Talk:Holodomor

Cannibalism

Would there be any objections to the addition of the story of Petrus? It is an horrific accounting and I am unsure if it ought to be added. See Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin page 51 for details. Tentontunic (talk) 00:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Cannibalism is already mentioned in the article. However I see no reason to provide details about any individual event, unless it has attained notability. TFD (talk) 18:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't an individual event, though.--Львівське (talk) 04:10, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like you're trying to cite a primary source: a witnesses' story or personal narrative. Doing so in relation to historical articles except where they immediately and trivially illustrate by quotation a point made in high quality reliable sources, is original research. The HQRS ought to substantiate exactly and entirely the substance of the quotation, and the quotation should be used for the illustrative colour or expressive turn of phrase. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

It is not from a primary source, it is from bloodlands, I have finished reading it recently and believe a great deal can be used from the book in this article. The story of petrus has achieved notability. In that a child was cannibalizing himself at the same time as as he was being cannibalized by other children. I have seen this mentioned in quite a few sources regarding the Holodomor. I would recommend Bloodlands to all here, it is an astonishing book. Tentontunic (talk) 08:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

(Snyder sourced the story to Robert Kusnierz's Ukrainia (2005), p. 157.[1]) Can you show that the story has achieved any notability, since Snyder's book was published in 2010? TFD (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I really am unable to remember were I have read this before, I fail to see why notability is an issue? The story pertains to the article, I shall add it as it will serve as a graphic reminder of the horrors these people lived through. Tentontunic (talk) 18:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Tables

In the section Death Toll, the tables should provide the scale of the numbers presented ( x100, 1 = 1,000; per million, etc.) Boneyard90 (talk) 15:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Image is not from the famine 1932/33 but from 1921-23

The starving child image is not from the time of Holodomor but apparently (according to the image description) taken during the Russian famine of 1921-22. The image description should thus be changed (from "A child victim of Holodomor."). --Furfur (talk) 21:55, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The image description was changed by the now indef-blocked User:Jo0doe. Look at the source: Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research; Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003. Here is also the photo at www.archives.gov.ua: [2]. There was some discussion at Commons as to the legitimacy of the altering of the description; it seems to have fizzled out by now, but I'll ask around. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's definitely a legit pic from the Holodomor from what I understand. Jo0doe was up to his old tricks of intentionally misusing sources to obfuscate the material and have it removed.--Львівське (talk) 05:28, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

POV

Newly added information is a rehash of old POV claims. Feel free to discuss. I will revert them wholesale unless someone provides necessary RS and proves these claims are legit. (Igny (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC))

POV

Newly added information is a rehash of old POV claims. Feel free to discuss. I will revert them wholesale unless someone provides necessary RS and proves these claims are legit. (Igny (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC))

Hello,

Thanks for doing this. I am new to Wikipedia and hope this will finally allow us to find a consensus on this matter.

I see how people talk here and will try to keep it in a similar manner, short and to the point.

So, a little preambula:

1) People turn to Wikipedia not because it takes a side, but because, as much as possible, it gives the information as it is. I often come here when looking at historical articles, simply because I know it will give both sides of the story.

2) For some reason, most people who claim Holodomor was a genocide (and indeed, those who claim :otherwise), talk only about "Ukraine" as a country. This is the wrong approach, as the original :claims about Holodomor as a genocide talked about a "genocide against Ukrainians", not "... of :Ukraine". In our age, this is hard to understand and often people get confused: when you say :"genocide against Ukrainians", people often think it means against the country of Ukraine, but :that is not true, and it is not where the number of dead come from.

...

Thus, when talking about Holodomor, it is important to keep in mind both point one and point two. :Point one is important so the claims of those who think it was a genocide are not the only ones :heard, for example; and point two is important when talking about the magnitude of the actual :event. Because, don't forget, the number of dead has nothing to do with it actually being a :genocide.

In regards to point one, then whether or not it was a genocide is relatively well attended to on :the page. Both arguements are given. But I sincerely feel there was a problem in regards to the :number of deaths.

Writing something such as "scholarly claims" list the dead at around 2, or 3 million, where as :"some claims" or "outdated claims" list the number of dead at 7 or 10 million does not give a :neutral bystander the same view on all numbers. They will naturally see "scholarly claims" and :think they are the only correct numbers.

So, now, some sources regarding the "higher" versions of the numbers and the (clearly overlooked) :view most people who claim it as a genocide have that it was not only in Ukraine, but against :Ukrainians.

I apologize if I don't source it correctly, I think the point will be clear, though.

http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html

[3]

^ Here, researchers who claim it to be a genocide write, regarding the number of dead, that "... :(based on the information), around 6-7 million dead seems to be the most propable (search "Цифра :6—7 млн. чоловік мабуть найбільше достовірна" in http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html).

They also write that "... starvation did not only affect Ukraine, but also highly Ukrainian :populated areas in Kazakhstan, lower Povolzha (written as Нижнє Поволжя, I'm not sure what that :is in English?), the northern Caucuses, Crimea, and Kurschyna (English?).

From this source, it is written that in many regions of these are outside of Ukraine, during :the time, Ukrainians were the majority. That out of those killed here during Holodomor, :Ukrainians were approximately 70% of those killed. In some areas, they even constituted 87% of :the population(http://www.kavkaz center.com/ukr/content/2011/01/09/17142.shtml, look up "87% :(Темрюцький район)...", and also "...а загалом у сільській місцевості, яка була найбільше :охоплена Голодомором, українці становили 66,6%, то і відсоток українців серед жертв досягав :близько 70%". They state that as a whole, Ukrainians were 66.6% of the population in this area, :and 70% of the dead.

Keep in mind, of course, that the numbers regaring 3 or 4 million, from Kulhytsky or Snyder :mention that number being killed in Ukraine as a country, not Ukrainians overall.

Here, it is stated that outside of Ukraine, approximately three million Ukrainians were killed: :http://bibl.kma.mk.ua/pdf/istgolod/26/11.pdf

Here http://www.drohobych.com.ua/2010/11/26/natsionalizm-i-holodomor-v-ukrajini/, through looking :at similar things to what Kulchytsky looked at regarding change in population, it is stated that :7.5 million Ukrainians (inside of Ukraine) died.

Thus, the beginning of the article could look better if it said something like "... against :Ukrainians, primarily in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainian inhabited areas of the USSR", as writing :"in the Ukrainian SSR" can impliy, again, that it was against Ukraine, not Ukrainians, no?

Don't forget also, from the early 1900s, Ukrainian women had an average of 8 children :(eprints.zu.edu.ua/4189/1/демогр2009.pdf), with there being a very high infant mortality rate, :which made up to 2 of every 8 children die). Families of 12 children were also not uncommon. :Combine this with the population of Ukraine getting smaller by over 5 million from the late 1920s :untill the mid 1930s, and you see why even claims of 7 million inside of Ukraine are not exactly :"not scholarly".

Interesting also, both for giving more creditility to numbers such as 7 or 10 million killed, is :this population survey that the USSR said was from 1931: http://duhvoli.com.ua/resource/images/photogallery/20110517134131.jpg

It says as a whole, Ukrainians in the USSR were 81.1 million. That would mean they were the :majority in the USSR, with Russians being 77.7 million, and Belarussians being 4.7 million. :Again, this in itself does not proove anything, but it is a subjective factor that adds :credibility to similar claims and, would be interesting to include in the article. Here is :another source for that same information: http://ukranews.com/uk/news/ukraine/2011/05/19/43847. :By the end of Holodomor, Ukrainians were around 39 million. This doesn't mean that mant were :killed, but it could mean that because of Ukrainianization by the Soviet government that stopped, :less people considered themselves Ukrainian.

Here, Mr. Serhiyschuk and Mr. Borysenko, who have PHDs in history, mention 7-10 million killed. :http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/.

