Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise

RfC: Notability compromise

WP:Notability is a guideline that determines which articles should be included in Wikipedia. This guideline has withstood several disputes, although it is unclear exactly how this guideline should be interpreted. The General Notability Guideline states that a topic is notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject (or, more succinctly, coverage in reliable third-party sources). Even though editors generally accept this as true, there are two issues without a clear consensus:

1. What is the notability of a "spin-out" article? Does it need reliable third-party sources, or can it inherit notability from a parent article?
2. What is the relationship between WP:Notability and specific guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people)? To what extent can subject-specific guidelines re-write or override the General Notability Guideline?

For the sake of this discussion, it is important to ignore Wikipedians who abuse this guideline to delete articles that are actually notable, or keep information that is clearly not notable. Yes, abuse is a legitimate problem. But we cannot target abuse of the guideline until we have defined its proper use.

Events leading to this RFC (why this RfC is important and necessary)

In recent months, discussions on notability have become more frequent and contentious. There have been literally dozens of interpretations of how the notability guideline should be interpreted. However, virtually every attempt at a compromise has faced resistance. As such, most discussions about the finer details of notability end in "no consensus".

The lack of consensus has prompted this RFC. Wikipedians from all points of view have tried to find a middle ground. From the dozens of interpretations of our guidelines, only a few have gained enough support that it would be possible for them to be supported by the larger Wikipedia community. We hope that one of these proposals will be adopted to clarify central issues with the notability guidelines, and allow other discussions to move forward.

Terminology

• "Appropriate sources": shorthand for "significant coverage in reliable third-party sources". These are sources that help an article meet the GNG.
• "GNG": the General Notability Guideline. This says that "if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable." It also defines words such as "significant", "reliable source", "independent", and "presumed".
• "SNG": the subject specific notability guidelines such as WP:MUSIC and WP:ATHLETE.
• "Spin-out" or "Sub-article": an article that is created by splitting a long section out from another article. For the purposes of this discussion, it does not refer to the technology use of subpages.
• "RFC": Request for Comment, a discussion that Wikipedians use to resolve disputes among smaller groups of editors.

Issue A: Notability of "spin-out" articles

Issue: Wikipedians dispute whether every article must prove its own notability, or if notability of one topic can allow several articles to claim notability. On one hand, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia: there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover. On the other hand, it is unclear how a verifiable article is to be written without coverage in reliable third-party sources.

Proposal A.1: Every spin-out is notable

Proposal: A spin-out article is treated as a section of its parent article. If a parent article is supported by reliable third-party sources, then its sub-articles do not need reliable third-party sources to qualify for inclusion. A sub-article is notable when it extends one section of a notable parent article.


Rationale: It is not desirable to delete sub articles with a lack of appropriate sources. It makes more sense to treat those articles as extended components of their parent articles. Splitting content from an article into sub-articles is a practice recommended by the recommended length of articles and summary style approach. By treating sub-articles as though they were sections in the larger article, this would allow editors to write detailed articles on specialized topics.

Support A.1

1. Support (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Oppose A.1

1. Oppose Spin-out articles should be treated rather cautiously since they often constitute WP:content forks and, on occasion, WP:POV forks. These issues need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis and, as necessary and appropriate, covered by specialized notability guidelines. The point is, notability is not the only consideration in deciding whether or not a particular topic merits a separate article. Nsk92 (talk) 05:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

   Also, can be used to violate the "notability is not inherited" principle, which is one of the cornerstones of WP:N and all the other notability guidelines. Nsk92 (talk) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

