Talk:Investigative Project on Terrorism

Should there be an islamophobia navigation template on here or not?

An IP removed it. I think it's plausible given the number of RS which refer to this group as either Islamophobic or anti-Muslim or which refer to it in association with SIOA and other such groups, which makes it plausible that a reader might want to navigate amongst those articles.

• Kumar, Deepa (14 August 2012). Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire. Haymarket Books. pp. 179–. ISBN 978-1-60846-212-4.
• Ernst, Carl W. (20 March 2013). Islamophobia in America: The Anatomy of Intolerance. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 55–. ISBN 978-1-137-29008-3.

and so on.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Deepa Kumar

Subjects: U.S. "Imperialism," "Islamophobia," and anti-Muslim "racism." She believes it is "Islamophobic" to "depict Muhammad in a negative light," despite the fact that Jesus and Moses are constantly depicted in a negative light. She also believes it is "Islamophobic" and racist to criticize Muslims who respond violently to criticism of their prophet.

Carl W. Ernst

Professor of Islamic Studies

In other words, Islamophiles. Yeah, really reliable sources indeed. Alf person would do well to see this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.64.11.204 (talk) 08:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

192 person would do well to consider whether IPT itself is the best source on whether they're Islamophobic. Do you have an substantive point to make or not?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

It appears there are far too many editors who are disregarding the requirements for NPOV. I've reviewed several articles on terrorism, including various bios of people who have been labeled Islamophobics by Wikipedia editors. This is deplorable behavior. I also noticed the same few editors consistently trying to hang Islamophobia labels on every organization, group, and/or individual who is/has been involved in exposing Islamist extremism. It's not an editor's job to diagnose a phobia. There is no question whatsoever that Islamophobia labeling is pejorative, especially in instances of BLP. Forget the medical qualifications, who gave such authority to layperson volunteer editors? Only qualified individuals in the medical field can properly diagnose a phobia. Where is the balance? What happened to NPOV? This behavior has to stop because it violates Wikipedia standards, and threatens our future as a credible resource. Atsme (talk) 00:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You are seriously making the case that the suffix "-phobia" can only be applied to a noun to form a word after a qualified medical professional has made a diagnosis? That's seriously what you're saying? What in the world makes you think that? Are you logophobic?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

One thing that strikes me about this situation is that the article says nothing about Islmophobia.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:38, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

It's very clear that there is some level of consensus that this group is tied to descrimination. Some of the wikiprojects that link to here show that. However in the article there is no connection to Any kind of descrimination. If this group is considered islamophobic by a reliable source it should be mentioned.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

*Template*

On the Islamophobia Template talk page I have made a few comments. Essentially as of right now this template I feel is being used as a Rubber Stamp to make an unverified claim. Since no actually informtion in this article says anything about Islamophobia at all then one of two options need to be considered to fix this.

• 1- The template is removed from this page.
• 2- What ever relation this organization has to Islamophobia needs to be written in the article.

Serialjoepsycho (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Islamophobia Labels Are Reverse Discrimination

