Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

Review of Manual of Style (dates and numbers)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This page is currently undergoing a review to ensure it forms a relevant and effective part of the Manual of Style. Please add review comments below along with notes of any improvement actions taken during the review.

"Manual of Style" or "Style Manual"?

Why use three words when two words would do? I propose that we change the names to Style Manual. Michael Glass (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

This came up in a related discussion fairly recently on the main MoS talk page; I think the current name was the most popular. But should you wish to pursue the question further, I suggest raising it there rather than on a subpage, where fewer editors may be aware and contribute. PL290 (talk) 08:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Role within the MoS

Questions which may highlight issues. Does this page fulfil a recognized and necessary role within the MoS? Is there a role conflict with any other MoS page?

Review comments

Relationship with other MoS pages

Questions which may highlight issues. Does this page have a clear identity in relation to other MoS pages? While a reader is obtaining guidance from this page, is it clear to the reader where to go for more general, and more specific, guidance related to its topic?

Review comments

• Those considering such questions should keep in mind that there are usually ongoing discussions on the main MoS talk page about reorganizing the MoS. Any suggestions made here would do well to take the wider context of those discussions into account. PL290 (talk) 08:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Effectiveness of guidance

Questions which may highlight issues. Is the prose clear and concise? Does the guidance given reflect consensus?

Review comments

Size and structure

Questions which may highlight issues. Is this page too large to be manageable, or too small to be meaningful as a page in its own right? Should it be restructured? Should it be merged with another page?

Review comments

It's fine large. There are two American ane one UK style guide which are at or over 1,000 pages. They are meant to be comprehensive. Many others point to them (Chicago and Oxford are two). Wikipedia's style manual will necessarily be lengthy to be comprehensive as well.

I recommend the addition of a typography section. Chicago and the American Medical Association's style guide (984 and 1032 pages respectively) both have chapters on typography and design. Wikipedia's style manual doesn't yet—instead spreading design and typography topics throughout. They should be consolidated. --Airborne84 (talk) 14:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Duplication of detail

Questions which may highlight issues. Is any detail here also present on any other MoS page? Are the two in step? Should the detail be confined to one place, and only summarized at the other? Should transclusion be considered?

Review comments

• Some cases of duplication at same level of detail as main MoS. One example is the section on non-breaking spaces, but I think there are probably others. The main MoS should probably not repeat such detail, but provide a summary along with a link to this page. Currently the two are not in step regarding the nbsp detail. PL290 (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Comparing the non-breaking-space guidance on this page with that in the main MoS, each has a similarly detailed list of bullet points. The main MoS already includes a See also link to the section on this page, so unless anyone objects, I propose to remove that detail from the main MoS, leaving just the link and the one statement that currently starts its bullets: "Use a non-breaking space (also known as a hard space) to prevent the end-of-line displacement of elements that would be awkward at the beginning of a new line." PL290 (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Agree. While you're at it, I would remove one of the links from this page: "See also: ... Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Non-breaking spaces". If you're already looking at the detailed version on this page, I don't know why you would want to click the link; after the change described above, you would be rereading a one-sentence summary. Art LaPella (talk) 21:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
      •  Done PL290 (talk) 15:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
        • Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave the detailed advice at MOS rather than MOSNUM, given that (e.g.) the point about quotation marks has nothing to do with dates and numbers? A. di M. (talk) 18:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
          • Funnily enough, the point about quotation marks was absent from the version of detail that was at the main MoS. Nothing new's been brought here. Seems best to keep all the detail in one place, and since a very great deal of it is to do with numbers, this page is still the better one as far as I can see. PL290 (talk) 19:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
• The same is true in regard to units of measurement. MOS and MOSNUM have policies that are almost identical but it would probably be better if there was only one policy. Michael Glass (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes. I suggest we remove the detail that's on the main MoS page, leaving only the link to this page. PL290 (talk) 12:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
    • I suggest that the section on units of measure in WP:MOS be replaced with:

The use of units of measurement is guided by the following principles:

• Avoid ambiguity: Aim to write so you cannot be misunderstood.
• Familiarity: The less readers have to look up definitions, the easier it is to be understood.
• International scope: Wikipedia is not country-specific; apart from some regional or historical topics, use the units in most widespread use worldwide for the type of measurement in question. The details of how that is achieved and guidance on the correct useage of units of measure is in WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers).

Apart from the last sentence, this text is already in that article. Martinvl (talk) 15:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

A less scanty summary should be possible, such as this. A. di M. (talk) 16:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be more than happy with that, at least as a start point. My only comment is to repeat what I was taught many years ago when I had a stint doing some technical authoring for DEC (Digital Computer Corporation) - each heading must have at least one paragraph in the lead before subsidiary headings are added. Martinvl (talk) 16:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm ... I do like the idea of separating the more esoteric, specialist concerns from the everyday ones, but I think it's a mistake to equate that with separating the summary from the detail. The less scanty summary, by repeating actual detail, means that the main MoS reader, finding they do in fact want the esoteric bit, must wade through much of the same detail again in order to find it. Also, the repeated detail will inevitably get out of step (as witness what happens currently where detail is repeated from one part of the MoS to another). So I prefer Martinvl's suggested summary, which allows all the detail to be kept together in one place, on this page. But it would certainly be helpful to put the specialist concerns in a separate list following the everyday ones. PL290 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be good to examine the wording of both MOS and MOSNUM in detail and choose the better wording where they differ. Despite their great similarity there are some differences, and some are significant. Michael Glass (talk) 12:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Other

