Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

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A form of natural attrition?

I must say I do like the idea of an unfettered choice of subject matter at FAC - something like some sort of Freudian free association as to what wikifolks really want to give a spit 'n' boot polish too to polish up to FAC. Pop culture is today's version of folklore, fables and mythology so I have no problem with Simpsons as I do with ancient material.

But I digress; there is so much passing through FAC that I wonder if by choosing something too obscure one is dooming a FA candidate article to failing or at least delaying passing as it raises less interest than a more accessible one..and that as FAC gets busier this may be more apparent (or maybe I am just putting 1 & 1 together and getting 3....)...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many editors who state that any article can reach FA status, but I don't believe that's the case. I absolutely believe there are hundreds if not thousands of topics which are too obscure to be successful at FAC in its current form. Considering the small percentage of the community which weighs in on any FAC, and considering the lack of experts or organization within portions of the community, there's no way many FACs receive the attention (or recognition) they deserve. Choosing an obscure topic may well doom a FAC, depending on just how obscure the topic is. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, obscure topics may find it easier to get through FAC, as there are less experts able to find faults with them. Epbr123 (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Obscurity isn't the only thing that limits FAC reviews - accessibility also plays its part. Consider the current review on Ulysses (poem): most definitely not obscure, but not a subject people feel comfortable commenting on, for whatever reason. It seems to me that some of the more "high brow" articles suffer from inattention through FAC just as much as obscure articles do. Generally, the more traditional encyclopaedia subjects tend to attract reviews from a small subset of editors who are interested in that area (science, classical EngLit, MilHist etc), while the pop culture stuff attracts a lot of comment. Epbr makes a good point on expertise too - the aforementioned categories tend to attract fewer reviews than pop culture, but those reviews are typically much more detailed and critical than the "fancruft" (excuse the nasty phrase), simply because the reviewers have a passion for the subject. Being an "expert" on the Simpsons is a damned sight easier than being an expert on the works of Tennyson. Hmm, I'm not sure what the point I was trying to make was, but here it is anyway ;) Carre (talk) 17:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Firsfron, but the question for me is: What's the best way to object to an article about a subject which is too obscure to be an FA? Is there some part of the criteria which can be invoked most effectively? The best I can come up with is objecting on the basis of "not comprehensive enough" – surely this is a pretty subjective perspective, and I can't help feeling like I'm using a bit of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. – Scartol • Tok 20:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a difficult issue that goes to the heart of what Wikipedia is. When I took Norte Chico civilization through FAC, I was quite convinced that I knew more about the topic than any Wikipedian going. Because I'm an archeologist or because the material is particularly complex? No, on both counts—it just seemed unlikely that any other conscientious amateur had read through the English language material as precisely as I had, on a subject so obscure. (It would only take you a day.) With the exception of one involved reviewer, the FAC was underwhelming.

What would have made it better? A subject matter expert—which, again, goes to the heart of Wikipedia. We don't bar subject matter experts, of course, but we don't have a process that requires them to look at an article. I would love nothing more than an actual archeologist looking at the Norte Chico article. Now, Nupedia failed because of clunky peer review (Citizendium will fail for the same reason) and Wikipedia has succeeded because it swore off expert reliance. I applaud that—I'm here for that reason. But maybe we might rope them in again to look on a lower order of magnitude at our best (and the main links to our best, which are often lacking)? Something above FA? I don't know. But I do think we should stop talking about quantity and start talking about the quality of what is already here. Marskell (talk) 21:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The vast majority of "actual archaeologists" may well not not know any more about the Norte Chico than you do. Why should they, unless they'd taken the time to specifically study that civilisation? Given a sufficiently obscure subject, almost anyone can become the world's leading expert in a matter of days, no previous training required. The Zulu Principle. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 01:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel something has to be pretty exacting or specific for there to be insufficient material for FA status - even then this can be fixed sometime by broadening the scope a wee bit. As well there is the structure and form of the article which can be viewed under hierarchy of headings and/or prose. Sometimes things just come out 'wonky' and need to be reworked. Happened first time I nominated Stegosaurus and also with K-T exticntion recently.

