Talk:Intelligent design

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's Intelligent Design article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity". The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Intelligent design FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of intelligent design or promote intelligent design please do so at talk.origins or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

Notes to editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory. Although at times heated, the debates contained here are meant to improve the Intelligent Design article. Reasoned, civil discourse is the best means to make an opinion heard. Rude behavior not only distracts from the subject(s) at hand, but tends to make people deride or ignore what was said. Please use edit summaries. Please peruse the 'Points that have already been discussed' section in the archives box directly below, to ensure that you are not rehashing old topics.

Archives

2002–2004 (2002-2003) (2003) (Jan-Sep 2004, 53kb) - Are oppositions/criticisms of ID relevant? (Aug-Oct 2004, 46kb) - Is ID theory falsifiable? (Sep-Nov 2004, 42kb) - Overwhelming majority: POV? What does "scientific" mean? (Nov-Dec 2004) (Dec 2004-early Jan 2005) 2005 (Jan-April 2005) (April-May 2005) (Early - Mid June 2005) - Structured debate; the Pryamid analogy; Article Splits) Archives 11, 12, 13 (Mid-August/Mid-Sept 2005) - ID as creationism; ID proponent's religious agenda; ID as scientific hypothesis (Mid-Sept/Early-Oct 2005) - Computer simulations & irreducible complexity, Criticisms of criticism, Footnote misnumbering, NPOV (Mid-Oct 2005) (Mid to late-Oct 2005) - Mainly involving users from uncommondescent.com and admins (Late Oct to early Nov 2005) (early to mid Nov 2005) (Mid Nov 2005) Tisthammer's and ant's objections (Nov 2005) Enormous bulk of text (30 Nov - 3 Dec 2005) various proposals, peer review (Early Dec 2005) - Mostly chatter concerning the current pool of editors (Mid Dec 2005) - Whether intelligent design is to be upper case or lower case (Late Dec 2005) Two major re-orgs and the Kitzmiller decision 2006 Marshills NPOV objections Reintroduction of Vast discussion Archives 27, 28, 29 July 2006 August 2006 DI warning, DI and leading proponents again 2007 First archive of 2007 January 22, 2007 Jan – early Feb 2007 Feb 9 - Mar 30, 2007 - April 19, 2007 Initial work towards a consensus lead in April 2007. April 19-April 26, 2007 April - early May 2007, including work on lead. May 2007 unproductive discussions Archive 41. Reference formatting and other minor issues. 24 May - 8 July 2007 7 July - 3 August 2007 2 August - 21 August 2007 21 August - 5 October 2007 5 -14 October 2007 October-November 2007 December 2007 Points that have already been discussed The following ideas were discussed. Please read the archives before bringing up any of these points again: Is ID a theory? Fact and Theory Does ID really qualify as a Theory? Is ID/evolution falsifiable? Falsification Falsifiability ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable, etc. Is the article too littered with critique, as opposed to, for example, the evolution article? Criticism that the Intelligent design page does not give citations to support ID opponents' generalizations What ID's Opponents Say; is it really relevant? Bias? Various arguments to subvert criticism Critics claim ... Anti-ID bias Apparent partial violation NPOV policy Why are there criticizms Critics of ID vs. Proponents Isn't ID no more debatable than evolution? Argument Zone The debatability of ID and evolution Isn't ID actually creationism by definition, as it posits a creator? ID in relation to Bible-based creationism What makes ID different than creationism Moving ID out of the "creationism" catagory Shouldn't this page be merged with creationism? ID not Creationism? Are all ID proponents really theists? ID proponents who are not theists A possible atheist/agnostic intelligent design advocate? Are there any peer-reviewed papers about ID? Scientific peer review Peer-reviewed stuff of ID (netcody) Yqbd's peer-review arguments Is ID really not science? ...who include the overwhelming majority of the scientific community... Meaning of "scientific" Why sacrifice truth Rejection of ID by the scientific community section redundant Intelligent design is Theology, not Science Philosophy in the introduction Why ID is not a theory Bad philosophy of science (ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable etc.) The "fundamental assumption" of ID Peer-reviewed articles Figured out the problem Is ID really not internally consistent?; Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID The many names of ID? Removed section by User:Tznkai Pre- & post- Kitzmiller, proponents seek to redefine ID Defining ID Figured out the problem "Intelligent evolution" ID on the O'Reilly Factor Is the article too long? Article Size Notes The Article Is Too Long Does the article contain original research that inaccurately represents minority views? Inadequate representation of the minority View The "fundamental assumption" of ID Is the intelligent designer necessarily irreducibly complex? Is a designer needed for irreducibly complex objects? Irreducibly complex intelligent designer Settling Tisthammerw's points, one at a time The "fundamental assumption" of ID Irreducibly complex Irreducible complexity of elementary particles Repeated objections and ignoring of consensus Suggested compromise Resolution to Wade's & Ant's objections (hopefully) Discussion regarding the Introduction: Intro (Rare instance of unanimity) Introduction (Tony Sidaway suggests) Is this article is unlike others on Wikipedia? Why is Wiki Violating its own POV rule Call for new editors Archives 22, 23, 24 Is this article NPOV? NPOV Archive 25 Are terms such as 'scientific community' or 'neocreationist' vague concepts? Support among scientists "Neocreationist" social, not scientific, observation Archive 26 How should Darwin's impact be described? Pre-Darwinian Ripostes\ Peer Review and ID Peer review? Lack of peer review Peer Review: Reviewed Discovery Institute and leading ID proponents Are all leading ID proponents affiliated with Discovery Institute? Archive 32 Why is intelligent design lower case, not upper case? Renaming Intelligent design as Intelligent Design Is the article trying to equate ID with Christian Creationism and the Discovery Institute too much? The article discusses the formulation disseminated by the Discovery Institute affiliates

Fossil Record?

One of Phillip Johnson's main objections to evolution (in "Darwin on Trial") is that it is not supported by the fossil record. Should a discussion of the fossil record be in the article? GusChiggins21 (talk) 07:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Johnson's record is cracked (he's from the era of 78s, so he'd get that). At most merits a brief reference to CC200 .. dave souza, talk 10:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is about Intelligent design, not objections to evolution (though there may be lack of clarity at times between the two). Is this an attempt to make a point?--ZayZayEM (talk) 10:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I just thought it was one of the main arguments used by the ID people. Is this an attempt to make a point? GusChiggins21 (talk) 21:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not an article about ID people or (all) their arguments. See intelligent design movement, Discovery Institute, and Discovery Institute campaigns.--ZayZayEM (talk) 03:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article. It is not a place to answer the comments of the intelligent design supporters, or engage in debate. You might want to investigate Talk Origins or Talk Reason or Talk Design instead. Also, the entire premise of this comment is a bit silly:

• Phillip E. Johnson is a lawyer, and therefore is no authority whatsoever on dinosaurs and fossils or evolution, in spite of his pandering vacuous book. We are an encylopedia, not a place to publish and answer the rants of cranks.
• The vast majority of paleontologists and anthropologists and geologists have no problem with the fossil record. However, that is not discussed in this article, but the appropriate articles dealing with that subject
• Well over 99% of all scientists in relevant fields believe that the complaints of ID supporters like Phillip E. Johnson are just pure nonsense, to put it politely. Since it is a minority position, we will treat it as such (see level of support for evolution for example)
• What you might be looking for is Objections to evolution, which is the closest that we have on Wikipedia, or Misconceptions about evolution, but they do not address that point exactly, I do not think. Wikipedia is written with a different goal in mind than answering this sort of junk by the uninformed and ignorant.--Filll (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like a POV issue. You are engaging in debate here. I was not engaging in debate, I was asking if an argument brought up by one of the leading proponents of ID belongs in the ID article, I was not discussing its merits or demanding that anyone agree with it, or agree with me. I didn't ask for anyone to answer anything. Please try to assume good faith. GusChiggins21 (talk) 23:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This article cannot have everything in it. It is too long as it is. This has to be relegated to daughter articles. If you want to write articles on the claims that have come out of intelligent design supporters, and the response to them by the science community, be my guest.--Filll (talk) 23:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

So, maybe a separate article about ID objections related to the fossil record? GusChiggins21 (talk) 01:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Put is it an ID objection, an ID proponent objection, a Discovery Institute objection, or a Johnson objection. (or even simply a creationist objection)--ZayZayEM (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I would check around first with others. My personal opinion is that topic might be too narrow for an article. I would suggest you research the subject more carefully, and compile all of the main arguments of ID supporters, and if that is too broad, maybe all the main arguments of Johnson and the response by the mainstream community to them. Perhaps if you added Meyer's material about fossils, and a few others, it might be enough for an article, but I am not an expert. You would have to do some digging. Probably wouldnt hurt to read their books, for example. Probably you could get them in the library if you had to.--Filll (talk) 01:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The point is covered at Darwin on Trial#Overview, which could probably do with citations and a brief reference to the common creationist claim he is reiterating, as well as Eldredge's response to these claims in pointing out that punk eek is still a gradual process, if intermittent. The claim had already been made in Of Pandas and People, and refutation of the claim formed a significant part of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District where Kevin Padian testified on October 14 – that could do with expansion, see the Nova programme for a summary. ... dave souza, talk 08:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be a pointless fork. No DI objections towards the fossil record are that unique to the DI to require a specific DI-objections article.--ZayZayEM (talk) 03:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Junk Science Link

