Talk:Breslov

Photo of Breslov's "head"

The photo on this page identifies Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser as "The Head" of Breslov Hasidism. This is not correct. First of all, he is now deceased (died 1994). Second, there is no one "head" of Breslov Hasidism. There are several different groups of Breslov Hasidim today, with many leaders whom different Breslovers look up to for advice. This caption would better read something like, "Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a respected leader (but not the Rebbe) within Breslov Hasidism. Died 1994." I would have changed it myself but I don't know how to do captions yet. Please do so. (Posted by Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, webmaster at Hasidism.info, and a Breslover Hasid.)

Update: I figured out how to change the caption. (Rooster613 is Rabbi Gershom's ID here)

Rooster613 06:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)The full quote regarding Rebbe Nachman's opinion on the nature of a Tzaddik's soul is as follows. I am putting this here rather than on the page itself (where I did add the source and page ref.) because I feel it would clutter up the article to put it all there.

Nathan of Nemirov (Rebbe Nachman's personal secretary) wrote in Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom: "The Rebbe (i.e., Nachman) spoke out very strongly against those who thought that the main reason for a Tzaddik's great attainments was the high level of his soul. He insisted that this was not true, maintaining that it depends completely on good deeds (mitzvot)and effort. He was very specific in emphasizing this. He said, 'Every person can attain the highest level. It depends on nothing but your own free choice... For everything depends upon a multitude of deeds.'" (page 29) On the same page Rabbi Nathan also quotes Rebbe Nachman as saying that he was not automatically a Tzaddik because of his family background (as great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov), but only through his own efforts and "Devoting his entire being to the service of God." User:Rooster613

Na Nach Nachma

Perhaps a section should be put in on the N-Na-Nach-Namchma-Nachman.http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1172--PinchasC 13:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excellent idea! I will gladly do it (unless somebody else does first) but probably not until after Pesach. Maybe we should also have a separate page on Rabbi Odesser (who introduced the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman-m'Uman chant.) I have some bio info on him, and we already have a photo here. Rooster613 01:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is best that you do it, being that you seem to understand Breslov, and its customs, as opposed to somone else that will only write on what he sees and not on what really is.--PinchasC 01:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's finally done! Follow the link Na Nach Nachma to check it out. Re: use of the word mantra: I realize this is not an authentically Jewish term, but it has entered the English language, it describes the process, and there's a Wiki page on it. So it makes sense to use it here. Rooster613

Photo of Rebbe Nachman's grave

The photo that was added on 21 Sept is not how the grave looks today. This picture was probably taken before 1999. Yoninah 19:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The former caption read that this was how the grave looked "for over 50 years." That is also not accurate. At one time, there was a small white building for the pilgrims to pray in. This was later destroyed (by the Nazis?) The Breslov on the Internet site has a colorized photo of this building circa 1922. During the Communist regime, there was nothing so overt on the grave -- simply a flat, ground-level cement slab to mark where it was, and a rickety old wooden bench to sit on. This gave it the appearance of garden landscaping, to mark where the grave was. (It had been located after the Nazis destroyed the cemetery by finding the remains of the foundation of the building mentioned above, and preserved by the family whose house was later built on that land.) I have some old books and pamphlets with photos of this slab and bench. (Unfortunately, the pics are not in the common domain.) The lovely gravestone and embroidered covering was probably not added until after the fall of Communism in 1989. (Anybody know for sure?) It did look like this pic when I was there in 1997, so let's say "around 1997" for this pic caption, OK? Rooster613 12:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

Based on a book that is about to be published by Breslov Research Institute, the grave remained a slab of cement on the ground until 1991, when a low concrete monument was placed over it. In 1992, with the help of Reb Michel Dorfman, this monument was replaced by a marble one. The whole house was redesigned to incorporate the grave in 1999. So let's say this is how the grave looked in the 1990's. I hope to add significant detail about the grave, the house, and the whole story of how Rebbe Nachman's grave was rediscovered in the article about Uman, Ukraine. Yoninah 14:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Bratzlav or Breslau?

