Talk:Albert Ball

Ball's Death

I thought Albert Ball was killed by machine gunners placed in a clock tower which he frequently flew by to check the time when coming back from a dogfight.--Geedubber 11:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are many versions with regards to Ball's death. One is the machine gun story as you mentioned. An other is that Ball and Richthofen did indeed face eachother in Ball's final fight. Both planes went down after the dogfight, Ball died, Richthofen survived. Although Germany officially credited Lothar von Richthofen with downing Ball, there was little or no evidence to substantiate the claim.

Moments before Ball's plane crashed, a Leutnant Hailer, a German officer on the ground, witnessed Ball's undamaged aircraft emerge alone from the clouds, 200 feet above the ground in an inverted position with a dead prop. So most likely Ball encountered engine failure and simply crashed killing him. Nonentheless the Germans officially credited Lothar with Ball's killing so it should be mentioned but perhaps with a proviso as to the doubts.

Given the eye witness account, I personally, subscribe to the latter version - Ball engaged a German plane, got lost in the clouds and got disoriented, probably stalled and encountered engine trouble and then crashed... Why don't I subscribe to the machine gun theory? According to several sources, neither Ball's bodily remains nor the plane did show "battle damage" (in other words; bullet holes)... As to the identity of the German pilot... he was from Richthofen's flying circus... that's for sure but wether it was really Lothar is an other matter as some say that Lothar was recovering from battle wounds at the time of Ball's death and was thus inactive. --fdewaele 10 January 2006, 21:30 CET

okay thanks --Geedubber 20:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The clock tower story seems to stem from Arch Whitehouse, who never minded tweaking reality in pursuit of drama. His "factual" books are some great young lads' fiction.

Consider this. Ball was a trained engineer, renowned for his perfectionism. He even had a holster custom-built in his cockpit for his pistol. And yet he doesn't carry a watch, even though he is expected to fill out a combat report complete with the time of significant events? Was he going to find a handy clock tower after every combat?

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for Verification

Does anyone know what the anonymous user felt needed to be verified? Cjrother 20:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know. I have removed the tag. The article seems fine to me as far as referencing goes. It seems consistent with his article in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article. Capitalistroadster 06:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture caption error

The aircraft behind ball in the photo captioned "... in front of his Nieuport 11" is not a Nieuport 11. The interplane struts on the Nieuport were V-shaped, not parallel as shown in the photo. The aircraft in the photo is also not any of the other types mentioned in the article as having been flown operationally by Ball, but I am not sure what it is. My best guess is a Caudron G.III. --August H.

I'm a bit dubious about that Caudron G.III identification. I've got a small pic in Encyclopedia of World Aircraft (edited by David Donald, Prospero Books, 1997) that shows a lateral strut from the interplane strut to the fuselage; it's not visible in the photo here, & should be. The one that is visible here runs the opposite direction, & isn't in EOWA's. Anybody got better pix? Or info that puts Ball in a G.III? Trekphiler 15:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a Caudron G.III - probably at a training unit. Soundofmusicals 04:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

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Ball trained on Caudrons at the Ruffy-Bauman flying school. (See Albert Ball VC, page 31.) Georgejdorner (talk) 04:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

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"Trailing only Red Baron" at time of his death?

Someone deleted this - I think it may very well be true, and have reinstated it. But has anyone had a look at what other ace's scores were in May 1917 ?? - most would have been well under their final tallies, of course. I'm sure Udet hadn't already shot down more than 40 EA at this time, for instance.

The main reservation I would have is the futility of comparing "scores" - without maligning Ball, or doubting his probity for one moment, the German and British scoring systems were so different. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 09:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

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Yes, I have checked this particular factoid, and it is true. And, yes, given the uncertainties of verifying ANY aerial victories by anyone in any war, it is essentially meaningless, flashy and 'peacockish'.

Georgejdorner (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

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Whoops, correction. Guynemer scored his 45th victory on 5 June 1917, two days before Ball's death. Therefore, Ball's tally of 44 was second to Guynemer at the time of Ball's death.

Georgejdorner (talk) 05:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

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• Sorted now in lead -- tks George! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

A-Class-review

I have removed the A-Class=current from the duplicate template on this page. If you wish to initiate an A-Class review please read the A-Class review instructions. There is no need to duplicate the whole template, adding A-Class=current to the existing template will work. Please also see the MILHIST Academy page on how to write an A-Class article. Giving a quick review myself, the sentences seem to be very stubby. I would try to merge the sentences into paragraphs. If you have any questions, you can leave them on my talkpage. Regards, Woody (talk) 22:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

After going through the article I have a question:

• "It was no surprise then, that upon his graduation at the age of 17, his father staked him to a start in business as Universal Engineering Works in a building next door to the house of his birth." What do you mean by this? Did he start at Universal Engineering Works at the request of his father? Thanks, Woody (talk) 13:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Quotations

I have moved the quotations from the article to here as they need to be referenced to a reliable source. Once they are sourced they can be integrated into the text or duplicated over to wikiquote if needs be. Regards, Woody (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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“ Won't it be nice when all this beastly killing is over, and we can enjoy ourselves and not hurt anyone. I hate this game! ”

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"Albert Ball, VC", page 191. Delete "I hate this game!"

