Talk:Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China

The validity of Orphans of the Cold War and "Inside Story of CIA's Black Hands in Tibet" (Putting this back in)

Littlebutterfly didn't do his/her homework and blundered when he/she suggested these were self-published. Au contraire.

Orphans of the Cold War by John Kenneth Knaus is published by Public Affairs Books. It has been reviewed by the New York Times and Foreign Affairs magazine. It includes first hand accounts by the people involved in the Tibetan resistance, including both Tibetans and westerners.

"Inside Story of CIA's Black Hands in Tibet" by John Roberts was published in print, in The American Spectator, which has been continuously publishing for the last 40 years. It has been used by ILW, an immigration law publisher to help lawyers determine Tibetan asylum cases concerning former members of Chushi Gangdruk, a Tibetan resistance organization that formed in 1952 to fight the invasion of Tibet.

The credibility of these two -- the fact that they're from established publishers, the reputation of the New York Times and others who have reviewed them, their use of both primary (Tibetans and CIA agents directly involved in the resistance to the invasion of Tibet) and secondary sources (outside materials) -- is solid. Littlebutterfly's accusations are baseless and false. Longchenpa (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a reliable sources noticeboard where you could ask for quick extra opinions. However, although I wish to avoid offering opinions on the content of this particular article, I would say that I think that the two sources mentioned would be considered reliable for any article for which they are relevant. CIreland (talk) 19:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

No editor gets to pick the sources used by another editor so long as they are credible. Or else I would have Goldstein and Xinhua out of this article in a heartbeat. Longchenpa (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Take it to WP:RS/N if you need further input, but they're definitely reliable enough. Whether they are strictly relevant is an editorial decision. Relata refero (disp.) 12:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The CIA involvement with the Tibetan resistance is important to China because it's the basis for their claim that the Tibetans were CIA pawns.

The Tibetan resistance is important to the Tibetans because it demonstrates that they were against China's takeover and fought it; first on their own, then later with CIA support.

Using sources from former CIA agents and Tibetans directly involved in the Tibetan resistance sheds light on the methods of the 1950 invasion of Tibet and on the Tibetan response. Longchenpa (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Knaus, the author of Orphans of the Cold War was a CIA officer, his account of CIA’s involvement would be welcomed. I raised objection because the material you are using from this source is not about the CIA involvement but alleged atrocities against Tibetans. Such atrocities, if they did happen, would have been exposed by the Tibetans. The fact that the Tibetans themselves are not making such accusations raises doubts about these alleged atrocities. Mr. Knaus is a CIA officer not an academic, he interviewed Tibetans but that doesn’t mean he can not make up stories. Although this book meets the standards, on this subject it should not be used. Instead we should use Tibetan sources. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I can see what you're saying, though I"m not sure I agree. In theory, anyone can make up stories; the key for us as Wikipedians is to make sure it's clear who's telling which story. I agree that we should use a different for a slightly different reason, that CIA sources aren't necessarily the most credible. It's certainly easy enough to find sources which describe the atrocities, Tibetan and NGO sources (like the UNCHR) are our best bets for this info. In short, keep the Knaus source for CIA involvement but find other sources for everything else. There's an article specifically on CIA activity in Tibet where this source would be extremely useful, but the exact title escapes me now. Gimme danger (talk) 18:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You must not know the discussion between Knaus and Conboy's books. From a scholarly perspective you can't include Conboy and not have Knaus, or else the argument is not complete. Knaus interviewed the Tibetans involved in the resistance. Conboy did not. Knaus went directly to the CIA agents involved. Conboy did not. Knaus had access to CIA information that Conboy did not have. There is no reason to include Conboy and not Knaus. In fact, that would be a mistake and misrepresentation.

As for the atrocities, the descriptions are taken from the Tibetans who were there. Unfortunately, Conboy did not interview the Tibetans so was unable to provide that information. It would be great if every piece of information in this article would have multiple sources, and I welcome that. But after Littlebutterfly's demand for ten sources for the word "invasion" in the first paragraph (have a look at the first paragraph), I said that from here on out we need equal treatment in the demand for proof/sources. She does not get to demand one source over another, so long as the source is credible -- and Knaus is -- nor does she again get to demand infinite numbers of sources where she herself provides only one. Longchenpa (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Knaus wasn't just "a CIA agent." He was the CIA's key contact with the Tibetans. He also interviewed the Tibetans for his book. His book is not a defense of the CIA, in fact, it is a regretful account of what happened when the CIA abandoned the Tibetans. The content of his book is highly embarrassing to the CIA (and sad). He is a very credible source.