This article begans with the rather emphatic declaration that "Breslov is not Breslau or Bratzlav or Bratislava." However, someone is making redirects in other articles about Breslov personalities, to the effect that any mention of the town of "Breslov" redirects to "Bratslav." On the Bratslav page it says specifically that this is the town in which Rebbe Nachman lived and taught. Could someone please clear this up? If Breslov is not Bratslav, what is it? Remember that towns in Ukraine didn't have Jewish names to start with. Yoninah 11:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I just found this entry on the breslov.org (Breslov Research Institute) FAQ page: "Breslov is sometimes transliterated as Bratzlav or Braclav, and should not be confused with Bratislava in Czechoslovakia or Breslau in Germany"[1]. Based on this, I'm going ahead and changing the sentence in this article to associate Breslov with Bratslav. Yoninah 21:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Please distinguish the movement from the city

Until now, everyone's been writing "Breslov" whether they're referring to the hasidic dynasty or to the town. I just went through all the links to this page and make sure everything links to [Breslov (Hasidic Dynasty)]. All references to the city should read: [Bratslav|Breslov]. Thank you. Yoninah 16:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• • That's appropriate, but keep in mind that many Hasidim do use "Breslov" for both the movement and the town itself. Also, it was primarily Martin Buber, writing in German, who made the mistake of calling him "Nachman von Bratzlaw" (W=V sound in German) confusing the German city with the Ukrainian one. (I ran into this while speaking in Germany.) From there it became "Nachman of Bratslav" or "Bratslau" (mistaking the German -aw for the "OW" sound in English?) in academic works based on Buber, etc. In academe "Bratslav" is still used for both the movement and the town. However, since the Hasidim cal themselves "Breslov" I think that should be the main usage for the movement. Rooster613 00:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

Rabbi Yisroel Karduner, one of the 36 hidden tzadikim, and one of the main transmitters of the correct Breslov tradition, also made the mistake, upon learning about Rabbi Nachman he journied with great self sacrifice to Breslau only to learn that he wanted Breslov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk • contribs) 15:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

External links

The external links section is beginning to look like a posterboard for any organization or person who has "Breslov" in their title. Is this proper Wikipedia style? Yoninah 20:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Answering your question, first mi nick name es "Bresolver" no "Breslover", OK?. And the links are to Breslov's pages, and this are what breslov pages said. Bresolver 00:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

What Wikipedia is not

Hi Bresolver: Yoninah's concerns are legitimate. Kindly familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and especially please read:

• Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files
• Wikipedia is not a free host, blog, or webspace provider
• Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information

If you have questions, feel free to ask. IZAK 02:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Please, explain me why you think i put wrong links? I just put breslovers links! Bresolver 04:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factual information in a neutral, journalistic approach that we call N-POV (Neutral Point of View). This does not mean we must list every single Breslov site on the Web. Sites that are simply promoting a particular yeshiva, radio station, book, rabbi, collections of sermons, or whatever without giving much factual info that would be useful in research ABOUT Breslov seem inappropriate to me. Some of the links added recently, such as Radio Breslov, are already linked on the link launcher, "Breslov on the Internet," hence redundant. (However, that site DOES want to list everything on the Net, so if you get listed there, your group is indirectly linked anyway.) And I do not think that sites primarily in Hebrew are useful to an English encyclopedia. I went through every outside link today and removed those that seemed inappropriate. Granted, this is my personal call, but I have put in a lot of effort trying to keep this and other Breslov pages reasonably N-POV. Rooster613 00:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

Correction

"The well-known tune to Ani Maamin ("I believe") is attributed to Breslover Hasidim who sang it on their way to the gas chambers." The song is from modzitz hassidim, you can find the history here: http://www.modzitz.org/ in the part of the storys. Kol tuv (sorry for the ortography mistaques) Bresolver 21:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. Regarding "Ani Ma'amin," I have heard form several Holocaust survivors that Breslovers popularized it in the camps. However, this would not negate the tune coming from Modzitz. Perhaps both are true? Rooster613 00:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

