Wikipedia talk:Good articles

GA template issues

Why does it take so long for messages posted on the GA review page to appear on the article talk page? --Phenylalanine (talk) 12:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:PURGE. Geometry guy 13:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this link should be indicated on the GA banner. Cheers, Phenylalanine (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

A purge link is currently included until the subpage is created. Gimmetrow 13:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

One could also be added to the "This discussion is transcluded from..." text if there is a demand for it. Geometry guy 14:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Good articles/recent

At Wikipedia:Good articles/recent, I have been trying to add delisted articles here since there is no where else to summarize delistings. People keep changing Recently listed/delisted good articles to Recently listed good articles. Is there a reason not to announce delistings there.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The list should be for newly listed articles ONLY. Is is neither necessary nor appropriate to add delisted articles to the list. The practice should be discontinued immediately. Dr. Cash (talk) 02:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Another milestone!

1 in 500 Wikipedia articles are GAs! Congratulations and keep writing GAs! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 11:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Note 5139 * 500 = 2,569,500 is less than the current article count (c.2,573,400). However, the milestone was crossed sometime today, because at least 20 additional articles have been listed (net) since the count was updated this morning (UTC). This rapid change is partly a result of the current backlog elimination drive. Geometry guy 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

... and partly because the GA Sweeps Project isn't delisting articles fast enough. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:GAPQ/S. I'm neutral :-) Geometry guy 21:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm neutral too, I was just saying. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Darn... I was just feeling the need to delist some articles to spoil some fun</sarcasm> OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 00:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm fast becoming the Great Destroyer of GA articles. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Dang, I used to hold that title. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 00:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It is my ambition to catch up with your number of sweeps reviews, but I'm not sure I'll manage to live that long. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

ATM Malleus has delisted 51 out of 143 articles reviewed, while Nehrams has delisted 46 out of 311, so I think Malleus has the title of "great destoryer of GA articles" aready ;-) Well done everyone who's contributed to getting 1 in every 500 articles to GA standard, especially the reviewers, without whom no one would know if GAs are up to scratch. Nev1 (talk) 02:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It does seem kind of harsh, but so far as I'm aware only one of those delistings was challenged at WP:GAR, where it was endorsed. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Damn. I've fallen so far behind in the delisting sweep, it's not funny. If Gguy Malleus Jimbo someone would care to take on my copyedit backlog, maybe I could get back in contention... :P EyeSerene^talk 13:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on process for delisting a Good Article

Q: Is it acceptable to ignore point 4 in the process (and thus effectively point 3 and 5)

A: I would contend this is impolite and the instructions on this page should be followed to the letter as far as is possible.--ZincBelief (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: Background information on why ZincBelief initiated this RfC can be found here OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 22:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Point 4 only applies to Good Article Reassessment discussions directly. There is no requirement for a formal reassement to be done, articles which are patently below the GA standard can be removed without discussion, though it is equally the right of someone to list the action for community reassement at the WP:GAR page. If someone has delisted an article without discussion, then bring it up for discussion yourself. If there is a widespread consensus to return the GA status, then that will be done. The little green plus that appears on the talk page is not a big deal and if you genuinely believe that a delisted article meets the criteria, start a community GAR and explain why you think what you do. Certainly many borderline cases require formal discussion, however there are always some really horrendous articles that "sneak through" the process, or are old articles which have been missed (not sure how, with the many sweeps we have done), and thus we should not force discussion where none is really needed. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayron, you are behind the times, I think: point 4 is about individual reassessment, not community GARs. The latter are only needed where individual reassessment goes wrong, but individual reassessment still should provide a review, and preferably (? and this is the main issue of this debate in my view) an opportunity to fix problems. Geometry guy 22:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If we are supposed to be a community here at wikipedia, how can we allow an individual to act like this. The work that people put in to reach GA status should be respected, the opportunity should be there to correct problems. The badge shouldn't simply be snatched away because it can be snatched away. It should be taken away when the community shows a lack of interest or a lack of aptitude in correcting issues with a page. It is just fundamentally impolite to take it away, stick two fingers up at those protesting, and tell them to go fix it and renominate if they don't like it. That is not due process. That is rash, provocative and unregulated.--ZincBelief (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There should be certain circumstances when an article may be summarily delisted by a reviewer without a waiting period. GA sweepers should have the latitude to summarily delist an article which has, for example, a large number of unsourced quotations and no references. Majoreditor (talk) 23:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we can allow drive-by delistings, as this would lead to some editors de-listing articles whose subject matter and / or editors they don't like. That means rules are needed and must be followed, including the need for reassessments to show how and where an articles falls below current GA criteria and to allow reasonable time for articles to be brought up to current GA standards. While I agree that Ireland, the article over which this discussion started, has too many paragraphs and even sections that lack citations, I think summary delisting was just plain wrong and, if applied to other articles, would lead to feuds, retaliatory delistings, etc.