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/ball.php includes "I hate this game..."

No source for the second exclamation point. Georgejdorner (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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“ The S.E.5 has turned out a dud. It's a great shame, for everybody expects such a lot from them. It is a rotten machine. ”

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http://albertball.homestead.com/Recollections.html

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/militaryaircraft/p/se5.htm

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/ball.php

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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(He later came to appreciate the qualities of the S.E.5 - scoring 11 victories in it.)

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“ I do not think anything bad about the German. He is just a poor chap with very little guts, trying to do his best. Nothing makes me feel more rotten than to see them go down. ”

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"Albert Ball, VC", page 78.

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

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“ ...He (Captain. Maybery) and Captain. Ball and Lieutenant. Rhys Davids did more harm to the morale of the German Flying Corps than any other fifteen pilots between them. They all, always, took on any odds. They were too brave and reckless. ”

(Captain Duncan Grinnell-Milne, Commanding officer of 56th squadron RFC, on hearing news of the death of Captain Richard Maybery.)

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http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/rhysdavids.htm

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

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Family details and blue plaque

Noting here some family details that might be warranted in the article, but maybe not. It does provide more context though. The brother's name was Cyril. The sister's name was Lois (her married name was Anderson). The memorial at the church names another sister called Hilda, who died in infancy. The mother (Harriet or Harriett) died in 1931. The father (Albert) was born in 1863 and died in 1946. He was Lord Mayor of Nottingham twice, once in 1909/10 once in 1935/36, and he was knighted in 1924. His obituary was published in The Times, which is the source for the information heren (though that is a wiki, so the page linked to may change). Also, following up on the Lenton Listener mention of a blue plaque, I looked and it seems one wasn't erected there back in the 1980s (at least I found no mention of it), but one was erected recently (May 2011) in Grantham where he went to school (though it was one of several schools he attended). That doesn't seem to be an official blue plaque, but a local scheme, so I'm only noting it here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Auction of letter

Found this news item from 2005 about the auction of a letter. It is something I would add to the article, but I'm not sure how rare this is. If this is something that doesn't happen often, then I would add it, but wanted to check here first. Carcharoth (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Date of VC investiture

I'm reading The Court Circular from The Times for Monday, Jul 23, 1917; pg. 9; Issue 41537; col B, and this states that Ball's parents were presented with his VC during an investiture held by the King in the forecourt of Buckingham Palace on 21 July 1917. Two points:

• (1) This date contradicts the date of 22 July 1917 given elsewhere. Which source is more reliable?
• (2) There is this picture on the picture the past website, which gives the location as Nottingham and the date as June. I suspect that this is totally wrong, but trying to check that is what led me to the article in The Times.

There were many other VCs presented that day (21 July) as well, and probably none the next day, so unless there is some explanation for all this, I think a mistake has been made here somewhere. Carcharoth (talk) 19:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Cost of the Memorial Homes

Not sure what to do with this reference (from Flight & the Aircraft Engineer, Volume 10, Part 2, 1918) to the Memorial Homes being intended to cost £10,000. It is a bit useless at the moment, because it is only an estimate, and what is really needed is a figure for how much they actually cost, but I thought it might be worth putting here in case anyone wanted to follow that up. Carcharoth (talk) 19:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I spoke too soon. I found the article in The Times, Friday, Sep 08, 1922; pg. 7; Issue 43131; col F. The bits of interest are that they were opened "yesterday" (i.e. agrees with 7 September date in other sources) by "Lieutenant Colonel Leslie Wilson, M.P." and that a message was read out from the King:

"It is fitting that the homes should bear the name of one destined to live pre-eminent among the sons of Nottingham, who, in the Great War, as in the days of Charles I, gave their all for King and country."

More to the point of what I said above, the article says that "The capital value of the gift exceeds £20,000". So that answers the question I had. Is it worth putting that in this article? Carcharoth (talk) 19:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Memorial unveiling

If another reliable source is needed for the details of the memorial unveiling, it was briefly (26 lines) covered in The Times, Friday, Sep 09, 1921; pg. 11; Issue 42821; col C. The squadron of airplanes flying overhead is also mentioned, as is the fact that the unveiling was by Sir Hugh Trenchard. There are additional details, such as the parents laying a tribute of blue and white flowers in shape of a propeller, but the local newspaper reports likely had more on this. There was, for example, an article in the Nottingham Guardian, 'Homage to V.C. Airman: The Ball Memorial Unveiled', 20430, 9 September 1921, p.6. Carcharoth (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Contemporary newspaper reports

While I have the database open, I might as well list all the articles from The Times that were found between the beginning of 1917 (there will, of course, be articles before this date as well) and the end of 1930, for the search term "albert ball". I'm only listing those articles where Ball appears in the title (i.e. mentions in 'news in brief' and other columns are not picked up).

