Talk:White people

Hitler

Why dont you guys add Hitler to this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.47.3 (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Black People are more important???

Why the article "Black People" is blocked and "White People" not? Or both should be blocked or both shouldn't.

Bad Footnote

The term "white race" or "white people" entered dictionaries of the major European languages in the 1600s.[6] Unless there is a good reference this needs to modified. English (a major European language) didn't even have dictionaries in the 17th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitpyck (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

According to sources from the dictionary article, what you wrote isn't true; English had dictionaries in 1600s. -- Irn (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

"ends with a list of 8000 "hard words". Mulcaster does not define any of them." This 1- hardly constitutes a dictionary and 2- would not have included white race or white people. The cite should be to the first dictionary to include and define white people or white race. In fact the footnote [6] has nothing to do with dictionaries.Nitpyck (talk) 03:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Washed-out photograph, Werner Heisenburg

Is Bar Refaeli white?

Why on earth did Arjacent (talk · contribs) find it necessary to remove the photograph of Bar Refaeli and add a washed-out image of an apparently non-notable unidentified person, File:Blonde girl from Poland.jpg, to this article, with the explanation "Did not feel Israeli model represented the European ethnicity, replaced with a Slavic model." [1]? May I be forgiven for inferring that concerns over both correct exposure and notability have been subordinated to an Antisemitic agenda? By any reasonable anthropological criteria, Bar Refaeli is obviously white. I particularly note her blue eyes, light complexion, freckles, and Caucasian facial features; see this image from her website for further evidence. Indeed, if her name were "Jane Smith" from Fargo, North Dakota, USA, instead of "Bar Refaeli", from Hod HaSharon, Israel, I doubt we would be having this discussion. Since this is Wikipedia, not Führerpedia, the wacky "the Jews are not white" theory promoted by Adolph Hitler and contemporary neo-Nazi activists has no place here.

Furthermore, the fact that Werner Heisenberg was criticized as a "White Jew" by proponents of "Deutsche Physik" due to his support for the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics very much does "belong with main discussion", despite Arjacent's contention to the contrary [2]. This article is describing "whiteness" as a sociological concept, not just as a genetic phenomenon. That Heisenberg's "whiteness" was impugned by elements of the German physics community due to a professional disagreement, with support from the SS, is a compelling example of some of the bizarre ways in which "whiteness" has been socially constructed, particularly by societies that were obsessed with race. Erik9 (talk) 04:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, to editors worried about ridding this article of photographs of anyone "Jewish", you're going to have to remove File:John Key National Party2.jpg too: see John_Key#Personal_life... Erik9 (talk) 04:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

ARJACENT VS ERIK9 DEBATE ON WHETHER BAR IS WHITE

According to the definition of white race, found on Wikipedia, the term refers to people of primarly European ancestry. Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country, does not meet this criteria. John Key, being an Ashkenazi Jew, may and you will note that no attempt was made to remove his picture. The 'may' part is dicussed below.

From both a sociological and genetic point of view, "white people" most commonly refers to people of European descent and not merely those with white pigmentation. For if it did, the defintion would be too general to be of any use. Afterall, some oriental, Semitic, and African people share similar phenotypes such as fair skin and light eyes and would likewise have a claim. Common experience should also tell you that Europeans differ in appearance (height, complexion, etc) and culture (language, food, etc) from other fair skinned peoples, and there is genetic evidence that suggests they are unique. I invite you to read on haplogroups and other indicators of race at the genetic level, here are some links to get you started: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf Broadly speaking, R1 at sufficient frequency is an indicator of who is ethnically European, and not the geographical borders.

Next, even if we went under the assumption that Israeli people were white they would represent less than 2% of the white population. Why would such a small fraction be represented so disproportionately, if at all? They would be a poor indicator of what white people and white culture is, by numbers alone and by their proximity to other semitic cultures. This brings me to the topic of Ashkenazi Jews. Because they are a mixture of european and semitic people, they are unique from whites in that they posses a J haplogroup (see links above). Likewise, a lot of them choose to adopt Jewish culture and identify themselves as being Jewish. However, there are others that chose to adopt european culture and physically resemble whites. For these reasons, whether Ashkenazi Jews are regarded as being white varies across individuals and is open to debate. Had John Key been removed your appeal would be warranted.

I feel the picture I chose is appropriate because only Western Europeans (R1b) appeared on the page. The Polish model represents Eastern Europeans (R1a) and the blonde/blue eye phenotype common to northern whites. Both of these groups are a more accurate descrption of what is generally meant by white people. To me, an Israeli model seems to be more of a political attempt at correctness than of exatcness. What is more absurd is claiming she is more notable. Putting aside the fact that notability has no bearing whatsoever when dicussing a general topic like 'white people', by what criteria is she "more notable". Because she has a website and a name? I personally never heard of her and only noticed her because of a picture that I suspected was in the wrong place.

