Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/A Man In Black/Workshop

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

AMiB is unblocked early to work on this case

1) Please unblock AMiB early with the following conditions:

He have no contact with Ikip off of this case.

He avoid the ARS for the duration of this case.

He not use his admin tools in any capacity till the close of the case.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I supported this on our mailing list, but in any event it has become moot, as the block as expired by time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Thanks. rootology/equality 18:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

prudent, yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately unnecessary; there was no rush and any comment I might've made would have been premature. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

User_talk:A_Man_In_Black#Wikipedia:Arbitration.2FRequests.2FCase.2FA_Man_In_Black. [[Sam Korn]] ^(smoddy) 18:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

[Edit conflict with Sam.] As the case clerk, I've been asked over clerks-l to look into unblocking AMiB—and have initiated discussion with him regarding it. If a satisfactory agreement can be reached on this note, a full motion to unblock may be unnecessary. AGK 18:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Private evidence, nature but not specifics

2) In regards to the private evidence, since this is live now, can we please get an extremely swift clarification of whether:

The full details can be posted?

The specific policy violation in question can be posted?

The specific end result of those policy violations can be posted (but without private info/links to private info)?

Comment by Arbitrators:

1) No, 2) socking, 3) No. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

It's going to really quickly swell up into a fat elephant, otherwise. I mailed the AC earlier about this but hadn't heard back. rootology/equality 20:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Ikip added as a party

3) Ikip (talk · contribs) is added as a named party to the case.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It would likely make sense to add him, yes, since the main conflict centers around those two. Wizardman 21:57, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Note that Ikip is on Wikibreak (using the enforcer tool). I could still add though Ikip won't be able to respond to evidence. Wizardman 19:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I don't think this is in need of much justification. The whole case basically revolves revolves around the conflict between AMIB and Ikip on ARS related matters. His name is mentioned a thousand times on /Evidence even when my stuff is excluded, and in terms of disruptive behaviour there is plenty to look at. – Steel 19:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The wikibreak enforcer can be trivially bypassed by disabling a browser's javascript, though failing that he could email any responses to the arbcom or a clerk and have someone else post them here. Regardless I don't think a well timed wikibreak should allow someone to avoid criticism of their recent activities in an arb case. – Steel 20:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be a trivial matter to clear his javascript file so that he can log back in. That alone should not prevent us from adding Ikip as a party if the committee sees it fit to do so. hbdragon88 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Not sure I agree, as if the scope is on AMiB's conduct, then much of the problems antedated the interaction with Ikip. Looks like it has happened anyway. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

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Proposed temporary injunctions

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Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Rootology

Proposed principles

Editor conduct

1) Wikipedia editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Obvious, factual, long-standing, indisputable, required of all us in all situations, but especially of anyone who is an administrator or higher-level user. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support as editors should not harass others. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia editorial process

2) Wikipedia works by building consensus through the use of polite discussion—involving the wider community, if necessary—and dispute resolution, rather than through disruptive editing. Editors are each responsible for noticing when a debate is escalating into an edit war, and for helping the debate move to better approaches by discussing their differences rationally. This applies to any and all pages on Wikipedia, from Articles to Templates to Project space.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Obvious, indisputable. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support as it is not all that hard to maintain politeness. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit-warring

3) Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited; this is so even when the disputed content is clearly problematic, with very limited exceptions. The three-revert rule does not entitle users to revert a page three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Indisputable. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support as while I can think of instances where reverting someone multiple times may be necessary (such as say if someone keeps posting bogus information about someone else to harass them), in most cases the excessive reverts on articles over content is unhelpful. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Good faith and disruption

4) Inappropriate behavior driven by good intentions is still inappropriate. Editors acting in good faith may still be sanctioned when their actions are disruptive.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Indisputable. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support as many people believe what they are doing is right, but can still be wrong nevertheless. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Recidivism

5) Users who have been sanctioned for improper conduct are expected to avoid repeating it should they continue to participate in the project. Failure to do so may lead to the imposition of increasingly severe sanctions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Especially indisputable. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

As the articulation of an important principle, something is be missing. There is sense in which recidivist conduct represents both a missed opportunity and a failure of informal and formal dispute resolution systems -- not in specific incidents, but also more generally across the broad spectrum of collaborative editors. In my view, some acknowledgment of this implicit optimism needs to be encompassed within the express ambit of this restatement. --Tenmei (talk) 03:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Support as that is usually how it works here, i.e. increased sanctions for repeated behavior. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Expectations of administrators

6) Administrators are trusted members of the community. They are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. Administrators are expected to follow Wikipedia policies and to perform their duties to the best of their abilities. Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect. However, sustained poor judgment or multiple violations of policy (in the use of Administrator tools, or otherwise) may result in the removal of administrator status. Administrators are also expected to learn from experience and from justified criticisms of their actions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Standard. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

From the Sarah Palin RFAR. Long-standing and factual; only modification of the successful finding there is the addition of "(in the use of Administrator tools, or otherwise)". We admins, as models of decorum and behavior, have to set not just the model but the expectation of how our peers will act. If we routinely flaunt the non-admin-tool-use policy, we're not fit to handle the big stuff. We need to make active efforts to always behave as if we're on a never-ending RFA. We have to set the example. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is especially true in this case. AMIB may not violate 3RR on every edit war, but blocking the opposing party when s/he engaged in the dispute by edit warring is not a good role model behaviour. MythSearcher^talk 05:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Support, while administrators are humans as are all non-bot editors, I expect a bit better from them as they are more experienced. For example, administrators who say threaten opponents from even before they became administrators with blocks for which they have a history should not be administrators. And in any event, we should be able to look to administrators as leaders. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Application and enforcement of policy must be even for any users

7.1) The technical ranks of Administrator, or higher, are never intended to confer any additional leeway, nor protection vs. valid sanctions for violations of policy, guidelines, or behavioral/social norms on Wikipedia. In other words, if two users both with five years of experience each performed comparable actions out of policy, if one is blocked 24 hours, they both should be blocked 24 hours. Administrators are never "more special" than non-Administrators in the adherence of policy. The same exact principles, rules, policies, guidelines, and expectations apply to all editors of Wikipedia at all times, with no exemptions, regardless of any technical, social, or perceived rank they enjoy. For example, any user with the technical or social ranks of "Steward", "Arbitration Committee Member", or "Founder" violating our policies on edit warring may be blocked or restricted from the editing of Wikipedia, no different than if such an editor were a simple "Editor". Admins should not have any special dispensation that every other non-admin would not enjoy. See also, Wikipedia:No vested contributors.

7.2) The technical ranks of Administrator, or higher, are never intended to confer any additional leeway, nor protection vs. valid sanctions for violations of policy, guidelines, or behavioral/social norms on Wikipedia. In other words, if two users both with five years of experience each performed comparable actions out of policy, if one is blocked 24 hours, they both should be blocked 24 hours. Administrators are never "more special" than non-Administrators in the adherence of policy. The same exact principles, rules, policies, guidelines, and expectations apply to all editors of Wikipedia at all times, with no exemptions, regardless of any technical, social, or perceived rank they enjoy. See also, Wikipedia:No vested contributors.