Thus, I think, to finally solve any debate that exists, it is important to give claims from both :sides of the spectrum (low, and high death numbers) an equal position (i.e. either write :something such as "it is hard to determine due to a lack of records, but somewhere between 4 and :7 million) or just leaving it as it is now, but giving both views in a manner people will look at :as exactly that: two views that are both relatively credible, not one credible and one uncredible. I.e., it isn't exactly the "flat earth" example here. There are lower numbers which have credability, and higher numbers which have credability. As for the 2.4 million, I cannot :find any sources for it, and most things I do find on the lower spectrum seem to be around 3 :million (in Ukraine). Most sources I have listed also say not 7.5, but 7 million.

This way, wikipedia maintains it's function as being the place people look when they are :introduced to a topic, before further researching it. It's fair to list both high and low :estimates, in otherwords, but not only high estimates, or only low estimates.

---

^ About the death toll.

Regarding the 20 million killed in Holodomor, the problem is that it is not possible to find this :source anywhere else: it is only available through an archive, and every other version of his :speech in Congress does not mention that. It very well could have been a mistranslation. He might :have been talking about repressions, and then mentioned Holodomor, and said 20 million. Or, he :meant Holodomor as not only 32-33, but also the other, smaller "Holodomors", after WW2 for :example. Again, no where, do any sources say 20 million people were killed in Holodomor. They say :as a whole, during the USSR (20-30 million is a common number there, for example, here :http://www.galinfo.com.ua/news/87888.html). I just don't think one mistranslated (possibly) quote :that does not exist anywhere else is enough to write something in wikipedia...

Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC). Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC).

See WP:WEIGHT: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". That means giving greatest weight to the views most commonly held by scholars. If you disagree with that policy then you are welcome to try and change it, but in the meantime, it must be followed here. TFD (talk) 04:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Very well said. That there are views most commonly held by scholars must be represented, even if scholars differ in their views.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Also, I, again, am not experienced at this: I would ask anyone who can to include this in the :article. It's very interesting, I'm surprised it's not here already: http://h.ua/story/153952/. :It is a document from 1933, during the Holodomor, where it is written: "cause of death: :Ukrainian" about a boy who died from hunger. Here is a photo: http://fotohost.jampo.com.ua/images/ed14f978e23ce59f5929a2537c551cc9.jpg (the "cause of death: Ukrainian" thing is at the bottom, the :final thing written).Ljudyna (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna

As 4.5 million is included in 5 million ( together with Kuban) and 7.5 million is included in "up to 10 million (some claims)" I have removed the unsubstantiated edits by Ljudyna. (Igny (talk) 20:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

As 7.5 million is a claim that is a scholarly estimate, it has been included. It is, indeed, very important to include all modern and scholarly estimates. Unsubstantiated edits by Igny have been removed. Ljudyna (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

Re "7.5 million". From the source you cited

1932-33 років у цілому завдав шкоди – 7,5 мільйонів жертв

That is 7.5 million total victims from Soviet famine of 1932–1933. Where do they claim 7.5 from Holodomor?? Besides, Drobovich's claims do not recent research or scholarly estimate make. (Igny (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

Some comments.

1. Let me remind you that per our policy, "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, if English sources of equal quality and relevance are available.", therefore, numerous references to Ukrainian newspapers or to some questionable web sites are hardly appropriate here.
2. The sources cited by Ljudyna do not create an impression that they have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", so, in addition to the fact that they are not English language sources, they are poorer quality sources, so they should not be used in this article.
3. I have been surprised to see that the attempts were made to downplay really reliable sources. Thus, the numbers presented by Wheatcroft have been described as "early estimates", although in actuality in his new works he did not reconsider his earlier figures. Interestingly, in his recent work he came to a conclusion that during the Soviet period the mortality was steadily and pronouncedly decreasing, so despite of few short surges of mortality, the overall effect of the Communist rule on the life expectancy was positive. (Stephen G. Wheatcroft. The Great Leap Upwards: Anthropometric Data and Indicators of Crises and Secular Change in Soviet Welfare Levels, 1880-1960. Slavic Review, Vol. 58, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 27-60)
4. Re Kuban. We must be consistent. If we want to write about Holodomor as the action directed against the Ukrainians as the nation, then the article should be re-written, because this theory is a minority views, or the Ukrainian nationalist POV, and should be represented as such. However, if we write about Holodomor as a part of Soviet Famine that took place within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR, Kuban figures must be excluded.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

My two cents:

There are certain issues at hand, and I will give them in detail. Because not everyone has time to read substantially large amounts of information, I will list them, then explain them, and then provide a brief summary.

As a bystander, and keeping in mind the large amount of people that hold each respective view, the following discrepencies in this article seem rather ambiguous:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

2)The view that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" on the main page;

3) Writing that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary".

and;

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

It is these four areas where the primary issues lie, and in that, the last remaining major disagreements in this articole.

Note, of course, that due to the partiality that exists between the questions of whether or not the Holodomor was a genocide, and the way both views are provided, editing of the article for such purposes is no longer an issue. A significant number of people held, and hold both of those views, and, rightfully so, both are represented.

All historical events should be able to be freely researched, and no one should be forbidden to ask questions regarding any historical event. Restrictions on the information flow regarding historical events takes away much of their credibility.

It was very correctly noted by Paul Siebert that those who view the Holodomor as a genocide do not view the events in Ukraine, and the deaths exclusively from starvation as that which the genocide is limited to. As such, and wary that many bystanders will come to this page searching for information regarding the genocidal view, it seems of cardinal importance to include the number of dead both for the (often) non-genocidal view (taking hunger deaths from Ukraine), and the genocidal view (taking all Ukrainian deaths from the entire USSR). It is precisely here where a key descrepency lies in interpretation of the Holodomor.

In the same sense, it could also be misleading to write the "Ukrainian SSR" as the place the events took place. By any standard, perhaps, if an agreement cannot be found, it could be more accurate to make two articles all together: regarding the genocidal view, and the non-genocidal views respectively.

Important also, of course, is that in this same article Kulchytsky himself writes, regarding the data from censuses, that "... the demographic data were opened only in late 1980s". As such, it is not wise to completely ignore the conclusions reached by international commissions in both 1988, and 1990.

So, to address the issues mentioned above:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

- The primary problem here is that it gives an impression that all scholars think it is only 2.4-5 million (thus, taking into account only the deaths in Ukraine, and thus, not viewing it as a genocide), where as many scholars, such as Mr. Serhiychuk, or Mr. Borysenko - who both have PHDs in history - view it as being 7-10 million. So while technically, some scholars do estimate it to be 2.4 - 5 million, and some claims to estimate it to be 10 million, by this logic it is also true that "7-10 million is a scholarly estimate, where as 2.4 - 5 million are just 'some claims'".

A large part of this is the debate regarding the international commissions on the Holodomor, primarily, the ones from 1988, and 1990, which some scholars disagree with. Yet, not all modern scholars disagree with it, and this is very important to note. This can be noted here http://www.anti-crime.org/articles.php?ni=15080&print, here http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/955022.html, and here http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/. I should note, that these sources are from the Radio Free Europe website, which is funded by the United States, and helps spread democracy to countries such as Iran. The site "maidan" says similar things http://eng.maidanua.org/node/792, as does this Kiev newspaper http://www.day.kiev.ua/290619?idsource=171003&mainlang=eng.

Regarding Radio Free Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty

2, and 3): "...Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" (2), and "... The older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary." (3).

- Again, while some older estimates, that are higher than some lower estimates that exist today are sometimes cited in political commentary, much the same, older estimates, that are lower than higher estimates that exist today are also cited in political commentary. In as such, it is not possible to call this statement partial, unless it were to read something similar to "...the older, lower estimates are still often cited in political commentary, and the lower, higher estimates are also still citied in political commentary". Older numbers of 2 million, for example, are sometimes mentioned in place of higher numbers such as 3.3 million that are given by professor Snyder.