Lastly, on a personal note, I find your charges of implied racism and neo-nazism most offensive. I would appretiate it if you tone down such remarks.

.... Regarding Deutsche Physik, I also feel it diverges from the main topic. It is not an example of "social whiteness" but rather one of "Jewish hate", and as such more approriately belongs to a thread on antisemitism. At the very most, it deserves a mention via external link. For these reasons I am reverting the picture I had chosen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arjacent (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Your argument regarding Y-DNA haplogroups is rather circular: you're claiming that those people who you define, a priori, as white have certain genetic characteristics, and that these characteristics indicate their whiteness. Furthermore, the claim that "Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country", cannot be white, is preposterous: one might as well claim that South Africans whose ancestors were British and Dutch immigrants cannot be white, because South Africa is an African country. Of course, somewhat like South Africa, the Jewish population of Israel is racially heterogeneous: it includes Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated from Europe, Sephardic Jews of Middle Eastern descent, and Ethiopian Jews of African ancestry. One can therefore draw no conclusions whatsoever about the race of a Jewish citizen of Israel solely as a result of their religious and/or cultural identity, and their nation of residence. As explained above, Bar Refaeli quite clearly appears to be of European ancestry; if it were possible for any Jewish person to be white, she should certainly qualify. This brings us, of course, to the wacky racial theories of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Julius Streicher et al, as articulated in Mein Kampf, Der Stürmer, etc: they contended that Jewish people couldn't possibly be white, because the Jews were race unto themselves, separate and alien from "Aryan" Germans. I really hope that you aren't trying to employ Wikipedia for the same purpose...

Now, the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article :) They cannot possibly stand having an image of someone who, based on her name and country of residence, is quite obviously Jewish even from a cursory reading of the image caption, and whose physical appearance is clearly white, since this would constitute rather embarrassing evidence against their "Jewish race" theory (and once that central tenet of neo-Nazism is disproved, every other associated claim collapses like a house of cards). Erik9 (talk) 04:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

.... I fail to see how my DNA haplogroups employ circular reasoning. I used the common definition of white, 'referring narrowly to people claiming ancestry exclusively from Europe' and showed why Israelites, who according to haplogroups share ancestry with other Asian/Middle Eastern country, cannot possibly fit this definition. The distincion between whites of South Africans is that they do, assuming that interbreeding did not take place or exists at small frequencies (because that would make them mulatto). Israelites are semitic, and their culture and food is vastly different from Europeans. Circumcision, Afro-Asiatic semtic langauges, keffiyeh, pitas, etc. are not things typically associated with 'white culture'. How can you call my definition a priori? If by your broader definition of whites Israelites are included, there should be more pictures of other semitic/arabic peoples such as Iranians and Palestinians, and mulattoes and light eyed orientals should likewise be included who likewise have similar phenotypes. You can see why being this general makes the term obsolete, because in virtually all colloquial talk (with the exception of some regions) the common definition is adopted. Yet you say my definition is not pragmatic? White and Caucasian are not synonymous; neither socially nor genetically.

What makes you so certain Refaeli has such a strong European ancestry? What makes you so certain she subscribes to white culture, according to common definition again, is synonomous with European culture (ie. Christmas, Indo-European langauge, pork, etc). You do realize that most Jewish people, regardless of what variety, largely subscribe to Jewish culture and identify themselves are being Jewish. This isn't a label; they CHOOSE to remain distinct as an ethnic group, hence the term DIASPORA. You completely side step the fact that such a small portion is deserving of such over representation (50% of all 'white people' images, less than 1% total general 'white people') - this gives future readers a very poor representation.

You side-step all of my points and continue with your Neo-Nazi accusations. I couldn't care what Hitler thought the white race is. If you are going to take an objective stance you cannot let something so political slant your view (oooo! Hitler did it, therefore it is evil). In fact, you have identified your purpose of posting Bar's picture: "the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article". Not objective truth, not useful information, but a silly political agenda aimed at annoying few readers.

Since Israel, as explained above, is not a racially homogenous society, any argument predicated upon the claim that certain inferences can be drawn about any Israeli citizen due to generalizations about the country is fallacious. Naturally, if you define "white culture" in a way that is deliberately inimical to Judaism, eg, celebrating Christmas or consumption of pork, then no Jewish person could possibly qualify as "culturally white". There is, however, an interesting video of Bar Refaeli demonstrating native-speaker level fluency in one of the world's most common Indo-European languages: English. Is Refaeli still considered "not white" since she also speaks Hebrew at a native-speaker level? Would an otherwise white linguist become "not white" if she became highly fluent in a Hebrew or another Semitic language? Interesting questions to ponder :) Erik9 (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not pointing out the similarity of your claims that no Jewish citizen of Israel could possibly be white, even if they are the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated to Israel from Europe within the last 60 years, to Hitler, Goebbels, and Streicher's racial theories regarding Judaism for the purpose of making the facile assertion "Hitler did it, therefore it is evil" -- a claim which would be absurd if made with respect to anti-smoking campaigns, freeways, or anything which was only coincidentally promoted by Nazi Germany. Rather, the "no Jews could possibly be white" claim was invoked as a core justification for what is considered particularly evil about Hitler and Nazism: their mass murder of millions of people. That you've come to this article to support a key tenet of Nazi policies of murder by giving dispositive racial significance to a Hebrew name and Israeli citizenship is disconcerting, to say the least. Erik9 (talk) 03:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