Including a junk science is not NPOV. It's saying that it is junk science, which according to the article,"The term generally conveys a pejorative connotation that the advocate is driven by political, ideological, financial, and other unscientific motives." That shouldn't be in an encyclopedia. RJRocket53 (talk) 19:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an accurate reflection of how a significant proportion of the scientific community has received ID, so is required by NPOV: Pseudoscience and NPOV: Giving "equal validity", in my opinion. Of course ID may be theological Truth, but unfortunately they claim it's science. ... dave souza, talk 22:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Has intelligent design been called "junk science" (those words) by any notable person? If it has, then it's perfectly NPOV to include a link to that - ID is linked to junk science by the sourced person saying that ID is junk science. If it hasn't, then applying the definition ourselves to decide that it applies to this case is probably an original research synthesis. TSP (talk) 00:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

...and yes, it has, because we source it in reference 17; so this is fine to include. TSP (talk) 00:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure it is. As long as it remains a notable viewpoint and verifiable per our policies, it is required by WP:NPOV for a balanced article. BTW, it has been shown that the leading ID proponents meet all four motives ascribed to junk science. FeloniousMonk (talk) 04:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Use of word "Assertion"

OK, as directed I'm taking this to the talk page. I don't think the term "assertion" should be used in the first sentence, because advocates of ID do not consider an argument un-necessary. They do at least attempt to defend their position, regardless of whether they do so in a way that is scientific, accepted or correct. Furthermore, in that same paragraph it says ID is a modern equivalent of the teleological argument for theism. One would never consider the teleological argument an assertion, because it is...an argument. It has more than just the assertion, there's an argument with it, convincing or not.

Anybody agree/disagree? I haven't read the whole talk page and article history. Is there a good reason why the word "assertion" was agreed upon? I changed it because I consider it obvious that ID is not an assertion, but a theory, in my opinion an unconvincing one, but still not an assertion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RebelChrysanthemum (talk • contribs) 10:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Firstly, your edit did not involve calling ID "an argument", it called it a "body of theories" -- which is clearly fallacious, as even some ID advocates admit that ID has no formal theory. Also see WP:WTA#Theory.
• Secondly, the 'teleological argument' has experienced sufficient rebuttal over the centuries (see Teleological argument#Formal objections and counterarguments) that to reduce a modern attempt to retread it (and to portray it as "scientific") to the status of "assertion" is not unreasonable -- and this use of it is characterised as an "assertion" in Teleological argument#The intelligent design movement.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, then why not use one of the words "belief", "conjecture", "idea", or "notion", as these words are neutral with regard to whether or not the notion is defended.

I don't see why we would doubt that there are theories involved in ID, if theory can have all of its usual definitions. Just Behe's theory about irreducible complexities is a theory. When I put in that edit, I hadn't seen the note on this page that says the word "theory" is being used only to mean "scientific theory". Theory can in general refer to all of

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=theory

But if you guys want to use the term "theory" that way, fine. Why not call ID a belief, notion, conjecture or idea instead of an assertion? By using "assertion" we imply a lack of an argument, and these other word options don't imply that. Meanwhile an attempt at argument is made by some ID believers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RebelChrysanthemum (talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

You will find that scientists and even a court of law agree there is no supporting argument behind ID, unless we accept that the deus ex machina approach adheres to the scientific method and is not a logical fallacy. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• ID is not a "belief" as many ID advocates are YECs whose actual beliefs are only tenuously related to ID.
• ID is not a "conjecture" or a "notion", because these are speculative -- and ID is a prejudged position.
• ID is not a "theory", even under a colloquial definition, (1) because it makes no novel predictions & (2) because it is entirely lacking in specificity.
• Irreducible complexity is not a theory, it is an argument from ignorance and thus a logical fallacy.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 12:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

How about replacing "assertion" with "philosphical position" ? It's the sort of thing the DI say, though they tend to add "theological" ... dave souza, talk 12:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I would accept calling it an "intuition" -- which reflects its nebulous & getting-ahead-of-the-facts nature. I think "philosophical position" is rather vague. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 13:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

What about "assertion"? :) Sadly, this is a road we've been down before. We don't have a better word, since the most accurate characterisation I can think of ("body of half truths and lies") doesn't flow well enough to use in the opening sentence. Guettarda (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

A comment from an occasional visitor, if I may: the only problem I have with "assertion" is that it looks syntactically a bit odd. Supporters of ID presumably assert that ID is the explanation, but ID surely isn't itself an assertion. ID is ... the suggested route by which things got to be the way they are ... a proposed explanation for the natural world ... Hmmm. On reflection, maybe it's simplest just to say "ID is the assertion that ..." Or how about "ID is a have-your-cake-and-eat-it explanation for ..." Snalwibma (talk) 16:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course ID isn't itself an "assertion", to be technical. The term or phrase "intelligent design" refers to an assertion that the WP article proceeds to summarize for the reader. Nonetheless, that is the same as saying intelligent design is an assertion, the nature of which the article proceeds to describe. It is an entirely valid use of the word "is". ... Kenosis (talk) 16:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I like that. "Refers to the assertion..." Guettarda (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"Intelligent design refers to the assertion...", or "The term "Intelligent design" refers to the assertion..."? My preference would be for the latter, but I agree that both are an improvement over the current opening. Tevildo (talk) 17:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless we want to go back to the "Intelligent design is an argument for the existence of God" opening that held sway at the beginning of the year (accurate, perhaps, but a little provocative), how about simply "Intelligent design asserts that "[...]". It is a modern form of the teleological argument..."? Alternatively, if we're sticking to the existing sentence structure, how about "proposition"? Tevildo (talk) 17:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why ID could not be called a belief. A belief is something one believes. The ID supporters believe it, so it is their belief. If one is a YEC, then there's an obvious connection between ID and being a YEC. Also not all ID supporters are YECs.

Does anybody object to calling ID an "opinion"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.226.150 (talk) 00:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If you'd read the archives you'll see we've discussed this issue at length many times before and the consensus was strongly in favor of "assertion." Unless there's something new to discuss, and it appears there isn't, "assertion" it is. FeloniousMonk (talk) 06:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Most of all, ID is an argument against naturally-caused evolution. The main point of the argument is covered in Irreducible complexity.

And this relates to the bit that H just reverted - very politely, by the way. :-)

A significant number of ID proponents want their anti-evolution argument to be considered on its own merits. They claim to have "scientific" objections to evolution, along the lines of saying that the Rosetta Stone showed "signs" of having been designed.

A lot of the difficulty we've had at Wikipedia, describing the conflict, is that people don't want to take their opponents' arguments at face value. Well, I for one believe in the sincerity of people who cling to naturalistic evolution on the grounds that only material forces can be detected with the senses.

Support for naturalistic evolution need not be motivated by materialism or atheism, so I do not claim it is even if "those suspicious religious folks" level that accusation. Correlation is not causation, right?

Likewise, opposition to naturalistic evolution need not be motivated by religious belief.

At some point, Wikipedia is going to have to come to terms with the fact that some ID proponents simply think it's the best explanation, and that there is a disputed between (1) the side which claims that ID *is* creationism and (2) the side which says that ID is just as distinct from creationism as naturalistic evolution is distinct from atheism and materialism. --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The trouble is that the two sides do not have equal weight of argument as (1) there is considerable (academic and court) evidence that ID is a close descendent of Creationism; (2) for there to be equivalence, it would have to be between evolution<->atheism and creationism/ID<->theism, but this is clearly untenable given the significant number of theistic evolutionists. I would also point out that as ID explains nothing (not who, how, why, where or when), it can hardly be a "best explanation", and that Wikipedia thus has no need to "come to terms" with this patently fallacious viewpoint. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

For once, I've some sympathy with Ed's basic point, and think it would be appropriate to change "assertion" to "argument" – ID is essentially a theological or philosophical argument. As for the other points, without doubting their sincerity, it's puzzling to me how frequently ID proponents feel that the logos of St. John (I am the way, the truth, and the light) is an imperative instruction to tell outrageous lies. Perhaps their very ability to see physical evidence of the supernatural blinds them to the plain facts that are in front of them. The parable of peppered moth evolution is instructive in that regard. ... dave souza, talk 10:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Argument vs assertion

Strictly speaking an assertion is a statement (e.g. "all plants are green") and an argument is an attempt to substantiate an assertion based upon more basic axioms and logical inference (e.g. "all plants are green because they contain chlorophyll"). An argument can be invalidated by proving its axioms incorrect, or its logic invalid, an assertion can only be invalidated by a counter-example (though it can be rendered unproven by invalidating arguments made for it).