7.3) The technical ranks of Administrator, or higher, are never intended to confer any additional leeway, nor protection vs. valid sanctions for violations of policy, guidelines, or behavioral/social norms on Wikipedia. Administrators are never "more special" than non-Administrators in the adherence of policy. The same exact principles, rules, policies, guidelines, and expectations apply to all editors of Wikipedia at all times, with no exemptions, regardless of any technical, social, or perceived rank they enjoy. See also, Wikipedia:No vested contributors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

7.3 is reasonable (although it could use some copyediting, and might be better merged into the principle on the expected conduct of administrators). 7.1 and 7.2 are not, since blocks are applied on a case by case basis regardless of administrative status; two users may receive different-length blocks for the same action on the basis of past history, recidivism, and so forth even if both have edited Wikipedia for the same length of time. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Couple of wording versions. Obvious, long-overdue to be said outright, and endorsed by the Arbitration Committee in a finalized Proposed Decision. Time to burn down the farm for the good of the crops. None of us, from the new IP that never edited before, up to Jimbo, are exempt from the rules. We all serve at each other's pleasure, and it's high time we stopped lollygagging about fair play in our systems. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

The community as a whole is discussing this, at Wikipedia talk:Equality. An end-run around that discussion is not desirable. Uncle G (talk) 23:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about winning

8) The purpose of Wikipedia is to collaborate and build a free encyclopedia. Users often become entrenched in conflicts, to the point where "winning" the conflict becomes a driving focus. This is patently unhelpful to the project, and persisting in such efforts in an ongoing manner is unacceptable. See also, WP:WINNER.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Far enough, although I dislike see-also links to essays. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Obvious. rootology/equality 17:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd support this. This is the sort of thing that would have more-productively been first introduced on my talk page than an RFAr. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 08:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Burden of evidence is always on the blocker

9) Should an administrator block any other user, the burden of evidence and justification under policy is at all times on the blocking admin, and a valid reason for the block must be presented either in the block log, or if and when the block is challenged. A block without a valid policy justification, or one placed by an involved administrator, may be overturned one time by any other uninvolved admin immediately if the unblocking administrator deems it required. A block without policy-supported justification, or by an involved administrator, does not require the approval or feedback of the blocking administrator to overturn. This would never be construed as nor considered a Wheel War action on that first overturning. Any and all users with access to the technical ability to block are bound by this, with the exemption of blocks performed by the development staff, such as Brion Vibber and those working under him; anything labeled an official Arbitration Committee action; or any action cited as an WP:OFFICE action by a Wikimedia Foundation employee.

9.1) Should an administrator block any other user, the burden of evidence and justification under policy is at all times on the blocking admin, and a valid reason for the block must be presented either in the block log, or if and when the block is challenged. A block without a valid policy justification, or one placed by an involved administrator, may be overturned one time by any other uninvolved admin immediately if the unblocking administrator deems it required. A block without policy-supported justification, or by an involved administrator, does not require the approval or feedback of the blocking administrator to overturn. This would never be construed as nor considered a Wheel War action on that first overturning. Any and all users with access to the technical ability to block are bound by this, with the exemption of blocks performed by the development staff, such as Brion Vibber and those working under him; anything labeled an official Arbitration Committee action; any action affirmed as Arbitration enforcement, or any action cited as an WP:OFFICE action by a Wikimedia Foundation employee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Needs some changes to account for, e.g. arbitration enforcement actions, and so forth. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

9.1 isn't really any better, in my view. I will not support anything that rescinds the requirements for overturning enforcement actions. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 20:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That looks broadly acceptable, though I'll have to consider some of the potential ramifications further. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 21:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Directly related to AMiB's block of Ikip[1], and what I believe is the sound principle and standard by which we can block any editor, be they an IP user, an editor, an admin, or even Jimmy and a clear review of undoing bad blocks, which seems to be a running theme in RFAR this week. Short version: anyone uninvolved can undo an out of policy, bad, or bogus block one time and is exempt from repercussion, as long as 1) you don't undo a block made by Devs to protect WP for technical reasons which hasn't been done in years; 2) don't undo anything cited in the block log as "Per the AC"; 3) you don't under an action by Cary or Godwin cited as Office. All the rest of us have to play by the same rulebook, no matter who we are. That includes every admin, CU, individual Arb, and Jimmy. rootology/equality 18:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Kirill: Is 9.1 better? I tried to close about every reasonable loophole on the first pass. rootology/equality 20:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Kirill: then look at this edit. That just flat exempts the AE process along with official AC action, while leaving individual Arb actions (which aren't special) as normal admin actions. That covers the AC completely. rootology/equality 20:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Involved administrators

10) In several recent instances, administrators involved in disputes have taken sysop actions relating to that dispute and then referred the actions typically to either the administrators' noticeboard or the incidents noticeboard for endorsement or review. This does not comply with policy. In such circumstances, the 'involved' administrator should not take the action but should instead report the issue to the noticeboard, perhaps with a suggestion for appropriate action, to be dealt with by an uninvolved administrator. In limited circumstances, such as blatant vandalism or bad-faith harassment, an involved administrator may act, but such exceptions are likely to be rare.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Taken whole from the Macedonia 2 RFAR underway, on this version, where it is passing 10-0 at this moment. I believe this reflects the current widely accepted standard of "involved admins". rootology/equality 13:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Classification as involved administrators

11) If an Administrator has in recent memory been in, but not limited to, dispute resolution; arbitration; what can be termed reasonably as "heated debate" or "hostile debate" about one or more subjects or topic areas; threats of dispute resolution; or edit warring, any of the involved parties may not use their Administrative tools toward the other party, except to facilitate the removal of WP:BLP or WP:COPYVIO violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Time that we began to nail down and defined "involved status" for ourselves. rootology/equality 21:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

This is going to lead to exactly the same fishing expeditions we saw at WP:ANI. We have a standard for involvement supported by the community as a whole at WP:INVOLVED, so we don't need arbcom to legislate their own, new standard of involvement. (Particularly given that Rootology hasn't proposed his new, much-lower standard for involvement there.) Particularly:

"Administrators should not use their tools to advantage, or in a content dispute (or article) where they are a party (or significant editor), or where a significant conflict of interest is likely to exist."

"Admins are not considered to be 'involved' with a given user if the only interaction has been to warn that user against further actions which are against policy, community norms, or requests by users regarding their own userspace."

Some specific advantage, specific content dispute, or specific conflict of interest needs to be established. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

This is where your take and everyone else at ANI here was that you and Ikip were involved. The written policy at the INVOLVED page doesn't appear to reflect the current practice, which is much more liberal these days of "involved" status to make sure that we as admins toe our lines more finely. The facts are--you've been in constant conflict with Ikip; you and he are polar opposites on the various debates surrounding the ARS, it's content, focus and mission; you two have edit warred vs. each other. Do you disagree that this means the definition of involved? rootology/equality 21:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The written policy at INVOLVED doesn't reflect your personal opinion of what involvement should be. You've alleged that I'm in constant conflict with Ikip (without specifying what the conflict is), you've alleged that we were polar opposites on various debates surrounding ARS (when I was there to criticize canvassing efforts, particularly Ikip's canvassing efforts), and you've confused actions after April 26 with actions before April 26th. So yes, it would meet the definition of INVOLVED, if any of it were, you know, true. All you have established is a history of interaction with Ikip.

