not a Windows Game

I noticed that the page for Castles 2 says it's a Windows (and others) game and the requirements says Windows 95 for PC. This isn't true; the game was a DOS game, released in 1992 (which is correct on the page for MacOS, but for PC it says 1995) thus wouldn't require Windows 95. In fact, it doesn't run under Windows 95 very well; you'd have to reboot into DOS mode to make it run correctly.

I suggest we fix it. (I'd have done it, but this Project Video Games thing made it look like I shouldn't do so.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbreaker (talk • contribs)

If your statement is true, then be bold and change it. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm this. Feel free to change anything - this is Wikipedia, after all. The project is to help video game editors, not to hold them back. User:Krator (t c) 07:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Category question

Category:Animal video games: is this needed? It's a bit broad to me. You could classify Sonic (among many others) as animal video games. I'm thinking of sending it to CFD, as a clear case of overcategorization, and it's too broad. What does everyone else think? RobJ1981 04:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

CFD. User:Krator (t c) 07:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

AKA the Zoo Tycoon and Wildlife Park category. CFD - X201 07:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

CFD; far too broad, even humans are technically animals. Haipa Doragon (talk) 16:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I just put it in CFD, if anyone wants to comment. RobJ1981 00:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Possible page to your WikiProject

Heya. I'm not sure how things work around here, but I thought that this page might fall under the umbrella of your project, since Nintendo is featured prominently in the film. Just bringing it to your attention. --UsaSatsui 20:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:VG Requirements

Anyone want to help kick the tires around for Template:VG Requirements, a template to help with personal computer-based system requirements. I currently only have it set to handle one platform type in the box, as making the other versions is just a matter of copy, paste, and replace, but I want to make sure the way the table looks and works for just one platform is going to meet everyone's goals. (Document is on the page as well as an example). --Masem 23:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for comments

I've recently done major edits on Master of Orion, Master of Orion II: Battle at Antares and Space Empires III. Comments would be appreciated.Philcha 23:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The references aren't formatted properly; see this. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 15:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The Gameplay and User Interface sections appear to go into far too much detail per WP:NOT#GUIDE. If you're unsure about the level of detail needed, remove anything which won't be of any use to someone who doesn't intend to or hasn't played the game. Most game articles also have Reception and Development sections - have a look at some video game featured articles to get an idea of how to write these sections.

Additionally, the screenshots uploaded to Space Empires III have the wrong licensing/copyright tag stuff. If the game is, as the article suggests, still sold by the developers (and they hold the copyright), you'll need a fair use rationale as well as the {{Non-free game screenshot}} tag. I may be wrong as it seems to be shareware, though. Una Laguna^Talk 16:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if it is shareware, images would still need {{Non-free game screenshot}} and a rationale unless the shareware license is free or specifies a free license for screenshots. It doesn't look like it does, so unless you request permission from the copyright holders you'll need the non-free tag. Anomie 17:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Empires III wouldn't survive an afd. User:Krator (t c) 18:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Atari Mania links

An anonymous editor has been adding links to http://www.atarimania.com/ to large numbers of game articles without any particular reasoning and without any real attempt to understand WP:EL as far as I can see from the discussion on my page. Any views on whether these links should be kept or removed? Cheers --Pak21 11:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove. User:Krator (t c) 11:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd still add {{subst:uw-spam1}} or {{subst:Blatantspam}} even if it is an anon, so administrators know what they're dealing with if there's a problem in the future, and also so that the editor realizes A)it's SPAM, and B)we've noticed. I'd do it myself, but you haven't named the IP, which is quite tactful of you.~ JohnnyMrNinja 14:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really tactful, but more due to the fact that it's a whole bunch of IP addresses in 217.83.0.0/16 (see my contributions around 11:50 GMT on 4 September). The editor is certainly aware I think it's spam. --Pak21 14:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hit up the local blacklist m:Spam blacklist to stop this madness. Madness? This is Wikipedia! hbdragon88 23:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello guys,