I would assert that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" is an assertion.' It contains neither axioms nor logical inferences from them (it contains no "because"), it is simply a statement.

The argument generally made for it is that (1) evolution has been disproven (e.g. by irreducible complexity) and that (2) because of this that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" must be true. (I of course dispute the truth of axiom (1) & the validity of inference (2).)

Unless specific axioms and inferences are hard-wired into the articulation of ID, it cannot be an argument, and remains an assertion (on the basis of arguments that are not themselves essential to ID). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking as ID is only an assertion, it cannot be "a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God" in and of itself, however taken in conjunction with its underlying arguments (irreducible complexity, specified complexity and/or a fine-tuned universe), it is. I can't immediately think of a concise phrasing of this to go in the lead. Perhaps "In conjunction with its underlying complexity and improbability arguments, it is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer." Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you're parsing words too closely here. Whether it's an argument or a critique, the point is that ID supporters are "arguing" against naturalistic evolution.

What gets lost is the dispute over whether the critique necessarily entails belief in God. "Shows signs of having been designed" can mean different things to different people. I don't thing a plate of spaghetti designed the flagellum. Nope, pasta just isn't smart enough for that, even if my friend last month called me "dumb as a bowl of pasta". Edgar Allen Poe wrote a classic detective story in which a deceased showed "signs of having been murdered". If you haven't read it, sorry to spoil it for you, but it hinges on the species of the killer.

There is a dispute over whether the two ideas are separable: (1) that some forms of life show signs of having been designed and (2) that only a god (or the Abrahamic God) can design life.

Come to think of it, if assembling a flagellum is so easy that natural forces can do it, maybe it doesn't take an infinitely wise being.

Anyway, I'd like the article to report neutrally on the issue of whether ID's argument implies that the "designer" is God. I come to Wikipedia for answers, so I'd like you well-read folks to tell me who says so and who says not. From glancing at the intro, I get the idea that all pro-evolution people say that ID makes God the designer - hence the argument that ID = creationism. But I seem to recall reading at least one notable author who claims that "signs of having been designed" are unrelated to the "who the designer is". (Could be spaghetti, an ape, E.T. or anything other than an "unguided force".) --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

ID taken as the statement that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" is even less a critique than it is an argument. That ID supporters make arguments does not make ID itself an argument. This is not a matter of "parsing words too closely" it is a matter of basic meaning. If we don't pay attention to this, we may as well call ID a "butterscotch" or a "concerto". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Before wikipedia can "report neutrally on" issues related to it, we first have to establish that "ID's argument" (as opposed to ID's assertion) exists. What are its axioms, what are its logical inferences, and what WP:RS documents them as being essential to ID? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

ID is not, in and of itself a "critique of evolution", it is an assertion, for which several of its supporters make arguments that are critiques of evolution. Unless it can be claimed that IC/CSI/FTU/etc is essential to ID, such that refutation of the argument counts as refutation of ID itself, then ID is not itself an argument or critique. This is a matter of "what is ID?" Is it the statement that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection", or does it also explicitly contain claims about IC/CSI/FTU/etc? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

As set out carefully in the Dover judgement, ID is the argument from design, though in its own definition the DI simply presents an assertion that "this is the best explanation". Either term does. .. dave souza, talk 17:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, Jones said that the "argument for ID" (my emphasis) was the argument from design, again differentiating between assertion and supporting argument. I have no objection to the lead speaking about this "argument for ID", as long as it doesn't conflate this argument with the assertion it is supporting. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that ID supporters might object if you defined ID as just a complaint about evolution, since some of them have no problem with evolution. They onl claim that they see fingerprints of design. That is their one common feature that defines the "Big Tent". --Filll (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Sober makes a nice distinction between what he calls "mini-ID" (the core assertion that we cite in the beginning of the article, which is common to various ID proponents and acceptable to both YECs and other creationists) and the different specifics that people like Behe, Dembski and Wells have come up with. 35.9.6.175 (talk) 23:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Identity of the designer

Who says the designer's identity is relevant? And who says it's not?

Are all sides in the intelligent design controversy agreed that the designer's identity is essential?

If not, then is there a dispute between (1) a side that says the designer's identity is essential to ID's critique of evolution and (2) a side that says ID's critique of evolution should be considered without reference to the designer's identity?

Consider (again) the example of Edgar Allen Poe's Murder in the Rue Morgue. A person showed signs of having been murdered. Everyone assumed a human being did it. But it turned out to be a different kind of being - what some biologists (or theologians?) would call a "lower form of life".

Anyway, what I'm asking is whether anyone "out there" in the world of academia (like science or theology) has requested that ID's critique of evolution be broken down into two parts:

1. the assertion that "life shows signs of having been designed" - and arguments over whether this means that natural causes alone are sufficient; and,
2. speculation about the identity of the intelligent designer, such as "Is it God?" or "If God exists, who created Him?" (opening salvo in an atheistic argument)

If this is only my own idea, then I'll take it elsewhere. But I'm asking all you knowledgeable contributors here whether any published authors have floated it. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the issue is more complex than that. The two main issues are:

1. The militant disinterest that ID's intellectual elite exhibits towards the identity of the designer, in stark contrast with scientific pursuits (and academia generally), where we'd normally expect intense speculation, and efforts to propose and shoot down hypotheses.
2. The fact that this carefully unnamed designer leaves an equally carefully crafted God-shaped hole, leaving no doubt that this is an exercise in Christian apologetics, not bleeding-edge science.

It is not the identity of the designer, per se, but what the failure to make any attempt to identify him lets slip, that is the crucial issue. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It has to be realized why the Discovery Institute tries not to identify the designer. It is for at least two reasons, I think. It is for legal reasons, to dodge the court rulings. And it is to make a big tent, to focus on "mere creation" so that the internicine warfare between various interests groups is quelled, at least for the moment.

Also, this is of interest by other creationists, who do not understand or seem to understand this strategy. Many other creationists or apologetics have attacked the intelligent design movement for this reason. This is part of the reason there is some trouble associated with the upcoming movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, in its content and promotion. Other creationists are also jealous of the money and attention the intelligent design movement gets. We have many examples of brutal attacks on intelligent design for this reason. For example, see Beyond Intelligent Design.

Therefore, one reason to focus on the identity of the designer on WP is to unmask this legal strategy. It is also to document the basis of conflict with other creationists, and the impression that the rest of the apologetics community has of intelligent design. --Filll (talk) 16:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

"Brutal"? I would consider Beyond Intelligent Design to be about as brutal as being gummed by a toothless chihuahua. But maybe it's the thought that counts. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point.--Filll (talk) 17:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I also note that part of the disgust expressed by Harun Yahya for intelligent design is this very issue; refusal to identify the intelligent designer.--Filll (talk) 17:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Filll and Hrafn, for taking my queries seriously and giving me plenty of food for thought. Happy New Year to you both! --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the section entitled "theological problems"

The views expressed in this deleted section were well written, concise, legitimate views published by two authors in two separate books by two separate publishing houses. I would hardly call these views "under-represented." To remove them is to fail to provide a comprehensive encyclopedic explanation of ID, its facets and the consequences of its assertions. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 20:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I read your edits and enjoyed them (and would enjoy reading more if you find a place where they belong). But I'm not sure they belong in this article. There was once a movement here to include the catholic take on IDC, the jewish take on it, the protestant view, the fundie view, etc. That ended up looking like a theological train wreck that seemed to lack focus and took away from the article. Adding every viewpoint was spinning out of control. Again, I enjoyed reading your work (and the authors cited), I just don't know if this article warrants that entry. Maybe in a related IDC article it would work? But who am I to say, I don't even have an account!

One more point, when you have one religionist saying the other religionist is wrong, you have two people with an unreliable viewpoint that cannot be proven. From a religious standpoint who can say with any authority that IDC is bunk? You can make this claim and back it up from a science viewpoint, but not a religious one. What gives religionist A more credibility than religionist B? When someone says "your god is too small" what the hell did they use to measure him with? furthermore, saying "your god is ______" is silly until you can demonstrate the god in question exists in the first place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I as well think that there might be a place for this material, but not in this article. I would advocate a subsiduary daughter article. Some people on creationism pages have advocated something similar and I have also said there that we need a daughter article for this kind of material. We just cannot shove all of it in this one article, which is already too long.--Filll (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

deism?

in the see more section (or whatever) someone has linked to deism note there is no mention of intelligent design in the deism article. why is it being linked? linking to it smacks of POV, especially since I don't recall EVER hearing anyone from the IDC camp memntioning the word deism. You might wish IDC was related to deism, that might make IDC more credible, but as of yet there is no relationship between deism and IDC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that people were trying to shove inappropriate links into see also lately. I deleted some, but of course they are persistant.--Filll (talk) 00:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Well if the link to deism is restored can I link to Bob Marley? He, like deism, has nothing to do with IDC but he wrote some cool songs.

