Talk:Serer people

Vandalism by 99.44.204.232. Please stop it

• Would 99.44.204.232 stop vandalising this article. People have invested a lot of time and effort to improve this article it doesn't help if you keep vandalising it. In future if you have something positive to add to this article please discuss it in the talk page. I have to spend hours undoing what you have just done. Citing several sources (some of which are unreliable) about one particular issue which has already been addressed and sourced with notable sources is one thing, deleting edits with notable sources and then copying and pasting those sources to make a point is another. You wanted the article to talk about Serer Nile Valley migration. That had already been discussed several times with notable sources like Gravrand, Cheikh Anta Diop, etc. You also wanted the ethnonym of Serer to reflect the thesis of Diop. The article already did that with notable sources including Diop himself. If only you took the time to read the whole article you would have realised that, all these had been addressed. However, you should also appreciate that not every scholar and certainly not the ultra traditionalist Serer who wants nothing to do with Egypt agree with Diop and in fact his thesis were rebutted by several scholars including Schuh, etc. These are relevant view points which should also be taken into account in other to avoid bias.

I will now respond to the "sources" that you have provided.

Link 1: http://books.google.com/books?id=EZLF3T-5tlgC&pg=PA706&lpg=PA706&dq=serer+wolof+north+east+africa&source=bl&ots=6ZlcoUiSsf&sig=zOFR1CQY5BWf2thxHjWIhmq9Q8Y&hl=en&ei=BMFiToPpH6HL0QGE142OCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Have you realised that this source is not credible contrary to all the sources cited? Have you also realised that the author referred to the Kingdoms of Sine and Saloum as Wolof states? Even the least verse on Senegambian history can easily find out for themselves that the Kingdom of Sine and Kingdom of Saloum were Serer Kingdoms not Wolof never mind a supposed scholar. Just in case, here is a link for your perusal: Editor: Carole Boyce Davies. "Encyclopedia of the African diaspora: origins, experiences and culture". Volume 1. P987. Published by: ABC-CLIO, 2008. 1851097007, 9781851097005. Further, all the sources, historical and archaeological evidence shows that the Senegambian stone circles were built by the Serer people. (See: Gravrand, Pangool; Gamble, Salmon and Njie; Burke and Else; and F. Richard).

Since they were built by the Serers, and evidence have shown that they are built well before the 14th century, how then could the Serers have migrated into the area into the 14th century? That doesn’t make sense. Now the Serers may have migrated to from the Nile Valley as implied by Henri Gravrand in “La Civilisation Sereer, Pangool”, which is one of the sources cited in the article, but as noted by Gravrand, if they did came from the Nile it was more than 5 thousand years ago and certainly not the 14th century. Further, as demonstrated by Gamble, Salmon and Njie, the Serer are the oldest inhabitants of Senegambia, others later moved in. This backs up archealogical source, backs up Gravrand, Kleine, Richard and so on. If your source was referring to the Guelwars of Kaabu coming from Kaabu to Sine in the 14th century at least I could understand that because it was at that time the Battle of Turubang (1335) occurred as stated by Sarr, Becker and others. Even the Wolofs were already present long before the 14th century never mind the Serer people who have been present for thousand of years. Further as substantiated in the article with credible sources which all backs up each other, the Almoravid wars on Takrur due to religion (Islam) led to the Serers of Takrur who were finally defeated in Battle to leave Takrur and headed south. That was in the 11th century during Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar and War Jabi. Even those “Takrurien” Serers came south long before the 14th century to join their other Serer relatives (See Daggs).

Link 2. http://books.google.com/books?id=ip0RAAAAMAAJ&q=Finally,+according+to+Pierret,+Serer+means+in+Egyptian+%22he+who+determines+the+limits+of+the+temples.%22+This+meaning+conforms+with+the+religious+fervor+of+the+Serer+who+are+today+one+of+the+few+peoples+in+Senegal+who+have+not+yet&dq=Finally,+according+to+Pierret,+Serer+means+in+Egyptian+%22he+who+determines+the+limits+of+the+temples.%22+This+meaning+conforms+with+the+religious+fervor+of+the+Serer+who+are+today+one+of+the+few+peoples+in+Senegal+who+have+not+yet&hl=en&ei=DnlnTpSiDIXagAe1mozYDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

This link tells us about the meaning of Serer according to Pierret, which tallies with Diop. The article had already address this point with notable sources as evident in the article. However, since there are controversies regarding the meaning of the word, it is relevant to address those as well. Furthermore, since there are sources such as Schuh which contradicts Diop’s thesis, it is relevant and prudent to note those as well. Therefore, the article had accounted for both sides of the argument before your vandalism as discussed earlier.