The reason I like the free flow of articles on all sorts of subjects is that it is fascinating to see what people write about as important to them, rather than some patronising view as to what is importnat or vital. Amusing also to see the similarities and differences between the top 500 viewed articles and the vital article list. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we're talking about two different things: some of us are saying that an article may be too obscure, where others are saying a subject may be too obscure. While I don't disagree with the former, I do with the latter. It's easy enough to get caught in the trap of writing too technically, alienating your readership. But in an encyclopedia read and edited by millions of users, there probably are very few articles which have an overly obscure topic. It's just that FAC is based on consensus, and with few people weighing in on many FACs, there isn't much consensus to promote, meaning one or two out-of-process objects can derail a FAC.

Say what you will about Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Norte Chico civilization, but despite the relatively small number of people weighing in, at least there were quite a few insightful comments. Compare that to Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Styracosaurus, which did not receive any meaningful commentary. There was a PR and a Scientific Peer Review, luckily. But with Scientific Peer Review now defunct, and Peer Review now reduced almost entirely to automated suggestions from bots, articles aren't getting the attention they require, either from the experts or from outside editors.

Getting back to the idea of obscure subjects, in a truly NPOV encyclopedia, Styracosaurus would receive roughly the same number/quality of reviews as Tyrannosaurus. Of course, that fails drastically in practice: T. rex is just better-known (to the public) than Styracosaurus:. And I know better than to even bother submitting some FACs on more obscure dinosaurs: no one's ever heard of them, and they won't receive good (or any) reviews. I don't think it's likely that there will ever be a Triassic dinosaur FA: outside of the WP:DINO editors, no one's ever heard of Herrerasaurus, Massospondylus, or Plateosaurus, and these articles seem likely never to make it higher than GA. this was the actual "scientific peer review" for Herrerasaurus, left open for over four months in the vain hope that someone -- anyone -- would comment. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I disagree about those triassic dino FAs - the only one which has had a collaborative workout is Herrerasaurus which has gone a bit pear-shaped. I haven't looked at the others recently but all these are meaty enough to become FAs. Gawd Firs, yer gettin' all pessimistic all of a sudden..at least there are some active editors in WP dinos, compared with WP Fungi it's a wealth of talent, enough of whom are keen to point out things and assess at FAC to allow Raul to see there is a consensus of support (though outside input is always much appreciated).cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not at all pessimistic about WP:DINO, Cas. These articles, however, are not getting reviews from the WP community, at any level of review. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Styracosaurus received 5 comments in early June, only three from outside the WikiProject. Wikipedia:Peer review/Daspletosaurus/archive1 received only one comment in mid-June, none from outside the WikiProject. Wikipedia:Peer review/Massospondylus received only the one automated comment in early November. As linked above, the Herrerasaurus peer review remained uncommented-on for four months. The numbers are trending downward: based on these figures, future dinosaur PR and FA attempts may deteriorate to 0 comments (PR is already at 0). Back when WP:DINO was collaborating on the more "exciting" dinosaurs, we had decent reviews. But now that we're working on more obscure animals, the commentary has dropped to nil. Firsfron of Ronchester 11:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

100-FACs soon

Right now there are 97 FACs on the list. I recall when there used to be no more than 40 or so. Some have been there since Sept. I don't recall us ever hitting the 100-FACs at once limit before. I can't help but wonder if Raul654 is overtaxed on his FA director duties.Sumoeagle179 (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

We've hit and surpassed 100 quite a few times in the last few months; Raul is letting FACs go longer than he used to. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember, there were about 130 or so FACs before the last facification. And this has happened in the past also, if I remember correctly. DSachan (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

But is the current trend because Raul has less time to spend on it or some other reason? Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. Probably Sandy should shed some light on it. I was also wondering it last time. DSachan (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Because allowing more time means more issues are being addressed during FAC and more articles can ultimately succeed to FA status. If you look at many articles at the bottom of the list, you'll see that if Raul had to close sooner, many of them would fail. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that such a bad thing? It seems like a lot of articles get posted to FAC which need to be more thoroughly peer-reviewed first. The FAC process, IMO, ought to be a relatively simple up-or-down vote, with some minor discussions about dashes or image sizes if needed. Instead, I see people nominating articles in order to find out what they should work on. I've thought it might be good to have something on the FAC page about how this isn't a peer-review process.