The standard you suggest is wide open to gaming, and, case in point, Ikip has vowed to game it. The bar is set high in order to better proof it against this gaming, and so that there has to be some specific locus of dispute or advantage or some long-term pattern of abuse.

On top of all of this, you reversed the block and I didn't dispute that reversal. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not to my mind confusing anything; you and Ikip have been rubbing raw against each other for quite a while. The standard of involvement you've been advocating, to my eye, is simply not what it actually is in practice. We can natter and argue about the specific metrics of involvement till the cows come home, but you have been in conflict with the ARS and with Ikip and related issues. Do you want me to actually drag out section after section of permanent links from the ARS talk archives? Because I'd be more than happy to spend an hour or two plunging through those archives, if you want me to connect-the-dots the history. Your interpretation of involvement, I'll be frank, differs from what is in fact practice today, and what the Arbcom has been acting on lately.

And yes, he has that page, which patently is not helpful, but I can put a nonsense disclaimer on my page as well, and it changes nothing. rootology/equality 21:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"Since I am a veteran, "established" editor, with over 25,000 edits, I am "special". To get me indefinitely blocked, you have to create an arbcom, an incredibly time consuming, emotional process, which means your edit history and behavior will be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb also." This is a specific threat to reverse any discussion of administrative action against him with scrutiny of the admin. This is the danger of a vague, broad standard for complete administrative recusal: that any discussion of editor conduct will be endlessly derailed by counteraccusations, lawyering, and accusations of hypocrisy.

As for the rest, if you're so absolutely sure that you have consensus for this new, unwritten policy, why haven't you written it down anywhere? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Because I never had to think especially deeply about it before this case, and it's inappropriate to go edit policy pages during an RFAR to suit the RFAR. See my reply below. rootology/equality 21:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

You've asserted that I'm involved, based on this new standard of involvement that didn't exist at the time, that was disputed by multiple editors and admins at the time in the ANI thread, and which you assert is backed by arbcom rulings made in the intervening month. You've proposed a new standard of involvement here, and not only is it a bad idea for reasons Steel and Kww and I have stated, but it also hadn't been proposed anywhere as of April 26. For violating this standard of involvement, you've variously proposed I be desysoped or topic banned.

The reason it's inappropriate to go edit policy pages during an RFAr to suit the RFAr is because you can't write a new rule, trawl through history to look for violations of that rule, then censure the violators. This is doubly silly when you haven't even proposed the rule anywhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

An example of why this proposal is fundamentally wrongheaded: by this standard, Rootology should not have reversed my administrative actions, because he was involved with me in a dispute over the definition of "involved" w.r.t. WP:INVOLVED, in the ANI thread discussing the block. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to put up a FOF and evidence if you feel I was involved in that discussion when I said I was uninvolved a minute after I posted that first reply. By your collective logic here, are you saying the AC has been getting their standards of involvement wrong the past 3-4 years? rootology/equality 03:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That'd be a really dumb way to make a disruptive point, especially since I felt you acted correctly given the whole situation. It's just illustrative of how absolutely silly this standard is.

And to answer your question, no, I don't. The arbcom has always had this wording when the administrator was acting in a way that carelessly or intentionally gave them an advantage in a specific content dispute. You have alleged no specific content dispute; you haven't even suggested how I might have gained some advantage by blocking Ikip in April. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

In my honest opinion your block on Ikip (as demonstrated from that discussion) was punitive--2 talk page posts 48+ hours earlier or so? It was game-playing--one more block on one of your principle opponents, if it sticks, makes your life in the future that much easier. The content dispute? You're one of the most known partisans on the other side of the political spectrum. You don't have to have a tug-of-war for some wording, or some content, to merit involvement. You've sparred with Ikip and the ARS folks again, and again, and again over the preceding months before the blocks. You may think it was somehow leaving you uninvolved, but it wasn't. Look again at the standards from recent cases--an admin was found "involved" for 100+ edits to an article and it's talk page. You have much more than that to various ARS pages, and to debates with Ikip on policy, and matters such as PRESERVE. You guys are two of the champions of the stupid Inclusion/Deletion Wars. For you to be called uninvolved with Ikip is for the AC to declare me Founder of Wikipedia. rootology/equality 04:14, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah. So your belief is that my involvement consists of some sort of "Inclusion/Deletion War", rather than any specific content dispute, and that it was a catspaw to damage one of my opponents in this larger battlefield. (I agreed with him and asked for his input on WP:PRESERVE and agreed with him on WP:FICT, so those aren't, you know, disputes.)

I will leave it to the arbcom to decide if the unsupported assertion that article structure is some sort of battleground and that Ikip and I are avowed warriors in this battle is sufficient evidence to constitute involvement that prevents administrative action. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 04:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This proposal defines "involved" in terms of "involved" and "been in[volved with]", which doesn't get us anywhere. – Steel 21:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

But that's the standard in practice we've been operating under. rootology/equality 21:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

- A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Here you are: [2][3][4][5][6] and that is just on recently closed cases. Read each link--even a prolonged editing history on a given topic or page makes us "involved". I don't write the standards and best practices; I just follow them. Or is the AC just making these up outside of current practice and policy? rootology/equality 21:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Every single one of them is a specific content dispute. (And, um, most of them are the same arbcom case apparently.) This is already covered in the written version of INVOLVED. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

No, that's from two cases, the Macedonia 2 and JzG RFARs just closed. Here are many more. rootology/equality 23:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

In every single case, the administrator in question was involved in a specific content dispute, be it about Macedonia, cold fusion, Scientology, whatever. Where's the specific content dispute Ikip and I have entered into proximate to April? Where's the advantage I gain? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a terrible proposal. Once an admin notices misbehaviour in any area he cares about, he will nearly always wind up "involved" under this definition, and then be unable to act. Properly gamed, this standard could paralyze giant swaths of the admin community. We already have enough trouble with inclusionists claiming that deletionists can't block them and vice versa without encoding this trivial level of encounter into an arbitration ruling which becomes a defacto policy. The current text of WP:INVOLVED defines things well enough. There is a group of admins that is in favor of installing a hair-trigger standard for involvement, but I'm not persuaded yet that there is a consensus in favor of their position. If they choose to try to change policy to match their vision, that's their right, but it isn't appropriate to do so by arbcom fiat.—Kww(talk) 21:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Why are you apparently canvassing for comments here? Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 03:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

What an incredibly unhelpful comment. Please just excuse yourself from the discussion if you can't participate positively. Also, haven't we had this EXACT discussion about making erroneous accusations of canvassing? Specifically, didn't I tell you to not accuse Kww of canvassing after he posted a single message on a single talk page. Astonishing. Protonk (talk) 05:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