WP Editors should follow the example of the AP's journalistic integrity and neutrality, and discontinue use of the words Islamophobia and homophobia. On 11/26/2012, Politico reported the nixing of those words from the online AP Stylebook, and included the following quote: "-phobia," "an irrational, uncontrollable fear, often a form of mental illness" should not be used "in political or social contexts," including "homophobia" and "Islamophobia." I've made a similar argument on a few Talk pages where the labeling has been misapplied, and I'm sure there are more I haven't found, yet. Applying the label Islamophobia is as racist and discriminatory as what the label itself attempts to define, the latter of which is in clear violation of WP:POV. I've also noticed a rise in Islamophobia labeling, and it appears the same group of editors are usually involved as evidenced by the recent addition of the info box that now links the Investigative Project On Terrorism to the racist, discriminatory series on Islamophobia. Their actions and edits reflect an unmistakable prejudice to Islam. Any person or organization who is active in the fight against terrorism, or critical of the politics of Islam, or who oppose Sharia are among those targeted for an Islamophobia label. It has clearly gotten out of hand, and needs to be addressed ASAP. Atsme (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Leaving aside your conspiracy-theorizing about some shadowy and undefined "same group of editors," let me point out that no one has labelled this group Islamophobic. The presence of a navbox does not label, but merely organizes. Secondly, if the AP stylebook thinks that that's what the suffix "-phobia" means in English they're wrong. As always, we can turn to the dictionary (OED again): -phobia, comb. form Forming nouns with the sense ‘fear of ——’, ‘aversion to ——’. Nothing about irrationality or mental illness in the way this suffix is used in English. Finally, yet again, you've fallen prey to the etymological fallacy. Now, do you care to actually discuss anything specific about this article? Because that's what talk pages are for, you know. You want the navbox out of the article? Make a policy based argument for taking it out. You don't like the existence of the navbox? Go to TdF and make a policy based argument for its deletion. You don't mind the navbox but you think it should be called something different? Go to the talk page of the template and make a policy based argument for whatever it is you want to do. For someone with 53 edits to article space you've got an awful lot of opinions about how to do something you don't seem willing to actually do: write content.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The AP stylebook is irrelevent. We alreadt have guideline. The AP stylebook isn't one.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho WP guidelines point to contentious labeling. The latter coupled with what's written in the AP Stylebook provides a strong argument for deletion. I presented a 3-step plan on AC Talk, so if you get a chance, I'd appreciate your input, but totally understand if it's not a priority. Between you and Alf, I've acquired some valuable knowledge, so thank you. You've also helped jump start my memory recall. I now remember why I took a hiatus. *lol* I've been keeping the template debate central to AC Talk since the navbox is being used to designate a series which involves several individual articles. It will be a one decision effects all. Once a consensus has been reached, and the key editors have weighed in, I'll consider it a signal to come out of the fox hole and start editing. Alf has already hinted that it's time to get work, and his hints come in megaton packages. Atsme (talk) 04:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Alf, don't forget, every conspiracy started out as a theory. I like the idea of navboxes, but not the one that's sporting the title "Islamophobia". And Alf, I actually do admire your knowledge as an editor, and all the work you've done at WP. Wishing you a happy day! Atsme (talk) 04:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The "AC" article talk page is not the appropriate place for your discussion. That talk page is for discussing that article. You should find some more appropriate place if you want people to participate. This isn't the appropriate place for this discussion either. Article talk pages are for discussing changes to the actual articles they're associated with. See WP:TALK.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 04:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Alf you are edit warring. That Islamophobia template does not belong in this article, and neither did the paragraph you added to make it applicable because you sourced from a WP article about a partisan progressive think tank. Hardly NPOV. It appears the time has come for a Tdf, and to the Isamophobia propaganda. Atsme (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope, I'm not edit-warring. There's a discussion open on this topic up-page and you refuse to engage. I didn't source the sentence from a partisan think tank, I sourced it from a reliable secondary source that discusses the think tank, which legitimizes the think tank's statement. Read WP:RS for details and please engage in the already open conversation above.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 06:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you are edit-warring, Alf. I did engage in the exchange, so don't go there. 75% of this Talk page consists of my comments. Up-page, down-page, all over the page. You'll also see that Serialjoepsycho was the last response in the up-page section. Nothing more needed to be said after he commented - an admin gave his opinion, and I agreed. You apparently disagree, as expected. The navbox has no relevance in this article. Period the end. I deleted it, you reverted, I undid, you reverted…you are being disruptive. The links in the navbox are all POV, totally unrelated to this article, and so is the term Islamophobia. You are spreading propaganda, and obviously trying to promote a cause by using WP as your platform. Atsme (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Leaving comments is not the same as engaging in conversation. You're babbling. Talk about actual concrete issues regarding the content of the article. That's what talk pages are for. Also, I'm not the only editor who reverted your removal. Please stick to concrete policy-based arguments.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The off topic discussion on AC was bubbled. Any issue you have with a certain page you should take up with that page. If you don't like the Islamophobia template you should go to it's talk page. If you don't want it here forgo the shotgun argumentation and start talking directly.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:09, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an admin.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Besides that if I was an Admin it wouldn't have mattered. There's a difference between adminastration actions and editorial opinions.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• The AP stylebook doesn't point to anything. It doesn't have a place in a wikipedia policy debate. It doesn't trump anything or add to a debate on the use of current wikipedia policy or guidelines. WP does have policy on contentious labeling WP:LABEL and yes Islamophobic can be considered among those terms even it is not specifically listed. I as an editor can not call someone Islamophobic in an article. However I can atribute a claim of Islamophobia to a reliable source. For example, "According to a report issued in 2011 by the Center for American Progress, the IPT was one of ten foundations constituting what it called "the Islamophobia network in America." In this example I am not calling anyone Islamophobic but the source is.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 16:04, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly right, with one addendum. In this case, we're not citing the CAP report directly, which would be dubious, but instead we're citing two separate independent reliable sources that are reporting on the CAP report. I don't think the CAP report itself would be a strong enough source to support the information, but there's adequate secondary sourcing to let us attribute the opinion to the CAP report.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Well no you could use a primary source it's just not ideal. You really have to use those with care. You don't really won't to exclude relevent information because it comes froma primary source if it happens to be a significant minority view. I can't relly speak whether that's a majority view as I'm only aware that Center for American Progress hold it but is at least a significant minority view. But yes it is better to use relible secondary sources when they are availible.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Revision