2. Oppose I agree with Nsk92, as the opportunity to create spinout articles which utilise the same content is almost limitless. An example of a POV/Content fork where this has already happened is The Terminator: current forks are Terminator (character), Terminator (character concept) and Terminator (franchise). Basically all these articles cover the same ground, but from different angles. It may be obvious to an "expert" which article is the true Terminator article, but Wikipedia is not the place for expert opinion, rather it is the citation of reliable secondary sources that provides evidence that the subject is notable rather than a POV/content fork. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. Oppose A bucket with a logic hole. Almost any modern-day TV show XYZ can serve as an example; they obviously deserve a wiki article. Most editors will also agree that List of XYZ episodes is a suitable article ("list") for wikipedia, and that it (or its lead) can be expanded with dozens of third-party sources. So, if this proposal gets accepted, this means all its dozens and sometimes hundreds of episodes (sub-articles of the List of episodes) get a wildcard for their own article and can be as plotty, crufty and ORish as fans wish even though no producer commentary or third-party sources exists *at all*. No, thanks. – sgeureka ^t•c 11:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
4. Too broad. Protonk (talk) 13:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
5. Oppose Far too broad. I think we need to institutionalize "List of episodes" and "List of characters" as a compromise, and stop there.Kww (talk) 14:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on A.1

1. Comment (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Proposal A.2: Every spin-out must prove notability

Proposal: The notability requirement applies to every article, every time, and sub-articles must assert notability of their own subject. If they can't, and the parent article is becoming bloated with information about it, it's time to trim, not to split.


Rationale: Our notability guidelines are essential to maintain all of Wikipedia's high standards. An article with zero reliable third-party sources cannot meet our policy on verifiability, which says that "if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Without reliable third-party sources, an article may also violate other policies about what Wikipedia is not.

Support A.2

1. Support with the caveat that notability through third-party sources needs not be immediately (time of article creation) but eventually be demonstrated (a week, a month, or on demand). The overuse of primary sources calls for a trim and potential merge per WP:UNDUE, but is not necessarily a sign that a spin-out article should be deleted in its entirety. – sgeureka ^t•c 11:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Support: if over time, a subsection of an article gets too long, then either it is a notable subject in itself, and can get its own article, or it is a case of undue weight on a non notable subtopic and should get trimmed. The only exception I can see is with lists where none of the subsections are notable enough for an article, but the main list gets too long anyway. An example would be a list of episodes which gets split in to season lists. But this should only be done when the number of subsections gets too high, not when the individual subsections get too big. Fram (talk) 12:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. Support. Reflects the best current practices, although the specifics of what this means should be worked out in SNGs and elsewhere. I would say that the formulation of A2 is not quite sufficient. One also needs to look at whether the subtopic is sufficiently coherent as a subtopic to be suitable for a stand-alone article and if it has sufficiently wide coverage as a subtopic, and sometimes sufficient independent notability. Some of these issues need to be worked out in SNGs (e.g. WP:MUSIC specifies that band members should demonstrate sufficient independent notability from the band to merit a separate article). Some of these issues probably do not belong in notability guidelines at all but rather in general style guidelines or in other policies (such as WP:BLP1E, issues of content and POV forking, article length, etc). I actually disagree with the caveat mentioned by Sgeureka above. An article needs to be able to survive an AfD at the moment of its creation. That is, the requisite sources proving notability should, at the very least, be producible on demand. This is consistent with the WP:V spirit and requirements. Saying that one may need to wait a month or some undetermined amount of time before the necessary sources may materialize is not sufficient. Nsk92 (talk) 12:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

   (Are we allowed to comment to each other?) Being able to survive AfD is not equivalent with assertion of notability. E.g. the articles of Daniel Jackson and Jack Shephard, created in 2004 and 2005, lacked and still lack any demonstration of (independent) notability (the few bits of real-world info were just added recently), and serious attempts to AfD or merge them would either result in speedy-keeps (without any improvements to the articles) or topic-bans by arbcom. Add-third-party-sources-now-or-die approaches are simply not well developed at en.wiki yet, but the word "eventually" helps us until we get there (de.wiki already has a seven days AfD-!vote option, which I quite like). – sgeureka ^t•c 13:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

