Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Communist genocide: Difference between revisions

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Communist genocide

This article is highly POV propaganda and an unneeded fork/original research. Every system of government is responsible for many deaths throughout history, I don't see why Communism must be singled out. Furthermore, the deaths that occurred under communism was not genocide. Triplestop x3 17:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Communist genocide refers to the genocide carried out by communist regimes across the world. From the very beginning, communism forged a new order based on genocide" Wow, thats about as POV as it gets. Triplestop x3 15:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep Communism killed 100 million people which is more than Nazism. Communist genocide is a fact. Please keep this article. The article is nominated for deletion minutes after its creation. I am still working on it. --Joklolk (talk) 17:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. You can work on it, but there is nothing of encyclopedic value here--just a big ole soapbox. Drmies (talk) 17:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, the material is appropriate, but it's being assembled in an inappropriate way; Communist genocide falls under WP:NEO. Mintrick (talk) 17:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete. I think the article is an obvious POV-fork and used for some kind of advocacy. Just look at the first sentence: "Communist genocide refers to the genocide carried out by communist regimes across the world. From the very beginning, communism forged a new order based on genocide." But the source given does not even mention the term "communist genocide." Also, the claim "communism forged a new order based on genocide" is the opinion of the journalist who wrote the article - why is this used in the lead of an article without attribution, as if this was an universally accepted truth? What exactly does "a new order based on genocide" mean anyway? Does the term "communist genocide" (as referring to an universal concept) really even exist in credible sources? Taking a quick look at some of the references used in the article, there is no indication that it is a real "term." For example, the article says "Former Vietnamese judge Nguyen Cao Quyen who was a victim of communist political repression after communist victory in Vietnam War describes communist genocide as "genocide of entire classes" (clearly implying that the source is talking about a universal concept "communist genocide", but the source actually says: "Since 1945, the Vietnamese Communists exterminated religious leaders, assassinated opposition leaders, killed intellectuals, businessmen, and even peasants who disagreed with their ideology. These terrorist acts were crimes against humanity and the genocide of entire classes." Thus, is does not use the term "communist genocide" at all. It seems that this article is being used as a vehicle to invent a new concept and give credibility to it. I'm sure all of this material is present in the articles about the different genocides, so there is absolutely no need for this advocating, original synthesis article. Offliner (talk) 10:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, notable concept - used in 300+ books. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those refer to specific incidents where communist regimes have committed genocide, not an overarching concept of "communist genocide". This article is about the latter. Mintrick (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I haven't found any indication that the latter even exists. Can someone please point out a source which really discusses the universal concept "communis genocide"? Offliner (talk) 10:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There's a lot more here than the BB, which is just one of the sources--the question is whether there is a type of genocide characteristic of Communist regimes; personally, I have my doubts about it as a specific common factors but it's a well-known concept. DGG (talk) 00:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The main problem with the article is that it's original synthesis. For example, is there a source which explicitly states that "during the Russian Civil War the Bolsheviks engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Don Cossacks" is part of an universal "communist genocide"? All of the incidents listed here are covered in their own articles, so why do we need this article? Here we are replicating content that is already present elsewhere, and putting it all together in a very questionable way. Offliner (talk) 01:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, "communist genocide" is a specific concept, for example Rebecca Knuth treats it as such in the chapter Understanding Genocide: Beyond Remembrance or Denial --Martintg (talk) 02:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still doesn't indicate the overall concept is notable though. Triplestop x3 03:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in that article that would confirm that "communist genocide" is a specific term or a concept. The article mentions it only once, in the title. The term itself is not discussed in the article at all. Offliner (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per Offliner. --Russavia ^Dialogue 11:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, very strong keep!! Communist regimes have been involved in so many genocides..Stalin, Katyn, Pol Pot, etc, etc, etc...I can go on and on..