He asked you, someone who is obviously sympathetic (see User_talk:Protonk/Archive_1#WP:STOP_MINDLESSLY_GAINSAYING_ANY_DELETE_RATIONALE_OFFERED_IN_AFD and User_talk:Protonk/Archive_4#3RR_and_OR) to comment here. Arbitrators should be aware of anyone who was specifically asked to comment in a thread and if they have potential biases. If I posted a note on someone's talk page who I know is likely to agree with my position saying, hey, please comment in this case, it would be entirely appropriate of someone to note that. Per the table on Wikipedia:Canvassing, "canvassing" is not merely about number of notices. If the message is biased and the audience partisan than these also fall under the inappropriate listings per that guideline. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. A single talk page message is so far from canvassing that repeated accusations of such are disruptive. We have had this discussion before. I don't want to have it again. If you accuse Kww of canvassing again after he posts a single message on an editor's talk page, I will start a discussion in AN/I to have you blocked or otherwise prevented from interacting with him. Is that clear? Protonk (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

In any event, this measure appears to be a reconsideration of a previous AN/I debate about what constituted an involved admin. It was my opinion there and remains so today that root's view of INVOLVED is not supported by the text of the policy. We are, as fabrictramp says in better words in that thread, deeply in the shit if we determine that all "inclusionist" admins are too involved to block "deletionist" editors and vice versa. Protonk (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Support as no administrator with a history of disputes with another editor is in a legitimate, unbiased opinion to threaten blocks against his/her perceived opponents. Period. Were I an administrator, I would not block anyone who seems like an opponent of mine and I cannot take seriously anyone who obviously has a history with me who would threaten me by engaging in Wikipedia:WikiBullying: "WikiBullying is the act of using the Wikipedia system and the power of editing to threaten or intimidate other editors. Doing so violates the civility principles of Wikipedia and is not tolerated...A 'no-edit' order is a message sent to a single editor or to the Wikipedia community not to edit at all or in a particular manner, or not to edit a particular page or part of a page at all or in a particular manner." Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:57, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Administrators and edit warring

12) As users that were at one point trusted by the community enough to be given sysop tools, Administrators should have an understanding of the nature of our policies on edit warring. It is unreasonable to assume that any active Administrator can misinterpret their being blocked multiple times[7] for edit warring as anything less than a rejection of the practices they are engaged in per community norms.[8]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I can't believe I need to enunciate this, but apparently I do.[9] rootology/equality 15:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The point is that RFAr is the last step on the ladder, for dealing with users who ignore or reject other means of resolution. Where's the evidence that I would be unresponsive to an RFC on this matter? Why arbcom first? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that you have four years of edit warring and blocks for the same since you became an admin, it is reasonable to infer that edit warring is how you resolve disputes. Are you defending your 12 blocks? rootology/equality 01:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

So you inferred that I would be completely unresponsive to any sort of discussion, based only on my block log. Or was there some other reason? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think you're exceptionally skilled at intercourse and discussion, which is why you are still an administrator in spite of your unfortunately rampant edit warring and constantly getting blocked for disruptive edit warring. I had no intention of filing the RFAR until I put 1+2+3 together, which was your ongoing disruption via edit warring(1), your general refusal that I observed over the course of your discussions to be fully responsive to change unless it suit your needs(2), and your misuse of the Admin tools in regards to Ikip(3). I can't fucking stand Arbitration and hate being a party to it because of bad experiences in the distant past, but it's a required evil to keep things under a semblance of control in this sometimes madhouse. I wouldn't have filed a point blank RFAR like this on someone unless I thought it was absolutely required. I truly believe based on everything I've seen of your actions, and even your refusal to say something like "I will never edit war again, it was wrong," combined with your still constant refusal to even consider you and Ikip are involved unless it meets your narrow absurdly definition of involvement that is incompatible with our highest levels of dispute resolution, makes you not fit for an adminship collectively. I applaud you big time for sticking by your perceived principles, but I don't believe they're principles for someone to be an admin, and I honestly believe if you stood for RFA today or in the next year you'd lose. I'm sorry. Consider this the equivalent of a firm RFA "oppose," and why I think this entire sad process is required here. I don't know how I can make this any more clear. I'm sorry. rootology/equality 03:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I haven't said that "I will never edit war again" because I am human and I make mistakes and I think it's more practical to have plans to deal with mistakes rather than to assume perfection. I've said it was wrong repeatedly, including immediately before you filed this RFAr. You assumed that any such discussion would not get any productive response, and you can go on and on and on about justifications for this but it just doesn't fly when this is a project built on collegial discussion and RFAr has 17 million gigantic neon signs that say "This is the last resort in dispute resolution, not the first."

It is extremely disappointing to me that the only conversation you are willing to have with me is one that involves threats of sanctions from the get-go, and I think it speaks less to me than to you. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that your "neverending RFA" standard for deadminning is another policy that is limited to you. Administrators are not and should not be expected to be popular and should not be expected to cautiously avoid controversial areas and editors, and unpopularity and controversy are almost always the main indicators of success at RFA. Instead, administrators are expected to use the administrative tools to effectively prevent disruption and execute the sort of tasks trusted users are needed to do, and administrators are deadminned when they have been found to have violated that trust. Using RFAr as some sort of end run around the lack of success in establishing some other administrator recall process, based on your personal standard of what administrator recall should involve, is not what arbcom is for. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 04:11, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disruption by administrators

13) Sustained disruption of Wikipedia is incompatible with the status of administrator. Administrators who repeatedly and aggressively engage in inappropriate activity may be desysopped by the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

From Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Proposed decision where it passed[10] 10-0. AMiB's constant edit warring and edit warring blocks would seem to be counter to this finding. rootology/equality 00:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support per precedent. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Administrators not to act unless uninvolved

14) Administrators may not use their administrative tools in any situation unless they are uninvolved. An administrator will be involved, for the purposes of user-specific tools such as blocking, if they have a prior history of conflict with the affected user(s). An administrator will be involved, for the purposes of article-specific tools such as page protection, if they have previously substantively edited the content of the affected article(s).

Administrators should also refrain from action if there is doubt as to whether they are involved, or if they could reasonably be perceived as being involved.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

From Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Abd and JzG where it passed 10-0.[11] rootology/equality 00:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

AMiB has a years-long pattern of edit warring blocks

1) AMiB has been blocked 12 times for edit warring since his RFA.[12]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support per block log. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB has a history of conflict with ARS and inclusionism/deletionism

2) AMiB has been involved with the Article Rescue Squadron and the area of "inclusionism vs. deletionism" for a long time, and has often been in conflict in regards to it.[13]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Support per experiences. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB has a history of conflict with User:Ikip

3) AMiB and Ikip have a long, ongoing, and detailed history of interaction and opposition across multiple pages and areas.[14]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Support per observations of many discussions. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB made an attack page about User:Ikip

4) See: User:A Man In Black/Let's tape Ikip up in a box and mail him to the moon.[15]

Comment by Arbitrators:

I accept A Man In Black's explanation that this page was a short-lived attempt at humor. It was ill-advised, and it can be used as evidence that Ikip and A Man In Black are not best wikifriends, but it is not at the crux of the case, and I would not make it the basis for an independent finding of fact or a sanction. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, well, it only said "note to self: buy stamps". Poor taste, but he deleted it within half an hour. Stifle (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is not a fact if the word "attack" is used to describe it. See this evidence for the proper context, here. As Stifle observes, the content cannot be construed as an attack. The only thing that can really, possibly be construed as an attack is the title, and thus the links to the page, not the actual page itself. (I've carefully not made a link to the page in the evidence.)