   I think we are allowed to comment on each other's endorsements, I don't see a problem here. What I mean is that an article needs to be able to survive an AfD at the moment of creation and that, if pressed, the article's creator needs to be able to establish requisite notability in such an AfD and not have to appeal to WP:CRYSTAL type arguments. This does not mean that an article actually needs to have all the requisite sources in it at the moment of creation (although it is desirable) or even sometime later. But it should be possible to make a convincing contemporaneous keep case if pressed. Certain types of sources are not in fact appropriate for inclusion in the article, such as, say, hundreds of citations of the work of some academic used to establish notability of such an academic. But it is important that they exist and be producible in an AfD if necessary. Nsk92 (talk) 13:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

4. Support: I think we need to institutionalize "List of episodes" and "List of characters" as exceptions, and stop there.Kww (talk) 14:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
5. Support. This is a great idea, and should help reduce the flood of trivial spinoff articles (many of which end up in AFD). RobJ1981 (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose A.2

1. Oppose until you better define notability. WP:V calls for a reliable third party source. WP:N calls for "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The guidance contradicts policy, and the tail is wagging the dog. yes, we need to be able to source information, but there are instances when we can source minimal content on someone or something which merits coverage by dint of achievement. We need to reflect that this process is not black and white. Minimal coverage can be reflected in a small article. Our minimal coverage may inspire people to seek more facts and publish more material we can summarise. We are beholden to writing neutrally. This should mean more care is taken in deciding what we write about by avoiding as much prejudice as possible in what we summarise. This means we should take care to not limit ourselves to subjects on which a propensity of material has been published only. This isn't to say we should cover anything and everything; however, we purport to be a comprehensive encyclopedia. We should not compromise that position based on elitism. I for one would rather have a stub or a redirect on an obscure 19th century Olympic medallist than no coverage of that person at all. If that means opposing the GNG in principle to improve Wikipedia, so-be-it. Hiding T 12:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose - What happened to the idea of WP:Summary style, and splitting articles? The biggest problem I see with this idea are things which are types of lists. The list may be an inherent part of an article, but since it's a list it's sometimes better to split it to a separate page. But that doesn't mean that the list itself should need to determine "extra-notability", I would presume? Episode or Cast lists for a TV series, for example. I think that this "all-or-nothing" approach may not be the best idea. - jc37 12:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on A.2

1. Comment (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Proposal A.3: Some spin-outs are notable

Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (people) or WP:Notability (music) can define what subtopics inherit notability from a main topic. A specific topic can inherit notability from a larger topic under clearly defined conditions. That is, in clearly defined special cases, notability can be inherited in the absence of reliable third-party sources.


Rationale: This would clarify the existing relationship between the general notability guideline (GNG) and other subject specific notability guidelines (SNGs). Our current SNGs declare specific cases where an article without reliable third-party sources can inherit notability from another notable article. For example, WP:Notability (people) suggests that an entertainer may be notable if they have a significant role in multiple notable productions. Also, WP:Notability (music) suggests that an album may be notable if the artist who produced it is notable. Thus, SNGs should continue to to define specific cases where a sub-article of a notable article can be considered notable.

Support A.3

1. Support This is the thrust of our policies, guidance and practises. Article topics need to referenced in a reliable third party source, per WP:V, but the extension of this to "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable" or however it reads this week is harmful and counter-productive. We may be able to find one short article on an Oscar winner; this should not prevent us having an article on this Oscar winner. Subject specific guidance allows us to better delineate this practise. The GNG does not. Hiding T 12:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Support - This is what I was just commenting on in A.2, above. This should presumably allow for splitting where appropriate. - jc37 12:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. These conditions need to be defined, yes, but the basic concept is where were are going. Protonk (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose A.3