I was very lucky to have Awadewit guide me through my first FAC, and she stressed the need for multiple PRs and thorough going-over before annoying people with Honoré de Balzac. I see the FAC flood as a problem stemming in part from an overload of people shooting in the dark for the star, and then scrambling to fix things on the fly when people oppose.

Maybe it's just me. – Scartol • Tok 23:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

It could be both reasons. PR is pretty much a waste of time--lots of articles don't even get looked at. The longer the FAC list gets, the less time the few reviewers we have spend on each article. I see the concern with Raul654, simply because of the time it takes to do all his wiki jobs, it's no doubt for him equivalent to a full time job. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If every FAC reviewer will try to do one Peer review daily, PR could regain usefulness, and articles would come to FAC better prepared. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

But they don't, so let's deal in reality here. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Aawww give it a chance, there's just been a big overhaul 'n' all...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

what big overhaul? — Rlevse • Talk • 13:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that's a valid concern. I have never been convinced by the rather opaque FA system (no clear time limit, no explanation for the decision), depending as it does on the judgement of one person who will inevitably find himself increasingly over-worked as the volume of nominations increases. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 01:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll be archiving it in the near future (like tomorrow or Monday). Raul654 (talk) 05:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The PR overhaul is being discussed at Wikipedia:Content review/workshop. Marskell (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Delegation

I know people have been saying for some time now that I need to delegate some of the work I do here. I have said that I didn't feel like it was too much, and that I didn't need a deputy. Well, with trends in FAC (towards ever more nominations - 100+ at a time now), I've re-evaluated my position on the matter, and I've come to the conclusion that I do need some help.

To that end, I've decided to name user:SandyGeorgia as my proxy here. The role will be essentially equivalent for the FAC to what Marskell and Joel31 do on FAR - she'll close nominations as either successful or unsuccessful, and interpret policies about what an article should or should not contain, and what is and is not an actionable objection - all just the same as I would. I don't intend to delegate the FAC as much as I do the FAR - I'll still be doing a significant portion of the promotions, but the job has become too big for one person to do it on a voluntary basis. It's possible that a second person might not be enough to break the logjam here - so I'm keeping open the possibility of having a third person do it. (I already have someone in mind.)