What I mean is that the way this is written gives an impression that only old, 50 year old inquiries believe up to 7-10 million died, and today, all scholars believe this to be false.

This in itself is not entirely true, either, because professor Komarnytsky, at his lecture at the University of Cambridge in Britain, also (with sources) agrees with the 7-10 million claim, saying that "... up to 8 or 9 million were killed in Ukraine and Kuban", and that "... there were more victims in Kuban than in Russia as a whole, because Kuban was more population dense". That scholar, contrary to what is written in this article by scholar Kulchytsky, says that Ukraine's population did not decrease a few hundre thousand, but by over 6 million. And when you keep in mind, as mentioned above, that the Ukrainian woman had an average of 8 children during the early 20th century, such a decline speaks for quite a bit.

In the same sense, and for the same reasons, it is not possible to say that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million", because recent research has also shown that it there could have been up to 9 million deaths in Ukraine itself.

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

- Our policy is that "...If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...", it "...does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not...", and "regardless of whether you can prove it or not".

Keep in mind, that Yuschenko, who was who is claimed to have said this, does not speak English, and his original speech was in Ukrainian. It is not possible to find any source that confirms he said this, and it could very well have been a mistranslation. In fact, there is not even a source that shows 20 million Ukrainian dead in Holodomor anywhere on the internet, in any language. I would say, then, that such a view constitutes a viewpoint "...held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...". Or, in any case, the wording should be more accurate, and reflect the one source that does exist, and read not "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", but rather "...even twenty million was once cited in a political speech".

Brief summary:

1) It is not wise to write "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left, because, in just the same sense, you could write 10 million (scholarly estimates) 2.4 - 5 million (some claims);

2, 3) It is incorrect to write that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" and that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary", because recent research also shows the estimates can be as high as 7-10 million, and, in the same sense, "older, lower estimates are still often citied in political commentary";

and,

4) It is not in practice with our referencing policies to write that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", because it is an incredibly fringe view, that cannot be found anywhere else on the internet - on a translated and archived page, that itself is no longer available.

What I propose, then, is simply to include the works of all scholars, and all views that are held by massive amounts of people. Again, not everyone going to this page views the Holodomor as a genocide, which is why they will find more substantiality in claims like 2.4, or 4.5 million. In the same manner, not everyone going to this page agrees that Holodomor is not a genocide, and as such, it is important to include the numbers from not only other parts of the USSR, but first and formost by historians and scholars who believe it to be a genocide. The article, because there are differing opinions, must be written from a neutral view, as only claiming that 7-10 million Ukrainians were killed in a genocide will be just as wrong to many people as claiming that 2-4 million Ukrainians were killed due to economic policies.

Finally, do not forget that an exact number will never be reached, because there is simply a lack of documentation. This means that absolutely every claim regarding Holodomor deaths will be based largely on assumption. This means that the views of every scholar, provided that a large mass actually believe what they say, have an equal right to be mentioned. (Ljudyna (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC).

We do not provide equal weight to all scholarship but "fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". You might want to read about why some scholars have come up with the higher numbers. TFD (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments made after the talk page got blanked and no one noticed

Not sure how to do this properly and preserve everyone's comments, so here are the comments made after the talk page was blanked:

POV

I found an interesting article dated June 15, 2009 from the Jewish Telegraph Agency newspaper website titled "Jewish group objects to ‘Great Famine’ case". Referring to the Ukraine, the article says "The nation's security service is pressing the case against a list of former Soviet officials accused of committing the Holodomor, which caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine in 1932-33. Most of the names on the list were Jewish." This has never been discussed in the west. Although you occasioanally see the expression Jewish- Bolshevik, its usually ascribed to NAZIS or anti-semites. But now the country the Ukraine wants to conduct a criminal case against the perpetrators of this atrocity and the charge is that the perpetrators were Jewish. Should it be pointed out that the perpetrators of this atrocity against Ukrainians were Jewish in the Wikipedia article. Since Jews made up a small percentage of the Ukraimian population this appears to be a significant fact. The article says Ukrainian Jews oppose the trial. Here is the Article.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009/06/15/1005888/jewish-group-objects-to-holodomor-lawsuit

Pgg804 (talk) 01:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• I think this material belongs to Holodomor in modern politics. There is quite a lot of different interests group trying to use the human catastrophe to their advantage or protesting the others using it, etc. All those discussions are interesting but unless it is absolutely important it should not go to the main article Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Newly added information is a rehash of old POV claims. Feel free to discuss. I will revert them wholesale unless someone provides necessary RS and proves these claims are legit. (Igny (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC))

Hello,

Thanks for doing this. I am new to Wikipedia and hope this will finally allow us to find a consensus on this matter.

I see how people talk here and will try to keep it in a similar manner, short and to the point.

So, a little preambula:

1) People turn to Wikipedia not because it takes a side, but because, as much as possible, it gives the information as it is. I often come here when looking at historical articles, simply because I know it will give both sides of the story.

2) For some reason, most people who claim Holodomor was a genocide (and indeed, those who claim :otherwise), talk only about "Ukraine" as a country. This is the wrong approach, as the original :claims about Holodomor as a genocide talked about a "genocide against Ukrainians", not "... of :Ukraine". In our age, this is hard to understand and often people get confused: when you say :"genocide against Ukrainians", people often think it means against the country of Ukraine, but :that is not true, and it is not where the number of dead come from.

...

Thus, when talking about Holodomor, it is important to keep in mind both point one and point two. :Point one is important so the claims of those who think it was a genocide are not the only ones :heard, for example; and point two is important when talking about the magnitude of the actual :event. Because, don't forget, the number of dead has nothing to do with it actually being a :genocide.

In regards to point one, then whether or not it was a genocide is relatively well attended to on :the page. Both arguements are given. But I sincerely feel there was a problem in regards to the :number of deaths.

Writing something such as "scholarly claims" list the dead at around 2, or 3 million, where as :"some claims" or "outdated claims" list the number of dead at 7 or 10 million does not give a :neutral bystander the same view on all numbers. They will naturally see "scholarly claims" and :think they are the only correct numbers.

So, now, some sources regarding the "higher" versions of the numbers and the (clearly overlooked) :view most people who claim it as a genocide have that it was not only in Ukraine, but against :Ukrainians.

I apologize if I don't source it correctly, I think the point will be clear, though.

http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html

[4]

^ Here, researchers who claim it to be a genocide write, regarding the number of dead, that "... :(based on the information), around 6-7 million dead seems to be the most propable (search "Цифра :6—7 млн. чоловік мабуть найбільше достовірна" in http://www.history.vn.ua/book/history3/37.html).

They also write that "... starvation did not only affect Ukraine, but also highly Ukrainian :populated areas in Kazakhstan, lower Povolzha (written as Нижнє Поволжя, I'm not sure what that :is in English?), the northern Caucuses, Crimea, and Kurschyna (English?).

From this source, it is written that in many regions of these are outside of Ukraine, during :the time, Ukrainians were the majority. That out of those killed here during Holodomor, :Ukrainians were approximately 70% of those killed. In some areas, they even constituted 87% of :the population(http://www.kavkaz center.com/ukr/content/2011/01/09/17142.shtml, look up "87% :(Темрюцький район)...", and also "...а загалом у сільській місцевості, яка була найбільше :охоплена Голодомором, українці становили 66,6%, то і відсоток українців серед жертв досягав :близько 70%". They state that as a whole, Ukrainians were 66.6% of the population in this area, :and 70% of the dead.

Keep in mind, of course, that the numbers regaring 3 or 4 million, from Kulhytsky or Snyder :mention that number being killed in Ukraine as a country, not Ukrainians overall.