• Captain A. Ball's Fate. Fight With Three Enemy Airmen., A Striking Series Of Victories (The Times Friday, May 18, 1917; pg. 5; Issue 41481; col C)
• Captain Ball's Death Announced. Famous Airman Buried Near Lille. (The Times Monday, Jun 04, 1917; pg. 8; Issue 41495; col F)
• The Victoria Cross. 29 Officers And Men Decorated., Captain Ball, V.C., D.S.O., M.C. (The Times Saturday, Jun 09, 1917; pg. 4; Issue 41500; col A)
• Hostel For The Maimed. A Memorial To Captain Ball. (The Times Thursday, Jul 05, 1917; pg. 8; Issue 41522; col E)
• Letters to the Editor (Albert Ball). (The Times Tuesday, Sep 07, 1920; pg. 13; Issue 42509; col D )
• The Memorial To Captain Ball, V.C. (Picture Gallery) (The Times Wednesday, Sep 07, 1921; pg. 5; Issue 42819; col C )
• Captain Ball. V.C. Memorial Unveiled At Nottingham. (The Times Friday, Sep 09, 1921; pg. 11; Issue 42821; col C )
• A Memorial To Captain Albert Ball, V.C. The King's Message. (The Times Friday, Sep 08, 1922; pg. 7; Issue 43131; col F)

This is only to give a rough idea of what is there. And secondary sources should still be preferred to contemporary newspaper reports, but I think the above will still be useful. The Letter to the Editor is Ball's father, writing in his capacity as Mayor of Nottingham (a different post to that of Lord Mayor?) pleading that ex-servicemen be given priority for jobs. Carcharoth (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to update this section, the other place for contemporary news reports is the various local papers (though I'm not sure what the major local titles were in Nottingham at the time in the 1910s and 1920s) and also the Flight magazine (see Flight International), with the archives at Flightglobal.com. The search interface for those archives is here, but is pretty useless as it can't seem to cope with exact phrases. So I searched the domain name with Google and got the following results for Albert Ball and Captain Ball. The news covered is pretty much the same as that covered by The Times, the difference being that the pages of issues of Flight magazine can be linked to and are (at least currently) freely available, unlike the archives of The Times which you need some form of subscription or library access for. Anyway, I'm going to list a selection of links from those searches below (there is more, but only listing some here - all these links are to a PDF viewer).

• Memorial Service
• Under-Secretary for War asked about Captain Ball's fate
• His sister's marriage and mention of his fiancee
• Honour from the Aero Club of America
• Statue memorial unveiling
• Something on the Albert Ball VC scholarships
• Captain Ball Hostel for the maimed named in London

That last entry is reporting the same thing as The Times did in the entry above titled 'Hostel For The Maimed'. This hostel was opened on 5 July 1917, after the memorial service in Nottingham, but before the VC investiture at Buckingham Palace. The hostel (called the 'Captain Ball Hostel' in the report) was for disabled soldiers, located in Mare Street, Hackney, London, and Ball's father attended the opening, with the honours done by Brigadier-General (later Air Commodore) Lionel Charlton. Also in attendance were Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen (junior government minister at the time - at the Pensions Ministry), Sir Charles Wyndham and Sir Frederick Milner (ex-MP who worked with ex-servicemen). The funds of over £10,000 were provided by members of the Eccentric Club (the report in The Times gives the location as '4 King Edward's Road' and states that this hostel "originated with the offer of £1,000 by a member of the club as a memorial to Captain Ball, and in a month £3,000 was collected"). The original building is almost certainly not there any more, but I can easily travel to that location (as opposed to travelling to Nottingham) and might wander up that street to see what is there now (probably completely changed, as I said, but you never know). Anyway, I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere else (apart from the report in The Times). Do any of the book-length sources mention this hostel in London? Carcharoth (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

WWI Resource Centre pages (and external links)

Listing here seven pages from the WWI Resource Centre related to Ball:

• Article 2
• Article 3
• Article 4
• Article 5
• Article 7
• Article 8
• pictures

Some may be of use. Some articles (judging by the last link) are no longer there. Carcharoth (talk) 22:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

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Greetings, all,

While this series contains some fascinating nuggets of information about Ball's life, the old reliable source issue raises its nasty little head. Are these website "pages" accurate? Who vouches for their accuracy? And just which year are they referring to, anyway?

They do shade on inaccuracy in at least one instance. Ball did not surpass Georges Guynemer's total victories; Guynemer had #45 confirmed on 5 June 1917, two days before Ball's death. A niggling point, but true, even though the claim is widespread in literature. However, given time delays in confirmation of victory claims, Ball may not have heard of Guynemer's latest triumphs and/or they had not yet been approved.