Link 3 http://books.google.com/books?id=EZLF3T-5tlgC&pg=PA706&lpg=PA706&dq=serer+wolof+north+east+africa&source=bl&ots=6ZlcoUiSsf&sig=zOFR1CQY5BWf2thxHjWIhmq9Q8Y&hl=en&ei=BMFiToPpH6HL0QGE142OCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

This link is the same as your first link (14th century migration of Serer from the “Northeast” which I have addressed above.

Link 4

http://www.inadev.org/profile_-_senegal.htm

This link is not a notable source. In any case, as the notable sources shows, the Serers were already present thousands of years ago and certainly not in 500 AD. Further, the wrongly held view that the Toucouleurs and only the Toucouleurs ruled over Takrur is wrong as evident in La Civilisation Sereer. Cosaan ; La Civilisation Sereer Pangool; Vestiges historiques by Becker.

Link 5

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcsJosc239YC&pg=PA89&dq=serer+egypt&hl=en&ei=kYRnTqTPM-jd0QHFktXXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=serer%20egypt&f=false

This link is simply quoting Diop which I have already raised above. The article has acknowledged both sides as indicated above.

Link 6

http://books.google.com/books?id=VuEZAAAAYAAJ&q=serer+egypt&dq=serer+egypt&hl=en&ei=BoVnTvvkFInz0gGL24H8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBDge

This link like the previous is quoting Diop. Again the article had addressed both sides prior to your vandalism. Further, the “Poular” (Fula) are not “ancient Toucouleurs” the Tocouleurs are not ancient but just like the Wolof a métissage (see Diop and Taal) .

Link 7

http://www.east-buc.k12.ia.us/01_02/AF/Sen/his.htm

This link just like link 4 is not notable. In fact, it copied word for word your 4th link.

The so called Nile Valley or Egyptian origin argument has already been stated in the article before you vandalised it. However, there are other sources which contradicts that claim and it is paramount that they are mentioned too. In fact, along with the ultra traditionalist Serers who want nothing to do with Egypt, other respectable scholars have also refuted Diop's thesis as noted in the article. Issa Laye Thiaw is a well respected Serer scholar on Serer Religion and history. You just vandalised his quotations in order to make a point. In future please discuss your intentions in the talk pages before vandalising Serer related articles. I’m sure like me you want Serer articles to be the best they can possibly be, but vandalising the articles helps nobody more so the general reader who may or may not be of Serer heritage.

Tamsier (talk) 10:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Tamsier, here we agree with each other. The Egyptian idea is garbage. It seems that for every nation in Africa, there's someone who claims either that they're either a Lost Tribe of Israel or lost Egyptians, with their language written on the pyramids, or sometimes both (as with the Ewe). Very occasionally, there may be some truth to such claims (the Lemba of Mozambique turn out to have Jewish ancestry in the paternal line, for example), but mostly it seems to be insecurity stemming from colonialism. Given the loads of nonsense written on these ideas, we'd need very good sources indeed before accepting them.

However, this is not vandalism. Vandalism is purposefully falsifying data (like saying there are only 36 Serer and they live in Bali), or changing the article to say things like "I love Jody" or "you suck". Adding nonsense because you believe it is just foolishness. Big difference. — kwami (talk) 05:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

• @ kwami I for one am open minded about the issue hence the reason the article showed both sides with notable sources before all my sources and edits were were deleted regarding this issue. I believe that you Kwami have also deleted Henri Gravrand's report which included historical and archaeological evidence from the pre-history section. I don't know whether that was by mistake or what. The quotes were from a notable sources. Henri Gravrand is also another well respected scholar on Serer history and religion so I don't know whether that quote and sources were deleted by mistake when reverting the IP user's edit or what. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamsier (talk • contribs) 12:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

99.44.204.232. You have been warned. Stop it now.

I have invited you to the Serer people talk page to discuss and settle our differences but you never showed up, instead you kept on undoing and deleting reliable sources and adding nothing of value to this article. You have deleted all the reliable sources I have cited, copied and pasted some of my sources in order to prove your foolish claims. You have added nothing new to the Serer people article and totally destroyed the "Notes" section with your copying and pasting. You even copied and pasted some of the remarks of Issa Laye Thiaw (the historian I cited) by mistake when deleting my edits which now shows up in the Note section. In your desire to make a foolish point about a Nile Valley migration, you have totally destroyed the credibility of this article. Even your own sources contradicted themselves. You have totally destroyed this article. Why can't you register like all credible people rather than hiding behind an IP address? If your desire is to destroy the Serer people article, you have succeeded. Well done. People have invested a lot of time and effort in this article for you to come here and destroy it. You have been warned. Stop it now.