Review comments

Canadian date formats. Currently the guide indicates both American and UK date formats are acceptable. That is not the case. The Government has a preferred short and long format as does the Canadian Press and most post-secondary institutions. The American long format is the format of preference. Short format is quickly converting to YYYY-MM-DD and occasionally YYYY-MMM-DD on government forms. The ambiguity of the policy has created lengthy debates on several articles within the Canada project. See Talk:Victoria Day‎ for one recent example. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

These discussions were over whether the articles should have been converted from one format to another. They did not reflect a desire to re-open debate over what has been a long-standing consensus to accept both formats. --Ckatz^chat_spy 06:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. That's why we need to set a single policy to avoid having people pick-and-choose (and wilfully change formats as was the case in both of the articles I have been working on) which is best. The idea that both US and UK formats are acceptable is not borne by fact but by a few pushy editors such as we have seen on those talk pages. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, that is your personal opinion; this discussion would suggest otherwise. --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

No an opinion would be "this is what I feel". My statement is that we need a single policy. My statement is that Month Day, Year is the format used by Canadian Press is a fact. That it's the format used by most universities is a fact. That it's the format used by the government is a fact. That you prefer Day Month Year is a fact (as you've gone on record). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

"We need to set a single policy to avoid having people pick-and-choose which is best" is your personal opinion, which the majority of editors disagreed with the last time something similar was brought up. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I could see how you, as one of the problem editors who hides behind this ambiguity, would like it to remain ambiguous. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Walter, please avoid such comments; you only weaken your argument by insulting other editors. --Ckatz^chat_spy 17:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

So you're commenting on the editor to tell me to stop commenting on the editor. Interesting. I merely pointed-out that MIESIANIACAL has used the wording of current policy to apply his preferred formatting. If any of this is libellous, please let me know, but it's all documented so what I'm saying is correct. It's certainly not an insult. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

What in the world is going here? We don't need yet another unclear and convoluted attempt at some kind of unneeded and uncessary reform, with template clutter on top of that! I won't archive this, but I'm removing that horrifying banner. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It is necessary since there is a clear preference for one style and we are waffling on it because of a few vocal editors. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

If the SSG proposal was accepted the Canadian exception could be handled far better at least in my opinion Gnevin (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

To that end I would like to end the "perfectly acceptable" argument that has been used by both MIESIANIACAL and Ckatz when debating the Victoria Day format change. I would like to create a list of institutions in Canada where the American format is acceptable and where the U.K. format is acceptable. We would simply provide links to their standards so that evidence and not personal opinion of what is and isn't acceptable can be presented. Where would a good place to create a page or sub-page be? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Depending on length .Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles) or Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles)/dates if very long Gnevin (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Before it goes "live", it should be hashed out on the talk page. Given what has been expressed so far, I'm really not comfortable with such a list being written straight into the guideline. --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see your comfort as being a guideline for Wikipedia, but I understand your concern. I don't think anything is being taken "live". This is simply a list to indicate what current date formats are accepted in Canada. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Before another MoS holy war gets rolling too far, a few facts:

• Strong consensus from a recent straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#Date format: Towards consistency: M D Y or D M Y ? backs the existing WP:DATEVAR statement on Canadian subjects;

• Mu (negative). That was short format. We are discussing long format. ----WG

• Walter Görlitz's statements about "The American long format is the format of preference" is one big ^{[citation needed]} and debatable as follows...

• Already given at talk:Victoria Day. Preference by Canadian Press. ----WG

• Government usage is demonstrably inconsistent - while American formats are seen, international formats are also frequently seen at such sites as Environment Canada, PM, CRTC, DND

• Mu (negative) again. Short format, yes. Long format never. ----WG

• Other style guides such as The Canadian Style accept both long formats [1]

• Finally a salient point. ----WG

• Newspaper-based styles such as the Canadian Press guides should not be considered reliable nor be given much weight - Wikipedia is not a newspaper for one thing, and Canadian newspapers actually used American spelling until the 1990s (The Globe and Mail began the trend away from that in October 1990);

• While not a newspaper, newspapers use style guides and hence it does apply here. ----WG

• Academic usage is not consistent e.g. UVic; University of Toronto Press books tend to avoid American format;

In conclusion, the "preference" is debatable, various date formats have usage in Canada, there is no evidence that the edit wars are a pandemic (at least not beyond a few indicated cases), and consensus does not support any changes to the existing WP:DATEVAR/WP:RETAIN statements with respect to Canadian subjects. Dl2000 (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit wars are not the issue. Editors going in and changing the format and then stating that it should not be changed citing MoS and other issues is. There is no harm in discussing it provided that it doesn't become a holy war or VHS/Beta or Windows/Mac/Linux battle. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Walter, sorry, but your post was really hard to read as originally entered. It was difficult to tell what was from you, and what was from Dl2000. If you really feel it is necessary to weave your comments like that, could you please sign the individual comments so that readers can tell who is saying what? --Ckatz^chat_spy 06:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