I am the poster of the Atarimania links. I still don't understand why these are regarded as spam. They contain more info per game than Mobygames or World of Spectrum usually do. So what is the point I am missing? Even java.com has a link to our site (http://www.java.com/en/levelup/). Furthermore, Atarimania is a non-commercial project. Again I ask you: what's the problem? Btw., there is no rule that forbids posting as IP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.83.101.74 (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You haven't got any indication that the ROM images on the games pages are there with the copyright owners approval - World of Spectrum (your example) actively searches for copyright holders to get their approval (or not) and publishes their communications with the copyright holders on their site. I can find no such respect of copyright on your page which means that the WP:EL restrictions on linking statement "Sites that violate the copyrights of others" applies. - X201 15:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Alphabetical Order

I have been working on improving the List of PlayStation 2 games, which is in pretty poor condition, but when I looked in WP:STYLE I couldn't find any guidance on alphabetical listings. Should spaces be ignored in this list, or should they come before any letter? Here's an example of what is confusing me: should Starsky & Hutch come before Star Wars or after? New User 02:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Star Wars would go first - I don't know about a guideline, but that's how things are usually done. Dihydrogen Monoxide 02:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I've seen it done both ways- just pick which one you like best and be consistent. --PresN 06:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Tetris & Dr. Mario issues again

As I looked at the article (for the first time in a month or so): I noticed there was some edit warring going on. In late July it was made into a disambig page: then from that point on, it was changed numerous times. The talk page has little activity (no comments since late July), so obviously the editors that were fighting just gave up. In my view: the disambig was just fine, as the game doesn't feature many new things. In my opinion: other collection games should be setup the same way, as there isn't much to say about them besides the usual "This game has these previous games on it" along with a list of them, and brief descriptions that are elsewhere. What does everyone else think? RobJ1981 08:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If it can't be redirected anywhere that makes sense, it should have its own article. I don't quite understand what makes a disambig better than a full article. --Mika1h 08:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps some sort of reception section could be added at least. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of a small article that duplicates content from 2 articles already? It's not a full article, it's a small article that isn't useful. If the games in the compilation were changed a lot: I could understand a normal article. But in this case: there is very little new content. Here is a link to the disambig version: [2]. RobJ1981 01:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the article as it is. Obviously, it doesn't need to explain the gameplay of the two games, but there are little details that are quite informative. In short, I don't see the problem with leaving it as a "fat disambig" as it is.--SeizureDog 06:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyeditor needed for F-Zero

The parts tagged "in-universe", specifically the "Fictional universe" section. A IP has added these tags so I am not quite sure if "F-Zero machines" actually need much work. FMF 18:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• Done, as a final note, if anyone is interested, the "gameplay" section right under "overview" can use some expansion as well as the "criticial reception" section. FMF 17:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Mana series FAC

Further information: [[:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/archive30#"Series" articles FACs|Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/archive30 § "Series" articles FACs]]

Kingdom Hearts (series) has just passed its FA nomination successfully. Mana (series) seems to be on its way to success too, although one objection remains: the article needs copyediting. It would be a shame if its FA nomination fails only because of this, so please consider helping. I copyedited it a bit, but English isn't even my first language and I spent a lot of time on the article since its early days as a stub-class, so it would be great if a pair of "fresh eyes" could look at it. Kariteh 17:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Car Lists in Racing Games

I strongly object to the notion that car lists in racing games are so-called indiscriminate information. The argument that these lists are superfluous because they are interesting just to players of the games (who have other means of learning about the set of cars) is misguided in my view. Yes, such a list is interesting mainly to the players of a game. And that is exactly why such lists should be included.

Just like current, former and prospective future users of a mathematical concept are the main clientele of a maths article, I believe that current, former and prospective future players of a game are the main clientele for an article on a video game. And just as a maths article should cater mainly (but not exclusively) for its main readers, racing game articles should cater mainly (but not exclusively) for the game players.

Some current players of a game have a special interest in these lists, in that they want to learn about real-life characteristics of the cars they drive in the game. Some game guide sites may also provide this information, but this fact alone does not make such a list inappropriate for Wikipedia, in my view. In particular, Wikipedia likely makes it easier than game-guide sites to find high-quality real-world information about the cars. Former players may for example want to look up a car that they remember from a game, but do not remember the exact type of.

Saying that the set of in-game cars is distracting or superfluous is POV, in my view. To say it more strongly, removing existing high-quality, fully-linked car lists strikes me as destructive. Yes, in a paper encyclopedia, I'd say the space used by the lists should better be used otherwise, but this is not a paper encyclopedia. Neither Wikipedia as a whole nor single articles are space-constrained (at least racing game articles are usually comfortably short).