Similarly I also disagree with the claim made at Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_reassessment#Ireland_GAR that the presence of just 1 "weasel" or "citation needed" tag is grounds for summary delisting, as getting articles delisted via drive-by tagging would also lead to feuds, etc.

Who elected "GA sweepers"? -- Philcha (talk) 23:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Who elected GA reviewers? I take exception to your suggestion that I delisted Ireland in a drive-by whim. The article was way below what is expected of a GA. If there is now a consensus that all articles once listed ought to remain GAs because it may upset an editor or two who hasn't even taken the trouble to watch the article's degradation since its listing, then so be it. You're welcome to your world. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally Malleus, I don't think you have any right to contribute to this RFC until you apologise for telling somebody to "STFU" because they questioned your delisting. Wikipedia doesn't need that. This is not about article degredation, it is about inappropriate behaviour within the Wikipedia community. --ZincBelief (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I feel certain you will understand why I don't give a toss what you think, or even if you're capable of thought at all. Try to leave me alone now, and focus on the bigger issue which has been raised here. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Err, Zinc, so your point of starting this RfC is not questioning whether it is "acceptable to ignore point 4 in the process (and thus effectively point 3 and 5)", but to reroute the attention to Malleus' behavior? Sounds like ad hominem to me, but to the point of personal attack on Malleus just to get the message across. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Malleus is the one who feels this is all about him. I am explaining why I think process is important here as you can see. You can take his behaviour as an example however. Rather than explain to somebody why their behaviour is wrong, it can be sometimes easier to let loose a host of expletives at them. Swearing is a poor substitute for well reasoned argument. Summary delisting is a poor substitute for the GA delisting instructions.--ZincBelief (talk) 09:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think everyone misunderstands me. Of course the usual process is to file the individual GAR and wait for discussion, however, per WP:SNOW, we don't merely follow process for process's sake. If, perchance, an article is delisted without going through the formal "individual" GAR, there is no impending doom. Simply ask for wider consensus via community GAR, and make appropriate changes to status based on the results of that discussion. The problem is that we do not follow process for process sake. Most of the time, the individual GAR review, with appropriate time given to respond to criticisms, is the right thing to do, and should usually be followed. However, to say we follow the process every time, without regard to unique cases, merely to follow the process, is against the very core Wikipedia. We have WP:SNOW delistings and closings of discussions all over Wikipedia; no process is followed to its end if it has no reasonable chance of success. If GAR were to implement this sort of forced adherance to the exact letter of the process, it would be the only such process at Wikipedia to do this. If there are any individual delistings that you think should not have been delisted, based on the content of the article, then feel free to open a community GAR. But to force an individual GAR to remain open some arbitrary length of time, merely to adhere to process, without regard for reason, seems silly.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I see no compelling need to resort to WP:SNOW here. Why summarily delist? Why not leave it a day or two? What is gained by a summary delisting? I don't feel anything is being gained but irritation of people interested in an article.--ZincBelief (talk) 23:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If you have a specific problem with a delisted article, then list that article at WP:GAR for a community-wide discussion. Again, if this process does not, in some instances, apply WP:SNOW, it would be the only one at Wikipedia to do so. Which article, when delisted in this manner, do you believe should not have been delisted? Is there a specific example of an article that should have remained on the GA list when it was delisted in this manner, but was not? No one felt that the Ireland article belonged at GA, the end result of the discussion was that the ultimate result, that the article be removed, occurred anyways. Again, why force a subject to go through a process where that process stands no chance of fixing the problem?--Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Bit presumptious isn't it? This is a general point anyway. It is better to follow the procedures when doing a delisting. When summarily delisting wrongly you annoy people a hell of a lot more than attempting a delisting wrongly through the normal processes. I mean, otherwise you might as well just delete the GA tag without the pretence of doing a review. It's all about basic manners for me. There is nothing wrong with giving people a chance to fix the problems, it gives editors a better idea of what is wrong with the article. That means in the long run it will return to GA status faster.--ZincBelief (talk) 23:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If these people were so interested in the article, then why did they not have it watchlisted? Why did they let it degrade? Why is it that that every Irish article sems to have these kinds of problems? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Malleus, maybe because you told them to shut the fuck up? Perhaps they didn't notice the GA criteria changed. Perhaps they felt the article looked fine as it was. Perhaps they didn't have the time. It doesn't really matter. Just learn to be polite.--ZincBelief (talk) 23:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, that is twice, ZincBelief, that you have accused Malleus of using the phrase "shut the fuck up". Two issues:

1. This is not an RFC about Malleus's behavior. Such discussions do not belong on this page, and if there is an issue about Malleus's behavior, take it to WP:WQA, not here.
2. You can't just make a statement like that and not back it up with diffs. Malleus is a longstanding editor here, and if you're going to accuse him of bad faith, you should have evidence to back that up.