  It's worth noting that Rootology's own principle of Equality is marked by its absence, here. Administrators and non-administrators alike have freely made that very same link, including Rootology xyrself, in this edit, as well as A Nobody, Jack Merridew, Pablomismo, and Ikip (see the aforementioned evidence). Pablomismo has even made a similar page, with vastly more content.

  The original page was deleted within minutes; A Man In Black never linked to it again; others brought it up three months later; and A Man In Black has presented explanations of the actual point that xe was making, in the context of the original discussion, three times. It's hard to construe it as an attack on Ikip in context, although easy when presented entirely out of context, as Rootology and A Nobody have presented it. It was a badly-chosen humorous example, that A Man In Black xyrself described as unsatisfactory, that xe swiftly used xyr own administrator tools to remove. If it hadn't been turned from mole-hill into mountain by others, some several months afterwards, it would have been long-forgotten, as a rapidly-self-corrected lapse in judgement, by now. Uncle G (talk) 23:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse/support. None of us should make any pages against other editors in our userspace, even in jest. If we refer to others in our userspce, we should do so only in a manner that is complimentary of them a la User:A_Nobody#Words_of_wisdom_written_by_wise_Wikipedians. We should never use userspace to mock fellow editors, nor should we allow ourselves to get that worked up over editing here. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 00:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Referring to that page as an "attack page" is encouraging others to "get worked up over editing here". pablo_hablo. 05:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• No, it is encouraging others to not use userspace to joke about other editors. We should be here to create articles after all or userspace pages that help us in contributing to articles and future articles. We should not be here to play games. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 05:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• It is not doing that at all. It is a mischaracterisation of the page, and it was done after the page was deleted. Editors who did not see the content would tend to assume, from the references to it as an attack page, that that is a correct description. pablo_hablo. 05:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• How does making it improve Wikipedia? How could it have been a good idea? Similarly, how does User:Pablomismo/Let's give A Man In Black a wedgie and put him in a sack and tow it through a cow pasture! better Wikipedia? What articles are improved as a result? Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Of itself, it has no effect whatsoever, good or bad, on Wikipedia. Misdescribing it as an "attack page" (especially after it has been deleted) has a larger effect. pablo_hablo. 19:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Indeed, it has no constructive effect and as such is an unconstructive use of Wikipedia servers. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 19:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Editors should not make attack pages against other editors, but especially not admins, who are supposed to demonstrate persistently good judgment and civility. Master&Expert (Talk) 04:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Even if this is not an attack page, it is a bad enough joke(as AMIB self admitting it is not as funny as s/he thinks it would be) and involves enough insulting value in it against Ikip. People should really avoid doing so, since no matter how much good faith is place onto this, it is still an uncivilized action. AMIB might have self deleted it, but there are records and on top of that, deleting a page after creating it as a joke is well evidence of him abusing admin powers. At least no one can do so without the admin power and the page created would not be able to be deleted unless after a review of an admin in the speedy delete process, which could lead to many complications and might simply result a warning or even a block. MythSearcher^talk 06:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• It's not a fact. How absurd. Read the entire contents of the page. I'll undelete them if that isn't possible for some people. And, as myth searcher says above, if it is a bad joke, people should avoid doing it. How much is one person to be pilloried for a page they created, never linked to and then DELETED themselves after vocalizing that it was probably a bad idea. Hell, I've got draft messages that would get me thrown out for violating CIVIL, we I to have sent them to someone. Should I be deysopped for that? Protonk (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• In fact, AMIB linked to the page once, all other links to it, (by other editors and admins) including those mischaracterising it as an "attack" page, were made after it was deleted. pablo_hablo. 20:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• My mistake. It is still about as much of an attack page as User:Protonk/stop. Protonk (talk) 20:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB has flagrantly misrepresented his involved status as an admin

5) After he blocked Ikip, AMiB repeatedly presented himself as "uninvolved", which is patently not true.[16]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion above is relevant. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:23, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes there are borderline cases which have been discussed elsewhere and required clarification of what "uninvolved" is. This was definitely not one of those cases. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB has used his tools inappropriately as an admin

6) AMiB, despite being deeply involved with Ikip, blocked him, and also twice deleted a template that Ikip had created.[17]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 17:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No evidence of deep involvement as of the blocking, and the template was created with stated bad faith reasons. The second deletion was reversed minutes later, by me, when Ikip stated that he had created the template for other reasons, although it was never used for anything other than making a point by demonstration. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

AMiB has abused WP:SOCK and admin IP-exempt

7.1) Per the partial evidence that can be disclosed by the Arbitration Committee, AMiB has abusively edited Wikipedia under more than one identity and has misused the standard Administrator IP-exempt functionality to help facilitate that.[18]

7.2) Per the partial evidence that can be disclosed by the Arbitration Committee, AMiB has abusively edited Wikipedia under more than one identity.[19]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Administrative accounts are exempt from IPBE, per the policy, so he could have moved right from IP editing to account editing with no difficulty. The private evidence shows a shift from a blocked IP to AMIB using his account. He has responded to this in his evidence though, so if it is a violation then it will be added into the proposed decision. Wizardman 16:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

IP was blocked anon. only after checking the log. Wizardman 17:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 01:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Update with the new disclosures by the Arbcom to 7.2. rootology/equality 21:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Special:UserRights/A Man In Black does not list that account as currently having the IP block exemption right, or ever having had it. That account's user rights log shows that it has not been used to grant the the IP block exemption right (or indeed any right) to any other account. Uncle G (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Admins can edit even if their IP is blocked. I have no idea how far I can go into this, but my read of the situation is that AMiB was doing bad things as his IPs, not logged in, got blocked, and then took advantage of the fact his Admin account could freely continue on it's way. That is clear abuse of "special admin tools". If you want any more information, you need to take it up with the Arbcom or ask A Man In Black if more info can be disclosed. rootology/equality 03:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Since the IP was blocked anon only (per Wizardman and Mbisanz), any old user could have logged in and continued editing, so FoF's saying that AMIB abused admin IPblock exemption should probably be withdrawn. – Steel 17:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
• The obvious question now is - given that there was no abuse of admin privs here, does one "tetchy comment" rise to the level of an Arbcom finding? Calling it "abusive sock puppetry" is a bit of a stretch too if AMIB is right about the blocking admin's intent. – Steel 01:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• Unless AMIB is willing to disclose the edit, who knows? rootology/equality 01:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB is considered an involved Admin to Ikip and the ARS