This diff was how the article previously tied IPT to Islamophobia. I'm not sure why it was removed. You are really going to have to justify it's removal, Atsme. I do question though beyond this off remark has anyone else linked this group to Islamophobia? I also have to ask if IPT has defended itself? Serialjoepsycho (talk • contribs) 15:40, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Serialjoepsycho To begin, it should be very obvious to you that the ONLY reason User:alf laylah wa laylah is here is to stick an Islamophobia label on the page. He didn't come here to improve the article, or contribute something beneficial. He is too busy running an Islamic propaganda campaign, acting just like a WP vandal going around slapping Islamophobia stamps on any and every article and BLP that criticizes the politics of Islamic extremism, or is in the fight against terrorism. It's discriminatory targeting, and that alone should justify disciplinary action against him. Is arbitration the next step? His actions are totally disruptive to editing.

The paragraph he added in an attempt to justify the Islamophobia stamp is nothing but misinformation from a George Soros funded progressive organization, Center For American Progress (a communist organization) that published a biased article titled Fear, Inc. co-authored by Wajahat Ali, none other than the man of "hate" himself, and former Board member of the Muslim Students Association. FYI -the MSA was established by members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Read about it here. Furthermore, the financial report that he included in the article is incorrect and misleading. Here is the link that proves it. Just think about it - is someone who is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood going to write anything truthful about organizations who are trying to expose them?

The “Fear Inc.” report claims to expose a network of Islamophobes supposedly stirring up prejudice against Muslims; but wait - some of the people targeted in the report were Muslims. For example, Zudhi Jasser, President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, was condemned in the report because he “dangerously and incorrectly labels mainstream Muslim-American organizations as subversive.”

The Islamophobia labeling has gotten out of hand, and it must be deleted permanently. It is compromising the future of Wikipedia. Those who are running around sticking Islamophobia stamps on everything are "Anti-Islamophobia Phobics". Atsme (talk) 09:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have no agenda, and believe it or not, you're not the first to decide that your pet issue is "compromising the future of wikipedia." It's not. Anyway, your accusation is dubious given the other edits I've made to this article, which you fail to mention. You've written nothing at all on this article. Finally, the "Islamophobia stamp" is not "nothing but misinformation" from CAP, it's a statement from CAP that's been covered in secondary independent sources, at least two of which the material is cited to. I have added nothing to this article with a citation to anything published by CAP. Get your facts straight, and please try to figure out the applicable policies instead of raving about George Soros and the Muslim Brotherhood.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not obvious at all if I assume good faith. I have no reason but to assume good faith. Assuming good faith I have to ask myself only a few questions based on WP:NPOV at WP:WEIGHT. The first question is if this is a majority viewpoint? The answer I come to with all the information provided to me is that no this is not. The second question is this a viewpoint held by a significant minority with prominent adherents. Center for American Progress do seem to meet the definition of prominent. While I would like to see more information I don't see a reason to exclude this information. Alf I think this information should be put back in if you would like to put it back in. Atsme if have any wikipedia based policy arguments please share them. But most of what you posted I can't personally give any weight. While CAP and George Suros may be biased wikipedia is not. We can't leave out their opinion because you don't like them. I try not to edit based on politics. I find that most everyone that does ends up disappointed.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 19:21, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