Note also that even if such a list has not been published elsewhere on the web, it is still verifiable, since the game itself is a reliable published source. The fact that some readers have no easy way of verifying it is irrelevant - many printed references are hard to check for many readers, too.

For the players, a Wikipedia article can be the most focused and easy-to-navigate information hub. This is especially true for older games where the community is falling apart, sites vanish or disintegrate and high-quality information becomes hard to come by. And one of Wikipedia's goals is to serve as a long-term knowledge harbor: freely share in the sum of all knowledge.

Wikipedia is there for its readers. Car lists present a convenient and interesting memory and navigation aid for the main readers of racing game articles. Accept no substitutes, Wikipedia is where it's at! --85.180.181.142 22:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe one of the main points is that there's nothing particularly special about the specific cars themselves. Pretty much any difference between cars in various racing games of the same type are going to be cosmetic. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 22:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, 85.180, for your well written opinion. Your arguments were clear, though some were irrelevant or plain false in my opinion. Your first statement is that the fact that these lists primarily appeal to players of the game is precisely why they should be included. The converse is the case: such lists are not suitable for inclusion because of that reason. I will refute your supporting arguments to prove that point.

85.180's first argument is that players of a game should in fact be considered the main audience of an article. This is false. Wikipedia's articles are written to be readable by the so called educated layman. Someone who is educated, but has no specialist knowledge of the field. The mathematical methaphor employed is not true. The main clientèle for mathematical articles are not the users of a mathematical concept, but those who are interested in it, yet have no specialist knowledge (see: WP:MOSDEF). The same applies for game articles: it is not the players we write for, it is those who are interested in a game.

85.180's second argument is based on the utility of the lists. I do not dispute this fact. However, not everything that is useful, has a place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia has limits, covered by WP:NOT. All further arguments put forth above are irrelevant, because of one simple reason: use the alternative. Wikipedia is written for a general audience, but several gaming wikis exist. Those wikis are written for players of the game. No existing high quality list will be removed, because they can be moved, saving the content.

Car Lists are harmless, true. But that does not make them suitable for inclusion. User:Krator (t c) 23:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

PS: User:Melodia's point above is true, but only applies to car lists. The above applies to just about everything listed as bad here.

I just have to also agree to Melodia's comments above: science and math articles can be decreed too technical, just as game articles can be too much like a game guide. There is no problem summarizing that a car game has various vehicles from certain manufactures, but to list every single car without giving context is unnecessary. --Masem 23:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.184.237 (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC) First, I will make it clearer what I want. Yes, such lists are not necessary (with or without context). Very few cars are notable enough to make them a "must write about". When I say "such lists should be included", I mean that removing a high-quality list (even without an introductory paragraph) decreases Wikipedia's quality. Yes, lists should have introductory paragraphs, stating in general terms what kinds of cars are available at what point in the game, what role they play, what else is interesting about them, etc. However, my preference is to leave a "naked" list as it is, an opportunity to add an introduction, rather than remove the information.

Now I will try to counter some of your arguments.

players of a game [are] the main audience... is false. ...to be readable by the so called educated layman. These two are not exclusive. Yes, in my opinion the (somewhat) educated layman should be the target audience of Wikipedia as a whole (not that I'm aware of an explicit policy towards this, to me this is implied by "WP is an ecyclopedia"). Yes, a game article should be easy to read by non-players. However, in my view, most players are still educated laymen with respect to the games that they play (at least as long as they have not finished it), so they are a subgroup of the target audience. And I believe that most of the "reading time" that a game article gets is spent by the game's players (someone has any data on this?). This is why I think that players are the main audience. In your words it is those who are interested in a game - these, I believe, are mostly players.

Harmless - As in mostly harmless, this is derogatory, implying "not even interesting". And this is what I object to. Some of these lists are interesting. Even if they lack some prose, which would admittedly make them interesting to more readers. In some racing game articles, users regularly try to add a car list, only to find it deleted on the grounds of "game guide material". Obviously, these users find the lists interesting enough to spend the time adding them.

Wikipedia is written for a general audience, ... - as a whole, yes, but with respect to an individual article, no. What constitutes the "educated layman" is relative, it varies by article. As you said, the articles are written for people interested in the subject. Furthermore, articles do not have to be homogeneous. Earlier parts of an article should be readable by someone who has no knowledge of the subject. Later sections may cater to special interests.