8) Due to his deep history of involvement with Ikip[20][21][22][23] and the ARS[24], A Man In Black cannot be reasonably considered an uninvolved Administrator[25][26] with respect to use of any administrative actions involving either Ikip, or the ARS, in line with repeated previous similar findings by the Arbitration Committee in previous cases.[27]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact, even more simply put. rootology/equality 00:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this supposed to establish that I am now involved (which it does and I don't dispute)? If so, why is it being used to claim that I was involved on April 26th, as below? Where is the evidence that I was involved when I blocked Ikip? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 00:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I used the same reference and anchor links in both. As far as I know, that's quite fine. You can reply and argue the weight of involvement and continue on with that, but I am now satisfied that to any non-partisan, neutral observers, that you're well past the established weight and "line" that Arbcom judges involvement against and historically always has, and my various and sundry links and notes in my Evidence section fully demonstrate that you were involved by communal norms (but probably not your norms, which are always secondary to community ones) when you blocked Ikip, and deleted his template. I can appreciate your attempting to argue it down--you're facing an RFAR--but repeating an extra time that you weren't involved won't change the fact that based on how we've always sanely gauged this and based on how the AC has gauged this for years... you were and are still involved. rootology/equality 01:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Repeating your effort to confuse what I've done in May with the situation in April is the problem. The only thing you've linked that alleges that I was involved with Ikip in April is this entire discussion, where Abd, Protonk, and Kww speak strongly against this standard of involvement. I don't know what FOF I'm supposed to challenge to challenge this unsupported conclusion, nor can I detangle the web to figure out where on earth you supported it.

Kww asked you for evidence that I was deeply entangled with Ikip in April in that very same thread. You provided none. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Support per evidence of disputed history. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB is considered an involved Admin to Ikip and the ARS per Arbcom past decisions

9) A Man In Black's level of involvement with Ikip[28][29][30][31] & the ARS[32] is consistently in line with the historical Arbcom definitions and findings of what is considered an "involved Administrator".[33]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. Some admins in previous findings could even be said to be less involved relative to AMiB's involvement here. Based on this, and how the AC has historically weighed the burden and definition of involvement, I can't see how this is anything but factual. rootology/equality 00:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB has a history of edit warring as an Admin

10) A Man In Black has a long history of edit warring as an Administrator, which is unacceptable. This includes 12 blocks as an admin[34], and heavy edit warring in 2009.[35]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Fact. rootology/equality 00:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

(In progress, being edited, pending final links on Evidence page) Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

AMiB is placed on 1RR per week indefinitely

1) Given his long history of edit warring, AMiB is placed on 1RR per week indefinitely.[36] Should AMiB violate this, he may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator. After one year, he may appeal to the Committee to have this restriction lifted. Per finding of fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

First choice on reverting restrictions. Simple, straightforward, forces you to the talk page. If your points aren't met with consensus or support, this forces the party to live with it like the rest of us already have to. rootology/equality 18:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

+FOF. rootology/equality 23:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

AMiB is topic-banned from User:Ikip

2) Broadly construed, AMiB may not contact, interact with, nor comment on in any capacity, from article space to project space, about Ikip, except for business directly related to the Arbitration Committee and appeals to or from this case, cf Everyking & Sandifer. Indefinite. Per Finding of fact, and additional finding of fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

AMiB gets into a preponderance of trouble when interacting with Ikip, from edit warring to admin actions. This will be the best for the sanity of the community. Keeping AMiB from interacting with Ikip will go a long way to immediately eliminating any conflict. rootology/equality 18:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

+FOFs. rootology/equality 23:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes, this should render the other remedies unnecessary. — CharlotteWebb 19:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking about your reply and trying to think about what would happen if AMiB were topic banned from Ikip, but not the ARS? That's where they often encountered each other. rootology/equality 21:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support, as his involvement with Ikip is a central concern in this case. Master&Expert (Talk) 04:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

This one sounds a little unreasonable, actually. It is only a remedy to the most recent recorded problem, not a remedy to all of his/her actions, and is quite hard to perform. Say for example, Ikip commented on something, another third party commented on Ikip's comment, then AMIB can simply comment on the third party instead of Ikip. Or AMIB can simply reply anyone supporting Ikip. On the other hand, if assuming bad faith,(just to list all possibilities) Ikip can be used for stopping AMIB in any action(whether Ikip intentionally do so or not or is simply requested by someone else to do so.), no matter AMIB is correct or not. A single edit on an article by Ikip would stop AMIB in editing the page. MythSearcher^talk 06:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Support as I see no good coming from their interactions. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB is topic-banned from Article Rescue Squadron

3) Broadly construed, AMiB may not contact, interact with, nor comment on in any capacity, from article space to project space, about the Article Rescue Squadron, except for business directly related to the Arbitration Committee and appeals to or from this case, cf Everyking & Sandifer. Indefinite. Per Finding of fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

AMiB gets into a preponderance of trouble when interacting with anything to do with the ARS, from edit warring to admin actions. This will be the best for the sanity of the community. Keeping AMiB from interacting with this area will go a long way to immediately eliminating any conflict. rootology/equality 18:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

+FOF link. rootology/equality 23:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Where's the evidence that there is disruption that this will prevent? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 09:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you overlooked the edit that linked to the finding of fact which directly linked to the evidence, and the 12th community-endorsed 9-day block you just received for edit warring on ARS-related pages? rootology/equality 13:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

That FOF links to an evidence post that suggests that I am deeply involved in a vaguely defined debate. Being involved in a debate isn't disruption. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

AMiB is topic-banned from our notability issues

4) Broadly construed, AMiB may not edit articles, comment, interact with, nor comment on in any capacity, from article space to project space, about issues related to WP:Notability, or any derivative guidelines, policies, or discussions, except for business directly related to the Arbitration Committee and appeals to or from this case, cf Everyking & Sandifer. Indefinite. Per Finding of fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

AMiB gets into a preponderance of trouble when interacting with anything to do with the concept and policies governing Notability, from edit warring to admin actions. This will be the best for the sanity of the community. Keeping AMiB from interacting with this area will go a long way to immediately eliminating any conflict. This would be the broadest of the three restrictions. rootology/equality 18:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Added FOF link. rootology/equality 23:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Whilst there is evidence, that A Man In Black freely acknowledges, of edit warring at Wikipedia talk:Article Rescue Squadron/FAQ, this proposed remedy requires, as a pre-requisite, since it is explicitly based upon the assumption of such a fact, a finding of fact that there was edit warring on other pages. There's no such finding of fact above, and not even any evidence presented to support any such finding. There's no evidence in the block log, which shows only 3 blocks in the past 18 months, one of which was for the FAQ, and the other two of which were for articles. Where's the supporting evidence, and finding of fact, that should precede this remedy? Uncle G (talk) 23:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Added, and linked back from FOF to the evidence as well. Thank you for catching that technical omission! rootology/equality 23:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
    • There's still an omission. The evidence presented just shows numbers of edits. It doesn't show edit warring or mis-use of any administrator tool. Currently, you are proposing a remedy based on the mere fact that an editor is simply a talk page discussion participant, who has worked on a proposed guideline. Uncle G (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• I don't see anything on the evidence page indicating disruptive editing at the assorted notability-related pages -- merely evidence of participation. The closest is a claim of edit warring over the Gundam article, but an issue of revert-warring seems addressed in the 1RR thing proposed above -- it doesn't play into the conversations about notability on those notability discussion pages. --EEMIV (talk) 18:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB is desysopped