I would recommend that, if used, these links be placed under External links. That way, they are reader accessible without WP deeming them reliable.

Georgejdorner (talk) 00:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

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UPDATE:

The above links trace back to The Nottingham Evening Post. A search keyed into their archives gives this list: http://www.highbeam.com/Search?FilterByPublicationID=436401&FilterByPublicationName=Nottingham+Evening+Post&searchTerm=%22Albert+Ball%22

Chock full of info on both Albert Balls, Sr. and Jr. Now, back to the action below:

Georgejdorner (talk) 09:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

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I wouldn't even put them under external links. I provided them here purely so that those editing this article can read them and then (based on other reading) judge for themselves whether to follow up on anything mentioned there, or not, as the case may be. Certainly the pages I linked above can't be used as sources themselves, as the publication history and level of reliability is not at all clear. Having said that, the same might be said of the article in The Lenton Listener (by which I mean that the reliability could be questioned). I found out here that the 1981 article in The Lenton Listener was by an S. Zaleski. The webpage with the article on it says itself that: "The Lenton Listener was a neighbourhood magazine produced between 1979-88 for Lenton Community Association" - that may (rightly or wrongly) get questioned as a reliable source. Even though that copy of the article is hosted by the Lenton Local History Society, which might mean something. Carcharoth (talk) 00:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I felt that the Listener was a cut above some of the other sources that we supplanted because of RS issues when we were upgrading the article, so didn't touch it, however if someone makes a fuss I expect we can replace those citations with others from ODNB or Bowyer. I think it's good to have a few complete online sources as refs, and am wary of the External Links section getting too big. I trimmed that section before submitting for GA/A reviews but now it's about as big as before -- better links, certainly, but still quite a few... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

In my experience, hardly any reviewers bother looking at external links, or they do so only to look for 'bloat' and ask for a reduction without considering quality. Relevance is far more important in my opinion. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a large but well-organised external links section if it helps the reader learn more about the topic. Some people get paranoid about external links because some articles are a magnet for spam, but this article isn't really one of those. If the external links do have to be trimmed, one of the first I'd drop is the Aerodrome one, as that doesn't seem to provide the reader with anything that isn't already available here. I'd also drop the ones about the French school once those are incorporated into the article - if need be, I'll go to a library, find the article in The Times and e-mail a scan to you. That would remove three external links and reduce the size of that section from nine lines to six, which is a reduction of one-third (really, this should be in a new section called 'External links' if we are going to discuss this properly). The external links I think are really good are the British pathe film reel, and the RFC tunic at the IWM. But I'm sure it is allowed to have more than two external links. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC) PS. I found the old version of the article when you started to trim the ELs, and they are here. I agree with the removals done there, though I did follow the link to Trent College and searched their website and found this (annoyingly, no date provided). Pity, as I thought it might confirm the currently commented out stuff about what is (or was?) displayed there. Carcharoth (talk) 01:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Putting two other tidbits here. Not really sources, but just something to note.

• (1) Computer animation of Ball's last flight - someone spent a long time doing that.
• (2) Stamps issued in 1976 for the 60th anniversary of 56 Squadron, with Ball featured.

Couldn't find a better source for the latter (not sure how reliable that source is). As far as images go, there are two I saw that I want to note here before I forgot: (i) Ball was featured on the cover of a history of the war; (ii) Ball was featured in French newspapers and magazines as well, not just English ones. Carcharoth (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Stained glass window and coat-of-arms

There is a puzzle that distracted me for a while, concerning a stained glass window. Not the Ball window in the Holy Trinity Church (that was an earlier generation), but the stained glass window(s) that Ball's father is said to have commissioned in the grand house he had built in Wollaton Park. This is described here, where the claim is that "Sir Albert commissioned a stained glass window to commemorate young Albert". I tried to find pictures, with some on property websites, but the closest I got was a picture with the motto "Sublime Petimus". When I plugged this into a search engine, I got a hit in Armorial Families, which contains descriptions of coats-of-arms. That includes:

BALL of Nottingham (H. Coll., 27 June 1924). Argent, a lion rampant sable, holding in the dexter forepaw a fireball proper between two roses gules, barbed and seeded also proper, on a chief of the second a representation of the badge of the R.F.C. or. Mantling sable and argent. Crest — On a wreath of the colours, in front of a dexter cubit arm grasping in the hand a fireball proper, two roses as in the arms. Motto — " Sublime petimus."