I figured it would make sense to link to Deism since Deism is similar to Intelligent Design (both state that the universe was created by a God). Obviously, there are also differences (Deists reject Christianity and other religions that claim to have revelations from God, while Intelligent Design tends to assume that the Creator is the Christian God; Deism doesn't claim to be science, while Intelligent Design does), but there are also similarities. Life, Liberty, Property (talk) 00:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh, the IDists are very much anti-deism, they want theistic realism with empirical evidence of God lying about, not a Darwinian idea of God as a creator of unchanging laws. As for Marley, not from anything I can recall, but Genomic Dub Collective Origin in Dub: the Video Mix Bonus Track: Dub fi Dover should be ok ;) . . . dave souza, talk 01:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm well aware that the people promoting the "science" known as Intelligent Design are opposed to Deism. One deist website refers to Intelligent Design as "Creation Science" masquerading as Deism (see [1]). It appears that there is a consensus that Deism shouldn't be in the See Also section, so I will defer to that consensus. Life, Liberty, Property (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

ID and God

Have we clarified yet whether ID asserts the existence of God?

I have read contradictory information on this point.

• The consensus of Wikipedia writers hostile to ID is that ID entails belief in God
• Other anti-ID writers, outside of Wikipedia and hence capable of being referenced as sources, generally agree that ID is identical to the argument from design for God's existence

However, I have recently read some pro-ID information that:

• claims ID is just a critique of naturalistic evolution (e.g., "the flagellum couldn't have just evolved because the parts are useless until the whole thing is assembled)
• claims ID's critque of naturalistic evolution is "scientific" and can be evaluated separately from any religious implications

Am I just making this up (WP:OR is not permitted, I know!) or have notable published writers made these points? If they have, would it be allowable under any Wikipedia rules or guidelines to include these ideas in the article? --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• Sourced material of course is appropriate. However, "ID's critque of naturalistic evolution is "scientific"" seems to contradict what already is known: ID is inherently unscientific. Second, merely observing "science cannot answer all questions" (paraphrasing) seems to me insufficient to warrant the term "an alternative explanation." Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 16:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Intelligent design is a "big tent" that Johnson has constructed to try to deal with only mere creation". This covers many flavors of ideas. However, one common idea is the existence of an intelligent designer, and from the quotes of almost all the main proponents and promoters of intelligent design we have collected, this intelligent designer is the Christian God and even a particular version of the Christian God in most cases. They of course do not always call the intelligent designer God since this is bad for them on legal grounds in the United States. This is noted in the article. The other common feature of all those in the big tent is a rejection of "methodological naturalism" and its more stringent cousin, "metaphysical naturalism". That is, the desire to find room for the supernatural in science, although they do not always call it the supernatural since that word has bad connotations, and probably has negative legal consequences as well. So there is what they advocate and claim, and then there is how they disguise it, and then there is how outsiders view it. And these are all covered in the article at present.--Filll (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's legitimate to describe (but not define, especially in the lead) ID as a "critique of naturalistic evolution", as long as we realise that the vital word is not "evolution", but "naturalistic". ID implies - and ID proponents, including Behe on the witness stand, have stated explicitly - that the designer is supernatural. Is it legitimate not to describe a supernatural designer as "God"? I don't think so. Tevildo (talk) 22:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's legitimate to describe it as a "critique" only if you're careful to differentiate the core ("mini-ID" per Sober above) assertion that "design is a better explanation" from the more amorphous 'maxi-ID' that contains critiques (IC, CSI, FTU) that are not inherent in mini-ID. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 23:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

All ID advocates believe the designer to be the god of the Jews; this has been made abundantly clear. They attempt to pretend to random people that it is otherwise, but to groups of supporters (Christians, really) they do state that the designer is their god. We MUST point this out, as omitting it would be to omit reality and would not be neutral. Just because it makes the IDers look bad and exposes them as liars doesn't mean we shouldn't include it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

is there no advocates of intelligent design within moderate Islam? According to the page on Islamic creationism "the ideas of Islamic creationists are closer to Intelligent design than to Young Earth Creationism." ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Um the main supporters of Islamic creationism (those associated with Harun Yahya) have come down soundly against intelligent design, seeing it as an evil western plot against Islam to impose Christianity on the Muslim world. They also hate the Jews, being strongly antisemitic and Holocaust deniers and anything that would boost the God of the Jews over Allah would not go down too well.--Filll (talk) 22:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"[DI] claims ID is just a critique". (was this Expelled by any chance) -- anyway. ID proponent material is often non-consistent even to the point of contradiction. (Is it merely a critique, or a rival explanation with superior science, or a shining of light of god-given revelation in a world-gone-mad?). I think it would help best if you linked or said your source. Then we could evaluate it and how best to put it in. DI's and other significant pro-ID views do belong in here, but they need to be expressed as such, they will likely not outweigh major consensus from multiple, repeated, independent secular sources that equate ID with teleology.--ZayZayEM (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not endorse a consensus but merely indicate its existence. Hence, my attribution of the view that ID is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God to "the academic and legal community".

Baloney! Should we likewise insert wording to indicate that it is only "a consensus" that the Earth is round? Unless you can demonstrate a substantive opposing view, there is no reason for these WP:WEASEL-words. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

We should note that some advocates claim that ID is not making the teleological argument.

Substantiate this, don't just assert it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably the most important part of the ID controversy is whether ID should be taken mainly as a critique of evolution ("natural forces aren't enough") or as a campaign to promote creationism ("only God could have done it").

While the motivation for making the argument this way is religious in nearly every case, we ought to tell our readers that the political or philosophical arguments for Creationism consist of distinct steps:

1. "Pure ID": Evolution isn't enough
2. "Creationism": Because evolution isn't enough, we must look (philosophically or religiously) for a Creator. Come to our church and find out more! :-)

This structure is purely fallacious. The core (i.e. "pure") "mini-ID" assertion contains a designer/Creator. The "Evolution isn't enough" arguments are on the penumbra of ID, not at its centre. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The ID article will be much improved when it distinguishes between (1) the critique of evolution and (2) the use this critique has in the wedge strategy, etc. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you present any substantiation that the critiques are any more fundamental to ID than the Wedge Strategy is? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I came here not to argue but to describe. I do not have a position on ID. My religious faith is unrelated to it.

If your religion is that of the Unification Church (as your editing patterns seem to indicate), then I would dispute that your "religious faith" is unrelated to anti-Evolution beliefs and thus to ID. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you have information that ID is primarily (or only) an element of the Wedge Strategy. Perhaps you agree with the scientific and legal mainstream and disagree with the points made by ID advocates.

The Wedge Strategy and the origins of ID are inextricably intertwined. In fact the ID movement referred to itself as the "Wedge movement" during those formative days. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If so, I hope we can work together to create an article which fulfills Wikipedia's NPOV policy. If I recall correctly, the non-negotiable requirements are (1) to describe each view fairly and (2) to refrain from endorsing any view as "true" or "correct" or "real".

Do you and I have the same interpretation of NPOV policy? --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Evidently not, Ed. You're ignoring WP:NPOV/FAQ and the undue weight sections, and adding original research without a reliable source. Two reliable secondary sources are shown, you want to upstage them by your vague memory of some primary source. And if you study ID, you'll note that its proponents present it as validating the existence of God, and at least Behe refers specifically to Paley's argument as a forerunner. ... dave souza, talk 16:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It appears that Ed, once again and despite being on arbcom probation for just this, is edit warring to to enforce his own, slanted notion of what WP:NPOV is and demands and lack of awareness on the topic and expects us all to accept his notions and state of understanding at face value. The content he questions is supported not only by the sources provided in the aritcle, but by the own statements of the ID proponents provided later in the article; ID is an argument for the existence of God. Try reading the sources already in the article about what Johnson and Dembski say about the identity of the designer and the purpose of the ID argument next time Ed. Later today I'll be adding sources to the passge he's editing from the leading ID proponents wherein they state that design is proof of God or leads people back to God and similar statements. FeloniousMonk (talk) 18:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, if you disagree with my interpretation of NPOV policy, please tell me where. Here is my interpretation. Please tell me which of these ideas you disagree with, and why:

1. We should describe each view fairly
2. We should refrain from endorsing any view as "true" or "correct" or "real"

Where do you agree or disagree?

Secondly, the edit we are discussing is my labelling the mainstream scientific and legal view of ID as "mainstream".

• I wrote: [The consensus of the academic and legal community is that ID is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=182321566&oldid=182308399]

Are you saying it's not the consensus?

Or do you simply disagree with labeling the mainstream view like this?

You speak of the content he questions but I'm not questioning any content: I was trying to put in ten words, "The consensus of the academic and legal community is that ..."

Please stop intentionally missing my point: I have never said that ID proponents all deny that ID is an argument for the existence of God. What I am saying is that some ID proponents have indicated that ID's critique of evolution can be treated separately from their motivation to use that critique.