An ethnicity is not something one chooses, it is something one is born into. Genetic studies show that Jewish people, and hence Israelites, are genetically very similar despite being of varied races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation#Israel read Israel tab). This is largely because they choose to marry within Jewish families. Regardless of the fact that they reside in various countries, they rarely assimilate and culturally share more with one another than with the country they reside in. That is THEY CHOOSE TO REMAIN ISOLATED, DISTINCT GROUPS despite how widespread they are. The majority of Jewish people, particularily the Ashkenazi, share some European ancestry. But, according to haplogroups, these numbers are in very low frequencies and hence Israelites do not meet the crietia of 'primarly European descent'. Should 'white people' now refer to anyone who is mixed white? Is Barrack Obama a white president?

I did not choose Christmas, etc to purposefully exclude Jewish people, I choose it because that is what the majority of Europes practiced for many centuries and it is embedded into their culture. It also illustrates how the Jewish community chose to remain distinct from their neighbours, by maintaining their traditions. Residing in a country does not define ones ethnicity. Being fluent in a language does not make you part of an ethnic group either. So no, speaking Hebrew, English, French, Persian or whatever has no bearing on whether Bar is white. I believe Bar is not white because she is mixed Middle Eastern. In my opinion, she does not fully resemble what a typical European looks like - there is a touch of something else. Unless you choose to accept that mixed people subscribe to one ethinicity, or that Middle Eastern people are white, she cannot possibly be white. There are some Ashkenazi Jews, particularily those in New York, that look a lot more European. Even though they don't practice Judaism, they still identify themselves as Jewish before white. Are they white? Their appearance certainly suggests that at the genetic level, the semitic DNA has been watered down, but without actual haplogroups I can only conjecture.

Hitler, from what I understand, was concerned with an Aryan race and viewed anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes as sub-human. Aryan and white are not synonymous. His plan was to eliminate a large number of Europeans as well, particularily the Slavs. Not because he view them as not being white, but because he viewed them as not being Aryan.

No really, it's untenable to distance yourself from Nazism only through an absurd caricature of Hitler's racial theories. Adolph Hitler had neither blond hair nor blue eyes, so to claim that "Hitler... viewed anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes as sub-human" is bizarre: Hitler met his end through a self-inflicted gunshot wound, but his suicide was related to Germany's imminent military defeat and avoidance of capture and execution, not due to a belief in his own racial inferiority. Furthermore, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it isn't concerned with genetics, but rather with who is regarded as "white" on the basis of their physical appearance. Bar Refaeli would be regarded as "white" in appearance by almost everyone except Hitler, his fellow National Socialists, and their contemporary protégés. Perhaps her photograph should included with more delicately worded caption to that effect. Erik9 (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Contradictory statements

In the second paragraph under "Origins of Light Skin", these two statements appear:

"This probably explains the greater variety of skin color found outside sub-Saharan Africa.[28]" "Though African populations are relatively dark, according to a recent study[citation needed] they possess a greater diversity in skin complexion than all other populations."

These appear to be a direct contradiction. The second statement has no citation, so perhaps it is unfounded, but it may just be sloppy editing. Be that as it may, both statements cannot be true; if they are conflicting views supported by different academic authorities, that should be stated. However, I don't feel I know enough about the subject to edit, so if someone who knows about this can clarify the situation it would be helpful.

CattOfTheGarage (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

So why is there no mention of the Ainu of Japan? They have white skin. And early anthropologists were perplexed over their anomalous existence, some of them hypothesizing (IIRC) that there was a prehistoric white which connected them to Europeans. -- llywrch (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

They don't actually have white skin, just lighter than some of their neighbors. Dougweller (talk) 19:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

One early use of the term appears in the Amherst Papyri, which were scrolls written in ancient Ptolemaic Greek. It contained the use of black and white in reference to human skin color.[4] The cited reference says exactly the opposite. Nitpyck (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

images

I can see this article usefully including images. But this will not amount to a gallery of Miss Iceland and assorted other "very white" specimens. It would rather need to be a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour, such as a systematic presentation of Fitzpatrick skin types I to IV, as in the images here. Having no images is better than WP:SYNTH galleries cobbled together based on aesthetic or similarly arbitrary criteria. --dab (𒁳) 17:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

