User talk:Wikidemon

xrxty

Check the contributions list of Special:Contributions/72.192.216.42

File:Pixels.jpeg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Pixels.jpeg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 06:19, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Belated thanks

Many thanks for the barnstar for working out why your talk page wasn't archiving - I've been on wikibreak for a while, hence the delay in responding. (If only I got a barnstar every time I added one letter to a page!) Happy New Year and warmest regards, Bencherlite^Talk 09:20, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (File:Logo rockyou.gif)

You've uploaded File:Logo rockyou.gif, and indicated that it's used under Wikipedia's rules for non-free images. However, it's not presently used in any articles. Wikipedia policy requires that non-free images be either used or deleted, so if this image isn't used in an article in the next week, it will be deleted.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 22:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (File:Mobilefourstar.gif)

You've uploaded File:Mobilefourstar.gif, and indicated that it's used under Wikipedia's rules for non-free images. However, it's not presently used in any articles. Wikipedia policy requires that non-free images be either used or deleted, so if this image isn't used in an article in the next week, it will be deleted.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 10:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (File:Rocketdog.gif)

You've uploaded File:Rocketdog.gif, and indicated that it's used under Wikipedia's rules for non-free images. However, it's not presently used in any articles. Wikipedia policy requires that non-free images be either used or deleted, so if this image isn't used in an article in the next week, it will be deleted.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 13:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

January 2009

Please refrain from making personal attacks on other editors. This behavior is contrary to wp:civil. Thank you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That's nonsense. What the heck are you talking about? I am fine - others are continuing to make personal attacks on me. Wikidemon (talk) 20:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

request for suggestions

here when you have some time (concerns a proposal to Verifiability policy) Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

Might I suggest going for a Did You Know for Air and Simple Gifts. A very interesting article. Grsz¹¹ 18:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Carlo Mattogno

The addition: «The fallacies of Mattogno's arguments regarding archaeological research and logistical issues of Belzec extermination camp are addressed in a 2006 article headed Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research on the blog Holocaust Controversies, which contains further articles addressing Mattogno's poor research and dishonesty. Mattogno has recently responded to this article.» was removed. Why? If due to violation of Wiki guidelines, please specify.Cortagravatas (talk) 20:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC) "Links to blogs and personal web pages (including fansites)" - I see. Question answered.Cortagravatas (talk) 20:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Jan. 2009

Making false accusations against other editors is inappropriate. As you can see from the article's edit history I have only made 2 edits in the last I don't know how long, so that's clearly not edit warring. Because of your harassment and incivility I have asked you repeatedly not to post on my talk page, and I'd like to take this opportunity to do so again. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that is off the wall. You are an experienced editor, and you have been disrupting that article and making allegations of bad faith against me for some time now, so I must assume you know what you are doing when you revert my edits twice in quick succession. I left a caution on your talk page as a notice and a courtesy rather than reporting you immediately to administrators, which is the right thing to do. I never promised that I would not post on your talk page, and you do not own your talk page - if you edit war, you may get notices. As I said before I will not post unnecessarily on your talk page, but I cannot abide your strange demand that I not leave legitimate cautions there. Wikidemon (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Air and Simple Gifts

On January 22, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Air and Simple Gifts, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Dravecky (talk) 13:40, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Dominant culture

Sorry for editing right on top of you. I saw this article pop up on my watch list and I did some editing, but I hope I didn't cause a bunch of frustrating edit conflicts.