Here, it is stated that outside of Ukraine, approximately three million Ukrainians were killed: :http://bibl.kma.mk.ua/pdf/istgolod/26/11.pdf

Here http://www.drohobych.com.ua/2010/11/26/natsionalizm-i-holodomor-v-ukrajini/, through looking :at similar things to what Kulchytsky looked at regarding change in population, it is stated that :7.5 million Ukrainians (inside of Ukraine) died.

Thus, the beginning of the article could look better if it said something like "... against :Ukrainians, primarily in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainian inhabited areas of the USSR", as writing :"in the Ukrainian SSR" can impliy, again, that it was against Ukraine, not Ukrainians, no?

Don't forget also, from the early 1900s, Ukrainian women had an average of 8 children :(eprints.zu.edu.ua/4189/1/демогр2009.pdf), with there being a very high infant mortality rate, :which made up to 2 of every 8 children die). Families of 12 children were also not uncommon. :Combine this with the population of Ukraine getting smaller by over 5 million from the late 1920s :untill the mid 1930s, and you see why even claims of 7 million inside of Ukraine are not exactly :"not scholarly".

Interesting also, both for giving more creditility to numbers such as 7 or 10 million killed, is :this population survey that the USSR said was from 1931: http://duhvoli.com.ua/resource/images/photogallery/20110517134131.jpg

It says as a whole, Ukrainians in the USSR were 81.1 million. That would mean they were the :majority in the USSR, with Russians being 77.7 million, and Belarussians being 4.7 million. :Again, this in itself does not proove anything, but it is a subjective factor that adds :credibility to similar claims and, would be interesting to include in the article. Here is :another source for that same information: http://ukranews.com/uk/news/ukraine/2011/05/19/43847. :By the end of Holodomor, Ukrainians were around 39 million. This doesn't mean that mant were :killed, but it could mean that because of Ukrainianization by the Soviet government that stopped, :less people considered themselves Ukrainian.

Here, Mr. Serhiyschuk and Mr. Borysenko, who have PHDs in history, mention 7-10 million killed. :http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/.

Thus, I think, to finally solve any debate that exists, it is important to give claims from both :sides of the spectrum (low, and high death numbers) an equal position (i.e. either write :something such as "it is hard to determine due to a lack of records, but somewhere between 4 and :7 million) or just leaving it as it is now, but giving both views in a manner people will look at :as exactly that: two views that are both relatively credible, not one credible and one uncredible. I.e., it isn't exactly the "flat earth" example here. There are lower numbers which have credability, and higher numbers which have credability. As for the 2.4 million, I cannot :find any sources for it, and most things I do find on the lower spectrum seem to be around 3 :million (in Ukraine). Most sources I have listed also say not 7.5, but 7 million.

This way, wikipedia maintains it's function as being the place people look when they are :introduced to a topic, before further researching it. It's fair to list both high and low :estimates, in otherwords, but not only high estimates, or only low estimates.

---

^ About the death toll.

Regarding the 20 million killed in Holodomor, the problem is that it is not possible to find this :source anywhere else: it is only available through an archive, and every other version of his :speech in Congress does not mention that. It very well could have been a mistranslation. He might :have been talking about repressions, and then mentioned Holodomor, and said 20 million. Or, he :meant Holodomor as not only 32-33, but also the other, smaller "Holodomors", after WW2 for :example. Again, no where, do any sources say 20 million people were killed in Holodomor. They say :as a whole, during the USSR (20-30 million is a common number there, for example, here :http://www.galinfo.com.ua/news/87888.html). I just don't think one mistranslated (possibly) quote :that does not exist anywhere else is enough to write something in wikipedia...

Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC). Ljudyna (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC).

See WP:WEIGHT: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". That means giving greatest weight to the views most commonly held by scholars. If you disagree with that policy then you are welcome to try and change it, but in the meantime, it must be followed here. TFD (talk) 04:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Very well said. That there are views most commonly held by scholars must be represented, even if scholars differ in their views.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Also, I, again, am not experienced at this: I would ask anyone who can to include this in the :article. It's very interesting, I'm surprised it's not here already: http://h.ua/story/153952/. :It is a document from 1933, during the Holodomor, where it is written: "cause of death: :Ukrainian" about a boy who died from hunger. Here is a photo: http://fotohost.jampo.com.ua/images/ed14f978e23ce59f5929a2537c551cc9.jpg (the "cause of death: Ukrainian" thing is at the bottom, the :final thing written).Ljudyna (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC) --User:Ljudyna

As 4.5 million is included in 5 million ( together with Kuban) and 7.5 million is included in "up to 10 million (some claims)" I have removed the unsubstantiated edits by Ljudyna. (Igny (talk) 20:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

As 7.5 million is a claim that is a scholarly estimate, it has been included. It is, indeed, very important to include all modern and scholarly estimates. Unsubstantiated edits by Igny have been removed. Ljudyna (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

Re "7.5 million". From the source you cited

1932-33 років у цілому завдав шкоди – 7,5 мільйонів жертв

That is 7.5 million total victims from Soviet famine of 1932–1933. Where do they claim 7.5 from Holodomor?? Besides, Drobovich's claims do not recent research or scholarly estimate make. (Igny (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC))

Some comments.

1. Let me remind you that per our policy, "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, if English sources of equal quality and relevance are available.", therefore, numerous references to Ukrainian newspapers or to some questionable web sites are hardly appropriate here.
2. The sources cited by Ljudyna do not create an impression that they have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", so, in addition to the fact that they are not English language sources, they are poorer quality sources, so they should not be used in this article.
3. I have been surprised to see that the attempts were made to downplay really reliable sources. Thus, the numbers presented by Wheatcroft have been described as "early estimates", although in actuality in his new works he did not reconsider his earlier figures. Interestingly, in his recent work he came to a conclusion that during the Soviet period the mortality was steadily and pronouncedly decreasing, so despite of few short surges of mortality, the overall effect of the Communist rule on the life expectancy was positive. (Stephen G. Wheatcroft. The Great Leap Upwards: Anthropometric Data and Indicators of Crises and Secular Change in Soviet Welfare Levels, 1880-1960. Slavic Review, Vol. 58, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 27-60)
4. Re Kuban. We must be consistent. If we want to write about Holodomor as the action directed against the Ukrainians as the nation, then the article should be re-written, because this theory is a minority views, or the Ukrainian nationalist POV, and should be represented as such. However, if we write about Holodomor as a part of Soviet Famine that took place within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR, Kuban figures must be excluded.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

My two cents:

There are certain issues at hand, and I will give them in detail. Because not everyone has time to read substantially large amounts of information, I will list them, then explain them, and then provide a brief summary.

As a bystander, and keeping in mind the large amount of people that hold each respective view, the following instances in the article seem rather ambiguous:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

2)The view that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" on the main page;

3) Writing that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary".

and;

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

It is these four areas where the primary issues lie, and in that, the last remaining major disagreements in this articole.

Note, of course, that due to the partiality that exists between the questions of whether or not the Holodomor was a genocide, and the way both views are provided, editing of the article for such purposes is no longer an issue. A significant number of people held, and hold both of those views, and, rightfully so, both are represented.

All historical events should be able to be freely researched, and no one should be forbidden to ask questions regarding any historical event. Restrictions on the information flow regarding historical events takes away much of their credibility.

It was very correctly noted by Paul Siebert that those who view the Holodomor as a genocide do not view the events in Ukraine, and the deaths exclusively from starvation as that which the genocide is limited to. As such, and wary that many bystanders will come to this page searching for information regarding the genocidal view, it seems of cardinal importance to include the number of dead both for the (often) non-genocidal view (taking hunger deaths from Ukraine), and the genocidal view (taking all Ukrainian deaths from the entire USSR). It is precisely here where a key difference lies in the interpretation of the Holodomor.

