Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes (2nd nomination)

Mass killings under Communist regimes

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes
• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes (3rd nomination)

Mass killings under Communist regimes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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And under its previous name:

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Communist genocide
• Articles for deletion/Communist genocide (2nd nomination)

Communist genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) (moved at start of process of second AfD to "Mass Killings")

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This article has been problematic for over five years. It violates WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV persistently because it is a WP:COATRACK. The solution is to delete this fork, or create an article centering around killings in 20th century. We should not be scraping up bits and pieces of different things to create unbalanced, unacademic, unencyclopedic articles as has been done here. Its been given enough time. Repeated nominations have resulted in the same old refrain that it can be fixed. We shouldn't accept that argument any longer. The article hasn't been fixed after so much time because it can't be fixed. --TIAYN (talk) 19:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The issue of deletion has been raised way too often, and, in a few cases, the article has been almost vandalized by some who seek deletion (in one case, having 2/3 deleted in a single edit IIRC) in order to provide grounds for deletion. The course for those who fear SYN is to edit the article to remove any actual SYN, not to use it as a grounds for deletion. The article is not a "fork" making that argument inapt. The issue of "balance" is settled by editing to add balance, not by deletion. As for asserting that the article can not be fixed - that is a substantial misstatement. The article as it stands meets reasonable article requirements and ought to be retained. I would also point out that each statement in the article is referenced, making it one of the most thoroughly referenced articles in all of mainspace. Collect (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Note: This is the fourth nomination since 3 August 2009, making it an average of one nomination for deletion every two months. (three times while the article has had the present name)Collect (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Further note: The last "no consensus" !vote was roughly 2 to 1 for "Keep" -- and some of the "deletes" were from editors who contributed to Anti-communist mass killings which was kept at AfD (where they voted, naturally, for "Keep.") Read it. Collect (talk) 11:07, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment It has been problematic for almost a year. In August 2009, it was created by a troll as communist genocide. Immediately a number of editors jumped at this opportunity to create a battleground. Under that title it was nominated in August, October, renamed in Novemvber, and immediately was nominated for deletion again. (Igny (talk) 20:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC))

It was moved on 24 September 2998, less than an hour after the second deletion, and pursuant to discussion on its talk page AFAICT. First AfD was started on 3 Aug, closed 10 Aug. Second was 24 Sep to 2 Oct (noting the name change occured before any !votes). Third one (second under current name) was opened 8 Nov closed 15 Nov (this one was roughly 2 to 1 for "Keep.") This is third nomination where the article at the time of any !votes has had the current name. Collect (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Delete There is insufficient academic research on this subject for any possibility of writing this article without bias or synthesis. Despite attempts to resolve these problems it appears that they are insurmountable. The Four Deuces (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• Delete following a Dissect/Merge. Even aside from the distinct possibility that the article serves as a POV-Coatrack, the article still suffers seemingly insurmountable problems. Per User:The Four Deuces above, I can't identify any unifying academic framework which ties together the article's various topics. Despite numerous attempts at consensus, this severe deficiency has prevented editors from even coming to a general understanding of what is and what is NOT appropriate for inclusion. This conflict on such a basic understanding has led to a vast uncertainty in the terminology fundamental to the Wiki article, causing the article to reach its current sprawling breadth, wherein everything under the sun seems fair game for inclusion. The result is that the article reads like a disparate mishmash of commentary from various minority POV authors, who it seems have little agreement even with each other. My suggestion is to dissect the article, and merge each country's historical information into the main article for that country, keeping in mind WP:UNDUE. BigK HeX (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
• Keep there are enough WP:RS sources out there written on the subject: most notable probably Helen Fein's chapter on Soviet and Communist Genocides and Democide in Genocide: a sociological perspective ISBN 9780803988293, Communist mass killings by Benjamin A. Valentino, R. J. Rummel who has been using a term communist democide; not to mention "Communist genocide" alone gives 441 returns on google books and 75 on google scholar. Should be more than enough resources out there to write a good article about the subject that was titled "Mass killings under Communist regimes" as a compromise to achieve a consensus. See Requested_move_II--Termer (talk) 05:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Speedy keep. Fifth AfD in nine months - someone most be really desperate to get rid of this article. Valid topic, plenty of academic sources, including monographies dedicated to the topic. The term "Communist genocide" has been used for more than fifty years, with numerous articles discussing it since the mid-1950s. Definitely not a fringe view and not a coatrack. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is still not a reason for deletion. --Sander Säde 08:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. A very valid topic! The article deals with historic realties that should not be overlooked. It is well referenced. I see no reason for deletion . Sir Floyd (talk) 10:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. The subject is unencyclopedic. No other mainstream encyclopedia has an article similar to this one. The idea promoted by this article, that belief in the doctrines of communism leads to mass killing, is not supported by academic sources, which are much more likely to attribute mass killing to dictatorship than to specifically communist beliefs. The article separates out mass killing under communist dictatorships from mass killing under Right-wing dictatorships without academic support.

