Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Riggenbach (2nd nomination)

Jeff Riggenbach

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• Articles for deletion/Jeff Riggenbach
• Articles for deletion/Jeff Riggenbach (2nd nomination)

Jeff Riggenbach (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This article basically comprises two short book reviews. Riggenbach has been published in The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies (just about the only hits for him at JSTOR) and by numerous oddball outfits such as LewRockwell.com. He has connections to the Ludwig von Mises Institute and other fringe libertarian groups but he seems almost never to be mentioned by the mainstream. The man seems to be a fringe player even in a fringe area and I cannot see how he meets WP:GNG if we exclude the usual mutual backslapping of those who frequent that area. Sitush (talk) 10:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 December 10. —cyberbot I ^Notify_Online 16:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Delete. Basically E.J. Dionne likes one of his essays (which even Dionne refers to as an "obscure essay"), and his second book got a one-paragraph blurb on the History News Network blog (not even a review). The rest of the sources are his own articles or other non-independent sources. It's just not enough to consider him notable. Like many other non-notable writers, it is easy enough to find his own writings, but there is little commentary from others about him or his work. You don't even have to exclude "mutual backslapping". --RL0919 (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Keep – Overlooked (or perhaps downplayed) in the article are his prodigious contributions as an audiobook narrator. Some 70 titles with Blackstone Audiobooks (now downpour.com) and simplyaudiobooks.com. Audible.com has him as the narrator for 100 titles. ASIN B00A2ZI1ZE is but one example, which does pertain in the least to the libertarian genre. His narration of William Manchester's The Glory and the Dream ISBN 9780786106950 OCLC 30825996 is a 57+ hour recording. (In fact, the majority of his readings are in non-economics/non-libertarian areas.) In this regard he qualifies as a voice actor who has had significant roles in multiple notable ... other productions. In this he qualifies as an WP:ENTERTAINER. Should book narration be disregarded as a performing art? Hmmmm. It is akin to singing or rapping, which is covered by WP:NMUSIC. In this guideline, a musician (defined to include singers, rappers, etc.) is notable if they have released two or more albums on major record labels. – S. Rich (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• From what I could see, his narrations are not just overlooked in the article but in secondary sources. I had trouble finding anything that really discussed them (it can be difficult enopugh to find this for authors themselves). Just narrating a lot of stuff is no more notable than writing a lot of stuff. Independent sources need to say things about it. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Query (rhetorical), if a writer has lots of stuff published by major publishing houses, do we add the material to articles. (In some cases we simply have bibliographies/filmographies/discographies of writers/actors/performers.) And when we see such lists, don't we consider the source of the publication data to be RS? Moreover, what is this "independent RS" parameter? I do not see the term used in WP:RS (except in a link to an essay). – S. Rich (talk) 18:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Independence isn't required for a source to be reliable, but it is required for the source to indicate notability. See the fourth bullet at WP:GNG. As for WP:ENTERTAINER, the guideline says notability is likely if the performer has appeared in multiple notable productions. Most audiobooks are not independently notable productions, even if the book performed is notable and it comes from a major publisher. This is very different from movies and music, where most items produced by a major company will receive enough attention to be notable. If you can connect him to multiple notable audiobooks (possibly ones listed in Category:Audiobooks by title or series) or show he won notable awards for his performances (perhaps ones listed at Category:Audiobook awards), then I'm happy to reconsider. --RL0919 (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Delete - Virtually nonexistent coverage in independent RS (of both voice narration and writing) leaves us no choice, per WP:GNG. Steeletrap (talk) 18:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - Absolutely not notable per GNG. It's possible some interested editor could start an article about his first book, which was at least mentioned in passing by the young E.J. Dionne on cable TV years ago. In terms of notability, activity as an audiobook narrator about as notable as being the PA announced at a college sports stadium and less notable than being an air traffic controller at a major airport, IMO. I just can't see it -- no RS to support notabity. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 December 11. —cyberbot I ^Notify_Online 06:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Evano1van(எவனோ ஓருவன்) 08:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:06, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment User:S. Rich is right that audiobook narrators play a significant role in creative works and thus reviews of that work would count towards notability (see WP:CREATIVE #3) - it's a multi-creative work like a film. In this case the reviews would need to be of the audiobook version of the book, but since there are over 100 it should be possible to find some. I'm personally not inclined to do the leg work but my gut sense is they exist. There are also audiobook magazines which have profiles of narrators, my guess is he is probably profiled there as well. These magazines also review audiobooks. -- GreenC 08:21, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Book reviews of books narrated by Jeff Riggenbach. 38 of them. -- GreenC 03:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

So what? I've had more mentions of my rugby playing and there is no way that I am notable. It isn't volume that matters, it's content. I can't see those reviews but my bet is that they're not going to be much better than the ones for the author about whose notability we recently disagreed. A lot of reviews are little more than puff pieces planted by publishers etc. Are they discussing the book or the reader? - Sitush (talk) 03:11, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I am a subscriber to AudioFile (magazine) and have access to the reviews. It is the leading audiobook review magazine in the United States. If you have any questions let me know. Good job playing Rugby must be rough. Regards. -- GreenC 03:56, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

• Keep - Has lots more refs [added after all the below debate:] See Talk:Jeff_Riggenbach#More_sources on autobio; senior fellow info; 77 pdfs of published articles; Chicago Tribune link re 12 of his LA Times articles; NY Times article featuring him, another quoting him; another book review. I can try to add material if article kept. than a lot of articles I could go through and AfD in an hour and potential for many more. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Yet again, Carol, I feel the need to remind you of WP:OSE - this nomination is not about the failings of other articles, however much you repeatedly bring up that argument. And turning to your superficial analysis please can you explain what the references are and where they are. I know that you often skimp on the detail but we'll need more than your say-so. FWIW, I've been trying to track down reviews of his audio books and am not seeing a lot online, except the usual blarney about Mises-related books. I accept Green's speculative point about offline sources but, as always, someone will have to find them. - Sitush (talk) 00:32, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

What can I say, I was tired from adding bunch of refs to another article that some wants deleted and didn't have energy for this one. Just expressing in short-hand the feeling it's easier and more fun success-wise to delete than beef up articles. Sigh... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I think that you should strike your !vote because it has nothing to do with this article. I do a lot of sourcing myself but I don't take out my frustrations at totally random AfDs. - Sitush (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

My apologies for editing while I'm tired. I thought I'd edited the article before. Will find more refs tomorrow. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. I'm going to be having a last run-through for sources also. Just, please, try to avoid the house of cards that is so evident on the fringes of libertarianism: a small group of people bigging each other up doesn't make for notability. - Sitush (talk) 02:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)