I think mentioning assimilation and a section on the advantages and disadvantages (if you will) of having a dominant culture would be good. For example there are arguments in favor of one language to smooth communications, business etc and to limit misunderstandings and complexities. I suppose there is overlap with the multiculturalism and multicultural articles which I haven't looked at. Also, are you going to organize it nation by nation or keep it general? For example once it's internationalized discussing the dominant culture in various countries (Saudi Arabia and India for example) or even regions of nations (the dominant culture in the deep south is quite different from San Francisco and New York City) might be interesting. I guess it's a pretty wide open topic. I think it's interesting. Good job creating it. I actually have culture gap on my article to do list. Also there are political dimensions where a Democracy passes laws by majority, authoritarians impose cultural dominance and communist and socialist societies have often tried to subvert cultural expression like religion all together. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No prob... It's a really big subject that's probably beyond my ability and knowledge to do a great job with. I'm aware of but not terribly familiar with it, and there's lots of literature. 500k+ google hits for the term itself.[1] My exposure has been with groups in the US who describe their own efforts to come to grips with being party to two or more cultures simultaneously. Some of the articles I started to read in order to research this made a distinction between assimilation versus acculturation or opposition. Others made a distinction between multicultural contemporary societies such as America and modern Europe, where cultural domination becomes an issue, and monolithic historical societies like Japan, where there is only one culture to begin with (although I doubt that any society is truly monolithic like that). I suspect the issue comes up everywhere in the world, although I don't know whether this particular way of looking at it is a new or an old thing, or is international or just local to America. Wikidemon (talk) 21:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed there's the academic interest with all the theorizing and semantic minutae that entails, and the mainstream significance as the issues of cultural dominance are dealt with in the real world. I prefer clarity and practicality of the real world issues rather than the ivory tower debates, a position that isn't always appreciated by other Wikipedians :) I had a look at the multiculralism article and it's a nightmare of all kinds of unsupported and unbalanced assertions. The idea of Europe or even Japan as "monoloithic" is an oversimplification and is an academic construct (as you noted). Certainly some cultures are more diverse than others, and there are difference types of diversity (religious, ethnic, economic, cultural, linguistic). Are you okay with a country by country discussion? Otherwise I suppose we can try to keep it general and use examples, but I think that may be more difficult. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. I think a country by country discussion is best for now while the article is new, and we'll see if something coalesces out of that. If we try for a global perspective from the start that might be elusive, and promise to the reader more than the article really delivers. Wikidemon (talk) 08:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

vinegar, or reliable sources?

• Hi Wikidemon. You're gaming procedural rules as a means of throwing over WP:RS. I may have a little vinegar in my comments; you have censorship in your actions. Good luck with that. :-) Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 02:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

For goodness sake. Wikidemon (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess I've expressed myself; I'll leave you alone now. :-) So last posting here. Please do read WT:DTTR in your spare time, though; this "warning" crap is the precise equivalent of a template. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)}

It was a personalized notice. Rather than responding that it is crap you might want to consider the substance of my caution to you regarding civility, personal attacks, and edit warring, which as a regular you must know can lead to administrative intervention. Wikidemon (talk) 03:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Please don't remove comments from talk pages

I know these things have a tendency to get heated, but removing or refactoring the comments of others remains something of a no-no. Ray (talk) 02:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing. You cannot decide these things as a one person police force. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually I can. Inappropriate comments are deleted all the time from talk pages, and there's zero justification for that one. It's a cut and paste of a pointless but provocative accusation of Wikigaming the editor already left on my talk page, had nothing to do with improving the guideline, and was a simple personal attack on me. There is no sense in duplicating these kinds of things "for the record" in the middle of a consensus discussion. Removing it is better than alternatives, all of which I considered and dismissed: ignoring the personal attack, getting into accusations and counter-accusations (which tends to shut down discussion), or reporting on AN/I (which I think is premature and will be unnecessary if the editor can be persuaded to remain civil). Wikidemon (talk) 03:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Typo redirect Hu Xiao Mei,

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Hu Xiao Mei,, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Hu Xiao Mei, is a redirect page resulting from an implausible typo (CSD R3).

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Hu Xiao Mei,, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 00:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

cool down

• You don't know me. I was never gonna 3RR, never gonna insult your ancestry, etc. I was just showing the degree to which I believe your position is a very harmful error, representing a very serious threat to the integrity of the encyclopedia.
• Rmv'ing it won't do any good. I'm probably gonna go RfA'ing in a month or so; folks will dig it up anyhow. Might as well leave it there.
• Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 03:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oi, what is Hu Xiao Mei an "improbable typo" of? Looks like good pinyin to me... oh, OK, no prob Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 03:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I think it was the comma at the end of the name. It's actually quite probable if you're clumsy.... Wikidemon (talk) 03:36, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama

Could you direct me to the living person "Large Family" please. I have never heard of this person. Landon1980 (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The comment in no way insults, the Obama's, African American's, and not even large families. This is ridiculous, the same little group of article owners make it impossible for anyone to comment unless they praise Obama. Landon1980 (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be on some kind of polemical mission here. The comment you and the IP are inserting accuses George Obama, half brother to the President, of being a "criminal", and you're edit warring on a pages that is on probation (not to mention removing a warning from another editor's talk page) to try to prove that point - when there's no chance of the material getting into the article. You need to take a step back if you want to avoid being blocked for disruption. Please direct your efforts on productive work likely to improve the encyclopedia. Wikidemon (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No, the comment does not accuse Obama of being a criminal. I'll not revert anyone any more, but to say that comment is an insult is very far fetched. Landon1980 (talk) 20:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The comment says that in such a large family one half-brother being a criminal is not significant of the article. Landon1980 (talk) 20:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. That's why it is inappropriate. It could be phrased in a way that does not assume that the allegation is true. Wikidemon (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You would not have removed the comment under any other circumstances, you did it in pure spite of me. If the small group of you are going to control that article you need a thicker skin. Try assuming good-faith from time to time. It is only the talk page, making a reference to large families does not violate BLP and you know that. Landon1980 (talk) 20:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a cut and paste? You accused another editor of exactly the same thing. At last count at least three different editors removed the comment on the same basis and you seem to have violated WP:3RR to restore it. Why should I spite you? I have no interaction with you that I'm aware of. The comment does accuse a non-notable living person of being a criminal. It's not the biggest BLP vio in the world but it is unproductive, and it's in a now-closed conversation on a subject that is very unlikely to lead to a change to the article. I see you're already on notice of article probation, and there's an AN/I report right now. BLP, and article probation, apply to article talk pages as well. Probably best to take a deep breath and, as I said, concentrate on improving the encyclopedia rather than drama.Wikidemon (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I said you couldn't stand me based on your comments in the past calling me a "problematic- editor," and some other comments you made. Do you not remember the long and drawn out thread on the Obama talk page about his race? So you are telling me if you saw that comment you would remove it? Calling someone arrested over drug possession charges a criminal is not a BLP violation, and you know that. Landon1980 (talk) 20:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember that but I'll assume it's correct. But Wikipedia is a collaborative user-generated encyclopedia, not a WP:BATTLEGROUND. I deal with disruption all the time and don't carry any grudges, but if this new flare-up is any indication there is indeed something problematic going on. Wikidemon (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You were also deleting my comments in the past, an admin had to start the thread for me because of you and two other editors. There is no point in discussing this further. Yes, I am aware of the article probation. Also, I am aware of WP:3RR, so if you feel I need blocked to prevent disruption voice your opinion on the thread at ANI. Landon1980 (talk) 20:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Did it ever occur to you that if I truly was "edit-warring to restore blatant BLP violations" I would have been blocked? Calling someone a criminal when it can be reliably sourced is not a violation of any policy. Your acting as if that comment was in the article itself, it was on the talk page for crying out loud. The only admin that got involved called the comment a "borderline-offensive comment" wikipedia is not censored. From what I've seen you have a bad habit of tampering with other's comments, and I'm betting I'm not the first to tell you that. When you were removing my comments in the past an admin had to step in to get you to quit, had to start the thread for me because of you. You would delete everything I posted, which was in good faith and did not contain any personal attacks, etc. Landon1980 (talk) 15:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That makes no sense at all. You are in no position to complain about my edits, which are just fine. I'm not going to debate you and I have no interest in continuing this discusion. I've cautioned you. You were wrong to do it. This isn't a close case. Don't do it again or you will likely be blocked.Wikidemon (talk) 16:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Who do you think you are, you are not the community or an admin. Your block threats are ludicrous, just don't worry about what I do. You have no business threatening me over something I stopped doing hours ago. Remember, you are not an administrator, as such you threatening blocks really is pointless. Landon1980 (talk) 17:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss this anymore. I've done my best to warn you. The rest is up to you.Wikidemon (talk) 17:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You are correct there is no point in discussing this. I don't want or need your advice. I have a clean block log, and if I were as disruptive/problematic as you say I am I would have a block log a mile long. The only thing I did wrong was edit-war, I should have reported you and provided diffs of your history of tampering with other editor's comments. You would even remove certain parts of my comments, rearrange them and everything. It took two different admins stepping in before you would knock it off. I stopped reverting that comment a long time ago, so your threats are getting closer and closer to personal attacks. This is your talk page, so go ahead and get the last word in. I'll not waste my time on this any more than I already have. However, if/when I see you deleting good-faith comments, rewording them, etc. I will deal with it appropriately. Landon1980 (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