Lastly, succession issues come up from time to time. People ask me what will happen if I go on vacation or get hit by a bus. The FA director essentially has three big jobs - FAC, FAR, and scheduling the main page. (On those occasions when I do take a vacation, I can schedule FAs for the main page ahead of time and the FAC is robust enough to be unattended alone for a few days) If the worst should happen to me (knock on wood), I expect that Marskell could handle the FAR and Sandy the FAC. I haven't decided what to do about the main page scheduling - I consider that at some future juncture. Raul654 (talk) 20:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it was a wise decision, and a wise choice. Woodym555 (talk) 20:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Not that we're voting, but Sandy has my confidence. Pagrashtak 20:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Great pick, hopefully this will help a little with everything. David Fuchs ^(talk) 20:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Very sensible. The Land (talk) 20:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a wise decision and a wise choice in SandyGeorgia, but I still have process questions. Is Sandy an admin who has garnered the confidence of the community on at least the occasion of her RfA? Or is she being picked for this important role just by Raul (and if so, is that customary)? Also, Sandy is active in (and extremely valuable to) the FAC process, whereas as far as I have seen, Raul doesn't weigh in on reviews. Does this new job mean that Sandy will need to stop participating in so many FACs? If not, does her participation as someone who closes them represent a conflict of interest? I'm not sure what the customs are, so I look forward to hearing what people have to say. --Melty girl (talk) 21:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Melty. I've never wanted to be an admin, and have turned down RfA offers more times than I can remember. But I can assure you that conflict of interest, or even the remote appearance of conflict of interest, is a huge issue for me. The good thing about having more than one person to promote/archive is that it means that I don't have to close any nomination that I have participated in; those can be left to Raul. If I get involved in a given FAC (which is becoming less and less lately), I would not consider it appropriate that I close it. That would extend to FAR, since I'm active at both places; that is, if I have promoted an article that later comes to FAR, I'll have to stand down at FAR. I would further be very reluctant to close any nomination that wasn't pretty clear cut, leaving those to Raul. I see my role as helping to tame the backlog, focusing on the most straightforward. I hope to be of some help, and am honored to have the um, additional work :-) Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Sandy, that really clarifies things on COI. The only question I really have now is if it's consistent with WP values for you to be picked for this just by Raul, even though I think you're right for the job. Or perhaps this is the informal consensus process right here? I do support the idea. --Melty girl (talk) 21:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think Sandy should have to be an admin. Admins have a lot of things to do and tend to get spread thin, which we don't want. I think a person can be respected without an RfA. At least, I certainly hope so. There are a lot of admins I would be very opposed to for this job, however their RfA might have been. Also, I like how Sandy does reviews a lot. I'd encourage her to continue, personally. I find her opinions non-biased and based on the criteria, although it may give her an unhealthy amount of weight in FAC discussions. Hmmm... Wrad (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does being an admin even come into this? None of the admin tools are needed to close FACs. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to admin tools. I was referring to the fact that this seems to be a job of major importance, yet the person being picked to do it was picked by one other person. There's no WP community function for evaluating the proposed person and consensing outside of this discussion. It seemed unusual to me, so I brought up the RfA simply because I thought if Sandy was an admin it would be an indication of widespread community trust in her. I didn't mean to imply it was a requirement for the job necessarily, but instead was pointing out that there didn't seem to be a community role in creating this new position. --Melty girl (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah! Understood. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sandy is an excellent choice. No doubt Sandy is qualified to do the job well. --Aude (talk) 00:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Question: as Raul was elevated on a talk page vote, okay !vote, almost 3 years ago, where does it say, if anywhere, what the policy is, if there is one at all, that FA positions are infinite? Arbitrators get elected on a periodic basis, so I'm wondering just what is the situation with FA director and assisitant, are these infinite positions or what? I'd simply like to know. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Policy, such as it exists where featured articles are concerned, has been done by a mixture of personal fiat by myself and community consensus. Nowhere does it say that the term is infinite, but at the same time, nowhere does it say that it is not infinite either.
  • Where the FAC and FAR decisions are concerned, it is important (if not paramount) that the decisions be consistent. That is to say, it is important that the people doing the promotion are using the same playbook, so to speak. And for that reason, I consider the FA director's proxies to be analogous to members of the president's cabinet -- they serve at his pleasure. If Sandy is consistently making bad decisions, I'll replace her. (Not that I see the need to -- I picked her, in part, because we agree so often) Raul654 (talk) 02:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree sandy's a fine choice. I just thought it odd FA director is not a set term. By the logic you used, arbitrators should have indefinite terms too, so rulings are consistent. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrators do technically have indefinite terms; we serve at Jimbo's pleasure. It's just that he happens to like annual appointments. ;-) Kirill 04:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If either of them did something stupid, we could boot them out. I'm still waiting... :) Wrad (talk) 03:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The current system is working well. I nominate them my 2nd and 3rd most favorite benevolent dictators! -Ravedave 04:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Very good choice indeed! Kirill 04:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I trust both Mark to make this decision and Sandy to carry out the work. I also hope that this is the first step in a massive conspiracy to convince Sandy to accept the mop, ostensibly to help out with TFA creation and protection. ;) - BanyanTree 04:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

