Talk:Investigative Project on Terrorism

Should there be an islamophobia navigation template on here or not?

An IP removed it. I think it's plausible given the number of RS which refer to this group as either Islamophobic or anti-Muslim or which refer to it in association with SIOA and other such groups, which makes it plausible that a reader might want to navigate amongst those articles.

• Kumar, Deepa (14 August 2012). Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire. Haymarket Books. pp. 179–. ISBN 978-1-60846-212-4.
• Ernst, Carl W. (20 March 2013). Islamophobia in America: The Anatomy of Intolerance. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 55–. ISBN 978-1-137-29008-3.

and so on.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Deepa Kumar

Subjects: U.S. "Imperialism," "Islamophobia," and anti-Muslim "racism." She believes it is "Islamophobic" to "depict Muhammad in a negative light," despite the fact that Jesus and Moses are constantly depicted in a negative light. She also believes it is "Islamophobic" and racist to criticize Muslims who respond violently to criticism of their prophet.

Carl W. Ernst

Professor of Islamic Studies

In other words, Islamophiles. Yeah, really reliable sources indeed. Alf person would do well to see this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.64.11.204 (talk) 08:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

192 person would do well to consider whether IPT itself is the best source on whether they're Islamophobic. Do you have an substantive point to make or not?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

It appears there are far too many editors who are disregarding the requirements for NPOV. I've reviewed several articles on terrorism, including various bios of people who have been labeled Islamophobics by Wikipedia editors. This is deplorable behavior. I also noticed the same few editors consistently trying to hang Islamophobia labels on every organization, group, and/or individual who is/has been involved in exposing Islamist extremism. It's not an editor's job to diagnose a phobia. There is no question whatsoever that Islamophobia labeling is pejorative, especially in instances of BLP. Forget the medical qualifications, who gave such authority to layperson volunteer editors? Only qualified individuals in the medical field can properly diagnose a phobia. Where is the balance? What happened to NPOV? This behavior has to stop because it violates Wikipedia standards, and threatens our future as a credible resource. Atsme (talk) 00:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You are seriously making the case that the suffix "-phobia" can only be applied to a noun to form a word after a qualified medical professional has made a diagnosis? That's seriously what you're saying? What in the world makes you think that? Are you logophobic?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

One thing that strikes me about this situation is that the article says nothing about Islmophobia.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:38, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Islamophobia Labels Are Reverse Discrimination

WP Editors should follow the example of the AP's journalistic integrity and neutrality, and discontinue use of the words Islamophobia and homophobia. On 11/26/2012, Politico reported the nixing of those words from the online AP Stylebook, and included the following quote: "-phobia," "an irrational, uncontrollable fear, often a form of mental illness" should not be used "in political or social contexts," including "homophobia" and "Islamophobia." I've made a similar argument on a few Talk pages where the labeling has been misapplied, and I'm sure there are more I haven't found, yet. Applying the label Islamophobia is as racist and discriminatory as what the label itself attempts to define, the latter of which is in clear violation of WP:POV. I've also noticed a rise in Islamophobia labeling, and it appears the same group of editors are usually involved as evidenced by the recent addition of the info box that now links the Investigative Project On Terrorism to the racist, discriminatory series on Islamophobia. Their actions and edits reflect an unmistakable prejudice to Islam. Any person or organization who is active in the fight against terrorism, or critical of the politics of Islam, or who oppose Sharia are among those targeted for an Islamophobia label. It has clearly gotten out of hand, and needs to be addressed ASAP. Atsme (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Leaving aside your conspiracy-theorizing about some shadowy and undefined "same group of editors," let me point out that no one has labelled this group Islamophobic. The presence of a navbox does not label, but merely organizes. Secondly, if the AP stylebook thinks that that's what the suffix "-phobia" means in English they're wrong. As always, we can turn to the dictionary (OED again): -phobia, comb. form Forming nouns with the sense ‘fear of ——’, ‘aversion to ——’. Nothing about irrationality or mental illness in the way this suffix is used in English. Finally, yet again, you've fallen prey to the etymological fallacy. Now, do you care to actually discuss anything specific about this article? Because that's what talk pages are for, you know. You want the navbox out of the article? Make a policy based argument for taking it out. You don't like the existence of the navbox? Go to TdF and make a policy based argument for its deletion. You don't mind the navbox but you think it should be called something different? Go to the talk page of the template and make a policy based argument for whatever it is you want to do. For someone with 53 edits to article space you've got an awful lot of opinions about how to do something you don't seem willing to actually do: write content.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The AP stylebook is irrelevent. We alreadt have guideline. The AP stylebook isn't one.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho WP guidelines point to contentious labeling. The latter coupled with what's written in the AP Stylebook provides a strong argument for deletion. I presented a 3-step plan on AC Talk, so if you get a chance, I'd appreciate your input, but totally understand if it's not a priority. Between you and Alf, I've acquired some valuable knowledge, so thank you. You've also helped jump start my memory recall. I now remember why I took a hiatus. *lol* I've been keeping the template debate central to AC Talk since the navbox is being used to designate a series which involves several individual articles. It will be a one decision effects all. Once a consensus has been reached, and the key editors have weighed in, I'll consider it a signal to come out of the fox hole and start editing. Alf has already hinted that it's time to get work, and his hints come in megaton packages. Atsme (talk) 04:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Alf, don't forget, every conspiracy started out as a theory. I like the idea of navboxes, but not the one that's sporting the title "Islamophobia". And Alf, I actually do admire your knowledge as an editor, and all the work you've done at WP. Wishing you a happy day! Atsme (talk) 04:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The "AC" article talk page is not the appropriate place for your discussion. That talk page is for discussing that article. You should find some more appropriate place if you want people to participate. This isn't the appropriate place for this discussion either. Article talk pages are for discussing changes to the actual articles they're associated with. See WP:TALK.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 04:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Alf you are edit warring. That Islamophobia template does not belong in this article, and neither did the paragraph you added to make it applicable because you sourced from a WP article about a partisan progressive think tank. Hardly NPOV. It appears the time has come for a Tdf, and to the Isamophobia propaganda. Atsme (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope, I'm not edit-warring. There's a discussion open on this topic up-page and you refuse to engage. I didn't source the sentence from a partisan think tank, I sourced it from a reliable secondary source that discusses the think tank, which legitimizes the think tank's statement. Read WP:RS for details and please engage in the already open conversation above.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 06:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you are edit-warring, Alf. I did engage in the exchange, so don't go there. 75% of this Talk page consists of my comments. Up-page, down-page, all over the page. You'll also see that Serialjoepsycho was the last response in the up-page section. Nothing more needed to be said after he commented - an admin gave his opinion, and I agreed. You apparently disagree, as expected. The navbox has no relevance in this article. Period the end. I deleted it, you reverted, I undid, you reverted…you are being disruptive. The links in the navbox are all POV, totally unrelated to this article, and so is the term Islamophobia. You are spreading propaganda, and obviously trying to promote a cause by using WP as your platform. Atsme (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)