They're indented individually. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I have created Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#List of date formats used. I don't have access to the CP style guide but references seems to imply that it is Month Date, Year for long date format and mm/dd/yyyy for short date. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Ending this review

This review has been open for a couple of weeks now, and has generated discussion of a number of areas. There are issues of duplication of detail between this page and other MoS pages; consensus was achieved to remove this duplication in one area, and this has been done. If anyone wishes to make further specific proposals as part of this review, or respond further to existing points, please do so now. Once this review is archived, please re-raise any unresolved matters as and when required, either on this talk page or the main MoS one as appropriate. PL290 (talk) 21:07, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:Start date and others

Templates like {{start date}} and {{start date and age}} have MD,Y date format by default which is actually used only in the United States and Canada. Since Wikipedia is an international encyclopaedia, I suggest the default format should be DMY. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 11:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The argument is reasonable, but only if you're willing to change the ones that should be MDY. I lean toward making the absence of default deprecated. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Prove that the vast majority of editors who placed the template intended the day month year format, and changing the default will produce the appearance that the editors actually intended to produce. If you can't provide this proof, leave the default alone. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:42, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

To ask for something that is virtually unprovable in support of a minority point of view is not a strong argument. What would be more realistic is to debate if the default option is confusing, which it is. That would be a good place to start. Glider87 (talk) 23:21, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Which format is in the majority is irrelevant to the concept of changing the default. A bunch of editors used the template. We must assume good faith and suppose they looked at their edit either in a preview, or after they made it, and were satisfied with the result. It is wrong to make a change to the template that changes the appearance that was implicitly approved by the editor who placed the template, unless we are sure the editor created an inappropriate format. Since there is no way to be sure all those editors made format mistakes, we must leave their work alone. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:20, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Milk

I changed the use of UK pints in respect of milk to bottled milk on grounds that milk is usually sold in the supermarkets in 1, 2, 4 and 6 pint containers, but farmers subsidies are calculated per litre. Martinvl (talk) 07:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Policy should be world-wide in scope rather than just US and Commonwealth centred.

At the moment, the policy refers to the US, the UK and Commonwealth countries. I think it would be better to give guidance more generally, Unfortunately, a previous proposal [2] got no-where, but I still want to work out a wording that would be generally acceptable.

The present wording reads:

• • For topics strongly associated with a given place or time, put the most appropriate units first.
    • US articles generally put United States customary units first.
    • UK articles more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts. These include:
      • Miles for distances, miles per hour for road speeds and miles per imperial gallon for fuel economy
      • Feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight measurements
      • Imperial pints for draught beer/cider
      • See also Metrication in the United Kingdom and the style guides of British publications such as that of the Times Online (under "Metric").
    • Articles concerning Commonwealth countries in Africa, Asia and Australasia generally put metric units first.

I would like to suggest the following revision:

• • For topics strongly associated with a given place or time, put the most appropriate units first.
    • Articles about most countries generally put metric units first.
    • US articles generally put United States customary units first.
    • UK articles more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts. These include:
      • Miles for distances, miles per hour for road speeds and miles per imperial gallon for fuel economy
      • Feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight measurements
      • Imperial pints for draught beer/cider
      • See also Metrication in the United Kingdom and the style guides of British publications such as that of the Times Online (under "Metric").

My reasons are as follows:

• The emphasis changes from the Commonwealth to a more world-wide focus.
• Focusing on the US, the UK and the Commonwealth and excluding the rest of the world is questionable in an encyclopedia.
• The position of the clause is more appropriate at the beginning because the first clause covers most of the world.
• If the clause on the US comes first the policy is open to the criticism that it is too centred on the United States or on English-speaking countries generally.
• It is more acceptable to have the dot points stepped in one direction. It makes for clearer, easier reading and it looks better.

Other points are as follows:

• The wording remains descriptive rather than prescriptive. It describes how articles are rather than prescribing how they should be.
• The other wording is unchanged.
• This is draft wording and is open to improvement.

I hope that this time we will be able to come up with wording that reflects the world-wide nature of the encyclopedia while continuing to give the respect that is due to local usage. Michael Glass (talk) 01:55, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

While the English Wikipedia should maintain a world-wide view about subject matter, matters of style rightly focus on English-speaking countries because that is the language the articles are written in. By coincidence, the countries that make the greatest use of non-metric units also speak English, but if there happened to be a country that made a great deal of use of some local units that would not be intelligible to English speakers, we would put metric first for that article because otherwise our readers wouldn't be able to understand it. Similarly, in an article about Germany, we would observe English capitalization conventions, not German. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Policy should reflect that most of our readers are from the US and Commonwealth.English Wikipedia page views by country. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 02:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Matters of style would rightly apply to all articles. In this particular case the guidelines cover articles on the US, the UK and Commonwealth countries but fail to cover other countries. We therefore have the anomalous situation where there is policy for

• India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not China, Russia, Thailand and Indo-China
• The United States and Canada, but not Latin America
• Malaysia but not Indonesia
• Mozambique but not Angola
• The UK and Malta but not Continental European countries

and so on.