FWIW I support Mark's move for Sandy here. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• I feel quite free to say things I'm sure have been said by scores before me. :-) I've always been very deeply perplexed and mildly concerned by the lifetime position Raul seems to have as FA director. Nothing against Raul, I solemnly swear. It's just that choosing a new one every one or two years seems far more community-based to me.
• Having said that, and feeling relatively confident that this system is not going to be changed this week, I have no hesitations about supporting Sandy as Raul #2. ;-) Ling.Nut (talk) 13:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to add support for the decision. SandyGeorgia's the obvious choice. Epbr123 (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• SandyGeorgia is an excellent choice for this much needed position. I can't think of a better, more suitable candidate. And Sandy, you're not already an admin? Go for it, I think you'd be a great addition to the mop-corps! Dreadstar † 22:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerns

While I do not object, in general, to SandyGeorgia becoming the FA assistant, I question the method by which she acquired the position. No one voted on this and no one got any input; it was an arbitrary decision by a single person. Personally, I don't agree with some of the decisions SandyGeorgia has made and her opinions on certain subjects. I know I am not alone. That said, my opinion may not be the majority and I am perfectly willing to accept a consensus one way or the other. While administrator status need not be a requirement, the community's approval is. I suggest some sort of discussion prior to beginning her duties where people can ask questions and get answers before we decide on additional assistance for Raul (and yes, I agree you could use some help, Raul) — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Nomination by Raul followed by the above talkpage discussion strikes me as a perfectly suitable way to choose an assistant. --Carnildo (talk) 08:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sandy appears to have the community's approval, or at least the approval of the community who cares enough to watch and discuss on this page—that is, the community relevant to the position. Having a discussion is usually beneficial, and in fact has already been happening in this thread, with questions about how Sandy will avoid conflicts of interest. BQZip01, if you have concerns or want a clarification, I'd say ask away right here. Pagrashtak 15:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

My question here, again why is FA/FAR/FAC not subject to community input while arbcom, etc is? No offense to all the work Raul has done, but this strikes me as decidedly unwiki. I commend his work in the FA area and all the other work he does, but I simply think the community should have input to FA director selection and maybe the assistants to, just like at RFA, RFB, Arbcom, etc. Raul himself became FA director on a talk page vote, so there there is precedent for this community input in this area. Arbcom has yearly elections, on rotating 3-yr terms as I understand it. I think we should give consideration to a similar process here in the FA area. If the FA director, just like at arbcom gets reelected, that's fine, but at least there has been community input on it. Again, I have no ill will to Raul654 at all and commend all his great work, but I feel we should look at options in this area. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's do a vote, then. How do we organize it? Wrad (talk) 19:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

By "vote", I'm sure you mean "a discussion by which we may reach consensus", right? Pagrashtak 19:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really. At least, "vote" is the best word to describe what goes on at RfA. Call it something else if it makes you feel better. Here's a [description of how it's done. Wrad (talk) 19:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that—I just didn't realize you wanted an actual vote. Pagrashtak 20:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not like there is no community involvement. If Raul did not have the support of a strong consensus of people involved in the FA area, he would not be FA director. There is no reason to bureaucratise things yet further. The Land (talk) 20:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the logic of making an exception to the procedures laid down in other similar areas of wikipedia for the FA director and his or her assistants? I agree with Wrad. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 20:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the logic in applying a procedure developed in one area of Wikipedia to another quite different area? RfA was not developed because everyone sudddenly decided they wanted every area of Wikipedia to be turned into a bureaucracy. The Land (talk) 20:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

We are under threat of running into problems down the road if we can't clearly show in some formal way that Sandy was chosen by consensus. Wrad (talk) 20:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Before we talk about how to avoid problems, we need to agree that problems are likely, and I think most commenters here don't see a problem with Raul's selection of Sandy as his delegate. If you disagree with Raul having the authority to run FA as he sees fit, then address that if you feel you need to; but the selection of Sandy is simply his exercise of the authority he's agreed to have. I think that's why few people are objecting. Mike Christie (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