5) For his misuse of the administrator tools[37]; his misrepresentation[38] of "involved" status to push, enflame, and enhance conflicts[39]; for abusive sock puppetry and for abuse of the Administrative IP-exempt function[40], and for his ongoing history of edit warring blocks after his 2005 RFA[41], AMiB is desysopped. He may reapply for the tools at any time after the RFAR's conclusion via the standard community-controlled process such as WP:RFA only.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I would like to ask Rootology to reevaluate whether he still supports this remedy in light of A Man in Black's recent evidence. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Admins have been desysopped for far less. I am in principle against the AC or Jimbo returning +extra bits without community approval, once they've been taken away for misbehavior or malfeasance. rootology/equality 18:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: This proposal is in part dependent explicitly on evidence we are waiting on the Arbitration Committee to release. rootology/equality 19:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: Updated with the clearance to disclose that A Man In Black has been engaged in abusive sockpuppetry, including use of the Administrative IP auto-exempt function.[42]. I do not myself know the specifics beyond that, and the Arbs can disclose more[43] if they think it's prudent. rootology/equality 01:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB on the Evidence page seems to have issues with the presentation (and sourcing?) of his abusive sockpuppetry, which I have demonstrably rejected here. rootology/equality 15:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Reply to NYB: I've been thinking actually about drafting a 5.1, to be honest, and the wording on it. I was drafting this desysop proposal even before I first learned fragments of the hidden evidence. Even if he didn't use admin tools to evade a block, he still has been blocked repeatedly, 12 times since getting admin status, plus his involved use of tools on Ikip, leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. That is not how admins are to act. rootology/equality 21:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I count one bad block, which at face value sounds like a really slow month. The rest is just posturing. Unless there is something to indicate a sustained pattern of poor "adminning" this seems overly harsh. — CharlotteWebb 19:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Admin status and trust is not based solely on misuse of the admin tools. He also used tools against Ikip in deleting that template, and his long abusive history of edit warring comes into play. Admins have been desysopped for far less than this. rootology/equality 19:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Whom? — CharlotteWebb 19:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Before we get any further in this, there is additional evidence (the bit multiple arbs mentioned on the acceptance) that is apparently pretty damning stuff. That plays a role as well in my desysop proposal, but I can't post it till they disclose it in some form. Keep again in mind--12 blocks since he passed RFA. Off the top of my head, though: Sade, SlimVirgin, Felonious Monk, Bedford, Tango. rootology/equality 19:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll give you Tango as that case lacked any sustained pattern of bad "administrating" (to paraphrase one of the other individuals), and that hasn't been established here either. I'd recommend not proposing extreme measures based on yet-to-be-seen evidence. — CharlotteWebb 19:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I realise there's precedent for this, but I don't really see justification from the evidence (so far). Stifle (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

All my evidence is out now, for the time being. rootology/equality 01:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

This is the most reasonable proposal so far. All others are making AMIB having less rights than normal users but does not stop him/her from continual abuse of admin power. desysop him/her, then we will see his/her behaviour from that on, if he improved, then everything is fine, if not, let him/her go through the warning and blcking process like normal users. MythSearcher^talk 06:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Adding :Comment for AMIB for his reply in the Evidence page Dispute against 4 people, with AMIB input having no consensus. The sources given are improved on every edit until everything is stated clearly, all to the specification of WP:V and WP:RS. The worst thing on them might only be not using the citation template. AMIB kept reverting sources that are very well listed, including magazine sources and an official fire department website source stating they are vague, yet everything is listed for AMIB and AMIB only, since no one else ever questioned the original sources, which are basically already listing the magazine names and issue number or date, yet AMIB simply reverting or deleting them and replace them with tags making it look like no one ever added sources. AMIB's argument? they are what ? all Bandai and SRW related? Totally nonsense. There are tons of sources that included the publishing company and writer, one is even an interview from a science foundation, and one is a DVD taking about how the anime influenced the real life industry, instead of AMIB's so call vague attribution to a speaker claim. Thank you for the display of your own stubbornness, AMIB, for 7 whole months(and longer for the Gundam article), still wanting to show that your WP:POINT campaign, or I should say, crusade? I have nothing else to add to the argument, and I believe other admins would be much more reasonable than AMIB. MythSearcher^talk 15:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

So you're suggestIng I was disruptive because my argument didn't find consensus and because I made edits and talk page comments in support of my argument. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I am saying you are disruptive because you made edits that are against consensus then jump to edits and edits comments that are totally not reflecting what the article status in and show heavily representation of you trying to show you WP:POINT that you are right and others are wrong no matter how the consensus is. You failed to try to communicate with the majority of people who are reverting your edits, and simply move to make other edits to the article instead of trying to talk it out in the talk page. Also you kept making false claims in the edit comment. For the evidence I have provided in the evidence page, both pages shows that you kept claiming the sources as primary or heavily related to the article, yet the sources show a wide range of diverse publications instead. The edits you made are actually either kept reverting the tags and/or redirecting the page, after 3RR with some editors of the page disagree with your actions. MythSearcher^talk 14:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what WP:POINT means (it means to not make a point by demonstration when you can instead explain it). As for the content disputes, the "majority of the people who were reverting my edits" were, um, you. At Real Robot I edited the page about five times over two and a half months' worth of discussion with you, the only other editor to both disagree with my edits. At Gundam (mobile suit); I made a significant number of productive edits to the page, during which your contributions were demanding that I stop adding fact tags to badly-sourced factual claims and accusing me of not reading the article.

Neither of these are administrative actions, and the idea that I was uncommunicative about these edits is silly. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

While these are not directly related to you abusing admin power, other Gundam related edit wars are, and the Gundam (mobile suit) war actually is involves one of the editors you had edit war with and banned in the same series of events. In Real Robot, your argument was kept as "A term limited to SRW, redirecting there" from your first edit there, while I have already added a magazine source, you accused the page to be "no reliable sources establishing use of this term outside of SRW and fansites", which is introducing a Gundam novel using the term, thus your edit comment is not correct. However, you kept claiming there are no secondary sources in this edit, totally ignoring the fact that there are independent magazine sources, and in this edit, although I have already added in much more sources including famous Japanese magazines online version with full text talking about the genre, and a third party organization's summary of the Robot meta genre as a whole, along with the nice o' Japanese released DVD relating real robot anime with real-life robots, all NOT by Sunrise and SRW developers, you still claim We still don't have any reliable sources (a Japanese WP scraper doesn't count) that anyone but Sunrise or the SRW developers (who are Sunrise licensees) consider this a genre. and simply redirected the page. I see nothing about you trying to discuss with me since you never even read my edit comments stating very clearly telling you that the sources are indeed from third party magazines. The last of your edits have totally given up giving useful comments, you simply ignore everything and simply redirect the page asking others to find a better redirect target, with no intention of communication. At the time of your last edit, the article already have an intensive interview and talk record of a famous director of the genre, and you simply ignored it and claim it to be not notable. I see no other excuses other then you making your point about the article is not notable since you claim so from the very beginning. I don't want to go for every single detail on the Gundam (mobile suit) article as well, with you having edit warring with 3 users and then tagging the article with tags while reverting and removing sources added. fact tags on obvious pictures showing no common sense. You say that there could be a model mistaken with this one, yet you never give any possible and reasonable example for that. On this edit, you simply asked for a source for another source, all the other fact tags are basically as I have said in the edit summary, it is in the article, it is just not in the footnotes, which is a fine example of how you not read the article while engaging in edit warring. The badly sourced claim you kept saying is actually the fire department using it as a poster, where on the official site linked in the image page, showed clearly the information you asked for. MythSearcher^talk 14:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I see a lot of justification of why you were right in the content dispute. There's really no need, Real Robot has been sitting on your version for six months. Instead, where's the disruption? Five edits over two months, accompanied with two months of discussion.