The article should distinguish between (A) those ID proponents who incorporate design theory's anti-evolution critique in pro-God arguments, and those who simply assert that natural causes are insufficient on the grounds of "life shows signs of being designed".

And stop saying things like "his own, slanted notion" unless you are planning to put into words exactly what you think that slanted notion is. Harassment and personal attacks have no place on Wikipedia. You must address the writing, not the person. Otherwise you (who harp so much about policies) are yourself violating Wikipedia:No personal attacks. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a widely held notion that ID advocates' claims that their arguments are independent of religion, are not representative of those advocates' actual intentions and beliefs. This was part of the Kitzmiller ruling, for instance, and is also discussed in regards to the Discovery Institute's wedge strategy.

When one party to a discourse is shown repeatedly (and even in court!) to not be acting in good faith, reiterating those arguments is not generally such a useful way to contribute to a discussion. Even if you are acting in good faith here, please understand that you are reiterating arguments that are widely held to have been fashioned in bad faith by creationists for the purpose of garnering illegal government support for creationist religion. --FOo (talk) 22:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the concept of Intelligent Design by definition goes beyond a simple critique of Evolution by Natural Selection. To say that EBNS is not enough does not by itself imply a jump to Intelligent Design. One could fall back on Lamarckism or hold out for some as yet unknown mechanism. Indeed a neutral commentator critiquing evolution would put forward all three options as possible lines of inquiry. By promoting only ID as an alternative, advocates are clearly supporting a designer, for which two options have been put forward - God, and little green men from outer space. And I don't see much promotion of little green men. --Michael Johnson (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What is obvious except the incredibly naive and those who are engaged in the calumnious behavior, is that intelligent design is a strategy developed by liars and schemers to circumvent US law. This is an attempt to pull a fast one by the dishonest. And so far, the legal system has seen through this fairly transparent subterfuge and noticed that this is really creationism attempting to fraudulently pass itself off as some sort of secular science. It is nonsense, the courts so far have declared it as clear creationism, nonsense and "breathtaking inanity". Trying frantically to get Wikipedia to buy into this thoroughly discredited bit of deception is just unreasonable and does not serve the needs of our readership.--Filll (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Science of ID

---

(written before edit conflict with Filll)

Thanks, Fubar Obfusco, for pointing out the relevance of the advocates' motivation. Perhaps that also sheds light on the critics' motivation.

I'm wondering how much of the article should focus on the scientific (i.e., natural forces only) dispute between "evolution" and ID. I've read a lot of legal arguments which simply assert that scientists have refuted ID's arguments about "insufficient causation". Is there room in the article for discussion of the merits and flaws of the complexity argument?

• For the machine to be assembled, all or nearly all the parts must already be there and be performing a function. Why must they already be performing a function? Because if a part does not confer a real, present advantage for the organism's survival or reproduction, Darwinian natural selection will not preserve the gene responsible for that part. In fact, according to Darwinian theory, that gene will actually be selected against. An organism that expends resources on building a part that is useless handicaps itself compared to other organisms that are not wasting resources, and will tend to get outcompeted.

In the six years since I first began this article, I have often seen Wikipedia writers mention the idea that "this has been refuted". Perhaps we could present the refutation to our readers now.

Behe said: "None of the papers published in JME over the entire course of its life as a journal has ever proposed a detailed model by which a complex biochemical system might have been produced in a gradual, step-by-step Darwinian fashion."

And: "There has never been a meeting, or a book, or a paper on details of the evolution of complex biochemical systems."

One, are these quotes accurate? That is, did Behe really say them?

Two, are his claims undisputed? That is, has any published author proposed a detailed model of the gradual, natural build-up of a complex system? --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Ed, his claims were refuted overwhelmingly in court. This is dealt with on the article on Kitzmiller v. Dover and I think also in irreducible complexity. We do not have room in this article for all kinds of ludicrous discredited silliness. We do not have to address all the arguments for and against ID here. We have a few daughter articles that address a little, and that is all we can do, because we do not have room or time or energy to deal with all of it. It was effectively revealed in the trial that Behe is a fraud and does not know anything about the literature and damn little about his own field of science. He is an embarassment to science and academia, and clearly his academic department feels that way in press releases about his presence they have made. --Filll (talk) 02:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

So, then, you agree that Wikipedia should side with NCSE et al. (perhaps on the the strength of the Fitzmiller ruling) that ID is wrong? In that in this matter, unlike others covered by NPOV, Wikipedia is amply justified in taking sides?

It would not be sufficient to remark merely that "the consensus of scientists and judges alike is that Behe is a fraud" but we must say only that "Behe is a fraud"? --Uncle Ed (talk) 03:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Ed, no there is not "room in the article for discussion of the merits and flaws of the complexity argument" -- this article is already very long, and that discussion already exists in Irreducible complexity and Specified complexity. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The little edit war

Please {{editprotected}} as that was not a real edit war. Besides, I want to get back to the other addition I made, which was reverted by pill. TableManners ^U·T·C 05:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change the LEAD away from the Discovery Institute's definition of intelligent design, to introduce some of your own WP:OR instead in the first few lines, you will have to get consensus first. I invite you to try to get it here on the talk page. I do not think it will be easy, however. Sorry.--Filll (talk) 05:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• Disagree with TableManners proposed edit (even if it weren't for the fact that it doesn't contain the required "specific description").
• Does six edits in 24 hours count as an edit war, and particularly one of sufficient intensity to warrant page protection? That level would seem fairly normal for as high a profile and contentious an article as this one.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 06:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Too early to unprotect. Editor who's prompted the protection is on arbcom probation for disruptive editing and ignoring consensus, so unlocking it now is not a good idea. Besides, there's doesn't seem to be much, if any, support for your changes.

Now let's talk about you calling Filll "pill." Are you trying to troll him or us? I know you have a history with him, but intentionally antagonizing him will only reflect poorly on you. FeloniousMonk (talk) 06:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up FM, there'd been somewhat of an information-vacuum previously. Is there anything in the arbcom probation requirements we should know about? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The ruling is here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ed_Poor_2#Final_decision. If he disrupts the article again, including this talk page, a filing should be made here WP:AE with diffs of today's incident and it's resulting protection and the tendentious talk page arguments. FeloniousMonk (talk) 07:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It was not really an edit war. Neither Dave (2 reversions) nor me (1 reversion) violated the 3RR rule.

I undid one reversion Dave Souza made, because he didn't give a good reason. He repeated his reversion, this time with a good reason, and that was the end of it.

I request that the article be unblocked. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

N Request declined. {{editprotected}} must be accompanied by a specific description of a requested edit. For unprotection, go to WP:RPP and provide a reason, please. Sandstein (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"I undid one reversion Dave Souza made, because he didn't give a good reason." Can you point me to the policy or guideline that says you should in turn revert those who've rejected changes made without consensus because they lack a "good reason." Here's a good reason: Gain consensus talk page before making controversial changes to this article moving forward. Considering your history, you should be doing anyway. FeloniousMonk (talk) 18:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is not required to edit a page. This is a violation of Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. You don't own the article, and you can't just revert edits because they weren't discussed on the talk page. GusChiggins21 (talk) 21:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources for ID proponents on ID as an argument for the existence of God

Ed would like to alter the article to claim that only scientific community and the courts see ID as an argument for God, but not ID proponents. Here are 5 sources showing 3 of the leading ID proponents stating they see ID as an argument for the existence of God:

• "... intelligent design should be understood as the evidence that God has placed in nature to show that the physical world is the product of intelligence and not simply the result of mindless material forces. This evidence is available to all apart from the special revelation of God in salvation history as recounted in Scripture. ... To be sure, creationists who support intelligent design think it does not go far enough in elucidating the Christian understanding of creation. And they are right! ... Even so, there is an immediate payoff to intelligent design: it destroys the atheistic legacy of Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design makes it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. This gives intelligent design incredible traction as a tool for apologetics, opening up the God-question to individuals who think that science has buried God" Why President Bush Got It Right about Intelligent Design William A. Dembski, August 4, 2005.
• "Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration." Intelligent Design's Contribution To The Debate Over Evolution: A Reply To Henry Morris William A. Dembski. February 1, 2005.
• "The fine-tuning of the universe, about which cosmologists make such a to-do, is both complex and specified and readily yields design. So too, Michael Behe's irreducibly complex biochemical systems readily yield design. The complexity-specification criterion demonstrates that design pervades cosmology and biology. Moreover, it is a transcendent design, not reducible to the physical world. Indeed, no intelligent agent who is strictly physical could have presided over the origin of the universe or the origin of life." The Act of Creation: Bridging Transcendence and Immanence William A. Dembski. 1998.
• "The Intelligent Design movement starts with the recognition that 'In the beginning was the Word,' and 'In the beginning God created.' Establishing that point isn't enough, but it is absolutely essential to the rest of the gospel message." Foreword by Phillip E. Johnson, Creation, Evolution, & Modern Science Kerby Anderson, Raymond G. Bohlin. 2000.
• "By uncovering evidence that natural phenomena are best accounted for by Intelligence, Mind, and Purpose, the theory of Intelligent Design reconnects religion to the realm of public knowledge. It takes Christianity out of the sphere of noncognitive value and restores it to the realm of objective fact, so that it can once more take a place at the table of public discourse. Only when we are willing to restore Christianity to the status of genuine knowledge will we be able to effectively engage the 'cognitive war' that is at the root of today's culture war." Uncommon dissent: intellectuals who find Darwinism unconvincing Nancy Pearcey, ed. William A. Dembski. 2004, p. 73

I'll add these to the article tomorrow. I have approximately a dozen more from Dembski (who is a particularly prolific writer on this topic), Meyer, and Johnson, and another dozen from lesser ID proponents. Ed, you could have found these with Google easily enough had you bothered to look rather than edit warring and continuing hammering away on the talk page: 20 minutes of research is worth 2 days of time wasted arguing on the talk page and rv'ing others. I think you need to rethink your method of participating, particularly in light of your edit warring having resulted in this article being protected. FeloniousMonk (talk) 07:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrect about what I want. Where on earth would you get the idea that I want "to alter the article to claim that only scientific community and the courts see ID as an argument for God, but not ID proponents"?