For goodness sake, you were the problem in both instances, not me or the other editors. Your reading of what happened in both instances is seriously off. You stand to be blocked if you behave that way. Ignore that at your own peril. Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Until you are an admin I will take your threats as what they are, empty threats. I stopped reverting that comment a long time ago. Your threats are personal attacks. Let's just drop this. You understand you need the tools to block other editors don't you? If I remember correctly, in the earlier instance mentioned your behavior along with two other editors was frowned upon on the ANI thread. An admin started the thread for me and you all were told to leave it alone. Landon1980 (talk) 18:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No personal attack, just a caution against disruptive editing. Turning that into a complaint about me is pretty far-fetched. Occasionally there are some misguided people at AN/I who have a knee-jerk reaction against refactoring talk pages, without looking into exactly what happened. But the Obama page requires a lot of policing and a lot of refactoring. I've just found the old issue to which you were referring - you were on the Obama talk page calling people racist for saying Obama is African-American, or something like that, then went to Grz's editor review page Wikipedia:Editor review/Grsz11 to accuse him of incivility. I agreed that Grz ought to keep his cool even in the face of that kind of thing, even though you were off base there on the talk page. Anyway, I really don't carry grudges or try to remember any run-ins with an editor from one issue to the next - best to treat every new day as a fresh start for all.Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Henry Siegman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Siegman

Yup - I think the CAMERA issue should be consolidated and discussed. Not sure where it's appropriate, though - perhaps WP:NPOV or WP:BLP or WP:COATRACK - the extreme bias and background of the group seems to indicate that it could justifiably be an issue in any/all of the areas. Hrm - how did you manage to find the other places it's used as a source? Wikinoob... GrizzledOldMan (talk) 10:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Eep - I thought I had problems with ignorant/abusive/single-digit-IQ editors... After skimming through this page - I've had it easy... GrizzledOldMan (talk) 12:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It's been pretty rough...given that these editors make all manner of accusations of bad faith and that it's flaring up again, the most behavior (as opposed to joking about their obvious lack of comprehension of Wikipedia policies) is in order. If you're concerned that a particular source is being misused, or that a single coatrack is inserted into a bunch of articles you can type the article title or URL of the source into the "search" bar on the left of the page, or go to Special:Search for a more refined search. There is also a special feature for checking external links to different places, so if you think someone is spamming links to a commercial business or partisan organization you can check them. Google is also useful for searching Wikipedia. And "what links here" if you suspect spam Wikilinks. Wikidemon (talk) 22:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Your problem with sourcing

Wikidemon, your accusation that I placed poorly sourced derogatory claims on Rashid Khalidi's page is extraordinary. The source I sued was the New York Times, which took three weeks to investigate and give Rashid Khalidi time to provide a source for a direct derogatory quotation, before concluding that this widely cited quotation cannot be found in nthe interview where Khalidi claimed that he found it, nor anywhere else. If a three week long, New York Times investigation of an assertion is inadequate sourcing, I cannot imagine what you would accept as adequate. Also, please stop threatening men and please stop edit warring and please stop removing sourced, significant material from articles merely because you don't like it.Historicist (talk) 20:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Removing BLP violations is not edit warring. Inserting them is. WP:RS and WP:V are not extraordinary. They are, respectively, a key Wikipedia guideline and a key Wikipedia policy. You have yet again violated WP:BLP and WP:EW by adding poorly sourced information to disparage Khalidi, something that is explained on the article page. I did not remove the portion that was well sourced; I deleted the part that was supported only by the partisan attack editorial and that was not supported at all, e.g. that the material was "apparently fabricated." That is all discussed in the article talk page. The caution is a courtesy notice in hopes that you will stop before administrative intervention is necessary, and instead discuss any proposed addition if you wish on the article talk page. Wikidemon (talk) 20:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed again.... GrizzledOldMan (talk) 22:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to clutter up the talk page of the relevant articles, I just want to understand what is going on.
These are the facts I've gathered from the NYTimes article and WP discussions:

• Khalidi presented an apparently nasty Moshe Ya'alon‎ quote in a NYTimes opinion piece
• This quote was subsequently widely cited
• The NYTimes was not able to substantiate that quote and printed a follow-up to clarify this
• There is some evidence, not reliably sourced, that CAMERA intervened to request the NY Times follow-up

Is that all there is to it, or am I missing something? Thanks. cojoco (talk) 23:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I would put it as follows:

• Khalidi writes New York Times editorial, includes quote by Moshe Ya'alon that sounds very callous towards Palestinians
• New York Times subsequently appends editor's note to the editorial saying they cannot verify the widely cited quote, that it did not appear in the piece to which it is generally attributed, that the original source has not been found, and that they should not have printed the quote
• Various pro-Israeli (for want of a better term) think tanks, blogs, editorialists, etc., gear up to attack Khalidi and accuse him of spreading a "bogus" or "fabricated" quote, among other things. They congratulate themselves over having caught the New York Times and made it do their bidding.
• Pro-Israel camp's version things, sourced to these partisan sources, added five places in Wikipedia

I'm not sure what relevance there is to CAMERA claiming they pressured the New York Times to do something, or what CAMERA has to do with this issue at all - it sounds like banging the drum for their own troops and sponsors. They live in a very different world than journalists, in which everything is a battle between the Truth and the biased liberal media, so every time they can claim a victory they do. It is only expected that they boast about their successes and not reliable at all. The Times did not report why it retracted the statement. Obviously there are politics at the Times and real humans make real decisions, but the decision on whether or not to retract an inaccurate or unsupportable statement is not likely to be made because a conservative think tank growls at them. If the quote is inaccurate anyone could have pointed it out, probably multiple people familiar with the issue. Unless someone from the Times explains, we will never know the exact course of events.Wikidemon (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I tried to dig up some information on the issue, and have come to the same conclusion. CAMERA questions the accuracy of the quotation, but I have been unable to find any neutral, 3rd party sources which pick it up. If it were indeed a fabrication, surely there would be multiple sources critical of the professionalism of anyone who used it? However, all I've found is deaphening silence. Nobody seems to be questioning the quotation except for extremist pro-Israeli groups. I think the lack of response says it all. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 23:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm perfectly willing to believe the quotation is inaccurate - it would not be the first. Even if it were inaccurate, to call it a "fabrication" or "hoax" one would have to figure out who fabricated it and where, as opposed to it being a mistake. The articles are painting Khalidi as a bad guy and intimating that he's dishonest. But I see no convincing proof, and certainly nothing up to WP:RS standards. Wikidemon (talk) 23:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I have more or less the same view on the subject. It may be a mistake. It may be a question of translation (assuming the statements weren't in English). It may very well be as inaccurate as Historicist's sources claim it to be. However, given the history of the sources he uses, I believe it's inappropriate to use them as reliable sources. If it were picked up and investigated by neutral, 3rd parties - then fine... but it hasn't. Deaphening silence from the journalist community on the subject. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 00:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

FYI - you might want to correct the link here to this. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 00:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Alas, the edit war continues to exact its bloody price. Moshe Ya'alon article once again suffers from the crossfire. I tried to clean it up and remove the inflammatory wording, as opposed to a complete revert. See how long it lasts.... Sorry for cluttering up your talk page, but Historicist's butchery of the English language was just so painful, that I had to go and vent my frustration somewhere. Apologies. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 07:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

apologies

Apologies for plagiarism here. It was a nice summary and I nicked it. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 05:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

And again...

And again... you really should be getting royalties...

FYI, you might want to look at this and this edit. Note the incomplete sentence in the first? *sigh* Really, do I need to type out my thoughts? In the interest of civility guidelines, I'll just gag myself. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 09:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Historicist problems

I noticed your comments on WP:AN/I regarding Historicist (talk · contribs). I suggest that you raise this at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement and cite the arbitration sanctions imposed in WP:ARBPIA. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)