I also note that the people who want the article kept attribute motives to the people who want the article deleted: "a single edit, in order to provide grounds for deletion", "some of the deletes were from editors who contributed to it", "really desperate to get rid of this article". The article should be defended or condemned on its merits. Personal attacks (on either side) are inappropriate.

A few more points. The idea that this should be decided by a "vote" with less than a dozen people voting is absurd. The decision should be based on an objective evaluation of the merits of the case by Wikipedia Gods.

Turning to the merits of the case, one vote to keep states: "sources out there written on the subject: most notable probably Helen Fein's chapter on Soviet and Communist Genocides and Democide in Genocide: a sociological perspective". As best I can tell, there are two texts titled "Genocide: a Sociological Perspective", one an out of print book, the other a journal article, neither a chapter in a book. I have not been able to find a copy, but based on the comments by reviewers, it seems clear that the author does not attribute genocide to communism, but discusses the subject in a wider context. Another source cited is "Communist mass killings] by Benjamin A. Valentino, R. J. Rummel". The link is to a chapter in a book, "Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the Twentieth Century" by Valentino. The chapter does not assert that genocide is caused by any particular idiology but rather says that it occurs when power is in the hands of one person or a small number of people. A quote shows that the author's views are the opposite of the views given in this article, "Communism has a bloody record, but most regimes that have described themselves as communist or been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killing."

Another example of unencyclopedic use of sources in this article is this quote "Notably, the United States Congress has once referred to the mass killings as an unprecedented imperial Communist Holocaust." The anti-communist views of some United States congressmen is not objective evidence. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

To wit: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] and talk page diffs comprising most of [7] including comments such as the article being too long at 61K in length, multiple RfCs over a period of time, and an editor stating that I am incapable of editing in a discursive field. and the like.

This series of deletion requests did not take place in vacuo to be sure. And no editors have been attacked, nor have I intended to attack any. Collect (talk) 13:20, 14 April 2010 (UTC) Note: The material above my comments was edited well after my comments were made. Regarding the appended material above (not timestamped):

1. There were 18 !votes the last time. This is, in fact, vastly more than 95% of all AfDs generate.
2. I find no policy stating than anything other than guidleines and policy apply in AfD -- and no reference to praying that a "Wikipedia God" will override consensus otherwise.
3. If one looks at reasonings given in each AfD - the majority of those seeking deletion do so as "I don't like it" else the one on "Anti-communist mass killings" would be long gone, instead of having some edit it.
4. There are currently a large number of references in the article. If one wishes to dispute what was found at RS/N to be a "reliable source" then seek consensus on the article talk page. AfD is not the place for content disputes. Iwould, indeed, ask anyone closing this to look at the number who basically are using "I don't like it" as a basis for a !vote <g>. Collect (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

In response to User:Collect above, all of the comments favoring delete so far seem to cite Wikipedia guidelines. Characterizing them as mere "I don't like it," seems less than fair. BigK HeX (talk) 15:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Examine, please, the earlier AfDs. One delete was "what certain totalitarian regimes that called themselves communist did was democide." Another was "original research used to push an anti-communist POV" "all aimed at advancing a particular anti-communist POV" " this article is pretty much propaganda" and so on. (I can cite the full 1/3 of "delete" opinions, if one wishes). Actually more than a third of all "deletes" were ones based on the article being "anti-communist" or "right wing." Consider therefore the one on "Anti-communist mass killings" which was promoted by POV arguments <g>. And several based on the originator of the article being "banned" and seeking to speedily delete everything.