In the same sense, it could also be misleading to write the "Ukrainian SSR" as the place the events took place. By any standard, perhaps, if an agreement cannot be found, it could be more accurate to make two articles all together: regarding the genocidal view, and the non-genocidal views respectively.

Important also, of course, is that in this same article Kulchytsky himself writes, regarding the data from censuses, that "... the demographic data were opened only in late 1980s". As such, it is not wise to completely ignore the conclusions reached by international commissions in both 1988, and 1990.

So, to address the issues mentioned above:

1)The entering of "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left;

- The primary problem here is that it gives an impression that all scholars think it is only 2.4-5 million (thus, taking into account only the deaths in Ukraine, and thus, not viewing it as a genocide), where as many scholars, such as Mr. Serhiychuk, or Mr. Borysenko - who both have PHDs in history - view it as being 7-10 million. So while technically, some scholars do estimate it to be 2.4 - 5 million, and some claims to estimate it to be 10 million, by this logic it is also true that "7-10 million is a scholarly estimate, where as 2.4 - 5 million are just 'some claims'".

A large part of this is the debate regarding the international commissions on the Holodomor, primarily, the ones from 1988, and 1990, which some scholars disagree with. Yet, not all modern scholars disagree with it, and this is very important to note. This can be noted here http://www.anti-crime.org/articles.php?ni=15080&print, here http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/955022.html, and here http://kbulkin.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/borysenko-serhijchuk-holodomor/. I should note, that these sources are from the Radio Free Europe website, which is funded by the United States, and helps spread democracy to countries such as Iran. The site "maidan" says similar things http://eng.maidanua.org/node/792, as does this Kiev newspaper http://www.day.kiev.ua/290619?idsource=171003&mainlang=eng.

Regarding Radio Free Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty

2, and 3): "...Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" (2), and "... The older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary." (3).

- Again, while some older estimates, that are higher than some lower estimates that exist today are sometimes cited in political commentary, much the same, older estimates, that are lower than higher estimates that exist today are also cited in political commentary. In as such, it is not possible to call this statement partial, unless it were to read something similar to "...the older, lower estimates are still often cited in political commentary, and the lower, higher estimates are also still citied in political commentary". Older numbers of 2 million, for example, are sometimes mentioned in place of higher numbers such as 3.3 million that are given by professor Snyder.

What I mean is that the way this is written gives an impression that only old, 50 year old inquiries believe up to 7-10 million died, and today, all scholars believe this to be false.

This in itself is not entirely true, either, because professor Komarnytsky, at his lecture at the University of Cambridge in Britain, also (with sources) agrees with the 7-10 million claim, saying that "... up to 8 or 9 million were killed in Ukraine and Kuban", and that "... there were more victims in Kuban than in Russia as a whole, because Kuban was more population dense". That scholar, contrary to what is written in this article by scholar Kulchytsky, says that Ukraine's population did not decrease a few hundre thousand, but by over 6 million. And when you keep in mind, as mentioned above, that the Ukrainian woman had an average of 8 children during the early 20th century, such a decline speaks for quite a bit.

In the same sense, and for the same reasons, it is not possible to say that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million", because recent research has also shown that it there could have been up to 9 million deaths in Ukraine itself.

4) Writing that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches".

- Our policy is that "...If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...", it "...does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not...", and "regardless of whether you can prove it or not".

Keep in mind, that Yuschenko, who was who is claimed to have said this, does not speak English, and his original speech was in Ukrainian. It is not possible to find any source that confirms he said this, and it could very well have been a mistranslation. In fact, there is not even a source that shows 20 million Ukrainian dead in Holodomor anywhere on the internet, in any language. I would say, then, that such a view constitutes a viewpoint "...held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority...". Or, in any case, the wording should be more accurate, and reflect the one source that does exist, and read not "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", but rather "...even twenty million was once cited in a political speech".

Brief summary:

1) It is not wise to write "2.4 - 5 million (scholarly estimates), up to 10 million (some claims)" in the table on the left, because, in just the same sense, you could write 10 million (scholarly estimates) 2.4 - 5 million (some claims);

2, 3) It is incorrect to write that "recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 4 million" and that "...older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary", because recent research also shows the estimates can be as high as 7-10 million, and, in the same sense, "older, lower estimates are still often citied in political commentary";

and,

4) It is not in practice with our referencing policies to write that "...even twenty million is sometimes cited in political speeches", because it is an incredibly fringe view, that cannot be found anywhere else on the internet - on a translated and archived page, that itself is no longer available.

What I propose, then, is simply to include the works of all scholars, and all views that are held by massive amounts of people. Again, not everyone going to this page views the Holodomor as a genocide, which is why they will find more substantiality in claims like 2.4, or 4.5 million. In the same manner, not everyone going to this page agrees that Holodomor is not a genocide, and as such, it is important to include the numbers from not only other parts of the USSR, but first and formost by historians and scholars who believe it to be a genocide. The article, because there are differing opinions, must be written from a neutral view, as only claiming that 7-10 million Ukrainians were killed in a genocide will be just as wrong to many people as claiming that 2-4 million Ukrainians were killed due to economic policies.

Finally, do not forget that an exact number will never be reached, because there is simply a lack of documentation. This means that absolutely every claim regarding Holodomor deaths will be based largely on assumption. This means that the views of every scholar, provided that a large mass actually believe what they say, have an equal right to be mentioned.

...

PS: To Igny: Govorju na velykom i moguchom, esli nado, mozhna pysat' na nom. I tak mne kazhetsja, shcho pochti nikto, krome nas, etovo chytat ne budet'. Davajte vmeste nakonets reshat etu problemu. Ljudyna (talk) 05:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

We do not provide equal weight to all scholarship but "fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". You might want to read about why some scholars have come up with the higher numbers. TFD (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

We have a very clear policy regarding this, namely to be cautious, regarding sources, where "...proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOENG#Non-English_sources. I'm sure there exist many presumptions as to why some scholars have higher numbers, but on the same grounds, I'm sure there also exists presumptions as to why some scholars have come up with lower numbers. In addition, I agree with everything you've said, especially regarding the principle to "fairly represent[] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". As I was saying to Igny (and I do apoligize for not writing in English), I think it's time we finally solve this, similarly to how we solved the genocidal question in this same article. Ljudyna (talk) 05:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

We prefer English sources because they are more accessible to readers, and for no other reason. In some cases foreign language sources are preferable. But in order to provide more weight to these sources you would have to show that scholars give them that weight. TFD (talk) 05:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Citing numbers from 1988/1990 findings by some unnamed commissions is exactly what "citing older higher estimates in political rhetoric" means. That does not constitute recent research in no meaningful way. While we all value scholarly achievements by the historians you cite, their remarks do not contain any of the analysis of the figures or sources and could be summed up by "some historians are also citing older estimates". What you are engaged here is an OR and attributing too much weight to a particular POV. (Igny (talk) 07:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC))

It is not up to us whether or not these commissions are trustworthy, it is up to scholars, who study this material. I was under the impression that you understood Russian (and Ukrainian), and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

It is indeed a shame you have not answered the gross majority of what I wrote, and such behaviour is disappointing in a circle of discussion like this.

I am merely a neutral bystander, and I think my distrust of claims regaring 20 million Ukrainians being killed can attest to that. I am still waiting for credible sources regarding that, by the way, sources that do not constitute a "strong minority".

The biggest of these international commissions can be read about here: bibl.kma.mk.ua/pdf/istgolod/26/11.pdf. It was lead by an international team of lawyers, including, but not limited to, Dr. D. Draper - former judge during the Nurnberg trials; John Humphries - professor from Canada, also a former director of the UN Human Rights division, and many others. It was officially presented in 1992 in Kyiv. In short, their conclusions were that between 7 and 10 million Ukrainians were killed. Using, of course, democratic data - democratic data no less trustworthy then the democratic data used by historians who do not feel the Holodomor was a genocide.