Maybe both are true... The Breslov page is one of the worst of all the hasidic dynasties, Dont you think? 01:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this page needs a significant stylistic overhaul. However, I just don't have the time right now to do it. Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Spelling errors

Dear Bresolver: I appreciate your sincerity and attempts to make this a better page, but am finding it very hard to deal with your spelling errors. If every time you add something, someone else has to fix it up, you will find that your words will also be changed. Perhaps you could find an English dictionary or a friend to help you before you change the page? Thanks, Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Okey, but i haven't a lot of time...excuse me im trying to do the better. Bresolver 04:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is productive to make statements about which Hasidic dynasty has the worst page(s) -- this rings to much like sectarian quarresl. If a page has problems, please contribute some content, not flames. Rooster613 18:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Name of the movement

The Name is Breslev and not Breslov, breslev is a game of words "bris-lev -cincursicion of the heart" like is write on Sichot HaRan.

To whoever is posting these anonymous comments: They really hold little weight with us regular editors. Perhaps you could log in with a user name and join the discussion as a legitimate participant? Yoninah 13:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference? is the real name of the movement is breslev, don't care if i'm log in or not.

Logging in gives you some credibility as to who you are and what your sources of info are. Now, it is true that the spelling "Breslev" is used by at least one group in Israel, so perhaps this should be mentioned as an alternative spelling and disambiguated. However, In the English language, the spelling "Breslov" is the one most commonly used by Breslover Hasidim. (The difference may well be one of regional accents -- Ashkenazi vs Sephardic or some such, since only one vowel change is in dispute.) Breslov is also the spelling used by the Breslov Research Institute (for which, perhaps, we should have a page?) -- a major publisher of Breslov materials in English. Rooster613 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The name, according to Rabbi Nachman and Rabbi Natan, is Breslev. In all the sefarim Rabbi Natan printed it as Breslev, with two segols. מספר רבי נתן: "עוד שמעתי שפעם אחת סמוך לכניסתו לברסלב מזגו לו כוס יין לקידוש ונשפך על הארץ ומזגו לו כוס אחר וקידש עליו. ואחר כך אמר: היום נטענו שם: ברסלביר חסידים. ושם זה לא ישתקע לעולם, כי לעולם יהיו אנשי שלומנו נקראים על שם עיר ברסלב" (חיי מוהר"ן קט"ו) למה דווקא בברסלב ניטע השם הזה? "דאיתא במדרש על פסוק "ונתתי לכם לב בשר", אל תקרי בשר אלא בוסר, שיהיה כל אחד בוסר בחלק של חברו. לב בסר אותיות ברסלב". (חיי מוהר"ן של"ט) Rabbi Natan writes: I also heard that around the time he entered Breslev [two segols here, as in all other instances] they poured him a cup of wine for Kidush and it got spilled on the ground and they poured him another cup and he made kidush on it. Afterwards he [Rabi Nachman] said 'Today we have planted the name "Breslever Chasidim." And this name shall never fade, for our people shall always be called after the name of the city Breslev (Chayey Moharan 115). Why was this name specifically planted in Breslev? Because it is brought in the Midrash regarding the verse "And I will give you a heart of flesh (lev basar)" (Eze. 36:26) -- do not read it basar/flesh, but boser (cholem tzeireh), for everyone will be "boser b'chelek shel chavero"/rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend [Yalk. Gen. 61]. "Lev basar" is the letters of Breslev. (Chayey Moharan 139) Accordingly, I think everything should be changed to Breslev and not Breslov. Nissimnanach (talk) 06:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach

Where do you see the segols in Reb Noson's writings? I'm sure he didn't write with vowels; these were put in by 20th-century publishers. I am familiar with Rebbe Nachman's play on words, but I think he was just putting vowels under the letters of B-R-S-L-V, not telling you how to pronounce the name of the town. The case for spelling it Breslov or Breslev — or, for that matter, Bresleyv, since we're talking about hearts — really boils down to personal preference when you're transliterating from Hebrew to English. I think it's adequate to put all the alternate spellings in the lead (as it is) and leave the title alone. Yoninah (talk) 20:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You are right, Rabi Natan printed without nikud. Fine, I'll defer for the sake of organization and use Breslov in titles. 169.226.141.212 (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach

Rabbi Schick- Yavniel

Rabbi Schick- Yavniel branch of breslov should be addressed as well...