My proposed change is designed to remedy this anomaly. It does not affect what the guidelines say about the US and the Commonwealth, but it extends this policy to other countries who do not happen to be covered at the moment. Then policy would cover all countries (almost 200) and not just the 55 countries that are covered at present.

I hope that this answers the concerns that have been expressed. Michael Glass (talk) 04:11, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

What you propose has exactly the same problems as the last time you proposed almost exactly the same wording a mere seven weeks ago. None of them has been addressed. Yet another example of your continual insistence that we perpetually go through exactly the same discussion. Pfainuk talk 06:22, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The only problem is that you lump Canada in with the US and Canada is officially metric. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Unnecessary repetition. The first paragraph of the section of the guideline (not policy) reads: "Except in the cases mentioned below, put the units first that are in the most widespread use in the world. Usually, these are International System of Units (SI) units and non-SI units accepted for use with SI; but there are various exceptions..." That petty well covers the rest of the world without the need for repetition. Commonwealth countries are covered specifically to make it clear that they should be treated separately from the UK. _wjemather^bigissue 08:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

What others said. It's already covered, and this just a repetition of what you just said a few weeks ago. Please drop the issue. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 09:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

In that case the entire clause about Commonwealth countries is redundant and should be removed. Having it remain there is just misleading. Would anyone have any objections if I removed it? 122.106.23.32 (talk) 10:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

There is some redundancy yes, but it is warranted, and it certainly isn't misleading. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not think it is particularly redundant or misleading. As I stated, it provides a necessary clarification regarding countries that officially used the Imperial system in the not too distant past, and in fact some of which still use various Imperial measures in everyday life. _wjemather^bigissue 10:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there not a case to rearrange the rules as follows:

• Scientific articles use ...
• Economic articles use ...
• Technical articles use ...
• ...
• All other articles use SI apart from articles that have not already been convered and that have a strong link with the following countries:

• United States where customary units may be used
• United Kingdom where the following units may be used:

• miles - ...
• feet and inches - ...
• - ...

• Republic of Ireland - As for the United Kingdom, except that kilometres are used in place of miles
• Canada - [or are Canadian articles be totally metric?]

This will remove the need to mention the Commonwealth. It might also be possible to merge the Irish and British use of units of measure if the use of miles is restricted to those roads and railway lines that are signposted in mile. Martinvl (talk) 11:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The instruction is "For topics strongly associated with a given place or time, put the most appropriate units first." The following sub-bullets about the US and the UK are supposed to be examples. If someone doesn't know which units are the "most appropriate" in an article about Kazakhstan or Liberia, probably they oughtn't be writing such an article in the first place. (But I would support having something more explicit than "most appropriate", for example "put first the unit typically used in that place or time".) And a long list of items such as Martinvl's could exhaust the reader before they even figure out what the general principle behind them is. (If you had to give guitar string gauges in an article about an Italian guitarist, you would give them in the unit normally used in Italy to measure guitar strings–namely, in inches. Then, if there were a country in which guitar string gauges are normally given in an unit other than the inch, you would follow the gauge in inches with a conversion in that unit, so that readers from that country could understand; but it turns out that this is not the case. But with a long list of cases the reader could be unable to see the forest for the trees and assume that the usual rule to use metric units applies because there's no exception about music-related articles.) A. di M. (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I would agree to that change in wording: from "put the most appropriate units first" to "put first the unit typically used in that place or time". It's what we mean, so it makes sense that it be what we say. Pfainuk talk 17:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No, "put the most appropriate units first" is too strong. The units used in a particular place or time may be too obscure for modern English-speaking readers to understand, so a balance must be struck. Factors to consider are:

• readers who view an article about a particular place and time are more likely to be familiar with that date and time
• the sources on a particular place and time may usually use the units that were common at that place and time
• the units used in a particular place and time might be too obscure for modern readers
• the conversion factors for units used in a particular place and time may be disputed; depending on whether the numbers used in an article are modern measurements or are transcribed from old sources, modern or old units may be more appropriate. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the biggest issue here is with the "or time" bit. You have a point: clearly we don't want to be trying to convert an article into some obscure unit from the tenth century that we can only reliably use on an order-of-magnitude basis. In those contexts, "most appropriate" is a better wording. In relatively modern contexts, however, where the units concerned are relatively well known and defined, I believe that saying "put first the unit typically used in that place or time" stands up, and is clearer than the current wording. It could perhaps be noted in addition to, rather than instead of, the "most appropriate unit" line. Pfainuk talk 20:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be fine with "For topics strongly associated with a given place, put first the unit typically used in that place". A. di M. (talk) 10:10, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Would there be any objection if I removed the words "or time"? The wording would then read:

For topics strongly associated with a given place, put the most appropriate units first.

Any comments? Michael Glass (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd give a clearer explanation than "most appropriate": for example, "typically used in that place". Also, I'd add "for example" to show that the US and the Commonwealth aren't supposed to cover all the world. (I'm going to do this; revert if you don't like it.) A. di M. (talk) 08:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I like it. It's crystal-clear and a definite improvement to the wording.Michael Glass (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

”Most appropriate” or “Most widely used” units?