Some scholars today agree with their findings, and some scholars do not.

There are also some major, major discrepencies. Kulchytsky claimed the population declined by less than 500 000, yet in the same sources listed above, and as noted by professor Komarnytsky at the University of Cambridge (in 2009, I should note), other sources (and again, demographic sources, that are official, and no less trustworthy than any other sources used) appear to show it declined by up to 5 million. And again, I repeat, that the average Ukrainian woman back then had 8 children. They had 8 children, yet it declined by 5 million. I don't think I need to comment.

It is fine to feel that some sources are more credible, but I am confident that the sources provided by scholars who view Holodomor as a genocide, and thus take the number of dead not only for Ukraine, but for Ukrainians as a whole, are most certainly credible enough to if not be presented equally, then to at least be presented in a greater manner than before.

I also await your answer towards my proposition of including this: http://h.ua/story/153952/. I have hopes that you too are a neutral bystander, and as someone more experienced with Wikipedia, you could explain that that photo is the death certificate of a little boy killed during the time of Holodomor, it is written "cause of death: Ukrainian". This, of course, does not prove anything about numbers killed or genocide, as he could have been attacked by a racist neighbour, for example. But I think it does have enough to do with the Holodomor to be included.

Here is the photo: http://fotohost.jampo.com.ua/images/ed14f978e23ce59f5929a2537c551cc9.jpg

Again, I hope we can find a diplomatic style solution for this, and include all credible sources. If not equally, then most certainly in a more objective manner than before. Surely, this is fair. We must, in all costs, avoid any reflection of POVs in the article. Ljudyna (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

You are referring to the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine (1983) which concluded that there were between 4.5 and 7 million victims, which is already reflected in the article. However, we would need later scholarship to confirm whether these conclusions have stood the test of time. TFD (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we don't. If someone has an RS contesting the figures, that source can be added, but the idea that every source one does not like must be reconfirmed is not found in any WP policy. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about, Collect? We need to establish the degree of acceptance of opinions added to the article. It is not a case of "one does not like". I have no idea how accepted the views of a report written before the archives were available to scholars is, and expect that it should be determined. Subsequent scholarship may have revised the figures upwards or downwards. TFD (talk) 19:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Conquest's opinion on the genocidal nature of Holodomor.

The section devoted to the genocide question starts with the following statement:

"[Robert Conquest]] believed that the famine of 1932–33 was a deliberate act of mass murder, if not genocide committed as part of Joseph Stalin'scollectivization program in the Soviet Union. "

This statement is false, because it contradicts to the present position of this scholar on that issue. His position has been explained by Davies and Wheatcroft on the page 441 of their book (Davies, R.W. & Wheatcroft, S.G. (2004) The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931 – 1933). They refer to the personal letter from Robert Conquest. They repeated their explanation in their more recent work (Davies, R. W. and Wheatcroft, Stephen G.(2006) 'Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932 - 33: A reply to Ellman ', Europe-Asia Studies, 58: 4, 625 — 633), where they describe the position of Conquest (as well as their own position) as follows:

"Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that ‘Stalin purposely inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put ‘‘Soviet interest’’ other than feeding the starving first—thus consciously abetting it’"

It is necessary to note, that the same ideas can be found in recent interviews obtained from Conquest himself, however, the peer-reviewed publication where the views of this scholar have been described is a more reliable source. Based on that, I do not see why do we need to start the section with the opinion Conquest had in past.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

What Davies and Wheatcroft state of Conquest's opinion is insufficient in my view. It would be better to source something directly published by Conquest himself, do you have such a cite. Otherwise the best that can be made is something along the lines of:

"Robert Conquest believed that the famine of 1932–33 was a deliberate act of mass murder, if not genocide committed as part of Joseph Stalin's collectivization program in the Soviet Union. Davies and Wheatcroft allege Conquest clarified his view in 2003... (etc.). "

--Martin (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

No. D&W are not journalists but reputable scholars, and they transmitted the Conquest's views quite carefully. Moreover, they provided the quote from the Conquest's letter, so we have no reason to doubt in the correctness of these words, and to claim they "allege" something is simply insulting. In scientific community, people cannot distort other's point of view, otherwise that would be an end of their own carrier.

Moreover, I recall I read some Conquest's interview where he expressed the same ideas, however, D&W seem to be more reliable source.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

Especially, again, when there are modern scholars who do agree with the findings of that international commission.

Also, it is not only their findings, but other modern findings that contradict the findings of scholars with lower death tolls, findings that appear to support a higher death toll. Such as the population decreasing not by 500 000, but by almost 6 million - and again, this is despite the average Ukrainian woman having 8 (!) children. And while this does not prove anything 100% (and, finally, because there is no hard evidence for even one person being killed, it is all speculation and how you judge demographics, no other theories prove anything, either).

By the way, Paul, I would ask you to include the death certificate photo, as I do not know how to do that. I see the additions you have made have been objective, and I think it will make the article more interesting. The photo itself is not in English, but anyone who knows Ukrainian, or can read cyrllic knows what it says.

I really think it is necessairy that we prepare our own propositions, as if we are writing a "resolution", thus if someone edits the article again, we'll all be able to stop it and put it back. Again, I repeat: because both credible views (regarding if or if it is not a genocide) are there, there is no more editing for that.

Finally, do not forget that Conquest was not the only person who thought it was genocide in the early days. I think this quote would also be very good to include, especially because it is English:

This is a quote from a communist leader speaking in the Kharkiv region in 1934:

"Famine in Ukraine was brought on to decrease the number of Ukrainians, replace the dead with people from other parts of the USSR, and thereby to kill the slightest thought of any Ukrainian independence."

- V. Danilov et al., Sovetskaia derevnia glazami OGPU_NKVD. T. 3, kn. 2. Moscow 2004. P. 572

Sovetskaia derevnia glazami OGPU_NKVD means something like "Soviet history through the eyes of OGPU_NKVD".

Sadly, I do not know how to include quotes and add new references. But from a neutral point of view, it would seem to be better to include both such quotes, and also the works of historians such as Snyder and Wheatcroft.

By the way, this is nothing to do even with Communism, because Ukrainians lived much better, especially during the later years of the USSR, than they have during 19 years of independence (and corruption). Ljudyna (talk) 21:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)Ljudyna

(edit conflict)The death certificate photo is a primary source, and its usage is regulated by WP:PSTS. In addition, this image is hardly in PD, so the image must be supplemented by FUR, which will hardly be convincing in this case, taking into account our non-free media policy. Moreover, the web site you took it from does not seem to be a reliable source, so I do not think we need to add it.

You also have to separate the figures from interpretations, so there sources that give high estimates for demographic losses do not necessarily support the idea that Holodomor was genocide, and vise versa.

Regarding the modification of this section, the section is a complete mess, so we need to re-organise the material at least (I tried to fix it, however, more work is needed).

And, finally, you totally ignore the fact that, despite short-term welfare and mortality crises, the overall welfare improvement (and a sharp decreas of mortality) during 1920-60 is a well established fact, and that tendency, which was a world trend in XX century was especially prominent in the USSR. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I apologize sincerely, as I thought simply listing the source as an example would suffice.

The source is from the official website of the Sumy State Archive, from Ukraine. If it matters, Sumy region is run by the pro-Russian Party of the Regions, and the Communist Party of Ukraine has over 5%, which is among it's best results in Ukraine. The site I listed prior was simply one of the hundreds with the photo. Searching "причина смерті: українець" on Google images gives many similar photos, maybe, you could find one of better quality.

Here is the source: http://www.state-gov.sumy.ua/docs/golodomor/golodomor.html

The photo itself can be found by typing "причина смерті: українець" on google images. Normally, dozens of results appear (of different quality).