1. Oppose as the current consensus is that notability cannot be inherited/presumed/acknowledged. Although subject notability guidelines such as WP:BIO currently include criteria that support a reasonable presumption that reliable sources may exist, I think these criteria are flawed because there are no generally accepted criteria or rule set which support the idea that notability can be inherited/presumed/acknowledged across every subject area, and these unsubstantiated claims of notability are based on subjective "expert" opinion which can only be applied in unique circumstances. Therefore the view that some spin-outs are notable in the an absence of reliable secondary sources is not supported by objective evidence, and any assertion to the contrary is unsubstantiated opinion. For example, the stub Ashley Fernee is considered notable in accordance with WP:BIO#athletes, but the stub has virtually no content, which sugests to me that the a presumption of notability cannot be substantiated. Although many editors will assert that WP:BIO#athletes makes the subject notable, the reader of this article cannot see any objective verifiable evidence of notability, and it is the readers perception, not "expert" opinion that counts at the end of the day. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on A.3

1. Comment It needs to be clarified what "absence of reliable third-party sources" means - absense in the article, or absense as in "likely non-existence". The first may be fixable through time and effort, the latter has no guarantee to be ever fixable. Accordingly, I am fine with allowing a certain inheritance of notability for the former case (depends on the article type), but never for the latter. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Comment As noted above, I favor institutionalizing the "List of Characters" and "List of episodes" exclusions, and I can see how that may be viewed as an inheritance of notability. I truly dislike any claims of inherited or inherent notability, and don't want to get those concepts included in any policy or guideline.Kww (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

   I can live with that as an exception. Hiding T 15:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Additional comments on issue A

Please add any additional comments on this issue here that fall outside the above proposals.

Issue B: Relationship between GNG and SNGss

Issue: Wikipedians dispute the relationship between the general notability guideline and the specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people). This depends on the flexibility of the GNG, and whether SNGs can extend notability to a wider range of articles.

Proposal B.1: Articles must meet the GNG and SNGs

Proposal: An article is notable if it meets the general notability guideline. Additional guidelines which may prevent a topic from being considered notable are listed in the specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people)?


Rationale: This proposal would clarify that every article must pass the general notability guideline. It would also prevent individual projects from writing guidelines that favor inclusion of their material.

Support B.1

1. Support No guideline can be less strict than the general notability guideline, which represents the broad consensus of Wikipedia aeditors, not the consensus between a lesser number of topic-oriented editors. A number of very specofoc guidelines in the past have tried to reason that X has inherent notability, which probably represented the opinion of those editors specifically interested in X, but not the general consensus (which has usually been that anything but geographic names / locations are not inherently notable). Specific guidelines explaining what kind of sources are considered reliable and notable enough and so on for specific subject types can be very useful as an addition to the general notability guideline, but never to replace it. Fram (talk) 12:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Support This is the crux of the problem. People have come to view the specific guidelines as a Get out of jail free card. Can't find sources? Declare your topic inherently notable. I've seen such absolutely ludicrous arguments as If someone bothered to name a bridge, that bridge must be notable. The GNG should be policy, and enforced: if multiple, independent, reliable sources that treat the topic directly and in detail cannot be found, the article needs to be merged somewhere. The purpose of the subordinate guidelines is to document exclusions. Nearly every local band can be sourced: they all wind up with listings and little reviews in their local papers. WP:MUSIC says that we can't include them because they simply aren't important enough to list. Every released single in the course of history has a few sources about it, but WP:MUSIC says that most singles should never have an independent article. In practical fact, if someone could find an article that asserted that it met WP:MUSIC but did not meet WP:N, that article would probably be deleted as a hoax. How could it be verified to meet WP:MUSIC without multiple, independent, third-party sources?