...but several gaming wikis exist. Those wikis are written for players of the game. This does not preclude Wikipedia from catering to players as well, especially when the interested readers consist mainly of players. Which Wiki to write for is also an issue of trust, longevity and author community fragmentation. I trust wikipedia, a lot (and yes, I have an account, but I don't want to use it for gaming stuff). The chances of long-term survival of editig efforts are higher for Wikipedia than on other Wikis.

No existing high quality list will be removed, because they can be moved, saving the content. A wish not come true. Fully linked, correct lists have been removed, without any suggestion as to where they might be more appropriate.

To potential list deleters I say: Removing a well-formatted, correct list is a disservice to Wikipedia users. Leave the lists there, for others to improve, or even better, improve them yourself. --85.180.184.237 20:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your prompt replay, which prompts me to address the issues you raised. Some simply repeat the arguments put forth in the first note above. I will not further address those arguments. Firstly, concerning your intention, I must note that I fully understand it. However, the main argument behind this intention is not sound: no information is (or at least should be) lost when deleting.

The first and apparently main point of discussion remains the audience of articles related to racing games. We agree that those who are interested in a particular game are the main audience for the article. The conjecture made above is that this audience mainly consists of players. There are two main arguments against this conjecture. Firstly, it is not true, and secondly, if it was true, it would not be irrelevant.

Players are indeed the main group interested in reading about racing games. Other groups are interested as well, for example, parents of (mainly young) players and random curious people. An important fact to recognise here is that of all groups, players are the least likely to use Wikipedia as their source. The vast majority of players mainly read gaming sites, including fansites, gaming wikis and - sites (gamespot etc). They have the same reasons for doing this as molecular biologists who do not use Wikipedia to read about molecular biology. Conversely, parents and random curious people (to expand upon the examples above) would mainly use Wikipedia to read about racing games. Concluding, players, though the main interested group, are not the main audience of Wikipedia articles on the games they play.

Though, I cannot deny there are some racing games players who read the Wikipedia articles on the games they play, and that they might like car lists. The most important point here is that the article should appeal to the common interest, and only to the specific interest groups as far as the shared interest goes. To give some outrageous examples, Wikipedia does not have a "list of scenes parents should skip because of excessive blood" to appeal to the worried parents. Wikipedia does not have a "list of cultural references on bumper stickers in this racing game" to appeal to the trivia seekers. Wikipedia does not write for every specific interest group. Wikipedia writes only that which can reasonably be presumed to be relevant to an encyclopaedia article written for a general educated audience, provided WP:5. Car lists in racing games do not fit the bill.

The argument concerning trust in Wikipedia, and lack of trust in gaming wikis is a logical fallacy commonly called two wrongs make a right. Because gaming wikis happen to be "wrong", it will not make the situation "right" by doing another "wrong" thing: including the information in Wikipedia. On the deletion of high quality lists, this is a failure of the process, not in the policy. I am confident that any administrator would be happy to undelete a high quality list to facilitate moving the information to a gaming wiki. One could even consider making a WP:BOTREQ on this, making a list of closed AfDs that did not transwiki properly.

To any potential list deleters, I say, this day we rescue a world from mysticism and tyranny, and usher in a future brighter than anything we could imagine. User:Krator (t c) 22:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

There is gaming wikis, and I would imagine some enjoy listing cars (along with any and all other vehicle lists, item lists, weapon lists and so on). I suggest those as an alternative. I don't edit gaming wikis, so I'm not sure which allow that type of content. This issue has been brought up numerous times on Wikipedia though. Wikipedia simply isn't a guide to every little note on video games, which is why we don't list cheats for games, vehicle lists and other things. RobJ1981 03:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

An important fact to recognise here is that of all groups, players are the least likely to use Wikipedia as their source. - Until someone presents me with the data that I explicitly asked for, to me this is not a fact, it is a conjecture. By the way, I think it is true, by a small margin. However, even if it were known to be true, players may still be the main audience. "least likely" means that the ratio of players that go to WP vs. players that go elsewhere is lower than the ratio of non-players that go to WP vs. non-players that go elsewhere. This is not what we are discussing. What we want to know is the ratio of players that read an article vs. the number of non-players that read it. And this ratio also depends on the ratio of total players vs. total non-players that read about the article's topic, anywhere. Rephrased in math:

P:= Players; N:= Non-Players; W:=Who prefer Wikipedia; E:=Who prefer elsewhere
P_W/P < N_W/N !=> P_W < N_W

I believe P >> N, so that P_W > N_W.