What you deride as "WP:SYNTH galleries cobbled together based on aesthetic or similarly arbitrary criteria" is, in fact, the accepted method of assembling images for all Wikipedia articles except this one - for instance, the lead photograph in the Tulip article, the featured image File:Tulip - floriade canberra.jpg, was not published in any reliable horticultural source attesting to its botanical designation, and was undoubtedly selected based on "aesthetic... criteria". Fortunately, per Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images, the accepted method of selecting images for inclusion in every article except this one is consistent with Wikipedia policy. As Wikipedia is not censored, this article should not be subjected to heightened image source restrictions merely due to certain editors' distaste for its subject matter :) Erik9 (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, due to an acute shortage of freely licensed images included in "a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour", the repudiation of Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images for this article only would effectively amount to a prohibition of images here. If you do wish to entirely exclude images from this article (while apparently being unconcerned with the fact that the counterpart article Black people is richly illustrated with images largely unpublished in any reliable sources), then it is incumbent upon you to explain why this article deserves a unique, counter-policy treatment. Erik9 (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Erik9, are you even aware of the long history of debate on image use both here and at Talk:Black people? Before you take this any further, I recommend you acquaint yourself with it. --dab (𒁳) 19:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

RfC: images

Shall this article include images, and if so, under what conditions? Erik9 (talk) 18:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll say it again, this article can usefully include images, but only based on a systematic approach. No random galleries of the "Miss Iceland" kind. My suggestion is to compile a good illustration of "Fitzpatrick types I to IV" (yes, Miss Iceland can be type I). This can appear under the "physical appearance" section. Other images may be appropriate under the "history" section. Nobody is disputing there can in principle be images here. But past experience has shown that allowing random images quickly degenerates into WP:SYNTH galleries of dubious merit. Present your suggested images here and see if they find consensus for inclusion. --dab (𒁳) 19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

compare the sparing and well-balanced use of images at black people. This is the result of a long uphill battle to remove huge galleries of mugshots. One important point in any presentation of images illustrating "white people" (as opposed to a large range of possibilities of other images, including historical literature, maps, diagrams and the like), will be a decent balance between the various subtypes, i.e. alongside the light "Nordic" type, we'll also need to show the darker tans of the Mediterranean or Arab/Berber "Middle Eastern" type still included under "white". The difficult point is that "white" as a racial term isn't directly related to skin lightness: there are people falling under "colored" in United States which will have significantly lighter skin than Middle Eastern / Eurasian people falling under "white". --dab (𒁳) 19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Please review the discussion at Talk:White_people#Washed-out_photograph.2C_Werner_Heisenburg. If the likes of Arjacent (talk · contribs) are going to object to an image of Bar Refaeli because maybe she might be of slightly Middle Eastern ancestry, then you're going to have a heck of a time including a photograph of anyone who is primarily of Arab/Berber descent. Furthermore, I find your arguments inconsistent with your editing - removing all images from the article because you disagree with their selection or presentation is somewhat like blanking the text of the article due to a distaste for its rhetorical style. Wikipedia is built through repeated and incremental improvement, not massive page-blanking - please try to do better. Erik9 (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

• If images are to be used, they should be used in a way that increases the reader's understanding of the subject. They should not simply be used for decorative purposes. So, to begin with, there should be some obvious anchor to the text in the section to which the image is included. Any images used should also have some sort of encyclopaedic value. Most people think "northern European" when they think "white". Images could show diversity in the meaning of the term - for example, "white" in the US includes Arabs and Iranians, but excludes people like Beyonce or Mariah Carey; most Puerto Ricans self-identify as "white"; in Brazil "white" relates in part to SES. Bob Marley was rejected as "white", while Haile Selassie was embraced as "black". If issues like that are addressed (not saying they should or shouldn't be), then images are very useful. But images added simply as a gallery aren't very useful, especially if they only show one aspect of "whiteness". Guettarda (talk) 19:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it should clearly illustrate the meaning attached to to usage of the term. Jóhanna Vala Jónsdóttir would be considered "white" under almost any definition. Bar Refaeli would be regarded as "white" everywhere except Nazi Germany, and by contemporary neo-Nazi activists. Mohammad Khatami meets certain definitions of "whiteness", but not others. Surely a restructuring of the image selection to more clearly depict the article's subject matter would be preferable to just blanking everything. Erik9 (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I thought this RFC was about the general issue of including images, not the specific issue of whether this version was preferable to this version. If that's the case, then I definitely support the latter version. That gallery of images does nothing to improve the article and creates a misleadingly narrow impression of the term. If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing. Guettarda (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)