Famous curse: there is a story that when Joseph Kennedy just before WWII used his influence as the U.S. Ambassador to the UK to prevent Jews in German held territories being granted visas (and safety) to the US, the Rebbe cursed him and his entire family for his actions - many believe that the problems of the family (down to the drunk driving accident of Patrick Kennedy) all date to that curse - does anyone want to place that in the story?Incorrect

Are you sure you're not mixing up rebbes? Rebbe Nachman died in 1810, and Breslov hasn't had another since. Yoninah 22:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

whoops, your're correct, I just checked, the story involves the Belz'e Rebbe, I've posted the above there. Thanks.Incorrect 02:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Title

As the article states correctly, this article is about the Breslov movement or branch of chasidus. It cannot be about the Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) for the simple reason that Reb Nachman had no successor and therefore did not start a dynasty. In the interests of accuracy, can we move the article to "Breslov"?--Redaktor 20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's somewhat, kinda accurate. If you take dynasty to mean a passing of something down a chain of successors rather than as a herditary thing. (Which admittadly is more accurate.) Plus, you could just surrender to the fact that "dynasty" has come to be the English word for a Chasidic sect. Shia1 13:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

But there is no chain of succession, as there has been no rebbe in Breslov since Rabbi Nachman. And I do not accept that 'dynasty' is the English word for a chasidic 'sect'.--Redaktor 21:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Redaktor. What is this "Dynasty" business?! Everyone knows very clearly there was no successor, even Rabbi Natan never took any kind of Rebbehood, Moha-keit/Moho-keit, Admor-ship etc.! Nissimnanach (talk) 06:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach

I'm changing the name to Breslov (Chassidic group) based on the above consensus. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yehoishophot: There is no "consensus" just some comments accumulated over the last few years, that express a variety of views. You need to seek more input before making changes to long-establsihed articles like this. Move it back please. IZAK (talk) 09:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Not accurate

This statement, "Its Hasidim see Torah life as the means to a joyful existence," is not accurate. The wording should be reversed to, "Breslov Hasidis sees a joyful existence as the means to living a Torah life." Rebbe Nachman never said doing mitzvahs will make you happy, he said being happy will help you do mitzvahs, and is a mitzvah in and of itself which a person is obligated to keep regardless of how he feels. Also it should be pointed out that the definition of joy is different from the Western definition. Shia1 13:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. Please edit accordingly. And add a source if you have one.--Redaktor 21:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not fine, although Shia1 has made a valid statement that Rabbi Nachman taught that it is a mitzva to be happy and this will help one do the mitzvos, and do the mitzvos in the most proper way, Rabbi Nachman taught MANY times that doing mitzvos brings happiness, often quoting the verse in Psalms "Pikuday Hashem Yishurim Misamchay Lev" - "the commandmends of G-d are just they bring Joy to the heart". For correct understanding of Rabbi Nachman and the practices of Breslov one should visit nanach.net.Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It is written in the article that Breslovers have a mantra during Hitbodedut. This is not true. Hitbodedut by definition is spontaneous, individual prayer. R' Nachman never used a mantra himself. It may be that the confusion came from what R' Nachman taught that even if one has nothing to say by Hitbodedut besides to call out Ribono shel Okam, that's also good. There is no mantra, and there is no emphasis on the "oy" syllable. Breslovers may say oy during hisbodedus in order to express their broken-heartedness, but not as part of "riboynoy shel oylam" or some joke like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madisonriver9 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Well put, I have expounded on this in the next section entitled Mantra. For further reference visit nanach.net.Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Mantra