First, was there ever a policy developed via consensus as to Raul's powers and whether they extend to this type of decision? Second, however you want to spin it, Sandy is not simply an extension of Raul. She is a separate person who is now being given powers to make assessment/timing decisions that are not 100% cut and dried. At minimum, I think it might be a good idea for the two of them to write up something about how FAC assistantship works, what the COI groundrules are, whether Sandy's decisions might ever be overturned by Raul, what the community can do if problems arise, etc. --Melty girl (talk) 21:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As to your first point: I don't think so, but Wikipedia was not born with a policy rulebook; that has all developed over time. It is developing again now. I think it is impossible for Raul to 'impose' an assistant FA director against the consensus of the FA an broader community - even if it was never explicit that he does not have dictatorial powers to do so it was very clearly implict. That doesn't mean there needs to be a formal process for something this, which has only occured once so far. Regarding your second point, that sounds like a sensible idea to me. The Land (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me clarify what I meant on all this. The issue is deeper than the appointment of Sandy for FAC. Raul654 became FA director in Aug 2004, by what was called ratification then, by a vote/not vote of 17 people, see here. This is over 3 years ago--longer than an arbcom term. Arbcom clerks are selected by arbitrators, not by the community. If an analagous process were in place for FA director, we'd have an FA director election every 3 years with that person selecting assistants for FAC, FAR, and TFA if he/she desired. I feel that since all this has come up recently and more than once, let's just settle it now instead of continually beating around the bush. It's obvious there are several editors with views/concerns in this area, so let's just air it out and settle it peaceably. Key questions as I see it are a) do we desire community input just on who the FA director is or their assistant too and 2) if so, how often should that person be reconfirmed/reelected/etc (pick your term of choice there). — Rlevse • Talk • 21:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As a point of comparison here, Raul explicitly delegated FAR to User:Joelr31 and I about six months ago, in the midst of a long conversation reminiscent of this one. I didn't think it dictatorial or sudden, but natural—de facto, Joel and I had been doing it anyway. We were the obvious choices. Anyone familiar with FAC over the last year-and-a-half will view the choice of Sandy as similarly organic. She's most familiar, and most prolific within this process, and she's widely respected.

Given that Wikipedia is not bureaucracy, democracy, or anarchy, I don't disapprove of such evolution. I don't think that we must vote. For example, a sudden turnover of the main FA janitors every year would be a Bad Thing, IMO. That said, codifying what the exact current understanding is, on single page, might be helpful. A "Who do I Talk To" page. I don't think FAR works perfectly, for example, but I know from my own talk that people will come to me if they have a problem with a FAR, which is good. Raul's talk, of course, constantly fills up with FAC questions. Marskell (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• My concern with Sandy is that she tends to hold grudges and continue to bring them up, despite having them explained. Over a year ago I attended a circus in which a large caricature of a Hugo Chavez puppet was used; I took a photo of it and I put it on the Hugo Chavez page. I thought it was pertinent because the circus was a National Endowment for the Arts-financed production that had won several significant awards, and showed that Chavez had percolated into American popular culture. The page disagreed. Fine. I explained this, and specifically to Sandy, at which point she told me that the Chavez page is "owned." Fine, I thought it was all settled and I even thought I had a good and understanding exchange with Sandy. But Sandy has now, with all the time passed, and with the thousands of high quality photographs of difficult-to-obtain images I have contributed, continued to pop up on the random "Image issue" that involves me and bring up how she has experience with my problematic images. I've contributed a couple thousand photographs to Wikipedia, yet I can count on both hands how many have been contentious. That's not a bad record. I raised this issue with her, and asked her why she continued to bring up a dead issue--the Chavez photo I thought over which I had a sound argument, but backed down--and she was unapologetic. She seems to think me and my photographic work are problems on Wikipedia. I am concerned that Sandy holds grudges, and indeed, she'll involve herself into other disputes based upon her "experience" on even just one unrelated issue. I think that shows poor judgment and I worry if she is in a position to judge other people's work on the FA page she'll allow previous "experience" to cloud her perspective. I can supply diffs to everything above. --David Shankbone 22:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