If you will quote from a talk page comment (or an article edit I made), I will understand why you think I want this.

If you ignore this question, I must assume that you realize your mistake. In any case, let me go on record as saying that I do not want the article to say that.

What I would like, instead, is for the article to distinguish between two ideas that ID proponents have put forth:

1. That natural forces don't explain life's biochemical complexity as well as design; and,
2. If something this complex was designed, there must be a supernatural designer, i.e., God

If I have failed to make myself clear about this, I apologize. But now it's clear, right?

To sum up, what I'm asking is that if not all ID proponents say ID is an argument for God, we should report this fact - but if (as FeloniousMonk has implied) all ID proponents have always said that ID is an argument for God, we should report that fact.

Is this clear now? --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Ed, you're simply moving your goal posts now. In your change you've been editing warring over your edit summary [2] clearly says "Except for its proponents, everyone thinks it's an "argument for the existence of God" and your fighting to change "It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God" to "The consensus of the academic and legal community is that ID is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God." And now you've created a new policy fork (which I've properly labeled an essay for you), Wikipedia:Scientific consensus, where you're trying to argue that "When writing about scientific consensus which appears to coalesce around a certain view of a scientific matter, Wikipedia should not endorse this consensus." While superficially true, it ommits the fact that when writing about intentially contrived controversies (like ID) which make certain claims, Wikipedia should not repeat these views as fact. Also, your attempt to have this page unprotected [3] used a very misleading summary of the situation here, compounding the issue that you are being disruptive. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of consensus, Samsara seems to think that what you called an "edit war" has all been cleared up. I wish you would not keep threatening me but would simply respond to my questions and suggestions with good faith.

By the way, an "essay" is not a "policy fork". I'm simply commenting on policy, which you know is allowed. You do it, too. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe this is not as clear as I thought. I need to ask everyone here a question first.

Do all Wikipedia writers working on this article agree that, if (1) natural forces didn't explain life's biochemical complexity as well as design, then (2) this necessarily implies that only a Supernatural Designer, i.e., God, could have created life, which means (3) that Creationism is true?

Or is there even one Wikipedian working on this article who sees #1 and #2 as independent propositions?

I will have more to say about how we can work together on this article based on the answers (or lack of answers) to these questions. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

FM, thanks for an excellent resource. One correction, Forward by Phillip E. Johnson sounds like it's published by the Salvation Army, so I've changed that. Ed, read the Kitzmiller conclusion memo. You've just posed the classic false duality, see McLean v. Arkansas, 1982. On a happier note the religious programme on Radio 4 this morning had a sermon basically setting out the basis of theistic evolution, that science explains the facts, and religion explains purpose and meaning beyond the facts. He went on to describe the 3 Wise Men as using science to follow the star, and religious revelation of the religious light to find their destination. Which immediately reminded me of The Life of Brian. .. dave souza, talk 15:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the Life of Brian. Now there's a religious story I can appreciate.  :) OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually Dave, he's flubbed his wording of it, so that it isn't even a false dichotomy (it just looks like one). It is in fact logically trivial because it assumes its conclusion (supernatural design) as part of its premise. This premise is fallacious, as explicitly supernatural design is never a good scientific explanation -- as it is unfalsifiable ("God just decided to do it and make it look this way"). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

This is almost irrelevant to this particular debate, for which I'm sorry; but you seem to have made an unjustified leap there from "unscientific" to "fallacious". Consider, for example, the statements "my favourite colour is blue"; or, alternatively "most wars are really caused by personal hatred". Neither of those is falsifiable, and therefore neither is a scientific statement. On the other hand, neither is necessarily fallacious or logically invalid. The scientific method and methodological naturalism are not innate to logic; and if we assume they are, I don't think that we can treat the subject of this article neutrally. An explanation which posits a supernatural cause can never satisfy methodological naturalism and generally cannot satisfy the scientific method; but that doesn't mean that it is fallacious or that logic cannot be applied to it. The adherents of this theory are questioning methodological naturalism; I don't think that we can treat their arguments neutrally if we take methodological naturalism as an axiom. TSP (talk) 16:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll be adding them to the article then. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

A comment on Ed's specific point. "Natural forces do not explain biological complexity as well as design" (emphasis added) does indeed imply a supernatural designer, and "A supernatural designer is a better explanation than natural forces" is indeed creationism. Tevildo (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think as most of these sources overwhelmingly come from Dembski (and _{a few from} Phil E. Johnson)- it should be made clear who specifically is *outing* ID as un-subtle teleology. Dembski is a very prominent proponent, but he should not be taken as speaking for the entirety of the movement. --ZayZayEM (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Except that every major supporter and promoter of ID has made almost identical statements, including Behe and Wells and Meyer and Nelson and so on and so forth.--Filll (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If every major supporter has made identical statements. Then it will be on record, and citable (preferably in a handy collated format). But if by "almost", you mean "sorta-in-that-really-annoying-crafty-lawyer-not-quite-actually-explicitly-using-the-the-exact-phrase-naming-a-Judeo-Christo-deity-damn-christo-fascists" then its not good enough. That's called quote-mining or putting-words-in-people's-mouths. Something we don't like round these parts, at least, that's the impression I had. Failure to uncouple the ID/DI machinations from conservative christo-creationist roots, is not the same as explictly identifying their designer as Jesus³ to the exclusion of any other explanation. As a group they have repeatedly, on record, implied, heavily suggested, and non-explictly implicated Jesus³, but that's not the same as unanimously explicitly identifying him, when they have made repeated unanimous announcements to the contrary. I'll go with what cites are provided, if they say differently. Dembski definitely overwhelms the others at goofing(?) at naming the designer and deserves special singling out as a repeat offender at naming the elusive designer as Jesus³.--ZayZayEM (talk) 02:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

POSTAD - I don't want "every" DI fellow on record. I just think that if 70-90% of our quotes are from Dembski, that shouldn't read as "all leading intelligent design proponents"--ZayZayEM (talk) 02:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Dembski is not "all leading proponents": he can't be more than 25% of them (!) if you consider the top 4 to be Dembski, Behe, Wells and Johnson. --Uncle Ed (talk) 03:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I would put Wells on the next tier down along with Gonzales, Weikart, Richards, and probably one or two others. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds about right. He might be in the top 5 "pro-ID authors who attract criticism" - because of his incredibly annoying Icons book. But he's more of an attacker and explainer. ID is not his baby: he's just taking it out for a walk. --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Not one, but two reasons to reject ID on the basis of science

From Intelligent design#Overview

"However, mainstream science rejects ID on the grounds that an Intelligent Designer must be supernatural."

This is not the sole exclusive conclusion of ID, nor is it the sole reason for its rejection.

There are two outcomes from ID reasoning that make it equally and totally rejectable by science.

1. an Intelligent Designer must be supernatural.
2. an Intelligent Designer requires a designer, or naturalistic means to explain its existence. (Ultimate Boeing 747).

I agree, ID cannot be classified as true science, because the proponents of mainstream science are so bigoted and godless, they can't possibly accept the notion that God exists. Anyway, ID is definable as science because it puts forth a hypothesis like any other science, it just involves God, so therefore it is rejected by the scientific community. In my opinion, the proposition that God doesn't exist by so called scientific meothods, should also be rejected by mainstream science because it commits the same supposed crime as ID. JIMBOB —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbob10045 (talk • contribs) 01:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Very rational. Not. Just ranting and nonsense. Science has nothing to do with science. It is pure poison for science and it is bad theology. But we are here to improve the article, not to try to talk to people like you. Thanks. --Filll (talk) 02:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

ID itself, as presented by DI and other cdesign proponentists, reject 2).