Regarding "two wrongs": this does not apply in my view because in my view the second statement "lists are OK" is true. As an aside, an example of a nice gaming wiki that went bad is the game innovation database.

There are two main arguments against this conjecture. Firstly, it is not true, - Interesting argumentation method here. and secondly, if it was true, it would not be irrelevant. - Surely you are joking? Relevancy of a conjecture that turns out to be true is an argument against the conjecture? Good night.

--85.180.180.195 23:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption article in need of work

It needs a bit of work. The plot should be condensed and cleaned. Also, what should be done about the development section? The making of a game is important, but I personally don't think it should be that big. The game is popular and a big Nintendo title: but that doesn't justify huge sections that could be condensed. Anyone willing to help? RobJ1981 05:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I can help improve the plot once I'm done with the game, but I don't think the development section is bad, it's actually a good length (particularly once you cut down the plot) for a modern game. --Masem 05:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I just tackled it (I'm a 91% in game, I'm not worried about spoilers *grin*), and got that down to 4 paragraphs for the plot. Probably could be trimmed a tad it more. --Masem 05:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the Voice cast section really necessary? Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 06:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The Super Mario 64 (former FA) included it, so I included it on Super Princess Peach (former GA on my own accord both for nom/delisting). I guess it could be removed. At the very least delete the voice actors without context – that is, the ones that don't list who they voiced. hbdragon88 20:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The question to ask is, is the voice work or voice cast notable outside of the game? (this applies to all examples above). It would be one thing if a significant celebrity was voicing a character, but if it's the usual no-namers or regular players, it can probably be dropped. --Masem 20:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::Thanks for that. By the way, does anybody else feel that the gameplay section is rather... inadequate? I've mentioned on the talk page about the lack of any mention of scanning. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC) D'oh. Wrong game. I'm thinking of Metroid Prime. Sorry. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I would normally group all the common features of a series into the series page (this being Metroid (series) in this case) and then {{see also}} to that, such that the gameplay summarizes the existing and briefly discusses the new features. But remember, just like plot, the gameplay should be limited to notable features that make sense to a non-gamer that will likely never ever play the game. Yes, scanning is important, it should be noted, but I think the size of the gameplay section is actually a tad long? maybe... --Masem 18:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

{{Cite video game}}

Are there official guidelines regarding the use of this template? In particular, I would like to know how character quotes should be formatted (Character: text). Apparently, a lot of articles put the character name in bold then the text in regular font (Character: text); however, this directly clashes with the Wikipedia guidelines WP:MOSBOLD. Since MOSBOLD is a guideline rather than a policy, I suppose we could continue using bold font in VG articles if this usage were one of our guidelines, but I've seen it written nowhere in the project's manual of style pages. Thoughts? I'm asking this because of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mana (series) by the way. Kariteh 09:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No comment? I'm sure I'll upset many people if I start removing these bold font from all the quotes used in video game articles, so please say something. Kariteh 21:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I dislike the bold face used for the character names when citing something said by a specific character. This is bad per WP:MOSBOLD, so a change would definitely have my support. User:Krator (t c) 00:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Halo: Combat Evolved, Halo 2, Final Fantasy VII, VIII IX and X, Metal Gear Solid... most use bold text because otherwise the transcripts are incredibly hard to read for quotes. Incidentally, basically no one uses the quote= paremeter of {{Cite video game}}, because it places it last in the citation, which is extremely unhelpful. David Fuchs ^(talk) 00:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest changing the placement of the quote, then. Maybe replace the bold face with underlining? User:Krator (t c) 00:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Underlining is forbidden in the same guideline because "it may be confused with links on a web page." Kariteh 09:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do here is to forget it. As it's a guideline, and in the interests of clarity, I think it's safe to ignore. After all, it's in the references section anyhow, so it's out of the way. David Fuchs ^(talk) 18:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Gamer