The article says that Rabbi Nachman and his followers make use of a mantra. This is a big fallacy started I believe by the late Rabbi Arye Kaplan OB"M, although a tremendous scholar who did priceless work for Judiasm his bias for the esoteric led him to deviant interpretations. Rabbi Nachman taught the importance of secluding oneself with G-d and engaging Him in conversation. Primarily one should be trying to speak about new topics and ideas (Likutay Eitzos; Hisbodidus 2), however since this is a very high and hard level and more often most people can't even open their mouths to say anything, Rabbi Nachman advised and encouraged people to stubbornly stick to whatever it is they could say. If there was one request they had that they were able to verbalize, they should repeat it over and over until they would be able to come up with something else. And if one could not even mouth one complete request, then emitting the entreaty and call of longing, "Master of the World" would have to suffice and should be said over and over again until one could advance further. Sometimes people can't even open up at all, Rabbi Nachman said even still they should be stubborn sitting silently in front of G-d, eventually maybe only after years the person will break through. R. Arye Kaplan got very excited by the part about saying one thing over and over again because that's like a mantra! But anyone who sees it in context can see clearly that the intent was nothing to do with a mantra, I am not denying that a person heeding this particular advice of Rabbi Nachman might benefit as people can from a mantra, however that was not the purpose or the focus of the task advised by Rabbi Nachman. Not that this needs any further proof, rather to further the development of this discussion, I refer to Rabbi Nussun bragging about his prize student R' Moshe Breslevor (from whom the Nanach have the unique and strongest tradition of the ways of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov - see nanach.net), who was able to say "Master of the World" 500 times in succession. This is a paltry number for someone attempting to reach higher consciousness by mean of mantra. However for a person experiencing estrangement from G-d, and even still musters the courage to seek out and call out to G-d, 500 times that is definitely something to brag about.

The article then continues to discuss the true chant and song of the Breslover Chasidim: Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman! This maybe in fact considered a mantra, if one would include songs of spirit, extisy, devotion, and supernal binding as a mantra. Just as the Arizal commanded his prize student, Rabbi Chaim Vital, to call out Akiva Akiva 10 before every prayer so that he would bind his soul to the soul of the Tanaic Sage and Martyr Rabbi Akiva, so and much much greater do those who pronounce this holy song Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman - bind themselves to the holy soul of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov! Even if the article discriminates against the Nanach, it is clear that it is the Nanach that are binding themselves all the time to Rabbi Nachman and thus are clearly the strongest to be associated to Rabbi Nachman!

Anyone who would like to understand and better yet, taste, real Breslov Chasidus, the Real Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, should visit nanach.net.Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

breslov sheurim

call 718 855 2121 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emes5767 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC) one should avoid the lectures of people who are just looking for honor and money. even when Rabbi Nachman was living he expected people to build their own personality and character and make their own decisions, and Rabbi Nachman avoided telling people out right what to do, and sometimes even expected people to disagree with what he told them (as in the famous story when he told Rabbi Nussun to become a Rabbi....). Much of Rabbi Nachman's teachings are available in English (from the original, without mutations, just mistakes that are always unavoidable), for FREE download at nanach.org. You can also correspond with live followers of Rabbi Nachman at nanach.net. This is the true way of Rabbi Nachman.Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk) 15:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

BELARUS

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rosh_Hashana_kibbutz_(Breslov)

So which is it O or E?

What is the correct spelling in English — Breslov or Breslev? Google actually give smore results on the latter one. And there are many hassidic sites that use Breslev, not Breslov. I am Russian and cannot think of a grammar rule or a similar case that would allow to interchange these two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizanthrop (talk • contribs) 12:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The reference in Chayey Moharan 339 explains Breslev in relation to a verse about lev basar/heart of flesh. Then it refers to a midrash that talks about a "lev boser bchelko shel chavero"/a heart rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend. As you know Breslev is about the lev/heart. See also above for fuller citations and more discussion. Nissimnanach (talk) 06:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach

Dynasty vs "group"