• Comment. There is presently a dispute, which highlights the point that I stated earlier about how editors can't even agree what the article should be about. This particular dispute revolves around whether the article should cover Communist governments or communist governments (and I'm sure this argument has been raised previously). IMO, the end result of these wranglings is that the sourcing is drawn into question since basic disputes remain unresolved, and throughout it all we remain with an article which is unencyclopedic, IMO. BigK HeX (talk) 13:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• • • Millions read Wikipedia, so 18 votes is not an impressive number. The criticism of the "sources" of the article is based on facts, not opinion. The sources with good academic reputation do not say what the article claims they say. I've given a quote above. A major source that agrees with the article, Rummel, also claims (according to his Wikipedia article) that "Obama is seeking to destroy liberal democracy in the United States" and, writing about Edward Kennedy, claims that by opposing the Vietnam War, "the post-war blood of millions is on Kennedy's hands". These are not mainstream views. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• • • • Eh? I just checked well over four hundred sixty AfDs recently -- of them the MEDIAN number of !votes was 4. The average (mean) was 5. Out of 460 AfDs, one and only one had 27 !votes, 1 had 16, 3 had 10 to 12 !votes. 18! votes on any AfD makes it into the 99.8 percentile or better. As for your concern about a source being RS or not -- note that the place to do that is at RS/N, not at AfD. In fact, questioning a single source (out of many) is not even commonsense as an argument for deletion of an article. And if you can ever show me where "millions" follow AfDs, I would like to cite you on the strategy discussions ongoing at meta <g>. Collect (talk) 14:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC) updated figures Collect (talk) 15:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per Collect, Termer. Reliable and independent sources have substantial coverage of mass killings of noncompabants under Communist regimes, satisfying WP:N. Edison (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per BigK Hex. That an article with a title that references "killings" lacks a unifying framework such that it makes no distinction between actual mass murder/genocide and famine that occurred as a result of communist policy is appalling. I say "per BigK Hex" because there is a ton of good information in this article that could be merged elsewhere. Frankly, almost everything in the article is valid. The topic, however, is a disaster of multiple interpretations and literally no unifying academic framework for analysis. WP:COATRACK, certainly, but WP:SYNTH most significantly. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 17:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Obvious Keep A perfectly real field of study with extensive journalistic and academic coverage. Just ask Robert Conquest, the British historian who built much of his career on of this precise topic. The article is also well sourced and clearly notable. Just because a topic is controversial or attracts some behavior that causes us, as editors, some headache is no reason to delete it. As a matter of fact the aggressive and inappropriate manner in which this article is repeatedly dragged to unsuccessful AfDs would incline me to say that it warrants protection from what increasingly appears to be ideologically motivated attempts at removing a legitimate article. TomPointTwo (talk) 17:25, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I would like to point out that there is not a single delete vote here that argues for deletion on the basis of the topic being "controversial" or "causes headache." ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 17:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Actually, Conquest did not write about mass killings under Communist regimes, he wrote about the Red terror, the Holodomor and the Great purge in the Soviet Union. He treated these as separate subjects and did not develop a theory of mass killings under Communist regimes. We should not put together a group of events and create an article when no one else has. Notice that Google scholar returns zero hits for the topic.[8] The Four Deuces (talk) 18:47, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

That is only because the article name was forced into awkward middle-of-the road solution, largely by yourself. Maybe it is time to move the article back to its original name, which gets plenty of matches from all Books, Scholar and web searches? --Sander Säde 19:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not that easy, don't you think we've already tried that? --TIAYN (talk) 19:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Sander Säde, I voted against the move and here is how I expressed it at the time:

Since there is no generally agreed concept of "Mass killings under Communist regimes" re-naming the article will open it to synthesized concepts and it will never gain good article status. The term "killing", unlike terms like genocide, does not even imply human agency. People can be killed in earthquakes for example. Besides there is not one incident in this article that is not or should be covered elsewhere. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[9]

The Four Deuces (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep Millions of documented killings clearly passes WP:UNDUE, it easily passes WP:FRINGE and WP:COATRACK. The only area I could see any possible argument is WP:NPOV, but then the same argument would apply to a AfD debate for The Holocaust. - PlainSight (talk) 23:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - useful article, obviously passing WP:UNDUE Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. The topic of the large-scale killings that have occurred under several Communist regimes in the twentieth century, why they occurred, what their commonalities are, and what their differences are is a notable subject discussed in several reliable, secondary, academic sources, four of which I quote and cite below for the benefit of skeptical editors. Because there are multiple labels for the events collectively in the sources, and because the original title was not considered neutral, the current title is descriptive (using a phrase, "mass killings", from one of the main sources) and a section is provided to explain all other terminology that is used. Despite existing for less than one year (not five as the nominator wrote above), the article is extensively sourced. Discussion is currently under way to improve it further. The article does not violate WP:COATRACK because it is about exactly what it claims to be about: mass killings under Communist regimes. The article does not violate WP:UNDUE because it is weighted similarly to the sources in focusing on the big three: the USSR, China, and Cambodia. Every attempt has been made to maintain WP:NPOV, including changing the title. The article does not violate WP:POVFORK because there was never a main article from which this one branched and because the article is written neutrally and does not push one explanation over another. (Some editors have thought about creating such a parent article into which this can be merged, but I don't think that would be a good idea because the article as it exists describes a distinct and notable topic which deserves and can support its own page. It's also fairly long. Merging it into an article such as Mass killings in the twentieth century would either make that article much too long or involve losing much of this one. The parent article could certainly be created, but it wouldn't mean that this one should be deleted.) The article does not violate WP:FRINGE because of the academic nature of the sources upon which it is based. The following are excerpts from four such sources with which I am familar, quoted at length here to put to rest the notion that the topic is an invention or a synthesis of "bits and pieces of different things":