So please, post a diff, start a WQA report, but lets keep the discussion here on the relevent issue, which is whether an article, which stands no chance of meeting GA standards within any short amount of time, needs to remain on the GA list simply to blindly follow process. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And on here[1], ZincBelief called Malleus "acting like a dick", "not a responsible editor", & "a loose cannon" in a single paragraph. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I find your remarks slightly confusing. Ohana, you are well aware of the comment Malleus made, you read it and responded to it, just because you are friends with him doesn't excuse it. Here is the comment once again in case you'd forgotten it: Give it a rest. Fix the article and renominate. GA is not a God-given right. The process was correctly followed, as has been been made abundantly clear. Or if you can't fix the article then shut the fuck up. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 04:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC) Sorry, but I found his borderline racist remark above a bit too irritating, it was also off topic. For Malleus this seems to be a personal issue, I am trying to discuss the general issue. Jayron32 you are twisting the issue somewhat in my opinion. Can you explain what the benefit of summary delisting of a GA article? Do you appreciate that there can be benefits to following the process for delisting a GA article? Wikipedians are not infallible, so there is the danger of mistaken delisting. Wikipedians are not a law onto themselves, so there is the question of do they have the right to do a drive by delisting in the first place. Wikipedia is also a community, so there is every benefit to respecting each others work and following the correct process when delisting an article. Following the process allows concerns to be more fully highlighted, which will lead to articles being brought up to speed faster in the long run. People will also possibly feel more motivated to work on articles if they are treated properly, with respect (not as above). Editors should be afforded the opportunity to respond to concerns over an article, it's common courtesy. It is what wikipedia is supposed to be about. --ZincBelief (talk) 09:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The proof is in the diff. Such incivility is highly inappropriate. So is racism. If every GA regular acted like that, GA would be no different from the endless nitpicking and incivility that is FAC. Then I would leave Wikipedia, because there would be no reason to write quality articles. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

ZincBelief, the reason why "quick-delist", "fast-delist", "bold-delist" (or anything that shares similar name) is because GA started in October 2005 without detail discussions. They weren't even called GA at that time. They were referred to as "Half-decent articles". At that time, anyone who thinks the article is good enough can make it a GA. No discussion, no reviews, no criteria to measure against. Until March 2006, about 800 articles were promoted to GA. And until the GA criteria is firmly established, more articles were promoted to GA (I don't have the figure of number of articles promoted this way.) These articles were sometimes referred to as "fallen through the cracks" because their quality could be good, bad, or somewhere in between. In the Ireland article, I have not only found "citation needed" tags, but an awful lot of sections that have very little sections (including but not limited to History, Culture, and Economy). Judging from here, others agree with Malleus' delist. The reason why Malleus chose those words is probably (I'm only guessing, can't speak on his behalf) he didn't expect to be attacked this brutally while doing Sweeps, which is why I suggested him to read this page because some of us have been attacked verbally for an article they like/created/edited. Zinc, you should read that page too, especially the portion written by LaraLove. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 13:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ohana again I am bemused by your reply, it really hasn't much to do with the RFC here. I don't see anything brutal in the questions posed to Malleus, queries on why due process was not followed per Delisting guidelines and per Sweep guidelines are proper. This RFC has been created to get a better answer to those.--ZincBelief (talk) 13:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