It, of course, does not prove anything regarding genocide or casualties. But seeing as the article is about the Holodomor of 1932-33, which some people claim was targeting Ukrainians, and this 1933 death certificate shows the cause of death of a boy in a region that was highly affected by these policies or genocide (depending how you look at it) as being Ukrainian, it would appear it could have a place in the article.

Similar is the quote from the Soviet leader from 1934. Again, a quote of one leader means absolutely nothing, and in the same sense, a quote from one scholar about Conquest means no more: but they are interesting side-details that are well-known to many, and surely they have a place in any neutral article regarding these events.

Regarding what you wrote about the USSR, then it appears from your English you are from the west. As such, I suspect you have been fed propaganda regarding Communism and the USSR for a long time. I don't know you, or any of your political views, but let me tell you, that a strong amount of what you have been taught is not true. The living conditions in the USSR, in many cases, were even superior to that of western countries. The crime rate was almost non-existant, absolutely everyone played sports, there was almost no fast-food, police were even largely unarmed (this tradition has remained, to some extent, in Ukraine and Russia to this day. You know, when "democracy" came, and many police started to become armed, the people called the belts they began wearing around their waists "democratizators". To this day, that slang-word is wide spread. "They used their democratizators to calm the crowd", etc. There are many sources for this, if you want to enter it anywhere). The Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic, for example, in the 1980s was the 10th most developed country in the world! People helped each other, no one locked their doors, all the star atheletes lived not in a seperate world but walked the same streets and wore similar clothes to the other people, literacy was practically universal, and the USSR had the most hospital beds available of any country in the world. In fact, Ukrainian Communists during 1932-33 heavily protested what is claimed Stalin was doing. There were, of course, many problems with the USSR. Many problems. But the Holodomor should not be used for politcal purposes by any side. The key is an objective article. Ljudyna (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Ljudyna

I regret that "The living conditions in the USSR, in many cases, were even superior to that of western countries" swings the propaganda pendulum a bit too far the other way. I am personally familiar with cases of Soviet doctors, etc. visiting the U.S. and genuinely believing, upon seeing a fully stocked supermarket, that it was a capitalist lie staged solely for their benefit. And I am personally familiar with the quality (not) of Soviet era construction. But to the crux of the issue: until official Russia officially acknowledges the crimes against humanity wrought by the Soviet Union instead of glorifying the post WWII Soviet oppression of 100,000,000 as "liberation", among other less than stellar moments, the Holodomor and other tragedies will remain "political." PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

why a different label?

why is this not called a Holocaust? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.226.95.18 (talk) 18:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert why

[5] This revert was done as I believe majority of sources say the famine was in fact man made, or at least that stalins policy's were a major contributing factor. Also no page number given for a source. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no denying that unlike the prior famine in which aid was sought (with Herbert Hoover running the famine aid effort), Stalin did not request aid, Stalin prevented Ukrainians (in particular) from leaving the famine zone, Stalin requisitioned grain to the point of leaving nothing, etc., etc. Not asking for international aid could only be a conscious and deliberate decision. "Oops, I forgot, we could have asked for help like we did before!" Somehow I don't see that in Stalin's lexicon. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Read last Conquest's interviews on that account. Being a honest scholar, he partially reconsidered his views, and he does not consider this famine a deliberate Stalin's act. I also advise you to read a whole discussion between Conquest and Wheatcroft, both sides provide quite persuasive arguments. Moreover, your edit is in a direct contradiction with what the article (a "Genocide qiestion" section) currently says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:06, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Who doubts here that this famine is a part of the bigger Soviet famine? Why do you keep deleting that statement? (Igny (talk) 03:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC))

Because some writers, such as Timothy Snyder, have noted t hat there were special conditions in Ukraine that were not implemented in other parts of the USSR that contributed to greater lethality in Ukraine - i.e., it is just one POV that the famine in Ukraine was simply another part of the general USSR-wide Famine, specific only by geography.Faustian (talk) 04:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The 'universalist' view is standard Russo-Soviet rhetoric, "one slav people", "one orthodox people", "no holocaust, one tragedy to all citizens during great patriotic war", and of course, that the 'famine affected the entire USSR'. Its typical for Communists to try to view everything as equal, but its unhistorical.--Львівське (talk) 05:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

TLAM, could you provide a source showing that it is the consensus of academic writers that the famine was man-made? TFD (talk) 03:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

My impression is that there is no consensue about whether or not it is genocide, but general consensus that it was manmade. For what it's worth, Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands, pg. 42: "though collectivization was a disaster everywhere in the Soviet Union, the evidence of clearly premeditated mass murder on the scale of millions was most evident in Ukraine."Faustian (talk) 04:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Majority of sources clearly state that Holodomor was a deliberate act. Stalin Genocides. Norman M. Naimark. Some quotes.

"By 1931 the state collections of cereals in the largest wheat-growing regions of Ukraine and the northern Caucasus constituted 45–46 percent of the entire harvest, leaving the peasants bereft of food supplies.3 Grain shortages led the peasants to slaughter their animals. Those collective farms that still had supplies of seed grain for the following year’s harvest were forced to turn them over to the authorities. There was nothing left to eat or to plant, less because of the total size of the harvest (historians estimate that it was not so bad in 1932) than because of the forced removal of peasant production"

"Widespread grain shortages in Ukraine due to the excesses of requisitioning led to fierce hunger and horrible desperation in the Ukrainian countryside, as well as in northern Kuban"

"In the month of February 1933 alone, cordons of OGPU troops arrested 220,000 Ukrainian peasants attempting to flee their villages. Of these, 190,000 were sent back home, which meant they were essentially condemned to death. The rest were sent to the Gulag, where the death rate during the famine years was also exceptionally high.8 Roadblocks set up by the authorities prevented Ukrainian peasants from entering the cities, where food was sometimes available, though far from plentiful. Even when the desperate peasants managed to elude the roadblocks and find their way to the city, they often collapsed and perished in the streets from lack of food. The authorities had the dead bodies quickly removed from sight. Offers of food relief to Ukraine from outside the Soviet Union were turned down as unnecessary; in fact, the Soviet authorities obstinately denied the very existence of the famine when they knew differently"

Should anyone have sources which say it was not deliberate please present them. The Last Angry Man (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Wheatcroft, Davis, Tauger, Ellman. Robert Conquest, the author of "Harvest of Sorrow", does not support the idea about a deliberate nature of Holodomor any more. All these works have been cited in the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These are still a minority. The majority consensus is that is was deliberate.--Galassi (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These seem to be some of the top authors on the topic. GreyHood ^Talk 12:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Tauger seems to be th only one who denies that it was manmade. From this article, recent Conquest: "that with resulting famine imminent, he [Stalin] could have prevented it, but put 'Soviet interest' other than feeding the starving first - thus consciously abetting it." Wheatcroft - "[W]e regard the policy of rapid industrialization as an underlying cause of the agricultural troubles of the early 1930s, and we do not believe that the Chinese or NEP versions of industrialization were viable in Soviet national and international circumstances." Recent Conquest and Wheatcroft deny that Stalin's goal was to starve peasants, however they do state that the famine was caused by Soviet policies and thus was artificial/manmade. The fact that the famine was manmade seems to be noncontroversial and the view of the majority of scholars. Whether killing was the goal in itself (vs. the known but accepted side effect of the Soviet industrialization of agriculture) is where opinions among scholars differ - and whether this can be labelled genocide is more controversial still. But the fact that it was manmade is not.Faustian (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These authors conclude that the government policy partially contributed to the famine. In addition, the term "man made" implies that Holodomor was deliberately organised, which was probably not the case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"Underlying cause" seems to tell us it was manmade - in other words, if not for man's interventions there would not be the famine. I would prefer some sort of clarification, such as a sentence about the dispute whether the starvation was deliberate policy in itself vs. a known and accepted side effect of another policy. The consenus is that the famine wasn't just due to a dustbowl-type situation where the peasants didn't produce enough to even feed themselves. Without the phrase man-made it reads as if this might have been the case.Faustian (talk) 14:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There was (and continues to be) a draught some every 10-11-12 years in the East European plain because of the solar cycle (and it is extremely widely known fact), so there would be low harvest and hunger anyway and speculations like that "if not for man's interventions there would not be the famine" are hardly could be proven true. The actions of authorities (or the lack of them) contributed to the scale (almost everyone agrees on that), but it is a question how much was that contribution. GreyHood ^Talk 14:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There was a very deadly famine in the Volga region in the 19th century but not in Ukraine, where unlike in Russia "bad years" and low harvests did not result in mass deaths. A summary of historical famines in Ukraine from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine: [6].Faustian (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