• "Communist regimes have been responsible for this century's most deadly episodes of mass killing. Estimates of the total number of people killed by communist regimes range as high as 110 million. In this chapter I focus primarily on mass killings in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia - history's most murderous communist states. Communist violence in these three states alone may account for between 21 million and 70 million deaths. Mass killings on a smaller scale also appear to have been carried out by communist regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa." ..."Communism has a bloody record, but most regimes that have described themselves as communist or have been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killing. In addition to shedding light on why some communist states have been among the most violent regimes in history, therefore, I also seek to explain why other communist countries have avoided this level of violence." ..."I argue that radical communist regimes have proven such prodigious killers primarily because the social change they sought to bring about have resulted in the sudden and nearly complete material and political dispossession of millions of people. These regimes practiced social engineering of the highest order. It is the revolutionary desire to bring about the rapid and radical transformation of society that distinguishes radical communist regimes from all other forms of government, including less violent communist regimes and noncommunist, authoritarian governments."

- Benjamin Valentino, Assistant Professor of Government at Dartmouth College, in a chapter called "Communist Mass Killings: The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia" in his book "Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the Twentieth Century", published by Cornell University Press.

• "All accounts of 20th-century mass murder include the Communist regimes. Some call their deeds genocide, though I shall not. I discuss the three that caused the most terrible human losses: Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia. These saw themselves as belonging to a single socialist family, and all referred to a Marxist tradition of development theory. They murderously cleansed in similar ways, though to different degrees. Later regimes consciously adapted their practices to the perceived successes and failures of earlier ones. The Khmer Rouge used China and the Soviet Union (and Vietnam and North Korea) as reference societies, while China used the Soviet Union. All addressed the same basic problem - how to apply a revolutionary vision of a future industrial society to a present agrarian one. These two dimensions, of time and agrarian backwardness, help account for many of the differences." ..."Ordinary party members were also ideologically driven, believing that in order to create a new socialist society, they must lead in socialist zeal. Killings were often popular, tha rank-and-file as keen to exceed killing quotas as production quotas. The pervasive role of the party inside the state also meant that authority structures were not fully institutionalized but factionalized, even chaotic, as revisionists studying the Societ Union have argued. Both centralized control and mass party factionalism were involved in the killings." ..."This also made for Plans nurtured by these regimes that differed from those envisioned in my sixth thesis. Much of the Communist organization of killing was more orderly than that of the ethnonationalists. Communists were more statist. But only the Plans that killed the fewest people were fully intended and occurred at early stages of the process. There is no equivalent of the final solution, and the last desperate attempt to achieve goals by mass murder after all other Plans have failed. The greatest Communist death rates were not intended but resulted from gigantic policy mistakes worsened by factionalism, and also somewhat by callous or revengeful views of the victims. But - with the Khmer Rouge as a borderline case - no Communist regime contemplated genocide. This is the biggest difference between Communist and ethnic killers: Communists caused mass deaths mainly through disastrous policy mistakes; ethnonationalists killed more deliberately."

- Michael Mann, UCLA sociologist, in a chapter called "Communist Cleansing: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot" from his book "The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing" published by Cambridge University Press.