Gamer should be one of the central articles in the scope of our wikiproject. In light of the recent AfD, perhaps we should collaborate on tarting it up with some references, et cetera, and get it out of Start class. I will be digging out my stack of Edge magazines. Marasmusine 11:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm really not in the mood for working on it now, but I dumped a PR on the talk page, in case anybody is interested. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 23:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This article would have made a good GCOTW... However, since User:Thunderbrand has left Wikipedia and I am no longer capable of maintaining the GCOTW the collaboration has ended for now. Is there anyone here that would be willing to maintain the GCOTW process? It only means updating a couple of templates once a week and pruning expired entries, as explained in the update guide? Any takers? If someone comes forward who is willing to do the work for the next few months we could restart the collaboration. Personally I feel that having a weekly collaboration was a good thing, especially on articles like this... JACOPLANE • 2007-09-15 01:47

I'd be happy to jumpstart GCOTW. I've prolly got the time to update it at least once daily, I'd just need to familiarize myself with the process. David Fuchs ^(talk) 00:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Best games of all time

What would be the best way to create a page like this? I think there was one, but it was deleted or merged somewhere. There has to be an encyclopedic way to make such an article/list. Judgesurreal777 20:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a very subjective topic for an article - where do you draw the line on what is a "best" game? Perhaps sticking to articles such as Interactive Achievement Awards, Game Critics Awards or Game Developers Choice Awards (or see Category:Video game awards) is preferable? --Oscarthecat 21:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There are things like Famitsu#All Time Top 100 by the readers. I guess a list could be compiled that took lists from different sources. We could take all-time ratings from things like metacritic, but those are based on online reviews and would be biased towards recent games. JACOPLANE • 2007-09-14 21:26

The better question is "Do we need such a page?" --Masem 21:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Video games notable for negative reception :/ Kariteh 21:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

A fairly steady stream of games have been called the "best ever" - I'm sure it would be much easier to source than Video games notable for negative reception will be if it gets moved back to List of video games considered the worst ever. Miremare 00:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, we have top selling, notably negative reception. so those are covered....how about video games notable for most positive reception or most award winning, or an article about important games in the history of gaming, such as Mario 64, starfox, etc, focusing on the technological progression in gaming. Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 00:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Better, but still possibly open for POV issues. Framing it around other publications that are generally considered authorities on the subject would be better, IMO. ("Technological breakthroughs as reported in ...", etc.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Per Judgesurreal777 we could make use of Films considered the greatest ever as a good example. Well sourced, avoids the POV element too. --Oscarthecat 09:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

So, Video games considered the greatest ever would include top rated games in terms of awards, in terms of notable magazines and game makers, and technological progress. How would that fair do you think? Judgesurreal777 20:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You may want to be carful making this list. One that had a similar title was deleted a few months back. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Video games that have been considered the greatest ever. I am not sure how this proposed version would compare to that list but it may be a good idea to attempt to verify that they are not too similar or the proposed page may be speedly deleted. 67.71.78.51 23:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Weird (disappearing) image size problem

I'm getting a weird problem on the Sega Mega Drive and the Sega Mega-CD articles. The images of the consoles are not displaying, all other articles that use tamplate VG system are OK except for the two Sega articles, if I drop the image size by a couple of px the images reappear. Might be some problem with images that are coming over from Wikimedia but could some one have a quick look to see if they have the same problem, thanks. - X201 22:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The images are not appearing for me either. In fact, I have seen similar instances on other wikipedia articles over the past couple days (can't remember any particular article though). New User 22:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, no images. I saw the same thing with some other images yesterday, but those seem to have righted themselves now, so it's obviously nothing to worry about. Miremare 22:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a problem with the servers, I hear the developers are aware of it. The problem is that the cached thumbnails are being corrupted somehow; changing the size works because it makes the system create a new thumbnail. You can open up the image page (you may have to go to commons) and purge it to make the system regenerate all the thumbnails for that image, but be forewarned I've heard the corruption may recur later due to the aforementioned problem. Anomie 23:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I purged it and it restored the image but it only lasted for a couple of hours and then went again. - X201 21:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Computer Mags

There's been a few external links added for the site http://www.old-computer-mags.com/ recently. Looking at the site, I'm unsure whether the scans are copyright infringing. The front page makes reference to Creative Commons licensing, but no statement from the publisher is present. Should such links be removed until this is clear? --Oscarthecat 18:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi all, i'm one of editor of this site, i have received a response of all the publisher of magazine, if the site is not commercial and if the site no have banner, i go to publish the scans. Excuse for englivush :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.222.216 (talk • contribs)