We are not exclusively using scholars. I note you have a speech from Xinhua (not known for their scholarship) dated 2001, as well as journalistic accounts. Conboy is not a scholar either, he's a former political policy analyst who did not interview the Tibetan and did not have Knaus' high level access.

Also, you can't use Conboy's book without Knaus (or Knaus without Conboy). The two address each other's arguments, so in terms of scholarship, you would have to have both or you are not fully representing the issue. Longchenpa (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

No editor gets to pick the sources used by another editor so long as they are credible. Or else I would have Goldstein's dinosaur and Xinhua's scholarship out of this article in a heartbeat. Longchenpa (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Longchenpa, you are forgetful and argumentative. First of all I did not “demand for ten sources for the word "invasion," I demanded sources to back the word “international” you used in the lead paragraph; check the dialogue yourself. Secondly, I do not reject Mr. Knaus’s book. What I have been saying again and again is that such accusations should come form the Tibetans. You have no desire for truth, all you want to do is put muck on China. Go ahead remove all those material (Goldstein's and Xinhua's), see if I care. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Heavens, The American Spectator is not a reliable source for anything; that one-man rant differs from a blog only in the technology it employs; the internet did not exist in 1967. I know it all too well; I used to live in Bloomington, Indiana. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

How sure are you on this? There is quite a bit of info from the aftermath section off that source. Benjwong (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely; the name R. Emmett Tyrell is hard to forget. It is not impossible that he or his contributor has read a reliable source and is reflecting it accurately; but I wouldn't count on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The article was not written by Tyrrell but by John Roberts. The American Spectator is not even remotely a one man rant (although I will agree it is conservative and anti-Kennedy). Articles this week (June 2-6th) were written by:

• Philip Klein
• Tyrrell
• Quin Hillyer
• David Weigel
• Robert Stacy McCain
• G. Tracy Mehan
• John Tabin
• William Tucker
• Peter Ferrara
• Lisa Fabrizio
• Daniel Allott
• Tom Bethell
• Jeffrey Lord
• Dawn Eden
• Juan Carlos Hidalgo
• Larry Thornberry
• George H. Wittman
• W. James Antle III
• Andrew Cline
• John Lomperis
• Hal G.P. Colebatch

I don't know where Septentrionalis PMAnderson is getting his information, but the list of contributors is clear. It's not blog, it's a magazine, and there are many different writers contributing, like any other magazine. Longchenpa (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Simplify name

I propose to simplify the name to Invasion of Tibet (1950–1951) as it was in the beginning. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course it would be best if the name of the page would be The Invasion of Tibet 1950-1951. Even more accurate would be "The Invasion and Annexation of Tibet 1950-1951". --Sean Maleter (talk) 18:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is moving to PLA military occupation of Tibet (1950-1951) as per above discussion. There was no consensus with the invasion name. The move will probably happen in a few days. Benjwong (talk) 19:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

There was no annexation, since Tibet was under Chinese sovereignty both before and after 1950, and no government has ever said otherwise. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I left messages earlier on the talk pages of a number of users. So far only user Littlebutterfly has proposed a new name. These objections do not help. We need name proposals. Benjwong (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no justification for saying occupation because one contingent of users decline to accept anything else. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

When you say contingent of users, are you implying we can't move because 1 user refuses? Sorry I am trying to understand better what you were saying. Benjwong (talk) 05:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see what is wrong with the current name, which was voted on and agreed upon. Are we going to have a referendum every week on this? Yunfeng (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read the above. Alot of people had a problem with the invasion name. If there is one thing I agree with you is that this has been a huge waste of time each week as people cannot make up their mind. Therefore it probably is stuck as an "invasion" with no true consensus. Benjwong (talk) 16:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Name results so far

Here are the results so far. Please propose more names. Otherwise the most supported candidates will soon be the name of the article. Benjwong (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

PLA invasion of Tibet (1950-1951)

• Many support. Many do not support.

PRC diplomacy in Tibet (1950-1958)

• No supporter.

PRC military reclamation of Tibet (1950-1951)

• No supporter.

Military establishment of the Tibet Autonomous Region (1950-1951)

• No supporter.

PLA entry to Tibet (1950-1951)

• No supporter.

People's Liberation Army occupation of Tibet (1950-1951) <---- Candidate

• Many support. A few do not support.

People's Liberation Army military occupation of Tibet (1950-1951) <---- Candidate

• Many support. A few do not support.

Chamdo war

• A few support. Many do not support.

Invasion of Chamdo

• A few support. Many do not support.