It seems that the father had a coat-of-arms drawn up for his family in 1924 that included some representation of the RFC? If this can be pinned down in a reliable source, it would be good, but the above is as far as I was able to go. I don't think it is enough at the moment, as I'm wary that estate agents trying to sell that property may have talked this up. Anyway, maybe there are sources out there that can shed some light on this. FWIW, 'sublime petimus' translates approximately as 'We seek what is on high' and seems closely related to the motto of the RFC college (later RAF cadet college): Superna Petimus (Latin: We seek higher things). An example of the latter is here (about an Royal Air Force Cadet College medal from the 1920s). Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Family details

There are some elements of the Ball family that if presented might help provide more context. Not too much, but I think some of the following is relevant:

• Various sources say her younger son's death greatly affected his mother (saying she didn't attend the memorial service and didn't speak about his death). She also died in 1931 and her husband later remarried. In passing, she is often referred to in source as Mary Page, though the memorial at the church refers to her as Harriett (with a double t).
• His sister, Lois, married a year later (and became Anderson), the details were given in an aviation magazine.

  "Miss Lois Ball, daughter of Alderman and Mrs. A. Ball. The Park, Nottingham, sister of the late Captain Albert Ball, VC, and of Lieutenant Cyril Ball, also the RFC, now a prisoner of war in Germany, was married in Nottingham on March 2nd [1918] to Lieutenant G. Stafford Anderson, Leicestershire Regiment." - Flight International, Volume 10 (1919), Issue 1, page 264

  The thing that relates this back to Ball is that the bridesmaids were his fiancee (Flora Young) and his brother Cyril's fiancee (Miss Marie Price).
• Ball's elder brother Cyril (as described above) was also an aviator (did he become one before Albert?), and was shot down in February 1918 and ended up a prisoner-of-war and returned after the war. Not sure whether he was initially reported missing or not, but that must have been terrible for the family and a great relief to learn he was alive (though mention of when Albert was reported missing and when the family were told of the death is not currently present in the article). Cyril is shown in uniform in pictures of the memorial service procession. There is more on him at the bottom of this page. I also came across a reference in a NYT article about Cyril being put on display in a cage in Germany, see here and here. There are also references in recent news stories (June 2011) to a daughter Cyril had, who has memories of visiting her grandfather (Sir Albert) in the 1930s.
• Ball's father was very wealthy (and became more so). I'm not sure the article makes that clear enough. He was a director of Austin, and had money to buy lots of land at various points (including the land he built a large house on in around 1926). His obituary was published in The Times and the amount left in his will is also mentioned in The Times and was over £110,000 which was a vast sum in 1946.

Clearly not all the above is needed for context, but I think some of it would help, even if only in a short couple of sentences or two at the bottom of the article in a set of notes. Carcharoth (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tks, was already planning to add the bit about his mother not attending the funeral service, etc. Her full name was Harriett (yes, a double "t", thank you!) Mary Page so will tweak in the article to cover all bases. The bit about his brother is also of interest, will see about that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • FWIW, a stained glass memorial window was erected to Lady Ball when she died (that church contains memorial windows to both Sir Albert's mother and his wife). I came across this detail in an updated version of the 1930 work on that Lenton parish church: here. That may or may not be a better source than the 1930 source currently in the article. It does use the 'Harriett' double-t spelling. Carcharoth (talk) 23:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

How about more info about his life?

Greetings, all,

With all due respect to a fallen hero, how about adding some more about his life, rather than just his afterlife?

Georgejdorner (talk) 23:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The amount added recently is actually not that much. Do a word count of what has changed recently. Turning from the question of how much has been added recently, to the question of overall balance, the lead section is currently 347 words, and of those only one sentence (the last) of 19 words is about events after Ball's death. In the main body of the article (leaving out the table at the end and the citations), you have 224 words on his early life, 3021 about World War I, 732 about the Victoria Cross and his legacy (if you exclude the VC citation). The five medal citations take up another 546 words. If that balance isn't right, what do you think the right balance should be? I would certainly favour adding more details of his life. He met Billy Bishop, I think. It would also be nice to include a few quotes from his letters home. Carcharoth (talk) 00:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

To George, I have added a couple of extra tidbits for his life and have some more to add. A few days ago I found a choice piece in a book describing him as having the perfect makeup for a killer in wartime given his 'proper' upbringing and lack of maturity, which contrasts nicely with a bit in Bowyer about how calling him a killer would be unfair, because of his continued remorse over sending his opponents to their deaths. So I'm aiming to put the one after the other in the appropriate spot (possible after the "lone wolf" bit).

To Carcharoth, we already have number of quotes from his letters, though there are one or two more we can add. I think the lead had the appropriate balance with the amount in the legacy section at the start of this review, given the add'l info now I might expand the lead a bit, but let's complete the additions/mods to the main body first. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm still looking around in various places, and I still have a list from the earlier stuff which I never finished. If I don't get round to that this week, I'll try and consolidate my notes here for future reference (for you, George and others). For now, I've completed looking at other articles on Wikipedia where Ball is mentioned or linked from, to see if anything obvious has been missed. What I found was the following: Ernest Foot (article claims Ball was his best friend); Bulwell (article lays claim to Ball for Bulwell, though I'm not sure how accurate that is); Red Baron (video game) (this is trivia/popular culture, though now quite an old computer game, from 1990); and three articles make claims related to memorials to Ball: Albert Toft, Arthur Brewill, Basil Baily. None of that is particularly needed (and not seen Toft mentioned before anywhere), but others might make more of these links (or be able to correct those articles if they are wrong). Carcharoth (talk) 02:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Bibliography