I revoked the changes to the MoS because I do not think that the question of “most appropriate” or “most widely used” has been thought through carefully enough.

Firstly, Wikipedia is written for the benefit of its readers, not for the benefit of the residents of the area that is being described. If the units of measure used in the literature correspond to the expectation of the readers, then there will be no problem. If however this expectation does not hold, then the issue needs to be resolved. One of the aims of the MoS is to resolve this problem.

The English language version of Wikipedia is not only read by people whose native tuonge is English, but also by people for whom English is a second language, but who prefer to read the English language version because it is more comprehensive.

If an article describes the locality in general terms, then it is probable that the residents of that area would form the majority of the readers. This is almost certainly true of the United States and of the United Kingdom, but is probably not true of some remote islands. For example, Gough Island has a typical resident population of six – South African meteorologists - yet it get over 100 hits a day. In the case of Gough Island, the readers are almost certainly not the residents. Another example worth considering is Ulan Bator. Although the city has over a million residents and appears in Wikipedia in a large number of languages, the English language version appears to be the most comprehensive. Thus I would assume that a significant number of readers of that article would be readers for whom English is a second language.

I think that these example show that although the units of measure used in a locality might be the appropriate ones to use in a Wikipedia article, this is not always the case. For this reason I argue that the words “most appropriate” should be used rather than “most widely used”. The principal measure of “appropriateness” would be made by consulting the literature relating to the subject and deviating only if there is a good case to do so. Martinvl (talk) 15:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The fact is that in many cases you can find both literature using a unit and literature using a different unit. What should one do in those cases? (Also, without explicitly stating what the measure of appropriateness is, saying that you should use the most appropriate units is nearly a tautology: "most appropriate" indeed means "the ones you should use"!) A. di M. (talk) 16:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I would use the most appropriate units. For example, British road construction manuals use metric untis, but road atlases use imperial units. If the article on British roads is biased towards the technical aspects of the road, it would be appropriate to use metric units; but for distances between towns or cities, it would be appropriate to use imperial units (unless of course metric units are explicity used on the road signs). Martinvl (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

So would I. But being told to put "the most appropriate units" first doesn't help someone who doesn't know how to decide which units are the most appropriate. A. di M. (talk) 16:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

A. di M.'s point about people who don't know how to decide could be solved by adding an appropriate example or two to the existing examples about the US, UK, and Commonwealth. A perfect example would be some small non-English-speaking place that still uses local customary units that would be unfamiliar to most English-speakers. Due to the small size and language of the place, we could presume that most readers would not be able to understand the local units, so SI, Imperial, or US customary units would be more appropriate.

However, I don't know if such a place exists. It might be the case that SI, Imperial, and US customary units are the only contenders, and articles about any place that has never been affiliated with the US or the UK should list SI first. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Burmese units of measurement? On the other hand, any article about Burma is going to have much more serious issues than the choice of units of measurement, so I'd rather not use that example. A. di M. (talk) 17:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

This is actually a good example - are we writing the English version of Wikipedia for English-speaking or Burmese-speaking readers? If we are writing it for readers who prefer the English version - American, British, Australian, Indian, Dutch (nl:Myanmar is one third the length of Burma) then we should use international (ie SI) units first (as has been done). (BTW, between the mid-19th century and 1947 Burma was part of the British Empire). Martinvl (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, if the point is just who the readers of the English Wikipedia are, it turns out that most of them don't prefer metric units. Anyway, if the appropriate conversions are used, everyone can understand the measurement whether they are from America, Britain, Australia, India, or the Netherlands. A. di M. (talk) 10:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

About 63% of readers are from the United Kingdom or the United States, the rest are form totally metric countries. The United States figures might be inflated - how many users do so via corporate accounts that have .com addresses - bp.com for example? The remaining 37% are from countries that use metric units as their principal unit of measure, so lets not introduce mob rule - be selective about which articles appeal primarily to US readers, which apply to UK readers and which appeal to the world at large. We should bear in mind that whereas UK football fans might prefer imperial units if they want to find out the height of the Englan goal-keeper, British schoolchildren doing a school project will be expect to use metric units, while the business researcher needing a quick overview will also expect metric units as this will match the units that they have gleaned form other sources. Of course the football fans will not be looking at the same articles as the business researchers. Finally, if Wikipedia is an encyclopedia rather than a newspaper, what is wrong with repeating the units of measure used in good almanacs, be they Whitakers Almanac, the CIA World Factbook or Wisdens Cricketers almanac. That is why I prefer the use of the word Appropriate.

Citations for those statistics of usage? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerLanguageBreakdown.htm A. di M. (talk) 19:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. They can't be used as they are based on domain name not on IP address. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It says: "Share is the percentage of requesting ip addresses (out of the global total) which originated from this country". Seems reasonable to suggest that they are in fact based on IP address. Pfainuk talk 20:30, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Your claim that the US figure may be inflated does not appear to be backed up, and I think we have to accept the figures as they are.