Tamsier (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Too LONG.com

Someone did not want to leave anything out. It is TOOOOOOOO LONG, even the references is too long. there are guidelines to structure and length of an article. Split it up, create stubs and new pages on History of the Serer People. I cannot read it because of the structure, more over I do not want to read it. It is a turn off.

In future please remember to sign your post per Wiki's policy. It helps everyone which I'm sure you can appreciate. That said your comments and recommendations have been duly noted. Thank you. Tamsier (talk) 03:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Having compared the view history it is apparent that it is user:Halaqah I'm responding to. Again, thank you for your comments and recommendations and remember to sign your posts according to Wiki's policy. As regard to the lenght of the article and sources, have you seen the Islam article? Tamsier (talk) 03:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

@ Halaqah - The split template you've put on the Medieval history of the Serer people has been removed for the following reasons:

1. All ethnic groups have a history section under one article and the Serer people should not be denied that. Just because Serer people have a documented pre-history and medieval history does not mean they should be penalised. In fact to ease reading, the two phases of history have been separated as evident in the article. Since by your account you have not taken the time to read the article and "do not want to read it" please refrain from placing templates or passing judgements about articles you have not read.

2. The "medieval history to present" section of the article is virtually all about the Serer people's strong and successful resistance against Islamization and Arabization for almost a thousand years. With respect to Wiki's policy regarding "good faith", it is noteworthy to mention here that Halaqah is a Muslim and wants that section of the article decapitated from the main Serer people' article. Halaqah has of course tried for several years to distant Islam from Islamic slavery in East Africa eventhough substantial evidence proves otherwise (see talk page and Islam and slavery). This is just some of the distortion of Islam by certain Islamists, and the Medieval history of the Serer people they want to mold nicely in order to fit what they deem as acceptable in line with the history of Islam. With respect, the history of the Serer people cannot be molded to dance to the tune of Islam. It never has and never will even if an authorised Administrator finally backs your recommendation. Tamsier (talk) 05:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

We go by sources. If you think that the sources support your position, and you can't work out a settlement, then you can follow the dispute resolution guidelines and present your evidence or invent outside review or comment. One thing that will get you into trouble, though, is using a style that reads like personal opinion rather than reflecting the sources. I have no idea myself; history is not my strong point. — kwami (talk) 06:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer if Tamsier, leave his Islamic fears and editing the editor outside of wikipedia. We can have that debate on a forum. When we come here your views should be limited to the article in question not what you think my personal view on Islam and Slavery is. I actually do not recall doing too much work on Islam and Slavery. People who already have religious, or ethic confidence can live with some bad stuff, or unfavorable reviews. In any event, here are the facts. LENGTH is too long. It can be stubbed and put on a separate page. Dont care what you want to debate, the glory of Islam in Africa, it still has rules. One famous rule you should observe is reliable sources or in the case of this page just sources, cuz right now we dont even have bad sources.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

All the Serer articles are thoroughly sourced and I am sure any person a with a small degree of intellect would realise that. If articles are sourced and certain people are either too lazy or do not have the intellect to read it or in certain cases, explicitly state that they will not read it, then that is their prerogative. I cannot be held responsible for that. I would advise that people take their own advise and comment on the article rather than me personally or spend their entire time trying to wage edit wars against me. It disrupts Wiki and is not good for Wiki. Tamsier (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Do not put back that content it not reliable and verifiable by wiki standards reliable sources, it is not even accurate. Source from better places, and books not out of print. Try John Thorton or Basil Davidson or Molefi Asante. Do not lecture people on wiki after violating NPOV, If this habit of copy editing, propaganda, and NPOV violation as well as advocacy it will disrupt your contributions. You are not adding constructive contributions. And respect Wiki Civility before you get an admin warning again.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:15, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Removed content per NPOV

I have removed this as it is a NPOV and comes across as stereotypical and propaganda. in the interest of transparency I have placed the text I have removed so others can cross check it and comment on or understand my edits. Other edits re-arranged the material to fit a wiki type leade. See Wiki lead for more on how to do that

The Serer people have a reputation among other ethnic groups as hardworking, exceptional farming and fishing skills, honourable and very industrious people especially recently, a profession they looked down on as ignoble and vulgar in the past (that is trade). Highly represented in all major professions including politics, commerce, medicine, literature, law and art, especially in Senegal where they are numerous, has resulted in being referred to as "the true elite of Senegal."