Summarising here the results of some searches I did for books specifically on this topic (as opposed to a few pages or sections or sentences within a larger book). I'm giving the number of pages as well, to help in assessing these:

• Briscoe, Walter Alwyn (1918). Captain Ball VC. 300 pages.
• Briscoe, Walter Alwyn (1921). The Boy Hero of the Air. 108 pages.
• Kiernan, Reginald Hugh (1933). Captain Albert Ball. 198 pages.
• Bowyer, Chaz (1977). Albert Ball VC. 280 pages.
• Collar, Mark (2009). Albert and Flora. 203 pages.
• Pengelly, Colin (2010). Albert Ball VC: The Fighter Pilot Hero of World War I. 224 pages.

The work from 1921 by Briscoe appears to have been written for children, and the adverts at the time said "Every copy sold means a contribution to the 'Captain Ball Memorial Fund'." I had hoped there would be more on this, but that was all I found.

I think that the above is a reasonably comprehensive list of the book-length accounts of Ball's life, though the Collar work from 2009 is something slightly different. Currently only the Bowyer work is used as a source for this article. Both the Collar work and the Pengelly work post-date Bowyer's work. It is not clear whether they provide anything new, but someone does need to look at them (or confirm that they've already looked at them) before this article goes to further review stages.

In addition to this, I also found the following three references, both more booklets than books, but worth noting in this talk page section so other editors are aware of them and can be aware of what they are:

• Elias, Gillian (1993). Albert Ball, VC. 37 pages.
• Merryweather, Frank Bertrand (1918). The Defiance of Death. 16 pages.
• Cobbold, W.N. (1918) Albert Ball VC fighter pilot: In Memoriam. 8 pages.

The Elias work is a booklet from Nottinghamshire County Council. The Merryweather work is subtitled "Being some thoughts on the death of a brave soldier, preached ... by F. B. Merryweather. In memoriam: Capt. Ball". According to this: "Printed card covers, 16 pages, portrait frontispiece, 18 x 12 cm. This is the text of a commemorative sermon preached at Lenton Priory Church on All Saints Day by F.B.M. It is followed by a description of the circumstances of a duel between Ball and Immelman. It was printed by Arthur H. Stockwell." Can't do much with this on its own, but it would be interesting to see if any secondary source commented on this sermon at any point (it is mentioned in a 1999 work by Joanna Bourke). The Cobbold work doesn't seem to be mentioned much elsewhere, but is described here as containing "a poem commemorating Albert Ball and his achievements". The following year, Cobbold produced a volume of poetry titled Rhymes on the War, March 21st to November 11th, 1918, and after the Armistice (1919), though some sources call it Poems on the War. This volume of poetry included one titled 'Captain Albert Ball, VC, DSO'. This poem, and another one by Cobbold called 'The Revival of Knighthood', are both discussed in sources such as this (another work by Joanna Bourke, an article in a collected volume of essays). Carcharoth (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

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WOW!

Georgejdorner (talk) 02:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

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Hi, taking the books above one by one:

• Briscoe, Walter Alwyn (1918). Captain Ball VC. 300 pages.
  • As you know I've read through this one and apart from some tributes by various luminaries it didn't appear to add anything to Bowyer and other sources we have. I may still add a quote or two from it to take it out the Further Reading section. I've also found a useful source that partially analyses it as a tribute/memorial, which I'll add at some stage to the Legacy section.
• Briscoe, Walter Alwyn (1921). The Boy Hero of the Air. 108 pages.

• I may just mention this one in the main body in conjunction with quoting and discussing the work above.

• Kiernan, Reginald Hugh (1933). Captain Albert Ball. 198 pages.

• This we know about, already in Further Reading. I haven't located a copy but it was used as a source in the ODNB entry so given that plus its age I don't think it's vital to pursue it.

• Bowyer, Chaz (1977). Albert Ball VC. 280 pages.

• I think we should be satisfied with this for the purposes of the A-Class Review, however I've checked out the later edition on Amazon and will probably get a copy of it to bring the citations up to date before we go for FAC.

• Collar, Mark (2009). Albert and Flora. 203 pages.

• This might be interesting if somewhat specialised so not top of my list given the other sources -- we do already dedicate some space to Flora in the article, so she is not ignored.

• Pengelly, Colin (2010). Albert Ball VC: The Fighter Pilot Hero of World War I.