Chinese occupation of Tibet (1950/51) (or Chinese military occupation) Yaan (talk) 10:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

This will likely not work. According to UN Resolution 2758 the ROC was Chinese until 1971 in the international eye. If they feel Tibet is on international soil, then ROC/other Chinese had nothing to do with this event. Benjwong (talk) 05:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

We can mention "People's Liberation Army" in the first paragraph. That a number of countries found it convenient to uphold the fiction that China was ruled from Taibei should have no relation to this article. Outside Wikipedia everyone refers to this as something that Chinese did. Yaan (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing People's Liberation Army occupation of Tibet (1950-Current)Oiboy77 (talk) 07:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't either, but that would be a different article (although this one already has a lot of extraneous crap about the 1959 uprising). Yunfeng (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

This title is not good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CcLao (talk • contribs) 00:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

How about "PLA's Expedition in Tibet", just like how wiki has an article on "British Expedition of Tibet". I think "Expedition" is a lot more neutral than "invasion" or "liberation", since it can mean both depending on who's reading the article. Gnip (talk) 6:44, 03 May 2008 (UTC)

Expedition implies going out of your country into another country, e.g. Chinese Expeditionary Forces in Burma in the Second World War. Tibet was clearly not part of British sovereign territory, but all government sagree that it was and is a part of Chinese territory, whether you call it sovereignty or suzerainty.

"PRC assertion of control in Tibet" is one of the most neutral descriptors I've seen used in the news media. Any takers? Maybe PRC assertion of control in Tibet (1950-1951)?

Rationale: this term does not assume anything about whether Tibet was independent, whether the PRC had title to Tibet, whether the ROC still had title to Tibet, whether the PRC invaded or Tibet surrendered, the nature of the PLA's operations, whether the PRC represents China, whether Tibet is p art of China, whether the ROC represents China, etc. It is accurate in that 1) the PRC had never had actual control in Tibet before, and 2) afterwards it did have (some degree of) control. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The reasons for calling it an invasion rather than an expedition have been rolled out I don't know how many times on this very page, and they boil down to this:

IT'S CALLED AN INVASION IN ENGLISH

This article is about that event. It's not about the political process by which Tibet was annexed, and it's not about other non-invasion-related activities that the PLA may have undertaken in Tibet. It doesn't matter if you think that some other word is more neutral, because we don't use that word when we talk about this event when we are speaking English. To make the article NPOV, it's enough to state that some people don't think it should be called an invasion in the intro, which, last I checked, this article does. Yunfeng (talk) 16:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Invasion" clearly does not enjoy consensus or majority support. That the article is currently where it is is the result of an unfortuante conjunction of circumstances and is illegitimate. A move poll that should have been closed as "non consensus" was closed - by a participant in the present discussion, no less - as "move" in disregard to the entire discussion. It was then involved in an illegitimate move-war and finally protected - but not moved back after the end of protection. However, there is no point to argue about that process because it was in the past and the need now is to find a new point of best consensus.

Please just accept the fact that your "invasion" thesis is not getting consensus support and work constructively towards a solution instead of destructively shouting in caps and bold. Not good form.

Now, what do others, apart from User:Yunfeng, think? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There is not an "invasion thesis". There is no need for an invasion thesis. There is no need for a vote on names proposed with no reference to naming policy. The reality is that this is the English Wikipedia, where the Invasion of Tibet is known as the Invasion of Tibet, because it is the name of the Invasion of Tibet in English writing on the subject. The references are on the page. John Nevard (talk) 04:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"Assertion of control" sounds pretty neutral, I'm fine with that. As for the use of "invasion" because other sources use it... they also use "occupation", "incorporation", "annexation", "liberation", etcc... even in English. So I think a word that could mean all of these things should be fine. Gnip (talk) 11:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The "Assertion of control" name definitely works for me. Benjwong (talk) 01:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[offtopic]I disappeared for a while because I had some quality control that I felt was more important on Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (i.e. making sure the page recognized it was propaganda)[/offtopic] It was an invasion, and if the page mentions that there is some dissent against it being an invasion, (as Yunfeng stated) it should remain where it is. It is unfortunate that the first move request ended early, but that does not deter from the fact that a substantial majority of the votes were in support for the move to this title Thegreyanomaly (talk) 04:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This discussion has reached a circle and is likely not going anywhere. I don't have a problem with it being called an invasion as long as there was balance on both pages, such as calling the British expedition to Tibet an "invasion". In the ideal world this page should match the neutrality all the way across. At least the users above are admitting this is English wikipedia and will bend to an English audience perspective. Benjwong (talk) 04:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Invasion" is clearly POV (even if also calling British expedition an "invasion", which implies both are really invasions), whereas "Assertion of control" sounds much neutral. Why not change it right now?--207.112.34.108 (talk) 20:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Assertion of control is... awkward. The title here is going to have to take a point of view, since we have to pick one title and it should probably be the least awkward one that's acceptable to all parties. Besides, are there any sources that call the even that? It seems somewhat arbitrary. I don't think we should concoct an entirely new name to avoid apparent bias. Gimme danger (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Then we should consider change to "occupation" (as listed), which is not awkward. And it's more neutral than "invasion". Plus, it is actually used by some sources, so it's not arbitary. Even if we have to take a point of view, we cannot not take a view that is obviously and extremely biased.--207.112.34.108 (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I like "occupation" as well, but other editors are concerned that the date range make the article scope unclear... there's a discussion in the archive about this if you'd like to read the gory details. But definitely, invasion is probably out of the range of acceptable names. --Gimme danger (talk) 21:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Did oppressive “feudal serfdom” exist in Tibet before the Chinese arrived?