←I am disappointed with myself for wasting my time in trying to have a rational discussion with ZincBelief. That is my final word on this ludicrous debacle. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To introduce another piece of evidence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Good_articles/Project_quality_task_force/Sweeps#Process clearly states that we should follow the guidelines of the GA delisting process. There is again this muddying of process, guidelines and instructions and probably criteria as well. However, the GA Sweep guidelines seem to agree with me, we should not ignore point 4, we should follow it. It goes on to say give editors a chance to respond. A laudable statement, and one which must be adhered to in a community.--ZincBelief (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with previous comments that ZincBelief's language is inappropriate, I think ZincBelief is right about the core issue - I do not think Ireland should have been summarily delisted, because it looks like there's a reasonable chance that a determined editor could get it up to current GA standard in a week, i.e. WP:SNOW does not apply in this case. My judgement may be fallible on that point, but the only way to prove it wrong would be to produce a full GAR, i.e. to follow the process. I suggest Malleus Fatuorum should undo the delisting and then produce a proper GAR. -- Philcha (talk) 11:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There is actually a community GAR already in process, at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Ireland/1. If everyone who has commented here would like to look at the article and comment at the GAR, it would be welcomed. Dana boomer (talk) 11:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed a community GAR, however my point is a general one, albeit produced by a specific example. I would like to here opinions on whether it is ok to ignore point 4 of the instructions. I contend that it not, for a variety of reasons given here already. I just don't think it is appropriate to refuse to allow other editors a chance of dealing with the perceived issues within any article. I apologise if repeating the abusive language used when previously trying to discuss this point offends anyone, but it offends me as well.--ZincBelief (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am dissapointed in the tone of this entire RFC. This has devolved into an RFC on Malleus's behavior by proxy, or on the status of a single, specific article (the Ireland article) by proxy. The system is sound, it works as it is. Any further discussion should probably happen at the article talk pages or at the GAR discussion board as appropriate. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I think people should be allowed to comment on the general issue in hand here. There is no reason to restrict it to one article. This is a question about the process of delisting any good article.--ZincBelief (talk) 12:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I want that discussion to happen too. Read the above. 90% of the discussion is about the Ireland article or about Malleus. I will start an arbitrary break to refocus us... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayron32, I do not think that this (your words) "has devolved into an RFC on Malleus's behavior by proxy, or on the status of a single, specific article":

• Any process problem is bound to appear first as one or two specific cases. I agree with ZincBelief that the delisting of Ireland is an instance of a general point, that the delisting procedure should be followed unless it's clear beyond reasonable doubt that the artcile cannot be brought up to current GA standard in a "reasonable time", for which the established convention is a week. Ireland does not meet the "beyond reasonable doubt" criterion. In fact it would be very hard to show that an article did meet the "beyond reasonable doubt" criterion, e.g. Spider started with far fewer citations and passed its GAR.
• Earlier in this discussion Geometry guy wrote that individual GAR should provide "an opportunity to fix problems," and I agree - GA and FA criteria are getting stricter all the time, and there will be an increasing need to upgraded articles to the latest current standard without provoking outrage. -- Philcha (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
• I've done some checking, and it's clear that Malleus Fatuorum is a very good and highly-respected editor - he (?) was just unlucky enough to be involved in the case that raised the issue. -- Philcha (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Philcha, with everything you have said 100%. Teh question is not whether or not under reasonable circumstances we should not allow almost every article to go through the standard process, the question is whether we should force literally every article to go through the process. The Ireland example aside, one could easily envisage a situation where no reasonable person would expect an article to make GA standard in one week. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is wrong with following the process in place, what disaster will happen if we follow the process in place? If an article isn't going to meet GA standard it will be delisted to everyone's satisfaction when we follow due process. If we do not follow due process we simply create hot tempers.--ZincBelief (talk) 13:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

ZincBelief has summed up the discussion admirably.

Jayron32, can you please describe "a situation where no reasonable person would expect an article to make GA standard in one week". -- Philcha (talk) 13:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Let's say this article is added to the GA list and no one notices for a week or so. Is there any compelling reason to believe that the article should remain on the list for an additional week, given that the level of work it needs means it has absolutely no chance of meeting the GA criteria in that time frame? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice example , Jayron32. I'd justify summary delisting in this case by the non-appearance of a GA review on the Talk page, i.e. the promotion hadn't followed the correct procedure, which is designed to produce objective review. It's interesting that Ireland was GA-listed on 15 Apr 2006, but the Talk archive for that period shows no GA review - what was the prodecure then? -- Philcha (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone on that day just change from GAnom to GA[2] without explanation OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems to have been procedure during those times--ZincBelief (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Then that means we can categorize that as an GA that got listed without going through GAN, so it was improperly listed. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice try Ohana, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations&diff=prev&oldid=48602904 I'm sure you're aware already that this was a GA listed through the proper process, it should be delisted through the proper process.--ZincBelief (talk) 19:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To respond to Philcha's comment above, since you can justify summary delisting in atleast this one case, then, as you note at the bottom of this discussion, wouldn;t that negate the need for starting a full GAR discussion for every delisting? I am not saying that it should be done often, but the topic of this RFC is specifically if it is ever OK to short circuit the GAR process. It clearly is, in limited cases. That is all I am saying. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Break to refocus discussion