Okay, that's great news. Could you provide details of the confirmation from the publisher - please forgive my suspicious nature, but we've had less genuine people make similar claims before. Many thanks. --Oscarthecat 20:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I would be extremely suspicous here. At least according to Your Sinclair Rock'n'Roll Years, who I know to have made many attempts to contact the people involved with this, the copyright to many of the articles in at least Your Sinclair are held by both the publisher and the author (many of whom were freelancers), so there's no way the publisher could even give this permission. Above and beyond that, the licensing on the front page is inconsistent (licensed under cc-by, but claiming no commercial use), and the whois information for the site is clearly falsified (registered by Clive Sinclair, apparently). None of this strikes me as a legal venture. Cheers --Pak21 20:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the info Pak21, much appreciated. Just to be safe for now, I've removed the references to this http://www.old-computer-mags site from each of the articles. Once we've got some concrete information from 87.9.222.216 we can get them reinstated. --Oscarthecat 21:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

hi all, the site is totally amatorial, i need a super mega contract in home page for your sinclair ? i have write to the chief operating officer based on bath BA12BW monmouth street of FUTURE UK and i receiv a response positive, wiki have more and more link to WOS and Amiga magazine rack, your legal info where is ? i search in site .... bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.4.223.232 (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty suspicious about this too. Future Publishing at least is pretty well-known for jealously guarding its property. It entered into lenghty legal goings-on with AP2 for instance (for reproducing images or text from Amiga Power), and stopped zzapp64.co.uk distributing scans of its magazines. Have they suddenly changed their minds about this kind of thing? A quick email to someone at future.co.uk would probably answer this conundrum in no time. Any takers? Miremare 03:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No. You must write to all of Future Publishing (who own the copyright in the layout and a few other bits), the authors of the articles (who own the copyright to the text itself) and the games companies (who own the copyright to the adverts) and receive positive responses from each and every one. Everything else is a copyright violation; it is irrelevant whether your site is amateur, or whether links to other copyright infringing sites exist on Wikipedia or not. You should also read Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines, which strongly discourage linking to a site with which you are associated. It's not worth wasting Future's time with an e-mail here in my opinion; if permission has been obtained, let the editors of the site show it. --Pak21 07:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi there - I'm the webmaster of the YSRnRY site which has been dedicated to archiving Your Sinclair articles over the past ten years, and have personally been in contact with over 40 people, writers and managers, who used to work on YS.

To reinforce pak21's point, and also stir things up a bit, let me say that the YS copyright situation is even murkier than pak21 points out. Broadly speaking, copyrights for each individual article are split into three categories:

Those owned by the publisher of the time (opinions differ on what transferred between Dennis and Future publisher)

Those printed under a first-publishing basis, meaning once published in YS, the authors have sole copyrights on the work.

Those whose copyrights are shared between publisher and author.

For some articles, opinions differ on which articles fall into what category. Some authors didn't have contracts. Others had contracts which were altered by hand using a pencil during some stage of the transaction. About the only solid fact is that the answer to the question "who owns the copyright on this?" is "not you".

So, I've taken the middle path - republishing articles on my website whilst simultaneously tracking down authors to get their permission, regardless of whether it is needed. I've been in contact with Future, but whilst willing to say things off-the-record, doing things properly and tracking down who owns what is an exercise that costs time and money with little (in fact, none IMHO) return to them. Currently the percentage of approved content on my website is 88%, and I'm currently following a lead on a very prolific YS writer that may push that over 90%. It's perhaps not legally watertight, but everyone involved appears to be happy with it. -- Nick