It's already back in, with some more info and a rebuttal. The point, as before, is that the CAP report was covered pretty widely in secondary sources independent from CAP, so it's appropriate to discuss their claims. I also added some independently reported material on their funding situation, along with IPT's actual denial. This is in preparation for rewriting the old part of the funding section, which does quote the CAP report directly, so I think it's inferior to basing the material on independent accounts of the CAP report for this subject as well.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• One final point Atsme. The Islamophobia Template. We put it here because they put it there basically. If you don't think it should be here you should have them remove it from there because it being on there really is a reason to post it here. Here is the template talk page. Bring your issue to them.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 22:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

If anyone linked to the template cares about the template not being on pages they think it should be on, then it's up to them to make a case for its inclusion. People can't just make a template linking or labelling things however thehy like and then demand the things have the template on until people can persuade them that the template is wrong. The article is primary, not the template. And this particular template, for this particular article, is a breathtaking POV violation which should not be re-added. Podiaebba (talk) 08:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The template and the page are interconnected. Removing this template from this article wouldn't remove any apparent "breathtaking POV" violation if you didn't remove this page from that template. And I demanded nothing. I asked that either this template be removed and this article be removed from the template or some apparent connection to Islamophobia be made in the article. When found out of the apparent connection that was removed I demanded to know why. It is nuetrally written and well sourced.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Podiaebba, how is there not a case for its inclusion? The CAP report calling this organization Islamophobic is discussed by multiple independent sources. The purpose of the template is to link related articles. Readers who are reading about Islamophobia will be interested in this organization because it is widely called Islamophobic, anti-Islam, anti-Muslim, and so on, in independent reliable secondary sources. That is a policy-based argument for the inclusion of the template. Do you have any argument for its exclusion other than your bare, unsupported, and dubious assertion that it's a "breathtaking POV violation"?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Podiaebba I agree. The Islamophobia template is definitely POV, and should not be used at all, especially when editors are unilaterally "defining" an organization as Islamophobic, and then purposely linking them to atrocities and other events that are irrelevant to the primary article. It's one thing for an editor to quote from an article that claims an organization is "Islamophobic", but it is not an editor's job to label it as such. In reviewing the discussions at Template _talk:Islamophobia there is a substantial amount of opposition to its use, perhaps more opposition than support. It is a highly controversial template nonetheless, which makes it contentious and strips it of all neutrality. I know of no instance where the label has not created controversy, heated debate, or argument. It is a form of propaganda because it shows support of Islam, and demonizes the organizations that are labeled Islamophobic. Again, POV with no discernible differences.

The word Islamophobia was recently nixed from the AP Stylebook, an action some editors contend is unrelated to WP policy, but I disagree for the simple reason that we as editors use the AP as a reliable source. If it's considered reliable in one aspect, it should be worthy of our consideration in another. One might also be inclined to conclude that the use of the template is reverse discrimination by anti-Islamophobia phobics, and anti-racism racists. This article is a good example of Islamophobia gone wild.