   Another purpose of sub-notability guidelines is to provide guidance on the treatment of sources. There was a lot of debate on the geographic locations guideline as to the treatment of censuses and atlases. That was a valuable discussion, and its results deserve to be summarized in a guideline. Nonsense like named locations are inherently notable does not, and, if some special interest group all gets together to attempt to make inclusion criterion that violate the GNG, those inclusion criterion need to be recognized as invalid on their face.Kww (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose B.1

1. Oppose An exceptionally poor idea. The notability guidelines should be treated as independent and not subordinate to each other. The reality is that as Wikipedia expands and more subjects are covered, more detailed notability guidelines are needed and the utility of the general notability guideline, WP:N is inevitably decreasing. Yes, this has the unfortunate effect of instruction creep, but it is unavoidable and should be embraced and managed appropriately, rather than avoided. The general principles of WP:N, such as adherence to coverage by independent reliable sources and "notability is not inherited" are very good principles and they are in fact utilized by specialized notability guidelines. However, various attempts at imposing "one size fits all" requirements in WP:N regarding the numbers of sources required, and the like, are very counterproductive, if we start imposing them across the board with no exceptions. There are way too many differences, too many special cases, too many de facto consensus conventions that cannot possibly fit into one general WP:N formula. For example, geographic settlements are generally considered inherently notable, once basic WP:V requirements are satisfied, even if there are no independent reliable sources covering them in depth. There are a few other things that appear to be considered inherently notable (e.g. accredited colleges and universities), although consensus there is still developing and remains to be hashed out. Lots of exceptions exist (and do need to exist) in other cases. E.g., under WP:BIO, an olympic medalist in some fairly obscure sport is considered notable even if there is not a lot of independent coverage available. In music and fiction standards are still being worked out, and probably notability guidelines for things like streets and places will have to be worked out too. It is reasonable and necessary to have specific and different notability standards, with their own sets of exceptions, for very different things, such as, say, movie actors, books and academics. Imposing a single across-the-board standard in terms of notability by making all the other notability guidelines subordinate to WP:N may sound good in theory but would be extremely counterproductive in practice. Nsk92 (talk) 04:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose per Nsk92 and my own comments above. Hiding T 12:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. Oppose - per the two above. - jc37 12:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
4. Nope. Notability guidelines are written to be includes (Rather than the NFCC, which are exclusive). It is unlikely that a subject will meet a daughter guideline and not meet the GNG, but if it does, we could still argue to keep the article. Protonk (talk) 13:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on B.1

1. Comment (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Proposal B.2: SNGs can outline sources that assert notability

Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) should be allowed to clarify the kinds of sources that can assert notability for specific areas of interest.


Rationale: This reflects and cements the current practice. The general notability guideline requires that any topic have significant coverage in reliable third-party sources. When we think of sources, we think of journals, books, academic articles, and so on. But we also have WP:Notability (music) that says notability can be asserted from "sources" such as having a certified gold record in one country, or charting a hit on a national music chart. These provide an alternative objectively verifiable standard to show notability, other than research from reliable third-party sources. This would clarify the relationship between the general notability guideline and specific notability guidelines, which is not explicitly stated as of yet.

Support B.2

1. Support Goes without saying and reflects the current practice, so that it is largely a moot point. SNGs need to (and they do), on occasion specify what kind of weight to assign to what kind of sources and possibly to exclude certain kinds of sources. For politicians coverage only in local newspapers in usually not enough; for academics self-published and non-refereed publications are usually discounted, as are local, university level and graduate.postdoctoral level awards; for notability of criminal acts the standards are still being developed, but in practice some coverage beyond local coverage is required; etc. Nsk92 (talk) 05:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Support, but... when these guidelines and the general notability guideline give different results, the general notability guideline should have precedence. An article on charted record should usually be kept, because in general, records that hit the charts also receive enough attention from reliable sources. If however an article meets a specific guideline but fails the notability guideline (not only "fails in its current state", but "gives the impression of not being able to meet the notability guideline"), then the article should be deleted (after due discussion and so on). If such exceptions happen regularly, the specific guideline should be changed to address this. Fram (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. Support per Nsk92 and own comments above. Hiding T 12:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
4. Support - common practice. And it would seem to make sense, as each WikiProject would likely have a better, or at least a decent, idea about how reliable references are, and what would constitute GNG for articles under their purview. - jc37 12:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
5. Support. I didn't know this was current practice, but it's a good idea, presuming that it is policed tightly. Protonk (talk) 13:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose B.2