A recent move was made by User Yehoishophot Oliver (talk · contribs) to downgrade this group from "dynasty" to "group". The one making these changes did so from a pro-Chabad POV that views Breslov as their rivals. The name "Dynasty" is a generic name for all the Hasidic "groups" on WP since for a long time now, it has been standard procedure not to use the label "sect" because it is demeaning, likewise "group" sounds common-place and not far off from "sect". A "dynasty" denotes a "group" too, even if the seat of power is not held by a direct family member, the "monarchical" and dynastic nature of such Hasidic movements stay intact through each generation that rules in the name of both living and dead rebbes. Such is even the case now in Chabad where the "dynasty" continues even though there has been no succession and no single rabbi has been appointed to the "throne" in the present, yet the movement bases itself on the authority of its last deceased leader. Category:Hasidic dynasties makes clear that this naming convention has been the universally accepted naming convention on WP for many years and changes should not be made without seeking very wide and extensive input. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I also oppose any unilateral diversion from the naming conventions. --Shuki (talk) 14:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

What a load of obnoxious conspiracy bunkum in total violation of WP:AGF. I see nothing demeaning about the word "group", but I do see that it is fully accurate in the technical sense, which dynasty is not. Dynasty means a chain of succession. Chabad is a dynasty in that there were successors to its founder who assumed his position over the course generations. The fact that there is no current successor is irrelevant. However, where there is only one Rebbe, there is no dynasty. In the case of Rabbi Nachman, it was always clear (according to my information, if I err, please correct me) that the rabbis who expounded his views in later times did not assume his position, but only expounded his views. Moreover, all the editors who discussed it on the talk page (albeit over an extended time--so what) agreed on this point. If you can think of another word that is technically correct but is even more elegant-sounding, which I welcome, please change it to that. Until then, kindly desist from your rudeness. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 14:30, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I think if you asked Rebbe Nachman, he would call his group a "movement". Had his two infant sons lived, he might have started a dynasty, but as it is, with his main disciple Reb Noson promulgating the Rebbe's teachings but refusing to take over the leadership, we have what amounts to a "movement".

Comes Wikipedia and says, "Categorization is everything". In that case, making Breslov the odd-man out and calling it a "group" or a "movement" will be too confusing for novice readers. ("It's a Hasidut, isn't it?") An argument could be made that considering all the self-styled "rebbes" of the modern-day Breslov movement, like Rabbis Eliezer Shlomo Schik, Eliezer Berland, and Shalom Arush, Breslov has become a dynasty of sorts, with new leaders taking over from Rebbe Nachman :). For these reasons, I oppose any unilateral diversion from the naming conventions. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting. I firmly disagree that rabbis who expound a Rebbe's teaching can be in any way considered successors. WADR, I think such a suggestion demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of the Rebbe-chossid relationship in general. A Chassidic Rebbe is totally different from a rabbi. Moreover, considering that the Breslov movement always davka objected to considering their teachers, even the ones they regarded as holy, as successors, I believe that it would be unfair for Wikipedia to come along and contradict that caveat on the Breslov page itself. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 07:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way Yohoishophot, the word dynasty is not just a word that means something in the narrow sense of one person handing over rulership to another. It also has a broader meanings in the English language as here where it denotes the establishment of a form of rulership and authority as embodied in a great ruler that can even continue after his death, something you should be acutely aware of as a member of Chabad that worships a dead rabbi and sees nothing wrong with that as continuing the dynasty of a deceased ruler, regardless of who his predecessors were. IZAK (talk) 14:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

"worships a dead rabbi"?! I find your language highly offensive. You take every chance to use talk pages to throw in your anti-Chabad POV, even on pages like this where it is totally irrelevant, in violation of WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. As to the content of what you're saying, please cite proof that the English word dynasty means such a thing. E.g., the definition given here bears out my assessment. It is not technically correct to say that a dynasty continues after its last Rebbe has passed away; the movement may or may not continue, but the dynasty does not. You might want to consult with the dictionary before expressing opinions on word meanings. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Come on Yehopishophot, stop the "innocent act" routine, it's fully verified even on WP, see Chabad messianism (minus the apologetics that Chabad editors have put in over the years); the book that is on record The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference; and noted in many parts of other articles. So this is not "my" invention, it is something that is out there and taken very seriously by a huge part of the Chabad movement. I have no axe to grind, I am in fact an admirer, but that does not mean that when pro-Chabad POV editors start getting involved in articles outside of purely Chabad topics, such as you have done by downgrading and in a great sense also demeaning historical rivals to the Chabad movement, such as you did with with Breslov, Strashelye, Malachim, calling them "groups" instead of the usual nomenclature by not relying on serious discussions and WP:CONSENSUS, and which I have now reverted, then you have started on a slippery slope by now doing the same thing three times. IZAK (talk) 04:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