--Jacurek (talk) 11:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we already have separate articles about those genocides. This article is about the universal concept of "communist genocide" - of which I haven't seen any indication that such concept (or even the term) exists. Offliner (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. First, what certain totalitarian regimes that called themselves communist did was democide. Second, these events were unconnected. Picture, for example, as article called "Capitalist genocide" that lists the Holocaust and other crimes of the Nazis, the Rape of Nanking, everything in Category:Massacres of Native Americans, the Armenian Genocide and the Rwandan Genocide and claimed it was capitalist theory that united these events. Abductive (reasoning) 12:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, there is enough reference in academic literature to merit an article. --Hillock65 (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where? — Rankiri (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Mintrick's comment. Communism as an ideology is no more responsible for genocide than capitalism or any number of religions, none of which have their own genocide articles. The relevant information in the article should be fragmented and moved to its appropriate article. Honestly, the cold war is over, we all know communism sucks. Can we keep the propaganda and ancient ideology wars out of wikipeida please? LokiiT (talk) 13:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a highly subjective, uneducated POV fork. Aside from fully agreeing with Abductive's arguments, I also don't see any factual evidence that "Communist genocide refers to the genocide carried out by communist regimes across the world." All books seem to use the phrase trivially and none of them seem to refer to "Communist genocide" as a universal concept. As for Google Books, it also shows a whole bunch of results for "capitalist atrocities", "socialist monstrosity", "capitalist genocide", "socialist genocide", "economic slaughter" and "drunken Batman". Let's concentrate on specific evidence, not on WP:GHITS. — Rankiri (talk) 13:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Abductive. If the concept is notable, please show me one single academic publication that deals with "communist genocide" as a topic, not mentions it in passing in relation to specific events which may or may not be a part of a bigger picture. Communist regimes committed many atrocities, yes, but it is not our job as Wikipedians to collect them all in one place and present as a concept. That's a textbook example of what synthesis is.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:19, August 5, 2009 (UTC)
Delete as WP:SYNTH. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – original research used to push an anti-communist POV. If there is to be an article about "communist genocide", there needs to be material covering that concept itself and not list various genocides—regardless of how obvious it may seem—and then draw the arrow yourself. MuZemike 15:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Offliner and per Mintrick's comments furthermore. PasswordUsername (talk) 17:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep and only because the article points out, correctly, that there are laws that use the term "communist genocide" specifically (the Czech law referred to in the article provides that "The person who publicly denies, puts in doubt, approves or tries to justify Nazi or Communist genocide or other crimes of Nazis or Communists will be punished by prison of 6 months to 3 years", from [1]. Strictly speaking, genocide is the eradication of a particular race or culture, not the slaughter of people who oppose a regime. Mandsford (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is not what the article is talking about, its all a POV fork against communism. Triplestop x3 18:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The communits genocide as method in the so called class strugle for domination can be traced back to The Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels, defined as necessary tool against a number of various wholesale groups of reactionaries. Please go back to it, and everything else will start to make sense right away. --Poeticbent talk 18:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But that is not what the article is about, its a highly POV against communism. Read the first sentence. Triplestop x3 18:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Defined as what exactly? And by whom? You? As one can see from your edit, there is a multitude of original research going on in this article, and I would stress that others keep an eye on it. --Russavia ^Dialogue 22:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Certainly there are actions of communist regimes which qualify as genocide. "Democide" (to the mention of that alternative) is a term used only on WP to lobby that killing millions is something other than genocide. VЄСRUМВА ☎ 00:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is plenty of academic use of "communist genocide" to refer to communist acts in Cambodia and elsewhere. Not to be flippant, but I genuinely fail to see what Offliner means by not a "universal" term. Certainly it is well used on this planet, which is all that counts. VЄСRUМВА ☎ 00:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only used on WP? Of course a simple Google search does lead one to call shenanigans on your laughable claim. --Russavia ^Dialogue 00:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice userbox on your userpage also. Triplestop x3 00:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 : There is plenty of academic use of "communist genocide" to refer to communist acts in Cambodia and elsewhere. Not to be flippant, but I genuinely fail to see what Offliner means by not a "universal" term. Certainly it is well used on this planet, which is all that counts. [[User:Vecrumba|<font style="color: #a12830; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;">V<small>ЄСRUМВА</small>]] [[User_talk:Vecrumba|<font style="color: #ffffff;background-color:#a12830;">&nbsp;&#9742;&nbsp;</font>]]</font> 00:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 : Only used on WP? Of course a simple Google search does lead one to call shenanigans on your laughable claim. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 00:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
+: Nice userbox on your userpage also. [[User talk:Triplestop|'''<font color="blue">Triplestop''']] [[Special:Contributions/Triplestop|<small>x3</small>]]</font> 00:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)