If the Holodomor wasn't deliberate - how many Soviet politicians have been punished as responsible for such major errors?Xx236 (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The top persons from the government of the Ukrainian USSR (e.g. Stanislav Kosior) were executed few years later, though on different charges. GreyHood ^Talk 12:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"on different charges". If people didn't obey Soviet leadership, they were arrested and excuted rather than purged years later. The same were purged people outside Ukraine.Xx236 (talk) 12:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Charges related to past activity were normal during the purges. Also, there was a related anecdote, that while in the U.S. a spy would be charged with economic crimes and sentenced, in the USSR an economic criminal would be charged as spy and sentenced. GreyHood ^Talk 13:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment There appear to be an edit war over the statement of relief being denied, urely none can state that relief was not denied? All sources point to this fact. Also per WP:BRD the recent changes which were reverted are also being edit warred in, it was inserted, it was reverted, now discuss. The Last Angry Man (talk) 13:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources have been provided in a responce to your request. These sources are by no means unreliable, minority or fringe. Moreover, the article currently states that many scholars do not believe Holodomor was deliberately organised. Therefore, your revert is totally unjustified.

In addition, the dispute is over at least three separate things: the man made nature of Holodomor, Holodomor as a part of the Great Famine, and the prohibition of relief by the government. Although these issues had already been discussed later, we can discuss them again. However, let's do that separately.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

More on Wheatcroft&Davis

Below is a quote from the Paul Gregory's review on R. W. Davies, and Stephen G. Wheatcroft's "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933" published in The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 78, No. 2 (June 2006), pp. 539-541:

"The most intense battle was for grain collections, which became literally a life-and death struggle as declining morale, poor weather, and the spread of infestation resulted in grain production declines in 1931 and 1932. Some of the most fascinating archival material in this book describes the intense political lobbying of the Politburo by the party bosses from grain-producing regions as the bosses jockeyed for reduced collections and for grain and seed loans from central funds. Concessions were top secret, and information about them withheld from other regional bosses. Ukraine played the most prominent role as the major grain producer and as a republic directly represented in the Politburo (by P. Kosior)—a privilege that proved costly in 1931, when Kosior maintained Politburo discipline by not lobbying for reductions for Ukraine.

"The authors (particularly Wheatcroft) are the most authoritative experts in the world on grain statistics (see, e.g., their appendix on grain harvests). (....) As famine intensified, collections were shifted to nonfamine regions, collections were halted in Ukraine on February 5, 1933 (212), and the Politburo and secret police (OGPU) introduced draconian food distribution policies that directed food only to those working in the fields and (to their credit) to children and denied food to those already seriously weakened by hunger. Residents of famine regions were prevented by strict administrative controls from fleeing to regions with less famine. Rations to industrial workers were reduced to near-starvation levels as distributions were grudgingly made from the general fund. Davies and Wheatcroft show that Stalin and the Politburo did not manufacture famine to punish class enemies but that they did attempt to control the famine by saving productive farm workers and children while deliberately sacrificing the “nonproductive.”"

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:12, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Chilling. Reminds me of killing the weak/unproductive in the concentration camps but giving those who could work as slave laborers enough food to survive. This supports that the famine was artificial, the product of policies. No man-made interventions, the peasants would have been able to feed themselves and would not have starved. Also a lot of stuff was declassified since 2006 - Timothy Snyder's work seems to have the most up-to-date info. It is summarized in the article here. Faustian (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

In order to conclude that the "majority consensus" is that the famine was man-made we need a source that says something like, "the majority consensus is that the famine was man-made". Presenting the opinions of various scholars is not helpful because we do not know what weight the academic community assigns them. However, if some scholars say it was not man-made means that we cannot say it was, unless we have a source that that opinion represents consensus. TFD (talk) 14:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

If we don't use the word "consensus" we can state "most researchers" which is a summary of what is in the body of the article. Doing so does not seem to be a synthesis or original research.Faustian (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Per our policy, "the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source." The works of the scholars listed by me meet all these criteria, and, independently on bare number of the authors thinking otherwise we cannot ignore the above listed sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

{ec} @TFD, sorry, Davies and Wheatcroft are not a good source for intent. Gregory's "show..." ignores D&W's explicit disclaimer in their work that they make absolutely no judgements as to acts whose results were detrimental to the populace, nor do they speculate on any possible motivations on such acts. Again, there was no reason to not request international aid, which had been given so freely and generously in earlier famine, so "draconian" as "saving" people is really quite laughable. What workers in the fields were being saved when every bit of grain was requisitioned? What exactly were they tilling? "Residents of famine regions" prevented from leaving the famine region AFAIK extended only to the Ukraine. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 14:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course they are, and they explained their views as follows:

"Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that 'Stalin purposely inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first thus consciously abetting it'." (Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman Author(s): R. W. Davies and Stephen G. WheatcroftSource: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4 (Jun., 2006), pp. 625-633)

In that sense, Holodomor is not different from the Bengal famine of 1943: British administration could prevent it, but it preferred not to do that being preoccupied with the war with Japan.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

PЄTЄRS J V, all that I am asking for is a source that says there is consensus that the famine was man-made, in which case it is a fact and we can report it as such. If on the other hand, it is a majority opinion, with significant opposing dissenting views, then we can say that too. Otherwise, we get bogged down in people selecting their favored works. I have no interest in whether the famine was man-made or an act of God, merely what scholarship says. TFD (talk) 15:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The lede itself currently states there is no consensus. The third paragraph says:

"Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Stalin. Scholars and politicians using the word Holodomor emphasize the man-made aspects of the famine, arguing that it was genocide; some consider the resultant loss of life comparable to the Holocaust. They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide. Others claim that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization."

The situation when the first and third paragraphs of the lede contain mutually exclusive statements is ridiculous and that undermine credibility of Wikipedia. I suggest everyone at least to read the article carefully before making changes to it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that the 1st and 3rd paragraphs are necessarily mutually contradictory. Man-made policies made a poor harvest a deadly one; perhaps the third paragraph can be changed to make this clearer.Faustian (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• @The Last Angry Man. Yes, the famine was described as "man-made" in most books, especially by Robert Conquest (not mentioning the "Black book", etc.). Hence the name of the famine ("Holodomor", "killing by hunger"). Some other books (e.g. by Figes) are more ambiguous, but tell that the deaths of people were certainly "man-made" (because the military/NKVD forces were used to prevent the movement of population after taking all their food). The controversy here is different. It is about the question if this man-made famine was used to exterminate specifically the Ukrainian population. Here Conquest tells "yes" (based on a number of facts and analysis in his book "The harvest of sorrow"), but Figes tells "no" (without providing any arguments).Biophys (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Biophys, I recommend you to read the discussion first. Conquest's position had changed: he does not consider this famine a deliberate act of starvation. With regard to the contribution of human mistakes and governmental policy into the onset of the famine, it was significant. However, Holodomor is not significantly different from many other famines in that respect, for example from the Bengal famine of 1943.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)