--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

• I see no reason for removing this text which are not only sourced from notable sources, but also relevant in the context used as they outline the characteristics or qualities of the Serer people. We are writing about people after all so their characteristics or qualities which is how others view them is paramount and deserves to be mentioned. Tamsier (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Request removal of hatnote

Please remove the hatnote at the top of the page. Serer is now a DAB page and Rafael Calvo Serer is listed there. noq (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems the hatnote has been removed. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Diop - What is the issue now

Edit war over this:

Professor Cheikh Anta Diop proved that the name "Serer" derives from the ancient Egyptian language and that it means "those who trace the lines of the temples."(See also Cheikh Anta Diop's work titled: Nations Nègres et culture: de l'antiquité Nègre Égyptienne aux problèmes culturels de l'Afrique noire d'aujourd'hui. 1954).

My principle issue is the word I have highlighted. It is a NPOV issue. Had it said "Diop claims, or proposed that..." then I have no problem with it. And I vote for its inclusion as it is relevant to the Serer people. Plus I love Diop and trust much of his work. Looking at the article I see far more serious nonsense, So applying that threshold I am not to up in arms about this inclusion. --— --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Even with that, it's a matter of WP:WEIGHT. Diop's been debunked. Do we really want to include nonsense in our articles? I suppose if we had many different opinions, it might be worth a very brief mention. But it's not appropriate as the only opinion.

Also, this nonsense about the Serer being the original inhabitants of the area, esp. as we then go on to talk about the people who were there before the Serer. — kwami (talk) 10:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I will have to look at Diop's argument. And other opinions would be good. It would be good if the IP editor (who might be one of our old friend LOL) explains himself on the talk page ;-]. One of my minor points is had this been a high level article it would def deserve this level of scrutiny but the thing is hardly even C class right now.

but I support the rmv of that original people thing. I mean even without reading you know it makes no sense, they arrived in AD times, are we to believe it was only monkeys and palm tree there b4? --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to let you know an editor has re-inserted the Diop stuff again. I didnt undo it, b4 adding new tags. I am looking at this general article and it is so terrible it is not even funny. re:Diop I think it would be better to balance it with a statement as discussed above, since you know the issues with it (better than me) Maybe it is the best soln. up to you. It is just starting to be too much energy divided between too few Jedi on Wiki-- and the quality is slipping, not because we dont see the issues but the energy it takes to fix them all.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• @ kwami I for one have tried several times to remove that prove word from the IP user when they first put it in as one can see when I told them to stop here [1] as well as inviting them to a discussion here [2] but they never showed up. They also done the same thing at the Wolof people article. Although I have put both sides in the Serer article according to notable sources even including Diop himself (for), the editor in their wisdom left the sources for and deleted the against edits with notable sources such as Schuh and Thiaw. They were all deleted including the sources themselves which is now becoming a regular occurent on Wiki not just by this IP user. I was informed by a reputable editor long ago that if one has a another notable source to that given, one cite their sources underneath rather than deleting the other notable sources. In fact, I believe the original quote was "according to Diop" or something like that, but certainly not "prove". Diop didn't prove anything he merely proposed a theory. Some academics accepted it and others rejected it. Hence the reason my original edits included both sides of the argument on this issue. As regards to the Serer being the "original inhabitants", I can't recall using the word "original". I think the article said "oldest inhabitants" and not "original" which is backed up by several notable sources including Gamble, Salmon and Njie, Dianou, Mwakikagile etc.

Tamsier (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, they could be the oldest surviving population of the area where they reside, but not of Senegambia as a whole. The Wolof may be immigrants in the Serer area, but not where they're from originally. And older than the Balanta? Cangin? Jola? There's no reason to think that all of what falls in the modern boundaries of Senagal was once Serer.