1. Oppose Language here is very bad, and logic is strained. Of course an SNG is used to clarify the nature of sources, but clarifying the nature of a source doesn't lead to it being allowed to claim that sources are unnecessary.Kww (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Neutral on B.2

1. Comment (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Proposal B.3: SNGs can define when sources probably exist

Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) can define objective evidence that would show that sufficient reliable third-party sources probably exist. However, every article still requires appropriate sources, and the presumption of notability can be refuted by evidence that sources do not exist.


Rationale: This reflects and cements the current practice. Many of the subguidelines for notability offer alternative criteria for articles that might not otherwise meet the general notability guideline. For example, WP:Notability (music) that says that any artist with a certified gold record may be notable. This simplifies the burden of finding reliable third-party sources to verify an article, while still requiring that all articles are properly verified.

Support B.3

1. Support but weakly. I don't like the phrasing, but this is really how things work. As above, if an article meets WP:MUSIC, it's going to meet the GNG as well. If someone could actually find an album that charted on multiple national charts that no one else had ever written about, there could be a problem, but that is a very unusual situation that approaches time for WP:IAR. If a sub-notability guideline is documenting reasonable criteria, then the GNG will be satisfied. It's only when people start making claims like All asteroids are inherently notable that there's a problem, and the lack of secondary sources should be enough to allow for deletion of the article.Kww (talk) 15:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Support (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Oppose B.3

1. Oppose Maybe I misunderstand this, but if I read this correctly, this certainly goes against the current practices and consensus. SNGs should be and are allowed to set sufficient conditions for notability, period (not because they indicate that some other sources may exist but because satisfying these conditions is, in and of itself, proof of notability). For example, winning an olympic medal is sufficient for proving notability even if you cannot find an article discussing the athlete's favorite toothpaste. Being an elected fellow of the Royal Society is sufficient proof of academic notability even if you can't find a biographical article about a scholar in question. Being a permanent settlement is sufficient proof of notability even if nobody has bothered to include the place in a guidebook. And so on. Nsk92 (talk) 05:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose per Nsk92 and own comments above. Hiding T 12:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
3. No. the lord works in mysterious ways, as it were. We can't define beforehand where sources are likely to be. Protonk (talk) 13:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on B.3

1. I think that this one is too vague. Every time I read it, I interpret it differently : ) - jc37 12:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Comment (Enter comments here and remember to sign your user name.)

Proposal B.4: SNGs are not needed

Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) really serve no purpose beyond WP:N. One consistent and universal guideline will be sufficient.

Rationale: These subject specific guidelines generally evolved prior to the adoption of WP:N and are now obsolete. Most of these came to "consensus" when few people were paying attention. The problems are: (1) the methodology is inconsistent among the subject specific guidelines which leads to confusion, (2) topics overlap subject specific guidelines which creates further confusion, and (3) special interest groups can gain control over subject specific guidelines by dominating the discussion and claiming a local consensus. In all cases the benefit does not justify the harm to the project.

Additional comments

Please add any additional comments that involve notability that fall outside the scope of the above two issues here.

Comment - I started a topic a few days ago in VP (tech) about creating sub-articles (separated by a slash) that may make "spin-off" articles more feasable. You might want to take a look at it. SharkD (talk) 04:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Voting is evil. --Carnildo (talk) 05:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• (With apologies) I never understood this. If voting is evil, why are dictators also evil? And what is consensus, if not voting with your feet. You think of all the time and effort people put into claiming that guns aren't evil, and no-one's ever bothered to counter this absurdism. We need ill-applied doggerel:

“ Voting may be evil,

but then life isn't fair.
If you don't express an opinion,
you don't get to care,
and when we make a decision,
you can stick it up there.

”

• Best, Hiding T 08:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)