The template was attached to the article when there was nothing in the article to substantiate what some consider to be Islamophobia. Rather than pull the template, Alf.laylah.wa.laylah decided to take on the challenge, but not for the same reasons most editors would undertake a project. He had but one purpose in mind - to validate the Islamophobia label, making his primary mission to demonize and condemn the organization. He found a very biased and inaccurate report titled, "Fear Inc.", that was authored by an individual with ties (indirectly) to the MB, and added a paragraph based on that biased report to justify the Islamophobia template. I disputed his actions, but was subsequently distracted by another issue. As Podiaebba so wisely pointed out, the template includes links to articles that are in no way related to the article itself, therefore a blatant POV violation. I further validate her concerns, and contend that there is nothing in WP policy that gives editors the right to label a person or organization as Islamophobic, much less link the primary article to unrelated articles. Atsme (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

@Atsme::: Welcome back, Atsme. If you feel that should be wikipedia follow the AP stylebook then go to Wikipedia:Village pump under the policy section and suggest it. It however is not policy. It can be great source for your personal opinion of what editors should follow however it's still not policy. You can source it and everyone else can ignore it. WP:BIASED Sources don't need to be nuetral. This biased source is perfectly acceptable. As used in this article it doesn't violate NPOV.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 01:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

@Atsme:: Alf.laylah.wa.laylah decided to take on the challenge, but not for the same reasons most editors would undertake a project. He had but one purpose in mind - to validate the Islamophobia label, making his primary mission to demonize and condemn the organization. Are you kidding? You're super-confused and super-duper dramatizing. Anyway, that report was cited in this article before I ever edited it, and I didn't cite anything to it whatsoever. What, pray tell, are "the same reasons most editors would undertake such a project?" Is it possible that someday you might consider talking about article content? Probably not.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

One issue I think however that is being presented or at least hinted at is the use of Non-neutral but common names. Islamophobia is probably such an animal. That is the Name of the Template and the name of the primary article it connects to. However I think WP:POVNAME applies to this. This is the most commonly recognized term for this type of descrimination. Compare to homophobia. The proposed alternatives are not well known. Homonegativity for homophobia or Anti-Muslimism for Islamophobia. Serialjoepsycho (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

@Serialjoepsycho: Thank you for the "welcome back". The break gave me a chance to do a little reading and research. Also, thank you for your advice, and recommendation for the AP Stylebook. I'll certainly give it a try. I do understand that it is not an established WP guide, and will keep that in mind. I remain committed to my quest to help others better understand the repercussions of reverse discrimination, and the derogatory effects of WP:POVNAME templates.

@Alf.laylah.wa.laylah: It's one thing to cite a primary reference, but attempting to validate it with circular references is an exercise in futility. They all link back to the primary report. You stated, Are you kidding? You're super-confused and super-duper dramatizing. Anyway, that report was cited in this article before I ever edited it, and I didn't cite anything to it whatsoever. I apologize if I came across as super-duper dramatic, but I'm not super-confused. Just look at the revision history, 18:15 3 March 2014, which is when you added the IPT was one of ten foundations constituting what it called "the Islamophobia network in America" in what appears to be justification of the Islamophobia template based on the date/time stamp of the edit. I suppose coincidence is a possibility, but such perfect timing couldn't have been more perfectly planned considering it was added after Serialjoepsycho's comment (page-up): One thing that strikes me about this situation is that the article says nothing about Islmophobia.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 17:38, 3 March 2014 (UTC) He mentioned it again on 4 March 2014. It's very clear that there is some level of consensus that this group is tied to descrimination. Some of the wikiprojects that link to here show that. However in the article there is no connection to Any kind of descrimination. If this group is considered islamophobic by a reliable source it should be mentioned.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

What I find somewhat disconcerting is the fact that Serialjoepsycho, through no fault of his own, was led to believe the subject organization was tied to discrimination simply because it was linked to other wikiprojects. The latter further validates my concern that the Islamophobia template is WP:POVNAME that could prove damaging to linked organizations. It is not the job of WP editors to unilaterally commit an article as "part of a series" that includes unrelated links in the template in an attempt to propagandize a particular belief. WP:PROPAGANDA. I think it's perfectly acceptable and quite helpful to include a neutral template that is actually relevant to the primary article, and that includes related links in the navbox. For example, the navbox on the WP article Jews, and the template titled Part of a series on Jews and Judaism - a perfectly neutral, interrelated project with relevant links in the template. Atsme (talk) 21:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)