As for Diop, this is pseudohistory. It's not enough to have sources, they need to be reliable, and Diop's been debunked. We should use 2ary sources for any controversial claim. See WP:REDFLAG. — kwami (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• @ kwami - The article is about the Serer group as a whole as evident in the way treated which was there even before I started editing this page, which makes total sense since the article is about an ethnic group. Interesting you brought in the Jola people. In fact, the orginal opening line referred to the Serer and Jola as the oldest inhabitants which was backed up by some of the above sources whilst some of the other sources only referred to the Serer. Hence the reaaon why there were more sources cited than might be necessary to avoid any doubt or accusation that one is trying to "cook it up". However, all those sources and edits have now been deleted with the constant war on this article and others by certain editors. The Jola issue is very interesting (see Kal - Joking relationship section) they are linked to the Serer by blood according to oral legend of both groups (the legend of Jambonge and Ougeney (sometimes spelt Eugeny) see Taal and Mwakikagile. Since I had already dealt with the Jola issue (which has now been deleted thanks to the edit wars), there was no need to talk about the legend of Jambonge and Ougeney here inspite of the fact that, there are sources for that. Besides I personally did not have the time but somebody else may decide to that if they so wish. Further, since this is an article about Serer people, there was no point in referring to the Jola again unless relevant since the opening statement on this issue had already done that.

As regards to Diop, as you can see on my discussion (see top section) I am very opened minded about the issue and tried to put both sides of the argument. Regardless of my opinions about Diop, Diop is a highly respected scholar and is quoted and requoted by several respected scholars i.e Pierret etc. The only thing I personally think (but up to others to decide) is in favour of Diop is the archaeological report by Gravrand in Pangool couple of years after Diop's death which some historians claim vindicate Diop's thesis. Gravrand is one of the most respected scholars and authors on Serer history and religion. His report was based on archaeological evidence and the reports of pre-historians which backs up Becker. That too (Gravrand) has been deleted. It was there to avoid any accusations of withholding information for the "for side" of the argument to balance out the "against side" of the argument with sources such as Schuh. The ethnomym section was under developement because it is a very controversial issue with two warring sides. The ultra traditionalist Serers who wants nothing to do with Egypt and in leak with the "against" scholars and the "for" scholars on the other side. Tamsier (talk) 00:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

POV and "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tags

• The editor who put these tags especially the "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tag in the Medieval history section should support their case here with sources. Putting any old tag on Serer related articles without discussing it on the talk pages is unprofessional. All the sources mentioned in the Medieval history section are from notable sources most of whom are are well known and highly respected within the field such as Diouf, Klein, Gravrand, Asante etc. These people are not advocacy or lobbying groups, but professional historians many of whom have authored dozens of books. If you have any evidence to prove otherwise, please bring it here so people can scrutinize it. Tamsier (talk) 13:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I am going to allow a grace on this section and suggest the person who wrote it to clean it up per wikipedia NPOV policy. It would be better they do it than I do it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• You are the one who placed the "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tag on this article. Perhaps it would help if you tell us why you have placed that template with sources so that people can have a understanding why you deem it fit to place such a template on the article in particular. Tamsier (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• I see you have now removed the tag without justifying why you placed it there in the first place. Tamsier (talk) 17:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up NPOV violations of Medieval history to present

This section is too long and once clean will see how to split it up. But the commentary is being taken out. We just need the history per the sources. I will review the sources from New Perspectives on Islam in Senegal. Because at first glance the way it is used here is very different to how the actual book reads. So it becomes synth when we cherry pick for advocacy reasons. Dont worry I have three excellent books to add to the ref God Alone Is King : Islam and Emancipation in Senegal : The Wolof Kingdoms of Kajoor and Bawol, 1859-1914 (Social History of Africa). and Muslim Societies in African History (New Approaches to African History), not to mention the best book yet edited by Randall L. Pouwels. Funny thing is none of these 3 books take this tone.

What I am noticing is despite being a very long article on a very small ethnic group. What is happening is duplicated information from the same sources. Daggs (who I will need to verify), Klein and another person. The info repeats over and over again the agenda of the editor who was blocked for advocacy and other behaviors. It seems to have one agenda, not to discuss the history of the people, but to insert Islam as a problem. The history is not a mystery, it is not hidden. But this article should deal with that once and move on, not in every section. It should also reflect the source and I will bring in the balance where needed. Moreover we do not need the author comments between the referenced material.