The above discussion does not appear mostly relevent to the RFC at hand. Problems with personal behavior should be directed to WP:WQA or other dispute resolution forums. Problems with specific articles should be addressed on that specific article's talk page or at the community GAR board, where appropriate. Let's bring this back to the focus of the RFC here: Is it ever appropriate, in any situation, no matter how bizare, to remove a GA from the list, or must every GA on the list go through an extensive review process before it is removed? You know where I and ZincBelief stand on the issue, it would be nice to hear how others feel about this.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jayron; the system is sound, and summary delistings should not be forbidden. GAR is available as a recourse, and process for process's sake is bad. I don't really see an issue here. Mike Christie (talk) 12:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that individual delistings without prior notification are generally unacceptable. They should be only be done when the article meets the quick-fail criteria or was inappropriately listed (such as being listed without going through GAN). --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that ZincBelief's intemperate language has obscured the issue, because there are general issues:

• While I agree in principle with Mike Christie's "process for process's sake is bad", the point of processes is generally to avoid feuds. Delisting GAs without showing good cause will provoke feuds, as the heated discussion above exemplifies.
• The "beyond reasonable" criterion that I suggested above for summary delisting is very hard to satisfy, as the exmaple I quoted shows.
• I'd prefer to see summary delisting forbidden. There are cases where summary action is necessary, e.g. in relation to WP:BLP, but GA status is not important enough to warrant such controversial action.

PS I came second in an edit conflict with J.L.W.S. The Special One, but don't mind at all because I agree 100% with J.L.W.S. The Special One's comment. -- Philcha (talk) 13:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)JLWS, I like your criteria for not using the process. Inappropriate listings or meeting the quick fail criteria should be reasons for boldly delisting an article without prior notification or a full community GAR. I disagree with following process simply to follow process. If it is the case that an article has only a few minor issues and could be brought to GA status with a minimal amount of work, then full procedure should be followed. However, if it appears that the article has been completely abandoned by it's editors, and has cleanup banners or is significantly lacking in refs, and has other significant problems, then there is no reason to follow the procedure when the end result will 99.9% of the time be the same anyway. If an editor has a problem with a bold delisting, they can easily take it to a community GAR or renominate the article at GAN, after fixing the problems. Dana boomer (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm lucky and able to found some "fallen through the cracks" articles on the spot. Take a look at Wine fault and Pasta. We can't just send every single GA that requires delisting to go through GAR first. This will backlog and overload GAR. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 13:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Not that lucky. Both lack refs, but: Wine fault is mainly about chemistry, and I'll bet there are plenty of WP:RS that serious amateur wine-makers can cite; although I'm no cook, I could almost fix Pasta myself from cookery books and web sites, if I weren't so busy on paleontology / biology articles. both need revised leads, but that's 15-30 minutes' work per article once the main content is right.

If GAR is in danger of overload, the correct answer is to recruit more resources, not to resort to arbitrary delisting. -- Philcha (talk) 13:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the comments by OhanaUnited and Philcha confuse individual reassessments with community reassessments. Requiring community reassessments for every delisting would obviously drain reviewer resources, but this is not what is proposed. The discussion deals with individual reassessments. Should we require that all individual reassessments give contributors reasonable time to address the issues? Doing so would not strain reviewer resources. All the reviewer has to do is check back a week later to determine whether the issues have been addressed and whether the article should retain GA status. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't confusing individual reassessments with community reassessments. I interpreted OhanaUnited's comment as a complaint that requiring the individual GAR procdure to be followed in almost every case would cause overload, since it's roughly equivalent to a new GA review, and there's always a GA review backlog. -- Philcha (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I would counter Philca's arguement above, where he says "GA status is not important enough to warrant such controversial action." with the idea that if GA status is not that important, why do we need to send through the formal GAR process every article, even those that everyone agrees will not be fixed. Seriously. The entire problem is that, if the article can be fixed, it should be fixed, and whether or not there's a little green plus on the talk page is moot. There is nothing in the green plus that is so vital that if an article spends a few days without it, major doom will befall the project. If the green plus is removed, then fix the article, and renominate it at GAN. Or if it was removed but did not deserve to be, start a community GAR. To quote Philca again, "GA status is not important enough to warrant" this level of mindless bureaucracy! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"why do we need to send through the formal GAR process every article?" - to avoid feuds.

"even those that everyone agrees will not be fixed" - by what criteria would you judge this?

As for "mindless bureaucracy", it appears that "mindless bureaucracy" is OK when it annoys editors but not when it gives them a break. -- Philcha (talk) 14:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)