As for Gundam (mobile suit), you have two disputes. One is over {{fact}} tags, with lots of you accusing me of not reading the article and demanding that I prove that things I tag with {{fact}} aren't true. This doesn't rise to an edit war. The second is over a sizable list of "variants," and it doesn't rise to an edit war either. There are lots of de novo edits to the article. Jtrainor is only involved here to protect the list of variants, he doesn't edit war with me, and he eventually removes the list himself. The closest thing to an edit war he and I get into is he reverts my removal of the list and some of my wording changes, and I go back to replace the wording changes.

I know I'm banging this drum a lot here, but this is another example why RFAr isn't the first stop. If you had felt the need to escalate this dispute, RFC would have gotten you much more-productive results, either a user RFC on my conduct or an article RFC on the various issues. Instead, it's "I was in a dispute with this user, off with his head!" - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

You do notice I am stating the view that you are not being a role model of conduct as an admin should be with these evidences, no? In Real Robot, it is in fact an edit war with you trying to redirect the page, and you claim to have discussion yet I see none. Most of the communication I receive is me saying something with no response from you but opposing actions and your replies in the page history you provided shows that even if you did reply in words, they are very not up to date with the most recent changes of the artcile, and I have to repeatly say the same thing to tell you you are reverting to your versions claiming things otherwise. On Gundam (mobile suit), the edit war is in fact started from the part of list of weapons where a 3RR then followed with fact tags addition and removal. I am not even trying to claim I am right here, I have even self admitted that I am also wrong in performing edit warring with you. I am simply stating you action you claim moving to more useful stuff is actually creating more dispute in an article. Yes, this is not a first stop, but since someone started it, I might as well give my input on this. Like I said in the evidence page, in the very beginning of my comments, you are usually helpful when you are not acting as an admin, but if most people look into you as a role model of conduct in wikipedia, we will be in great trouble. The best solution seems to be having you as a normal editor while we can see if you can actually perform the improved actions you claimed you can do now before other think about if you should be an admin again. MythSearcher^talk 05:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I made five edits to Real Robot, and there's two months of discussion on my talk. There's just no edit war there, and there's no lack of communication. There's no administrative action, no hint of administrative action, no misconduct from any party, and just plain nothing other than a dispute. Administrators are editors. They get in disputes. I daresay that every single person here, editor, admin, arb, anon, or whatever, has been in a content dispute before, and if they were as all as low-key as Real Robot then Wikipedia would be quite well off. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 06:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If your idea of communication is like the one in Real Robot, then we have a problem. 1st edit you did is redirect, 5th edit you did is still, redirect. Your talk page you used the same reasoning from the start to the end, it seems like useless no matter what I say, all I get back is the same reasoning disregarding my commments. MythSearcher^talk 08:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Support as there is clearly enough controversy over a couple of blocks and general behavior as an administrator. I recommend a reconfirmation RfA to get a wider community wide thought here. So, yes, ArbCom should desysop so that a second RfA can take place to get the community's thoughts as a whole. If after a new RfA, the community believes he should be an administrator, okay, if not, then many articles can use help being improved, so not being an admin does not equal, not being able to help improve Wikipedia. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB is desysopped (2)

6) For his misuse of the administrator tools[44]; his misrepresentation of "involved" status to push, enflame, and enhance conflicts with Ikip[45]; for abusive sock puppetry(7.2), for his ongoing history of edit warring blocks after his 2005 RFA[46][47], and for his pattern of edit warring in 2009[48], AMiB is desysopped for disruption[49] and behavior unbecoming an administrator. He may reapply for the tools at any time after the RFAR's conclusion via the standard community-controlled process such as WP:RFA only.

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Revised proposal. rootology/equality 00:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

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Proposals by User:MBisanz

Proposed principles

Sockpuppetry

1) The use of sockpuppet accounts, while not generally forbidden, is discouraged. Abuse of sockpuppet accounts, such as using them to evade blocks, bans, and user accountability—and especially to make personal attacks or reverts, or vandalize—is prohibited.

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Administrative behavior

2) Because of their position of trust in the community, administrators are held to a higher standard of behavior than non-administrators.[50]

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Support as we should look to them as experienced leaders of sorts. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

Socking

1) A Man In Black (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has used multiple identities in an abusive manner.

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Evasion

2) A Man In Black (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has used the IP block exemption function of his administrative account to evade a block.

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I went back and re-checked the block log on request, it had the entry "(anon. only, account creation blocked, autoblock disabled)", which means it would probably be better to characterize it as abuse by block evasion than abuse by administrative block evasion. MBisanz ^talk 17:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Desysopped

1) For various policy violations, A Man In Black (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is desysopped. A Man In Black may obtain the tools back via the usual means or by request to the arbitration committee.

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Support per my reasoning above, i.e. clearly there is controversy and it should go back to the community as a whole after this case to see what the community thinks. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I too support a Desysop. Tiptoety ^talk 00:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposals by Steel

Proposed principles

(The usual principles about decorum, edit warring and so on have been proposed already above)

Proposed findings of fact

Ikip has edit warred

1) Ikip (talk · contribs) has engaged in frequent edit warring (per evidence) while adhering to the letter of WP:3RR.

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Proposed. – Steel 11:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Ikip's conduct

2) Throughout the Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron conflict and its MfD, Ikip (talk · contribs) has exhibited inappropriate levels of hostility and aggression towards A Man In Black and others who disagreed with him. (per evidence)

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Proposed. – Steel 11:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Ikip admonished

1) Ikip (talk · contribs) is admonished for his conduct and instructed to edit collaboratively and productively with people who may not share his wikiphilosophical viewpoint. This includes, but is not limited to, refraining from assumptions of bad faith.

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Proposed. – Steel 11:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Ikip placed on revert parole

2) For his edit warring, Ikip (talk · contribs) is subject to an editing restriction for 6 months. Ikip is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting blatant vandalism), and is required to discuss any reversions on the page's talk page.

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Proposed. – Steel 11:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposals by User:Z

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General discussion

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