Nobody is trying to demand the use non-metric units first in general; only where geographical, historical or other reasonable circumstances apply. I do not accept your absurd interpretation that "most appropriate" means or has ever meant that we should use metric units even when such units do not accord with local usage. We would not list tautological rule, to use metric units except in certain circumstances in which we use metric units, in this way. And why on earth would we list several examples that directly contradict this interpretation? I do not think it is much to ask for local usage to be respected in our unit choices on articles that are strongly tied to a specific country. This is not "mob rule", it's a reasonable accommodation to make, bearing in mind that nearly two thirds of our readership who live in countries where non-metric units form a common part of day-to-day life.

The best idea would be simply to repeat the language of the rule itself: "put the units first that are in the most widespread use in the country concerned". In historical circumstances, the same rule should apply where such a rule is reasonable, with other units to be used as appropriate otherwise. Pfainuk talk 20:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Spelling and metrication

The process of metrication has resulted in many units, such as the furlong, yard, foot (length), inch, and pound (mass) falling out of use in countries other than the United States. More precisely, these units have fallen out of use in law and commerce because for the most part, they are not allowed on the labels of goods being sold and not used in statutes or regulations; it is difficult to judge the extent they are still used in general oral conversation. Since these units are still widely used in law and commerce in the United States and are less-used elsewhere, should we use US spelling (including "meter" rather than "metre"), date format, etc. in these articles about these units? Jc3s5h (talk) 17:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Does your proposal include overturning the existing WP:RETAIN policy? I can foresee a flurry of unwelcome and unnecessary changes if implemented. --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No, my proposal is that the metrication process is likely to trigger the "unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic" clause of the WP:RETAIN guideline when units fall out of use everywhere except the US. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

How will that time be identified, please? --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

All of the above measurements are still used outside of the US, often in sport or in non-scientific situations. The yard does not originate in the US, and it seems pointless to have different spellings of meter/metre especially when nearly the whole world uses the original spelling of metre. Bevo74 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not claim the units are not used at all outside the US, nor do I deny that they originated in the UK. But today they are used predominantly in the US, so they are more strongly associated with the US than with other countries.

As for the statement "it seems pointless to have different spellings of meter/metre especially when nearly the whole world uses the original spelling of metre", SI does not mandate the spelling of unit names, only the spelling of symbols. To see some of the various spellings for the meter, just click on some of the links to other-language Wikipedias on the left hand side of the window. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Moonraker asked "How will that time be identified, please?" I would say the time has arrived for furlong, foot, inch, and pound (mass). Yard and mile are not so clear; yard is still used on UK road signs and in association football (or so I'm told; I haven't been to the UK since 1970 and don't follow either kind of football). Miles are still used on UK road signs. In my view, when the unit becomes unusual in current written sources that are writing about the present day rather than historical events, and which are not writing about the US, then the unit is much more strongly associated with the US than elsewhere and if an article about the unit exits, it should use the US variety of English. The written sources to be considered should include product labels. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Britain has dual measures on product labels in many goods in supermarkets - including pounds and ounces. The foot and inch are still widely used in day-to-day life. Feet and inches are overwhelmingly the more common units used for measuring a person's height in the UK (hence being mentioned in the guideline). It's also common to measure the heights of hills in feet.

Roads and footpaths in the UK use either miles or yards depending on distance and context. They are only very rarely mixed - generally when describing the length of a marathon (26 miles, 385 yards). Furlongs are still used in horse racing, I believe, but not in any other context.

Association football is generally described in yards. Formally, the measurements are metric approximations to the distances in yards (for example, players have to remain 9.15 metres (10.01 yd) from a player taking a free kick), but in practice everyone in the UK uses yards. OTOH, cricket pitches are still defined in imperial units, I believe. Pfainuk talk 19:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The article on the foot has a significant amount of historic information, much of which predates 1776 (and even more predates 1828 when Webster published his dictionary). This is probably sufficient reason to enforce the WP:RETAIN policy. Martinvl (talk) 20:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that history would not be a deciding factor, in part because present-day usage outweighs historical origin in deciding what country a unit is strongly associated with, and also because the variety of English a person spoke in 1776 probably had more to do with exactly where in the UK the person's ancestors lived (perhaps depending on which London street the ancestors lived) and had little to do with whether the person was living in Britain or America. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:25, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I have not looked into the other articles mentioned above but I would claim that furlong passes MOS:TIES An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the English of that nation. Because while this is a well known unit of measure to the general public in the UK it is virtually unheard of in the united states. Not only that the first major edit to was it in British English on 17:49, 8 June 2004. We should stick with WP:RETAIN if MOS:TIES is in dispute as it has resolved many disagreements in wikipedia such as "Gasoline" → "Petrol". -- Phoenix (talk) 03:36, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

These units have strong historical ties to every English speaking country nor have they fully fallen out of use. Beer is sold in pints around the English speaking world. Canada might never fully metricate with a non-metric neighbour. UK roads are measured in miles. The units come from or at least via England even the gallons. So I'm not sure we have a strong case for US spelling across the board based on ties, not strong enough to counter the argument to retain current spelling. Of course if a unit has a particular tie (like the furlong has) then the argument is valid but are there any articles where this is a problem? JIMp _talk·cont 00:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Approximately/About

The guidelines rightly say to write approximately in full and not to write approx. However, there is a shorter, better word: about. I think the Manual of Style could suggest using about instead of approximately, perhaps like this:

• When part of a full sentence, write approximately in full or use about (e.g., write Earth's radius is approximately 6,400 kilometres, or Earth's radius is about 6,400 kilometres), not Earth's radius is approx. 6,400 kilometres or Earth's radius is ~ 6,400 kilometres.