84.92.148.12 14:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

hi all, first ,future stop zzap64 site... this site SELL a dvd of ys magazine this is not good. the copyright of article is of future not for author, i have contact future and other publisher (more italian magazine in site). Wos and amiga magazine rack have contacted all the publisher and all the author ? if not... plz leave our site from wiki else wiki is a apartheid site. bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.222.113 (talk) 12:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You have a somewhat overinflated opinion of your site if you think that not linking to it is any way comparable to denying human rights to 90% of the population for 40-odd years. --Pak21 12:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove on sight until if and when copyright concerns are sorted - then the site can be added on a case by case basis by editors who do not have a COI. --Fredrick day 13:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

ok ok, my site is not for wiki link, other site ? World of Spectrum --> 118 different magazine type scans, inlay scans, games tape copy Amiga magazine rack --> 25.000 pages scans of different magazine Zzap64 --> full Zzap64 all issue scans Lemon64 --> big database of inlay of games scans C64 Preservation --> copy of games of c64 in disk Project64 --> Text copy of old manual videogames .... and more .....bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.222.113 (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not a debate about those sites; it is a debate about Old Computer Mags. Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS --Pak21 16:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

i read.... my site is only with the permission ... my site is only not accepted in wiki... good think ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.222.113 (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please actual provide some evidence you have this permission you are claiming, particularly with reference to the YSRnRY webmaster's comments above about how Future don't own the rights to at least some of the content. --Pak21 16:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

i have no more time, i think wiki it was various, excuse me, i not insert my site now and in future, if other insert a link in my site leave immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.222.113 (talk) 16:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Help with a name change

Nights: Journey of Dreams was recently moved to NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams despite a clear consenus on the first game's talkpage not to use the spelling NiGHTS and noting even remotly close to a consensus to change the second games talk page. I am not regestered so I can't move it. I am asking help to move the page due to there being no consensus to move it and the fact that the current name is a clear violation of the mostm. --69.156.205.15 03:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put up a request to move the pages back to their original pages over at Wikipedia:Requested moves. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 07:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

And further, left a warning over at the mover's talk page to discuss moveso n the talk page before doing them first. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 07:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Call of Duty 3

Does anyone think it would be appropriate to add a playable weapons list to the Call of Duty 3 article? Please respond and sign! NYyankees51 23:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You're not going to get much help asking here, where most of the visibly active editors are against such lists, with good policy-based reasons. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 00:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Please note that this discussion has been forwarded as a result of the arguments on NYyankees51's talk page and on my talk page. NYyankee51's arguments claim that the weapons are notable and are interesting. NYyankees51 also presents as confusing argument that a video game article without extensive lists is like a Ford article without a full car list. Ford doesn't have a car list, and no new arguments or sources have been provided to support further debate. --Scottie_theNerd 03:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe parts of that might be on my talk page, alsoDurinsBane87 03:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a guide on a game's guns. Una Laguna^Talk 06:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

No lists of weapons, ever. For an article to work against, see Call of Duty 2 (Yes, I took it to GA) - No weapon lists there. Check what it does have, add that to CoD3's article, and you'll be well on your way :) Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 07:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Weapons are only notable if they represent some advance in in-game physics or influenced the design of other games. I think the gravity gun in half-life 2 is held up as an example of this. Shotguns that go BOOM and machineguns that go RATATATATATA ? forget it, We've had those types of lists previously and they were AFD'd on sight... and will be again. --Fredrick day 08:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, idea is right, the reason is somewhat off. Weapons are notable if secondary sources (reliable verifiable sources not connected to the in-game universe) provide notable coverage of said weapons, not just because they are "important". HL2's Gravity Gun still qualifies, but most of the other HL2 weapons (sans crowbar) aren't.

That said, if the number of weapons is very brief and can be written as a single line of prose without weighting the article down, I think it's ok to include it. Even moreso, a very brief single sentence in gameplay to describe the general type of weapondry if none of it is notable is still appropriate if only to help the reader understand the types of weapons the shooter may have. For CoD3, this could be a line like "The historical weapons in the game include pistols (such as EX1), rifles (EX2), machine guns (EX3), and grenades." (where EX1 is some of the weapons). Again, that gives enough of a flavor that "Oh, hey, there's guns based on real guns in this game" comes out, without overexhausting the user with unnecessary details of every single weapon.

But a straight up weapons list better be well justified and notable otherwise it will be nixed quickly. --Masem 13:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Providing specific examples seems unnecessary compared to a simple statement of what type of items/weapons are in the game. Singling out examples has the connotation that they are somehow individually notable, which in most cases is untrue. There's nothing wrong with a general "This game utilises real-world modern weaponry, including submachine guns, assault rifles and sniper rifles" — actual description varying with the game. Once you start with examples, you open the door to the whole shebang of in-game minutiae. --Scottie_theNerd 13:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

See #Car Lists in Racing Games above for an extensive discussion. User:Krator (t c) 12:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)