Talk:Wales

The issue of whether Wales is a country or not has been repeatedly raised. The result of all these debates is that Wales is indeed a country. This has been confirmed in formal mediation. The discussion is summarised in this archive here. Further information on the countries within the UK can be found at Countries of the United Kingdom, and a table of reliable sources can be found at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/refs.

Government and politics images

I removed the image of First Minister Carwyn Jones from the Government and politics section (since reverted) for two reasons. Firstly, per WP:RECENTISM. Jones has been First Minister of Wales since December 2009 – less than four years. If anyone should be pictured in the section, Rhodri Morgan would be my first choice - he was in office for the best part of ten years. However, while I accept that many articles show their country's current leader, MOS has no requirement to do so AFAIK, and not all country articles do e.g. Ireland and Northern Ireland. The second reason was that the image bled into the following (Local Government) section, making the article look amateurish. The section is too short to accommodate three images (and the image of the Senedd should remain). May I suggest an alternative resolution? Replace the image of the royal badge of Wales with the image of Carwyn Jones. Any objections? Daicaregos (talk) 10:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Certainly none from me.
— | Gareth Griffith-Jones | The Welsh Buzzard | — 11:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem. I think an image of the current political leader helps reinforce the message to readers that Wales is a current political entity. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done Daicaregos (talk) 09:04, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Royal Badge of Wales.

You people are aware that the Welsh government has a coat of arms right? Why isnt it featured next to the flag like all the over government coat of arms from various countries? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Badge_of_Wales — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.13.216.142 (talk) 20:10, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The Welsh government doesn't have sovereignty over Wales, unlike other states. I'm bothered either way however. Rob (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Please expand "bothered either way"! — | Gareth Griffith-Jones |The WelshBuzzard| — 20:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind whether it's included or not, since I have little idea of the extent to which the Royal Badge symbolises Wales. I disagree with the OP's assertion that a symbol of a Government, is by essence, a national symbol. And it may incorrect in this case, since the Royal Badge doesn't represent the sovereign of Wales. Simply, a symbol represents a country, if it is used to represent the country. Rob (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The Royal Badge is not the badge of the Welsh government. It's the badge of the Queen in Wales. "The device introduced in 2008 is accordingly a badge, rather than a coat of arms; Wales currently has no official coat of arms." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, as ever, to Ghmyrtle for clarifying this! — | Gareth Griffith-Jones |The WelshBuzzard| — 21:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think whether it's a coat of arms or not is conclusive, various national symbols are placed along side flags in countries' infoboxes, but I don't think the badge is a national symbol. Rob (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2014

In the second par in the main article, this sentence should have a comma added after "century": "Welsh national identity emerged among the Celtic Britons after the Roman withdrawal from Britain in the 5th century[place comma here] and Wales is regarded as one of the modern Celtic nations."

Listserv (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)Listserv

Done Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Commas

If a sentence looks like "(subject) (predicate), and (another subject) (another predicate)" or "(subject) (predicate), (another predicate), and (yet another predicate)", commas are correct. If it looks like "(subject) (predicate) and (another predicate)", commas should not be used. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:46, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. So shall we put them all back now? Ian Dalziel (talk) 19:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Okay, I've looked at all of the disputed commas. A few commas, such as the ones in "light and service industries, and tourism" and "governors, and the flower of its youth", are Oxford commas and can go either way. Most of Marimari2k1's removal were correct, and I've fixed the few that weren't. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Revision 593752527

Edits:

• Infobox tidy.
  • Removed translations out of piped links per WP:OVERLINK.
  • Added native phrase template to motto.
  • Removed links next to names of ministers regarding their membership to legislatures, as they're pointless with the (HMG)
  • UK > HMG, Actual abbreviation for British Government.
  • US$ > USD, USD is more correct. ($ is also applicable)
  • Removed (UK) next to +44, calling codes cover a variety of regions, and are not necessarily specific to sovereign states.
  • Removed dividing line, a section of the infobox lacking a heading is inconsistent formatting. Also, the (HMG) clarifies which ministers are part of the British Government.
  • Added soundtrack for anthem.
  • Other minor formatting edits'
• Introduction edits.
  • Irish Sea is part of the Atlantic.
  • Expanded location description.
  • 'bordered by England' > 'shares a border with England' Better wording?
  • 'part of the United Kingdom and the island of Great Britain' > 'part of the United Kingdom. Predominantly located on Great Britain' More correct.
  • Other minor wording.

Issues?

Regards, Rob (talk | contribs) 20:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

A few (thanks for discussing this):

• I have never heard Wales' motto noted in English. It is a translation only and, as such, should be in 'small'
• The national anthem is known as Land of my fathers in English, which should be noted.
• The sound file is not of sufficient quality to appear in the infobox (this has been discussed here)
• The dividing line was created deliberately in order to differentiate between the Welsh Government and the UK Government (this has been discussed)
• The UK Government should be noted as the UK Government.
• Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's name should be noted in full
• No need to note 'UK' after +44
• Dewi Sant should be part of the Wikilink
• The opening paragraph, and especially the opening sentence, has the been subject of extensive discussion. It must not be changed without achieving concensus on the talk page. I would personally prefer some of the changes made (although none of those made to the opening sentence), but they should still be agreed first on talk. Daicaregos (talk) 22:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't explain some things clearly, I'll go though:

• The englishmotto section is for translations, and displays the translation in the same way it was previously (this hasn't actually changed anything).
• National anthem in English - Okay
• Sound file not appropriate - Okay
• Dividing line - I'll look further into this
• UK Government should be noted as the UK Government - I poorly explained this. Currently, next to 'Prime Minister' it states '(UK)', I changed this to '(HMG)', the abbreviation for the British Government, rather then the UK. Ie, it would state 'Prime Minister (HMG)' rather then 'Prime Minister (UK)'. This is because the First Minister is a British (UK) minister, they're just not a British Government (HMG) minister.
• Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's name in full - Okay
• No need to note 'UK' after +44 - I'm guessing this means you agree.
• Including 'Dewi Sant' within the Wikilink is over-linking (WP:OVERLINK). Since it's clearly a translation of the linked text, linking it also doesn't serve any purpose. Although these are part of the same link, it is still essentially linking the same term twice, right next to each-other.
• Introduction agreed first - Okay

Rob (talk | contribs) 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Changes to Demography section

I've reverted these changes for several reasons. Firstly, they are poorly written: "According to the 2011 census the population of Wales is...." - no, it was, almost three years ago. "Populace"....."reside"....."Historiclly", etc. Verbosity and poor spelling should be discouraged in articles. More importantly, in Matt's version there was an over-emphasis on, and over-detailed interpretation of, the census statistics on national identity, which seem to be written up in a WP:POINTy manner. Some referenced information seems to have been removed. The previous text was better balanced, and better written, so I have reverted to it - and subsequently tweaked it a little for better flow. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)