Below is evidence of what I am removing

• In any case, all these false accounts against the Serer people surfaced after 18 July 1867
• any respect Saer Matti may have had from the Serer Ultra Orthodox people turned to dust when he exercised such cowardice (it is clearly a statement I would expect in a forum or an article)
• the Islamic wars that had ravaged Takrur in the 11th century which led to Serer migration from Takrur only relates to those Serer people living in Takrur at the time.
• For those Serers that remained, they will face constants wars brought on by the Almoravids and their African converts who have allied with them. Stubbornly attached to their religion, the Serers of Takrur continued to resist Islam throughout the medieval era before their full exodus to Sine-Saloum and old Baol. (this opinion is repeated maybe 6 times all over the page)
• In Sine, the Serers lived in peace and practised their religion (good guys tone)
• As followers of the Orthodox Serer Religion, they looked down at those who engage in slave trading. - No they killed their captives (women and children included)
• As regards to Saer Matti Bâ (son of Maba) another jihadist, too much credit is given to the French which led to his defeat at the Battle of Kumbof 1886 which forced him to seek the protection of the British governor in The Gambia where he would later die.
• Such false account that the Guelwars conquered Sine was invented by certain Senegambian Muslims e.g. Wolof, Fula, Toucouleur and to a lesser extend the Mandinkas. (guess who added this? certainly no Wolof).

I will not waste my time critique what is clearly the work of an advocate.But I am putting it here as evidence. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• Interesting. I also have those books in my library. In fact I was reading Searing only last week after you instigated for an administrator to block me two weeks ago. I glad to work with anyone who is "sincere" about making Serer related articles better or Senegambian or African articles better than they are. Happy editing and remember protocol: "never delete an edit with notable source, if you have a different source, cite it underneath". As for the additional tags you have added to the Medieval history section, I shall deal with those in my own time.

My advise, do refrain from the name calling. It is unprofessional. Tamsier (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I am removing yet again the following:

Professor Cheikh Anta Diop proved that the name "Serer" derives from the ancient Egyptian language and that it means "those who trace the lines of the temples."

Numerous scholars have worked on the case of the origin of Serers, and as a result, it has been found that the Serers originate in the Nile Valley. The Serers migrated away from the Nile Valley onto Senegal at 300 B.C.E.

You might want to check my talk page for the intellectual level of the person who added these. Funny, Diop is Serer and concludes that the pyramids were built by Serer. I've heard Ewe scholars who, funny enough, think that they weren't Serer but Ewe. It's easy to dig up refs for pseudohistory, but that's not acceptable in an encyclopedia. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and if either of these claims were convincing, we'd find them all over the place. — kwami (talk) 17:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah just saw the remark. I didnt know he was Serer I thought Diop was Wolof. I would agree with such a large claim it needs something else. And would by now have a heavy academic debate thread following it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I shouldn't have said that. He comes from a Serer area, but that doesn't mean he is Serer. — kwami (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• @ kwami I have responded to you (see above - top) regarding that user IP sentiment about Diop. By the way Diop is neither Serer nor Wolof but Lebou. The surname Diop or Jobe (English spelling is Lebou). The Lebous are associated with the Wolof but totally distinct.

Tamsier (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment The person who added that may not be a Serer at all. They have also made their way in the Wolof people article. Tamsier (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Truth is truth, there is nothing you dumbasses can do to change the fact that the Serer people originate in the Nile Valley, they migrated from there onto west Africa in 300 B.C.E. They were temple and pyramid builders in ancient Egypt and ancient Sudan, thus is why "Serer" means "those who trace the lines of the temples". You can attempt to continue to hide these facts but I will continue to pulverize the bullshit you all post about the origin of Serers. If you're not African(or if you're a Euro-centric "African"), leave African history alone. We(meaning, those whom are actually African), are the only ones truly in position to speak about African history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MenAfuraka (talk • contribs) 19:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There's plenty we can do about it: we can WP:block you for disrupting the encyclopedia. Wikipedia isn't about what you imagine to be WP:truth, it's about what we can document. — kwami (talk) 22:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• @ (User:MenAfuraka - Hi, I am glad that you are passionate about this subject and others. But as a brotherly advise, I would recommend you read all the messages left for you on your talk page here [3] before responding to any editor or making any further edit on Wiki especially the Serer people article. I have also left you there a message which I hope you will take into account. I don't want to see you get into trouble. Also, do not allow youself to sink so low by using this kind of language. Back up your argument with sources and leave it at that. Please read your messages and cool down. Tamsier (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)