What do others think? Michael Glass (talk) 06:22, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I would personally not use "about" with a measurement correct to within less than 1% like that one, but YMMV. A. di M. (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Quite, approximately is more correct when it comes to measurements. _wjemather^bigissue 11:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the way Michael Glass uses "approximately" and "about", but there is no need to mention this in the guideline. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to reposition two other dot points

Two other dot points in "Unit Conversions" would be better placed with the other points on presentation of units. They are these two:

• In a direct quotation, always keep the source units.
  • Conversions required for units cited within direct quotations should appear within square brackets in the quote.
  • Alternatively, you can annotate an obscure use of units (e.g. five million board feet of lumber) with a footnote that provides conversion in standard modern units, rather than changing the text of the quotation. See the style guide for citation, footnoting and citing sources.

I propose to move these two dot points. Are there any comments on this proposal? Michael Glass (talk) 00:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to add a new subheading and make the existing subheading heading more closely reflect the dot points under it

The section headed "Which units to use and how to present them" has two groups of dot points. The first group deals with which units to put first; the second group deals with how to present the units. Dealing with these two issues under one subheading is not as clear as it could be. I therefore propose to add a sub-subheading entitled How to present the units and to change the existing subheading to Which units to put first.

The reasons for this are:

• Inserting an extra heading makes both sections easier to find.
• Inserting an extra heading breaks the text into sections that are more readily understood.
• The layout is consistent with the sub-subheading on scientific and technical terms.

In addition

• The new headings are clearer and easier to follow, as each heading deals with just one subject.
• Dot points on which units to put first would be under "Which units to put first."
• Dot points on the presentation of units would be under "How to present the units."
• The new headings don't change the wording of any of the dot points.
• The only change is to the headings.

Are there any comments, suggestions or concerns about this proposal? Michael Glass (talk) 01:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Unneeded, the section is crystal clear. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to using bold divisions than headers (;Foobar rather ===Foobar===). This would prevent the TOC from growing unwiedly, which is my concern here, rather than opposition to the idea of emphasing the division. Of course, if others prefer headers, then I'll live with that. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, only the last three bullets aren't about which units to put first. Of these, the first one is redundant with the "Avoid ambiguities" below; the other two could be merged together, e.g. "Measurements should be accompanied by a proper citation of the source using a method described at the style guide for citation; if the unit put first isn't the one given in the source, the original unit be noted in the citation." Such a point could be then moved into "Unit conversions". So, this section will only be about which units to put first. I'll give it a try; everyone feel free to revert. A. di M. (talk) 15:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I've made several changes as follows:

• I have removed the phrase or time as the examples that followed were all based on place. Questions of time may be better dealt with elsewhere.
• I have followed up Headbomb's suggestion and inserted a bold division How to present the units This helps to clarify the layout without further lengthening the table of contents.
• I have put the citation advice into the presentation section, as it is about how to present figures rather than about unit conversions.
• I have put a short note with a redirection about ambiguous unit names
• There are two points about citation. The first one is to cite all measurements; the second one is about noting the original unit in the citation if it is not put first. As they are different, I think they may be better as two separate points.

I hope that these revisions are helpful. Michael Glass (talk) 03:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

MOS and MOSNUM

The Units of Measurement sections of MOS and MOSNUM are largely, but not completely identical in layout and wording. In many cases, MOSNUM is better but in some cases MOS has the better wording. One example is in the introduction. MOSNUM's wording is brief but cryptic whereas MOS's wording is longer but clearer, and better in getting the message across.

MOSNUM: If there is trouble balancing these bullets, consult other editors through the talk page and try to reach consensus.

MOS: In instances where these principles appear to conflict with one another, consult other editors on the article's talk page and try to reach consensus.

As the Manual of Style version is clearer and much easier to follow I propose to bring the wording over into MOSNUM. Any comments, suggestions or concerns? Michael Glass (talk) 05:17, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this might be the best wording:

In instances where these principles appear to conflict, consult other editors on the article's talk page and try to reach consensus.

It's shorter than the MOS version, but just as clear, and almost as concise as the MOSNUM version, but not as cryptic. Michael Glass (talk) 05:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

As the shorter version proposed above was challenged on MOS I decided to go with the longer version that is in MOS at the moment. Michael Glass (talk) 11:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Full vital dates vs. years