This is a very controversial and complex subject so I have added a section on it in the article itself. However, because some readers will likely be unsatisfied with my brief summary, I thought I should give more evidence here and have, therefore, decided to quote fairly extensively from Robert Barnett’s careful and (I believe) balanced examination of the evidence:

“Melvyn Goldstein, an American anthropologist who carried out research within Tibet into pre-1959 social relations, concluded that most Tibetans before 1959 were bound by written documents to the land on which they were based and to the lord who owned that land, and so he argued that they could be described as “serfs” (Goldstein 1986, 1988). Most Western scholars accept that this was broadly the case, but query the extensiveness of the practice and the politics behind the terms used to describe it. . . . W. M. Coleman (1998) has pointed out that in practice the Tibetans had more autonomy than appears in the written documents, and that Tibetans could equally well be described simply as peasants with particular kinds of debts and taxation responsibilities, rather than using a politically and morally loaded term such as “serf.” Other scholars have noted that such social categories, Marxist or otherwise, are in any case rooted in European history and do not match the social system of pre-1951 Tibet, let alone the very different arrangements found among the people of eastern Tibet.

These scholars do not disagree with the Chinese claims that Tibet had a particular form of social relations that differed from those later found in democratic and Communist countries. What is contested is whether later scholars or politicians should use terms that imply a value judgment about the moral qualities of these relations. This is a matter of intense dispute because the Chinese claim about serfdom, on the surface a factual account of social relations, in fact depends for its effects on its linkage to two other elements which are highly contestable–feudalism and extreme oppression. It is taken for granted that these are inseparable from serfdom. A conscious effort of the intellect is required to recall that one does not follow from the other.

There is no question that Tibet was an extremely poor society for most of its members, or that the poorest were the most likely to exploitation and abuse. This was true of most sectors of any society in Asia and elsewhere until recently, including China, and is still true today in many areas. So even if it was agreed that serfdom and feudalism existed in Tibet, this would be little different except in technicalities from conditions in any other “premodern” peasant society, including most of China at that time. The power of the Chinese argument therefore lies in its implication that serfdom, and with it feudalism, is inseparable from extreme abuse.

Evidence to support this linkage has not been found by scholars other than those close to Chinese government circles. Goldstein, for example, notes that although the system was based on serfdom, it was not necessarily feudal, and he refutes any automatic link with extreme abuse. “I have tried to indicate that the use of the term ‘serfdom’ for Tibet does not imply that lords tortured and otherwise grossly mistreated their serfs. . . . There is no theoretical reason why serfdom should be inexorably linked to such abuses,” he writes, noting that extreme maltreatment was unlikely since it would have been against the interests of the landowners, who needed the peasants to provide labor (1988: 64-65).

There seems to be limited evidence of the systematic savagery described by Chinese writers, at least since the late nineteenth century. There was a famous case of mutilation as a punishment in 1924, but the officials involved were themselves punished by the 13th Dalai Lama for this action, he had banned all such punishments in a proclamation in 1913 (Goldstein 1989: 123-26, 61). A case of judicial eye gouging in 1934 as a punishment for treason was clearly exceptional, since no one living knew how to carry it out (Goldstein 1989: 208-9). On the other hand, there are hundreds of reports, many of them firsthand accounts of Tibetan political prisoners being severely tortured in Chinese prisons during the early 1990s, as well as almost ninety cases of suspicious deaths in custody (see, e.g. TCHRD 2005), none of which have been independently investigated.” From: ”What were the conditions regarding human rights in Tibet before democratic reform?” By Robert Barnett in: Authenticating Tibet: Answers to China’s 100 Questions, pp. 81-83. Eds. Anne-Marie Blondeau and Katia Buffetrille. (2008). University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-24464-1 (cloth); ISBN 978-0-520-24928-8 (paper). Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 20:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)