While science rejects 1) on the basis of simple scientific naturalism and refusal to bow to mystic nonsense. And also rejects 2) on the basis of Occam's razor - we have a perfectly fine and validated naturalistic explanation for life and the universe without throwing some intelligent designer in there too.

This paragraph should be rephrased to show that there are two, equally valid and oft-espoused, reasons why ID fails to meet the simplest of criteria to be even a basic scientific proposition.--ZayZayEM (talk) 02:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but the infinite regress argument steps outside of natural science and touches on theology. It is, in fact, an atheistic argument.

Bear in mind that ID is rattling the cage here - not that Wikipedia should help it do so.

ID is demanding a change in the philosophy of science. Our response should not be to endorse or condemn this demand but to describe those elements of the demand that would be of interest to our readers.

For example, ID objects to the methodological naturalism of science, whereby it restricts the scope of the physical sciences to natural causes alone. Dembski wrote: "Its fundamental claim is that intelligent causes are necessary to explain the complex, information-rich structures of biology, and that these causes are empirically detectable." Thus ID mixes vanilla scientific claims with chocolate philosophical demands.

Stop me if this "insight" is simply WP:OR. All I know is what I read online and in books. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you're correct. It's part of the "wedge strategy". ID proponents want science redefined as simple empiricism, rather than methodological naturalism (assuming that everything has a natural explanation). GusChiggins21 (talk) 09:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No Gus, what they have explicitly demanded is Theistic realism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 09:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how an atheistic argument becomes theology? Or how dealing with non-god (an unidentified designer) in a non-religious context (science) becomes theology? This is how ID fails in reality because they are demanding the supernatural, everyone knows they are talking about He-who -shall-not-be-named. But on the philosophy of it all, ID fails before this, without the premise that a designer itself is unsatisfactory scientifically, proponents would not have to bring out their "Oh, but it's a mystical designer" card.

This failure of a designer as a scientific premise is discussed by multiple sources, and Dawkin's Ultimate Boeing is just one argument. One could see these two points as opposite sides of the same coins, but I definitely assert that #2 has far less theology in it than #1. #1 is calling ID religious (because it is not-science). #2 is calling it not-science (because it is religious).--ZayZayEM (talk) 11:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course evolution is a secular science, as all science is, and can be used as evidence in a philosophical argument for atheism, or as evidence in that branch of philosophy defined as theology as an argument for a religious position. That the ID argument failed both as theology and science was recognised by Baden Powell and many theologians after him. .. dave souza, talk 12:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

All I am trying to get across that "an Intelligent Designer must be supernatural" is a false straw man here. ID fails because it must either 1) have a supernatural designer OR 2) allow a naturalistic explanation for the designer be investigated (not necessarily provide itself). ID proponents shun 2 in favour of 1 - but 1 is not the default premise from scientific reasoning 2 is.--ZayZayEM (talk) 12:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's at the heart of the matter. ID is based on there being empirical evidence, actual material artefacts which can't be explained by natural processes so must be explained by a process beyond the reach of science, and in the realm of philosophy or theology. As they say. Science is based on explaining material empirical evidence by material processes, and is secular in not ruling out processes beyond nature, but in taking no account of them when constructing a scientific explanation. If it's not material it's immaterial. If ID produced a testable hypothesis about how a physical intelligent designer works, then it would be science, and then it would have failed in its stated purpose of redefining science to accept theistic realism. Gotta drink the kool-aid. .. dave souza, talk 12:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The heart of the matter is a dispute over the philosophy of science. Referring to what Dave said, ID's claim is (1) that empirical evidence and material artifacts cannot be explained by natural processes; therefore, (2) science needs to expand its scope to include the possibility of supernatural intervention.

Biologists are (with extremely rare exceptions) opposed to this proposed extension of the scope of science. They insist that biology is a physical science, and they refuse to do any sort of "scientific work" which considers non-material forces.

Note that there are other fields of science than physical science. For example, psychology is not dominated by the empiricism and 'methodological naturalism' of physical science. The field of psychology is, in the academic world, generally seen as separated from the "hard sciences" like physics and chemistry. I daresay one reason for this is that You cannot directly observe the thoughts, emotions, and desires of Him. The scientific study of the human mind necessarily relies on each person voluntarily describing "what's on his mind" - which is a dodgy business.

Dave, I don't think any ID proponent seriously proposes a physical designer. They are just saying that "signs of being designed" should be studied as part of science - even if this means science must expand its scope.

I understand that two objections to this expansion are (1) if it's supernatural, it can be anything, any whim of a perverse or flighty god like Zeus (jovial one day, nasty the next); and (2) if there's a god who creates, then who created that god (the "infinite regress" objection").

The problem with the current article is that it agrees with physical science proponents that science is philosophically correct to retain its empirical scope. I submit that the endorsement of this philosophical POV is a violation of the policy of this project. Wikipedia is not supposed to endorse a POV, but merely report which scholars and experts espouse it. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As I read the article, it seems to deal primarily with what science is, rather than what it should be. As science is currently defined, it doesn't accept supernatural explanations. Since ID requires supernatural explanations, it's not scientific under the current definition of "science". Nowhere do I see this article making a stand that this definition of science must be the way science should be. If you see this somewhere in the article, then I agree that it probably shouldn't be there. Would you mind pointing out a specific line where you see this? --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

There may be differences on what science 'is'. Here's Behe in his response to the Kitzmiller case, Whether Intelligent Design is Science:

"The Court finds that intelligent design (ID) is not science. In its legal analysis, the Court takes what I would call a restricted sociological view of science: “science” is what the consensus of the community of practicing scientists declares it to be. The word “science” belongs to that community and to no one else. Thus, in the Court’s reasoning, since prominent science organizations have declared intelligent design to not be science, it is not science. Although at first blush that may seem reasonable, the restricted sociological view of science risks conflating the presumptions and prejudices of the current group of practitioners with the way physical reality must be understood.

On the other hand, like myself most of the public takes a broader view: “science” is an unrestricted search for the truth about nature based on reasoning from physical evidence. By those lights, intelligent design is indeed science. Thus there is a disconnect between the two views of what “science” is. Although the two views rarely conflict at all, the dissonance grows acute when the topic turns to the most fundamental matters, such as the origins of the universe, life, and mind."

Interestingly, Dawkins' Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit, mentioned earlier, doesn't work on the principle that intelligent design is outside science. It works on the principle that it CAN be considered within science, and therefore be found to fail by scientific reasoning (due to its lack of parsimony). TSP (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• Precisely my initial point.--ZayZayEM (talk) 03:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

To use that, we'd have to establish Behe as being a reliable source on what constitutes science. Given that in that trial, he admitted that under his definition, Astrology would be considered science, it would be quite a difficult task to establish this. As the article is, it mentions that ID proponents believe ID is science, while mainstream scientists and the courts don't, which is perfectly fine. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 22:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit comes from Richard Dawkins, not Behe.

Dawkins concludes that the argument from design is the most convincing [argument for God]. The extreme improbability of life and a universe capable of hosting it requires explanation, but Dawkins considers the God Hypothesis inferior to evolution by natural selection as explanations for the complexity of life.

Dawkin's concede's that design has merits, but is inferior c.f. leading mainstream theory. --ZayZayEM (talk) 03:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Not that there's much relevance now, but I was referring to the first part of TLP's comment (the problem with pronouns, sometimes what "that" is isn't clear). In any case, even if Dawkins believes ID is or can be treated as science, that view is in the minority among scientists and contrary to the decisions of the court. There's a lot more I could theoretically say on this, but with the disruption gone, there's not much point (unless someone has a good faith disagreement here, in which case I'll gladly discuss further). --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I do disagree. Wikipedia is not here to judge the sides of an argument and establish which is truth. When there are disagreements, Wikipedia should not be seeking to say, "Well, that source seems more reliable, so let's say that one's fact and the other is wrong". The paper by Behe is a reliable source for what Behe considers science to be; and that is all it needs to be. We do not need to say, "Do we think Behe is a reliable person to say this?" If Behe says it, then that stated view exists, even if only as his view. The question still remains as to whether that view is is significant, but given that this article is about the view of which Behe is one of the most prominent spokemen, it seems to me that it is significant to this article. So, we are should not be talking about one side that says what science is, and another side which is saying what it would like to change science into. We are talking about two sides with different published views on what science is - one much better supported, but that doesn't mean that we present that one as fact and the other as an attempt to alter fact. TSP (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The demarcation problem (deciding what is science and what is nonscience) is essentially unsolved. Different things like falsifiability and Daubert standard etc have been proposed, but all pretty much are unsatisfactory for various reasons.

People do not state what the basic problem of the supernatural in science is however; it would destroy science, since there would be no reason to ever do science again and find an answer to anything, since "god dun it" is an answer to anything. And how could you get funded to find an answer when you already have one?

I am reading an article by Meyer from about 1994 where he argues that you can come up with fancy artificial rules for when "god dun it" and when naturalism is the more proper assumption, but these rules are ludicrous and complicated. They are completely unconvincing and you would never be able to apply them in practice.