The previous discussion evidently was deemed cold by the archive bot. So I propose to edit as we seemed to roughly agree, and then perhaps add more clarification in the BIO MOS. That is, allow (1999–2222) or (January 1, 1999 – December 22, 2222) depending on if the full dates vs. years are relevant and not redundant. W Nowicki (talk) 20:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The days and months are seldom relevant enough to be put in the first sentence and typically only make the reader have to skip one more line of text only to know who the hell the subject of the article was. A. di M. (talk) 08:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I tend to disagree. It helps detect date vandalism if the dates appear both in the lede and the infobox. (It's more common for living or recently dead people than long-dead people, but I've seen it on a few people on my watch list.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the change for other reasons, but I'm sure consensus is against those, so I won't bring them up again. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure it is a "change" since my proposal is what seems to be in many articles, more like a clarification. Note I only advocate removing the details from the lead if they also appear in the body and the infobox. That is, they should appear at least twice, and three times if the article warrants it (lead is long enough). I have never seen date vandalism but work on more historic bios so you probably have a point for that class of people. Many historic people also might have a specific date of death well known but birth dates often are harder to pin down. W Nowicki (talk) 17:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

We need to clarify "redundant" in the MOS, then. I'm sure some would now create a bot to remove dates from the lede. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

MOS's advice on unnecessary vagueness

MOS gives the following advice on avoiding unnecessary vagueness:

Use accurate measurements whenever possible.

Vague	Precise
The wallaby is small.	The average male wallaby is 1.6 metres (63 in) from head to tail.
Prochlorococcus marinus is a tiny cyanobacterium.	The cyanobacterium Prochlorococcus marinus is 0.5 to 0.8 micrometres across.
The large oil spill stretched a long way down the Alaskan coast.	The oil spill that drifted down the Alaskan coast was 3 statute miles (5 km) long and 1,000 feet (300 m) wide.

Is this worth reproducing in MOSNUM? Michael Glass (talk) 13:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 06:25, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Question Concerning Dates

OK, I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I have been searching through guides and talk page archives for an answer to my question and to tell you the truth I am not about to go through pages upon pages of MoS holy wars to answer a simple question. Was consensus ever reached on whether the YYYY-MM-DD format is allowed in citations or not? I need to know whether I'm about to head over to Google and start a mass conversion of citation dates. Thanks to whoever can help me out. — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 18:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be consensus to allow YYYY-MM-DD format in citations on the basis that this is an area where space is limited, and that format is allowed where space is limited. There is no consensus as to whether the dates of publications may be in a different format from the retrieval date.

Also, some historical articles may cite dates where the citation date is given in a non-Gregorian calendar, and the YYYY-MM-DD format is not allowed for those. In such an article, for the sake of consistency, the YYYY-MM-DD format would have to be avoided altogether (again, there is no consensus about whether retrieval dates could be in YYYY-MM-DD format even when the rest are in a different format).

Please note that the phrase "start a mass conversion of citation dates" tends to get people's attention. Dates in an article with an established style should not be changed without consensus on the talk page. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's the latest RFC on the issue: Wikipedia:Mosnum/proposal on YYYY-MM-DD numerical dates. As for me, I typically use YYYY-MM-DD for retrieval dates– unless the article I'm editing already consistently uses another format for that purpose, and don't give the day and month of publication at all (unless there's a good reason to do so) so that the issue of consistency between different parts of a citation often doesn't arise at all. A. di M. (talk) 09:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Indian number names

The words "lakh" and "crore" appear quite often in articles about Indian related subjects. As a non-Indian I find it impedes understanding when I read sentences such as: "Since liberalization, the value of India's international trade has become more broad-based and has risen to Rs. 63,080,109 crores in 2003–04 from Rs.1,250 crores in 1950–51." (quoted from Economy of India). I think use of these (non universal English) terms should be discouraged. I'm fairly sure Indians who are fluent in English are quite familiar with "thousand", "hundred thousand" and "million". Roger (talk) 17:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

You can make the same argument about SI vs. Imperial measures—but we keep both around, because to use only one or the other tends to provoke disputes over national usage, rates of acceptance and facility of comprehension. The trouble is, Indians really do tend to express numbers that way, even if thinking or communicating in English. If you want to minimize confusion (at the expense of readability), include a conversion in parentheses. Ultimately, the governing content guideline is WP:ENGVAR, specifically the section about strong national ties to a topic, but also the "Opportunities for commonality" section. There may be a valid debate to be had about whether thousands-based digit grouping would be acceptable to our Indian readership—but I suspect because of the Western roots of most of our MOS editors, we might not be fully qualified to have that debate amongst ourselves. TheFeds 18:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

For currency conversion in particular, you can use {{INRConvert}} to handle the conversion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

First of all apoligies to User:JHunterJ - I was interupted when making my last edit and I appear to have messed up both his and my postings.

We must realise that India is the world's largest English-speaking country, even if it is a second language for a substantial number of its inhabitants - however many will use the English version of Wikipedia rather than the Hindi or other indigenous language version. Although Indian users are currently a small minority of Wikipedia users, the growth potential in India is huge. Since Wikipedia is an international medium, it must cater for all varities of English. We already have a number of regional manuals of style for various parts of the world. I would welocme one from India, though of course the rest of the Wikipedia community should check it to ensure that it is compatible. I would welcome guidance from the Indian community on matters such as when to use Bombay and when to use Mumbai. On the other hand, I would expect the authors of such an article to give guidance on how to use, and more importantly communicate to non-Indians, the meaning of the word such as lakh and crore. From a personal point of view, I would suggest a statement at the start of relevant articles that reads One lakh = 100,000; one crore = 10,000,000. This would avoid the need to convet every value as it is quoted. Martinvl (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)