This is highly offensive, to use such terminology as "worship". We are talking of a small group, that is pushed aside by normal meshichi'im. It would be like saying all Haredim are Nerurei Karta. (I get enough of THAT.) (BTW, Dr. Berger is a family friend; I could ask him if he would agree with such a prejorative statement.)05:21, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

• Although technically this is not a dynasty, since there was no continuation of this group within the descendants of Rabbi Nachman, I agree that on Wikipedia we call all these groups dynasties.

Not connected to this I would like to express my utter contempt to IZAK (talk · contribs) who again tries to attribute a valid opinion to Chabad POV. I reitterate my request that IZAK be banned from all Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 07:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

You are right Debresser, what you say is not connected to this but shows that it is you running around and instead of debating the issues and coming up with workable resolutions, you freely indulge in WP:NPA. Now back to the discussion here, as you admit all over your own pages that you are a Chabad rabbi yourself, as is Yehoishophot Oliver, you are proud of it, so tell us in your own POV official words, what is your stance on Breslov Hasidism. And you know full-well that Breslov is in direct competition with Chabad. Therefore you need to be more careful with how you especially deprecate and downgrade rival movements. You need to be more cautious of not being seen to violate WP:NPOV. I hope I am making myself clear, and please quit your hysteria and hiding pro-Chabad POV titles behind policies that do not apply. IZAK (talk) 14:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

No one here deprecated any movements but you, so who is the one with the POV problem? I second Debresser's petition. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Look here Yehoishophot: You made a pretty big change here without seeking up-to-date discussion and consensus as you should have. Your move is further complicated by the fact that you are known for your pro-Chabad POV editing, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence#User:Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs and you have done this type of thing before when it comes to rivals of Chabad, (see point 3 "Devaluing the place and importance of historical rivals [2] and offshoots, such as the Malachim (Hasidic group) [3] renamed to "group" [4]0 and you have also done this with Strashelye (Hasidic group) -- both Malachim and Strashlye should also be reverted -- , and in that light it is common knowledge that there is a huge rift and rivalry between Chabad and Breslov, so that any move by you to change the title of this article in a way that clearly "lessens" it in stature by calling it a mere amorphous "group" was reverted to a title that had remained untouched, in spite of discussions over the years, but no one saw fit to do what you did, and it just so happens to be, you should not have been the one to do it. If Debresser wishes to add to the discussion that's fine, but red-herring attacks to distract from what going on here in order to give you a free license is not acceptable. IZAK (talk) 03:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

What about solving the problem from the other end? Instead of categorizing everything as a Hasidic dynasty, categorize it as a Hasidut. Like Ger Hasidism, Belz Hasidism, Breslov Hasidism (which by the way has already been done on the category pages: Category:Ger Hasidism, Category:Belz Hasidism, Category:Breslov Hasidism). Yoninah (talk) 09:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Yoninah: I have also thought about this, of perhaps "solving" it that way. But, the "Dynasty" articles focus on the leadership and it's personalities, while the Categories are meant to include all manner of subjects remotely connected to that subject that is not exclusively for the leaders and leadership alone. IZAK (talk) 03:57, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Strashelye and Malachim Dynasty vs "group"

See similar situations at Talk:Strashelye (Hasidic dynasty)#Dynasty vs "group" and Malachim (Hasidic dynasty)#Dynasty vs "group". Thank you, IZAK (talk) 03:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)