FAR isn't as big a deal as FAC. There are a lot more articles coming through FAC and a lot more participants. I like the idea of letting things "air out". Lets have a formal process and lay everything out on he table. If you support Sandy, you can present the argument there. I don't know sandy very well, some people here do. We need to know who it is we're appointing. This is a good way to do that. Wrad (talk) 22:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

From Melty girl: At minimum, I think it might be a good idea for the two of them to write up something about how FAC assistantship works, what the COI groundrules are, whether Sandy's decisions might ever be overturned by Raul, what the community can do if problems arise, etc. Thanks for bringing up the specifics again, Melty. My take is the following. Of course Raul can always overturn any decision I make; he's the FA director. I don't imagine that ever happening, though, because if there's a FAC that isn't clear or where we might differ, I would leave it to him anyway or consult with him pre-closing. I can't think of anything less desirable for Wiki or the nominator than having an FA star stripped, and I would try hard to avoid promoting a controversial nom and risk that happening. This is not to say I'll always agree with Raul on promotions/archives, nor have I always agreed in the past, but when I disagree, absolutely the FA director's decision must trump. I strongly believe that the FA process must be driven a bit differently than any other process on Wiki, and Raul as director has long-standing community consensus. Otherwise, we could end up with a situation like GA, where an article can be a GA, be stripped of GA, and be returned to GA within a week. The FA process must be more stable. On COI, there are some people I've had differences with in the past over various issues; unless the consensus was very clear on their FAC noms, common sense would dictate that I not close their noms. That is my common sense take on COI; you can't write rules for common sense. I wouldn't close a FAC I've taken a position on, although I'll continue to try to keep the process moving by formatting the previous FACs, giving reminders when needed (for example, reminding that redlinks are not a valid oppose), etc. Raul can boot me at any time, or the community can boot me by talk page discussion; I'm not sure a new "process" is called for, and believe talk page consensus should work. Whether an RfA style vote is called for now, here or elsewhere, I think should be left up to Raul, but either way is fine with me. Avoiding problems down the road, and getting busy with the FAC backlog is what matters. On a related issue, Raul recently had to fail one of his own FACs; it goes without saying that having a delegate means I'll likely to have to make decisions on Raul's own noms, but I'm sure he's thought of that. I do agree with Marskell that too much turnover in the "janitors" wouldn't benefit FAC/FAR, and I'm not sure we need "term limits". As to "delegate for life"; it's demanding work. I don't think I'll be able to do it for life. The term will probably be self-limiting.  :-) No, Shankbone, I don't hold grudges. Many editors can vouch that in spite of initial differences on FACs, FARs, or any other issue, I'll dig in and help them anytime, and forget past differences. And I usually literally do forget differences, unless I'm reminded. I try to never forget the positive, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• That hasn't been my experience with you Sandy. Back in January you and I had what I considered a pleasant exchange over Chavez. Then it resurfaced somewhere else. Then it resurfaced again on pubic hair when you brought up your experience from 7 months prior, that I thought we had worked out. I brought that up to you about raising an issue that was old and unrelated on your Talk page. Instead of responding there, or on my Talk page, you [responded brusquely on pubic hair. I'm not known for my "problematic photos" on this site, and if anyone wants to look at my User page they can see that. I think this experience I have had with you gives me concern for your ability to have a clear perspective and not hold grudges, and to then not apply those grudges to unrelated issues. I think the diffs I just supplied and my large body of work to countless articles speak for themselves. You have been unapologetic about this grudge, and I worry this mentality (assuming it is repeated elsewhere) will harm your judgment on the FAs. --David Shankbone 23:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• As I've explained above, I take COI issues very seriously; that was a COI issue, IMO, and yes, COI is a huge issue to me. I believe whenever one is suggesting his or her own work be included, it's best to let uninvolved editors make that decision. That doesn't mean I hold a grudge against you; it simply means I take COI seriously. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry, Sandy, I'm not buying that reasoning Sandy, and the COI issue regarding photographers has long been resolved that there is no COI with photographers placing their images on pages. That's a long-resolved issue. Regardless, your focus wasn't COI, but "unnecessary photos in other articles (Hugo Chavez). These images aren't necessary", etc. And regarding the COI, User:Raul654 himself pointed out to you there was no COI. Again, I question your judgment and obstinate focus, and inability to "move on" but bring up issues that 1) are unrelated; and 2) are resolved (COI). --David Shankbone 23:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, Raul answered the COI issue, but I still find it strange for anyone to edit war over inserting their own photos into an article, and believe it best to avoid even the appearance of conflict by letting other editors decide. Edit warring is never good; edit warring to insert your own material is a concern. I don't believe I was the one who brought this up, but since you have, I do have to answer. Although I agreed in principal with your Chávez photos, I disagreed that the quality of those photos enhanced Wiki. I believe they are now deleted, so I can't demonstrate the reasons for my concern; they simply were not encyclopedic quality. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• The Chavez photo was deleted because it wasn't used, not because of poor quality. It was of the same quality found from the same circus that I took photos for on stilts and clown. There is no COI, so an appearance of COI is not at play, or else that makes it a back door to COI. COI was arguably not your main focus, either. In the end, you had one user on pubic hair bizarrely warring over something, and consensus was reached against him. Regardless, I have concerns about your judgment and I think I have demonstrated in the diffs and in the record of my work on here that those concerns are founded. --David Shankbone 23:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps I take even the appearance of COI too seriously; edit warring is always a concern, and you edit warred over your own material. I personally would have left that decision to others and would not have edit warred. By the way, on the Chávez photos, I wasn't referring to photographic quality; adding a photo portaying the leader of a country as a garish clown in a regional fair is unencyclopedic, even if Chávez warrants that depiction. I remember that photo well because it made me laugh, not because I hold a grudge. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• The photo didn't depict him as a garish clown; it depicted him true-to-form. It was a tribute to Chavez and was not mocking him. Indeed, it was a tribute to the Socialist South American leaders (I believe one of the diffs I supplied points that out). It also wasn't a regional fair, but an award-winning, NEA-financed production here in New York City. It was stand-alone, not part of a fair. Regardless, we "edit war" over our contributions and photographs are not different. I'm not a professional photographer; I only photograph for Wikipedia. There is no COI unless my Wikipedia contributions are COIs in and of themselves. That would also make my textually additions COI. --David Shankbone 00:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This is very far off topic now. David, Sandy - if you want to continue this line of discussion, please take it somewhere else. Raul654 (talk) 01:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• This is (part of) why we need some sort of process. I'm having trouble keeping track of all these concerns. I really think we should organize this discussion somewhat like an RfA so the comments and concerns everyone has aren't scattered all over this talk page. Wrad (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• No, this talk page, in its current form, is quite suffecient. We're not refactoring it or doing an RFA (or RFA-style discussion). Raul654 (talk) 01:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I wish to know what'll be done about FACs which garner little comments, and just the odd oppose. Sometimes the oppose is addressed, but the opposer cannot be bothered to check back if their concerns have been dealt with. Then, an FAC gets archived when the nominator is actually willing to work on the article. It's a rather rubbish situation, and seems to crop up more and more often. LuciferMorgan (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Although there's no hard and fast rule, generally if I see an article that's been up more than 5 days, has opposes, and no supports, I'll archive it. Raul654 (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Raul that we don't need an RFA type discussion on this. For now I agree that the talk page is fine. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)