• "Dynamics of destruction/subjugation were also developed systematically by twentieth-century communist regimes, but against a very different domestic political background. The destruction of the very foundations of the former society (and consequently the men and women who embodied it) reveals the determination of the ruling elites to build a new one at all costs. The ideological conviction of leaders promoting such a political scheme is thus decisive. Nevertheless, it would be far too simplistic an interpretation to assume that the sole purpose of inflicting these various forms of violence on civilians could only aim at instilling a climate of terror in this 'new society'. In fact, they are part of a broader whole, i.e. the spectrum of social engineering techniques implememted in order to transform a society completely. There can be no doubt that it is this utopia of a classless society which drives that kind of revolutionary project. The plan for political and social reshaping will thus logically claim victims in all strata of society. And through this process, communist systems emerging in the twentieth century ended up destroying their own populations, not because they planned to annihilate them as such, but because they aimed to restructure the 'social body' from top to bottom, even if that meant purging it and recarving it to suit their new Promethean political imaginaire." ..."'Classicide', in counterpoint to genocide, has a certain appeal, but it doesn't convey the fact that communist regimes, beyond their intention of destroying 'classes' - a difficult notion to grasp in itself (what exactly is a 'kulak'?) - end up making political suspicion a rule of government: even within the Party (and perhaps even mainly within the Party). The notion of 'fratricide' is probably more appropriate in this regard. That of 'politicide', which Ted Gurr and Barbara Harff suggest, remains the most intelligent, although it implies by contrast that 'genocide' is not 'political', which is debatable. These authors in effect explain that the aim of politicide is to impose total political domination over a group or a government. Its victims are defined by their position in the social hierarchy or their political opposition to the regime or this dominant group. Such an approach applies well to the political violence of communist powers and more particularly to Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea. The French historian Henri Locard in fact emphasises this, identifying with Gurr and Harff's approach in his work on Cambodia. However, the term 'politicide' has little currency among some researchers because it has no legal validity in international law. That is one reason why Jean-Louis Margolin tends to recognise what happened in Cambodia as 'genocide' because, as he points out, to speak of 'politicide' amounts to considering Pol Pot's crimes as less grave than those of Hitler. Again, the weight of justice interferes in the debate about concepts that, once again, argue strongly in favour of using the word genocide. But those so concerned about the issue of legal sanctions should also take into account another legal concept that is just as powerful, and better established: that of crime against humanity. In fact, legal scholars such as Antoine Garapon and David Boyle believe that the violence perpetrated by the Khmer Rouge is much more appropriately categorised under the heading of crime against humanity, even if genocidal tendencies can be identified, particularly against the Muslim minority. This accusation is just as serious as that of genocide (the latter moreover being sometimes considered as a subcategory of the former) and should thus be subject to equally severe sentences. I quite agree with these legal scholars, believing that the notion of 'crime against humanity' is generally better suited to the violence perpetrated by communist regimes, a viewpoint shared by Michael Mann."

- Jacques Semelin, professor of political science and research director at CERI-CNRS in Paris and founder of the Online Encyclopedia of Mass Violence, in his chapters "Destroying to Subjugate: Communist regimes: Reshaping the social body" and "Destroying to eradicate: Politicidal regimes?" in his translated book "Purify and Destroy: The Political Uses of Massacre and Genocide" published in english by Columbia University Press.

• "The modern search for a perfect, utopian society, whether racially or ideologically pure is very similar to the much older striving for a religiously pure society free of all polluting elements, and these are, in turn, similar to that other modern utopian notion - class purity. Dread of political and economic pollution by the survival of antagonistic classes has been for the most extreme communist leaders what fear of racial pollution was for Hitler. There, also, material explanations fail to address the extent of the killings, gruesome tortures, fantastic trails, and attempts to wipe out whole categories of people that occurred in Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia. The revolutionary thinkers who formed and led communist regimes were not just ordinary intellectuals. They had to be fanatics in the true sense of that word. They were so certain of their ideas that no evidence to the contrary could change their minds. Those who came to doubt the rightness of their ways were eliminated, or never achieved power. The element of religious certitude found in prophetic movements was as important as their Marxist science in sustaining the notion that their vision of socialism could be made to work. This justified the ruthless dehumanization of their enemies, who could be suppressed because they were 'objectively' and 'historically' wrong. Furthermore, if events did not work out as they were supposed to, then that was because class enemies, foreign spies and saboteurs, or worst of all, internal traitors were wrecking the plan. Under no circumstances could it be admitted that the vision itself might be unworkable, because that meant capitulation to the forces of reaction. The logic of the situation in times of crisis then demanded that these 'bad elements' (as they were called in Maoist China) be killed, deported, or relegated to a permanently inferior status. That is very close to saying that the community of God, or the racially pure volksgemeinschaft could only be guaranteed if the corrupting elements within it were eliminated (Courtois et al. 1999)."

- Daniel Chirot, Professor of International Studies and Sociology at the University of Washington, and Clark R. McCauley, Professor of Psychology at Bryn Mawr College and Director of the Solomon Asch Center for Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict at the University of Pennsylvania, in the chapter "Why Genocides? Are they different now than in the past?: The four main motives leading to mass political murder" in their book "Why Not Kill Them All?: The Logic and Prevention of Mass Political Murder", published by Princeton University Press.