• Seen this on the net but haven't found a copy in local bookstores as yet. I don’t know the author’s bona fides as a military biographer (Bowyer has a pedigree as long as your arm). It certainly needs looking at before FAC but, again, not necessarily for the ACR given the comprehensiveness of the Bowyer book and the additional military book sources we've already used. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the point-by-point response here. I'm interested to see what you've found regarding this analysis of the Briscoe work from 1918. I've been reading about Chaz Bowyer (who sadly died in 2008) and he does have a good pedigree as you say. Pengelly has written a few books on military history as well (maybe ask around as well?), but I wouldn't really know how to assess that and as you intend to look at it and you know the Bowyer book well, you are in the best position to judge that one. I did look around for more on Joanna Bourke, and as you can see she has an article. Which doesn't always mean much, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that. The 'Albert and Flora' book is described as 'fiction' in some places, so it might be a semi-fictionalised account based on the letters, and it does also cover other WWI romances as well, so how to use/treat this does depend heavily on what it actually is. Two reviews I found may help: [1], [2]. That latter review (from the Nottingham Evening Post) is particularly helpful (the first one is the blog of a friend puffing the book) - sounds like this book is something for external links or a very brief mention if at all. It is interesting that the niece (Mrs Paddy Armstrong) relates the thoughts of her mother (Cyril's wife) on the relationship. I'd be interested, though, to see if that book mentions that Flora was a bridesmaid at the wedding of Lois in 1918 (as I pointed out above) - this was just under a year after Albert died remember. Would be something that is quite easy to miss, but the source I found is crystal-clear on this. Carcharoth (talk) 04:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Couple more points

Noting here that extra details on the memorial in the field in France where he crashed are here. It seems the current layout is different to what was there originally (two markers, not just one, and triangular patch and path). If that is considered a reliable source, it might be worth including, or if this detail is excessive, then just finding some way of pointing interested readers in that direction (I would add a footnote or further reading link saying "further details available at...").

The other point about the memorials in France is the succession of grave markers, from the German one, to the RFC one, to the one erected by the family. The German memorial cross inscription is given in the Albert Ball entry in Supreme Courage (Peter de la Billiere), a history of the Victoria Cross. The link is to the 2011 edition. None of the memorial inscriptions have been quoted in this article, but that is one that could be considered (I'm personally torn on memorial inscriptions, because I like the idea of being able to find them on Wikipedia, but the various memorial inscriptions would overwhelm the text of this article unless put in a series of footnotes).

That account by de la Billiere is from page 41 to 52, some 11 pages, and is well worth using as a source, IMO (though I can't assess how much it goes beyond what Bowyer wrote). Certainly if the ODNB account is used as a source, this one probably should be as well, given the length, or it should be put in further reading. If de la Billiere gives a slightly different analysis of the final flight (as he seems to), then NPOV probably requires using this source as well.

Getting back to the memorial crosses, there is mention here of the three different grave markers. The first one and the third one can be sourced. Is there a way to source the fact that the RFC put up a marker after the war to replace the German one? As the German one eventually (according to that website) ended up at Trent College, there must be a published account somewhere of what happened there, and really the RfC cross should have been kept somewhere.

Two final points are: (i) some of the portraits used in this article (and some not included) appear to have been by official war artists. The fact that these are official portraits/depictions of the pilots and the air battles, should be explicitly sourced and mentioned; (ii) There was an article in The Builder in 1922 that features the 'cartouche' on the Captain Ball, VC, Memorial Hostel. Given the date (1922) and location (Nottingham), this is almost certainly the Albert Ball Memorial Homes in Lenton (not the 1917 hostel in London). But several sources refer to the Homes as a Hostel, so there may be some confusion still present there. But the real point I'm making here is that architectural publications also reported on those Memorial Homes. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes I've seen the 2011 Supreme Courage on GoogleBooks but will probably use the 2004 edition as my library has it. I noticed it has the inscription on the cross and will probably add that, however I'm a little unsure of the author because, despite his credentials as a soldier, he does uncritically report what I believe is now generally regarded as myth, that all VC metal is from Russian cannon of the Crimean War, and also suggests Ball downed almost 70 aircraft, without any explanation that I could find for the discrepancy between that and the official total of 44. Of course many of the WWI aces are thought to have accounted for more than their official total, but nowhere else have I seen such a high figure in connection with Ball; at the very least it should have been discussed on first mention. Still, will give the book a go... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that high figure as well. And another discrepancy is that some sources say the identification bracelet Albert gave Flora was gold, when silver (as stated by other sources) seems more likely. Were official identification bracelets really made of silver anyway? Would this have been a privately made one? Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of little discrepancies. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash. Carcharoth (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Rushing a bit, but putting a few more points here:

• Albert Ball's Flying Aces - as far as I can tell, a modern band with this name, playing WWI-era music, pretending to be a group of RFC pilots in Paris after the war. Though possibly that backstory is genuine (in the sense that such a group existed), I doubt it. All rather bizarre. The fact that they are listed on the Eccentric Club's website, the same organisation that paid more than 90 years ago for a hostel in London named after Ball, appears to be entirely coincidental.
• Cyril Ball was Albert's younger (not older) brother (I think I said older brother above), and an interview with him was posted on the Aerodrome forums, along with other stuff such as the newspaper article by Stannard. I've lost the links now, but browsing the Aerodrome forums should bring them up fairly quickly.
• Another article on the Eccentric Club-funded hostel named after Ball. I found this from a different search, as this would not have come up in either searches for "Albert Ball" or "Captain Ball", but only in searches for "A. Ball".
• Found on Google Books: Baily's Magazine of Sports & Pastimes, Volume 109 (1918), page 38: "Mr. Cobbold, 'the prince of dribblers,' as he has been called by footballers, has penned, an ode in Latin to the memory of Flight-Commander A. Ball, VCDSO, after whom one of the Eccentric Club hostels has been named" (note again the reference to "A. Ball" an almost impossible term to search by). If I manage to get hold of a copy of that poem Cobbold published, it will be interesting to see if it is in Latin, or whether Cobbold did other odes as well.
• There were two versions of the Newling painting, one in 1919, and one in 1921. The one in the Wikipedia article is the 1919 one.
• I went and had another look at the Nottinghamshire Archives link on the National Archives site, and if you follow one of the links there, you get a very detailed description for one of the archives, with quotes from lots of the letters they hold. It isn't all the letters (presumably those are in the other archive), but it gives you lots of reliable online quotes that readers can be pointed towards. The external link currently in this Wikipedia article could be tweaked to point readers in that direction, as it is easy to miss that link at the page to which the readers are currently sent.

I'm also going to try and look at a copy of the 1921 work by Briscoe (the children's version of his 1918 work), and see what is said there. Carcharoth (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Some notes

Managed to peruse copies of some of the books on a library trip, and I made the following notes:

• On page 309 of Briscoe and Stannard (Captain Ball VC, 1918) there is a mention of the Eccentric Club hostel "for limbless men from the Army and Navy". The only information here that is not in sources provided elsewhere is that it was "originated by his friend Mr James White".
• On page 310-11 of Briscoe and Stannard (Captain Ball VC, 1918) is the story of the Sherwoods advancing in battle to the cry of "Remember Captain Ball!". However, the battle is not named, so that ditches the idea of mentioning that. That story is all very Boy's Own anyway.
• I took another look at the Cobbold poetry book (Rhymes on the War, 1919), and the poem to Ball is on pages 2-5 and is indeed 32 stanzas long, but I still didn't photocopy it, though one of the stanzas (about a funeral pyre) was reproduced elsewhere, I think.
• Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) ends with an epitaph on page 181 from the war correspondent Maurice Baring who joined the RFC during WWI and was an assistant to Henderson and Trenchard. That snippet of information led (via Google) to this, a letter from Baring to T. E. Lawrence asking for him to review Kiernan's book! (Note that Lawrence is addressed by Baring as 'Shaw', the name Lawrence adopted in the RAF).
• Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) acknowledges H. A. Jones, the "British Official Air Historian". I've tried without much success to find out more details about H. A. Jones, but seeing that reminded me that the DNB entry for Ball, written in 1927, was by the same H. A. Jones.
• Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) has a forward by Air-Marshal Sir J. F. A. Higgins.
  • The Briscoe/Stannard book (Captain Ball VC, 1918) also has an appreciation by Higgins and I did consider using some of it since he's notable but I felt that Lloyd George, Haig and Trenchard were enough, and were also an order of magnitude better known to the general reader. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
• Briscoe second book on Ball (The Boy Hero of the Air, 1921) was indeed written for children, as the title suggests.
  • As I think I suggested ealrier, might be worth just mentioning this one, but probably no more. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Those are all the notes I had time to make. The 'article' in The Times from 1999 is all of 54 words. I'm not sure where the rest of the text on the Victoriacross website came from. I did find a local Nottingham newspaper article that mentioned the French school, so can e-mail that if anyone is interested (no scan, just had it e-mailed to me). Carcharoth (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tks mate. I'd like to see the Times and Nottingham paper articles if you can email them, as I agree it'd be good to cite the French school tidbit to an RS in the main body, rather than have the ELs. Naming a house in a local school is one thing, naming an entire school in another country is definitely worth mentioning. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

WWI Resource Center links redux

Hello,

Would the Nottingham Evening Post be considered a reliable source? If so, we have some valuable info in their articles. First, there is the insights into his personality, and his interplay with his family in his letters. Second, there are useful facts about his connections, such as his and his father's stock ownership in Austin Motors, which led to the Austin Ball fighter, and his return to combat.

If you deem the NEP reliable, I should be glad to mine these sources. After all, it's scarcely fair to leave so much of this work to Ian and Carcharoth.

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Computer animation of Ball's last flight

Greetings, all,

A thrilling little film to watch, but with many inaccuracies. I won't enumerate them all here, but showing Ball wearing a helmet is only the first error. I don't recommend linking this to the article.

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)