The Muslims had the most advanced science, medicine, mathematics, navigation and engineering on planet earth for about 400 or 500 years, until they made it official policy to always say "god dun it" (see The Incoherence of the Philosophers). Within a few years, Muslim science went back essentially to the dark Ages, and it has not emerged in the last 1000 years from this Dark Age. All because "god dun it" is the answer to everything, and it is the official answer that you are not allowed to question (or else get beheaded or something).

What people do not quite understand is that once "god dun it" is the answer to every mystery, then in criminal investigations and criminal defense, "god dun it" will be the answer to everything. P:"How did the bloody knife with your fingerprints get under the coach Mr. Jones?" J: "God dun it" P:"Oh so sorry, case closed, you are free to go Mr. Jones". All jails will have to be emptied. No more criminal prosecutions. No one will be able to be held responsible for anything. P:"Why do we have 10 witnesses to your robbery if you did not do it Mr. Smith?" S: "God dun it" etc. --Filll (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

You can sort out most of this by simply stating that science does not search to answer WHY nature works, but HOW does it do it. Science is not concerned at all about any finalism, while questions of this nature are the central pillars of any religious doctrine (and you managed to give two examples, one question starting with how and the other with why. While there only one possible true answer to the first question, the second is obviously totally unscientific, as for example there are a multitude of possible reasons why the person asking the question could have exactly 10 witnesses!) Sophos II (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well who woulda thunk? "Why not how". Why didn't someone else think of that? 2500 years of philosophy and tens of thousands of tenured faculty studying this and thousands of courts and hundreds of thousands of lawyers and the US Supreme Court, and you solved it all! "Why not How". Amazing.--Filll (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Really amazing, isnt'it? It is deplorable to see that so many people waste so much time and energy by not realizing the fundamental differences between all the questions such as "Why was the solar system formed?" and "How was it formed?". Only one of the two kinds of questions is relevant to Science, the rest being whatever you want to call it, but not Science. Sophos II (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Filll, was that your own opinion, or are you voicing a commonly held or scholarly idea? Maybe the problem with Muslim science was that "you are not allowed to question the official answer" - which is kind of the complaint some ID proponents are making about the theory of evolution.

ID proponents have been complaining that physical science is too restrictive: "If it's not a physical cause, we don't want to hear about it."

Anyway, which philosophers of science have asserted that supernatural (intelligent) causes are too erratic to be detected? This is not a challenge. I want their names so we can reference that viewpoint. As in:

Professor X rejects ID because, "Spirits are erratic and unpredictable." [ref needed] --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ed you are free to go back to the Dark Ages if you want, pre-Enlightenment. However, you are not allowed to force others to go with you. Live in a cave if you want, but do not use force to make others live in caves too.--Filll (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That would just be so funny if it wasn't scary - the definition of a word does not fit our purposes, so let's change the definition. Talk about 1984. Ed, if you don't fit into the science tent, just accept it, you can't demand the tent be moved to accommodate you. --Michael Johnson (talk) 00:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

At some point is it reasonable to ask Ed Poor to take the time to actually understand IDC before wasting everyone's time here? He's been trying to make IDC out as something it is not in this article for several years now. He continues to ask the most ignorant questions, as if he'd never heard of IDC before, and he continues to be nothing more than a distraction. At what point do you tell an editor he needs to actually know something about the article? His comments and question suggest he knows nothing about science, IDC or evolution. At some point you've got to be able to hold him to some reasonable standard of conduct. And now he's asking for names of "science philosophers who said ..." Ed this is not a place to do your research nor are the editors here your personal tutors. And EVERYONE knows IDC is a creationist scam to outwit Edward vs... so they can get creationism back in the class room. And EVERYONE knows IDC is not science....But you...Good god man are you as dense as you appear to be on these talk pages? Seriously. Do you honestly expect us to buy you're dense as a fence post act? I'm stunned the other editors here give Ed more than 2 seconds consideration as he has a history that goes back several years of disrupting this and other IDC related articles. He always wants to portray IDC as something it is not. Again, at some point Ed needs to be held to some sort of reasonable standard of conduct. - Guy who's getting tired of the IDC nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 19:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

See my comment on Ed's talk page Raul654 (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Heartily supported - thank you, Raul. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - Guy who's getting tired of the IDC nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

removed

Orangemarlin removed the phrase and its related paragraph from the section on the basis of unsalvagable POV [4]. Perhaps this section should be archived. It's getting OT. --ZayZayEM (talk) 03:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Central claims of ID

In http://www.arn.org/idfaq/What%20is%20intelligent%20design.htm#_ednref3 Dembski says:

• Rather than trying to infer God’s existence or character from the natural world, it simply claims "that intelligent causes are necessary to explain the complex, information-rich structures of biology and that these causes are empirically detectable."

Am I the only one who feels that this description of ID should be in the article somewhere?

I suspect you are. It is merely a less equivocal ("necessary" instead of "better") articulation of the assertion currently in the lead. Given the IDM's penchant for restating the same thing hundreds of different ways, with varying equivocation, I would demand strong evidence of the notability of any particular articulation of this assertion, before it got a mention in the article in addition to the existing one. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting quote from the vice president of USF

From [5]

“ Goodman, who has worked to promote the new campus among Polk's civic, business and political leaders, stopped short of criticizing local school board members. Intelligent design, however, merited no such tact.

"It's not science," Goodman said. "You can't even call it pseudo-science."

”

ScienceApologist (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

See Flying Spaghetti Monster#Polk County, Florida which includes that quote, as well as quoting Margaret Lofton, one of the school board members supporting intelligent design, who said "They've made us the laughingstock of the world". It's not clear whether "they" is the Pastafarians, or the cdesign proponentsists. Of course, this could lead to quote-mining – "see, it's not pseudoscience!!!" . . dave souza, talk 20:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Daubert

In reference to a {{fact}}-tag raised in the article, I seem to remember a law-review article stating that Jones' decision (and resultant rejection of ID evidence) hewed fairly close to the Daubert standard in evaluating the credibility of ID evidence (I'll see if I can track it down). However, as KvD has been the only ID court case, and as the plaintiffs in that did not mount a Daubert challenge of the defence expert witnesses (a stroke of strategic genius, considering how extensively their testimony was used against them), there has been no explicit consideration of whether ID meets Daubert by a court. The paragraph in question will probably therefore require some rewriting. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Google does reveal some blogs which mention it. Daubert doesn't seem to me to be particularly relevant to Kitzmiller, as no-one was at any point attempting to use Intelligent Design as a standard for evidence in court (e.g. "this is the murder weapon - intelligent design proves it"). The court case was entirely about whether ID was admissable in schools, not in courts. It may be true that ID doesn't meet Daubert, but it's of dubious relevance - I'm sure there are lots of other standards it doesn't meet too, but as no-one has at any point tried to use it as a standard of evidence in a US court, whether it would be admissable as one doesn't seem that relevant. TSP (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Google turned out to only be useful for tracking it down when applied with considerable lateral thinking. It was Lawful Design: A New Standard for Evaluating Establishment Clause Challenges to School Science Curricula. It states:

Yet despite this impermissible purpose, Judge Jones’s analysis of the content of ID and Of Pandas and People also concluded that “ID is not science.” More specifically, he wrote: “ID has failed to gain acceptance in the scientific community, it has not generated peer reviewed publications, nor has it been the subject of testing and research.” Though the opinion makes no mention of Daubert, observe that the three factors Judge Jones focused on – testability, peer review, and general acceptance – are precisely the applicable three factors from the Daubert analysis.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Verifiably stated, then, but a bit tangential. The article is more about whether the Kitzmiller verdict's similarity to the Daubert standard suggests that the Daubert standard might be a good tool to use in evaluating content for science curricula. It's not really a judgement on ID itself (which it notes was rejected in court primarily for reasons unrelated to the standard - that it was advanced with an impermissible purpose, not that it was not science, though the judge did also rule that ID was not science). It might justify a sentence with a link to the relevant article, but I think that the current text in which the Daubert standard is described in full in this article is a bit excessive. TSP (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd agree there. The source quoted above seems to be a step too far from the actual court case and ID - along the lines of an independant observer reviewing it and expressing their opinions on how the judge's ruling invokes shades of Daubert. I can see justifying a quick mention, a sentence or two at most, given that we do have this source making the connection, but we shouldn't be giving it as much weight as the current article does. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 16:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The Bill Greene Show

• ouch*

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bill-greene-rips-wikipedia-a-new-one/

I didn't feel a thing, but then again I am not one of the editors of this article. Angry Christian (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(Wikipedia mentions start at 6:43. I tell you that because this show moves very, very slowly. That is 6 minutes and 43 seconds of your life you can save. I'm not sure there's actually anything of substance said in those first 6 minutes and 43 seconds. In about 20 minutes I'll say whether anything of interest is said after that.) TSP (talk) 00:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)