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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus indicates that this is a valid topic that hinges on the clear distinction between "pornographic" and "sex and nudity". Similarly, "Eroge" is a specific Japanese cultural term and does not apply to the wider genre. The article needs improvement and there are reliable sources available to facilitate that. Philg88 ^♦talk 09:31, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pornographic video game

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Having stared at this article for some time, and flagged it for reference deficiencies, I cannot see how it can ever be more than a dictionary definition. A pornographic video game is a video game which is pornographic. Surely all it can ever do is to elaborate on the term 'pornography' and stray into repeating text from articles on video games? Certainly at present all we have is a bit of CNN referenced description, a reference to something else entirely, and a list of papers which may or may not be relevant. Fiddle Faddle 08:00, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Agreed, pretty much a dictionary definition. Furthermore the topic is already covered by the very similar Sex and nudity in video games article referenced on the page itself. Nyctimene (talk) 11:31, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) • Gene93k (talk) 16:19, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:19, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Sex and nudity in video games. I agree the topic's not notable on its own, but I can see that as a search term and this linked article is a good target for a redirect, even if the term isn't fully called out. --MASEM (t) 16:22, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as original research. Placing the redirect as Masem suggests is not a bad idea. Ivanvector (talk) 16:57, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Eroge or per Masem. While there are non-Japanese examples, the most well-known are. ansh666 17:12, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if this should stay, but if it does it should not be at this title. ansh666 08:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
~~Redirect to Eroge~~ - "Eroge" is a word of Japanese origin, but that doesn't mean that the definition of the word is specific to games made in Japan. The Eroge article should deal with eroge no matter what country of development. Deletion should not be a consideration; "Pornographic video game" is a valid search term, as are the redirects currently pointing to this title. Neelix (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I was notified of this AfD because I "created" this page by moving it over to sex and nudity in video games. This article is an attempt to force a genre out of similar but unrelated instances, as was the original version. Just as "bus movie" isn't a film genre just because some films take place in buses. This should be redirected back to sex and nudity in video games. Similarly, saying that eroge should deal with American games is like saying that anime should include Caillou. We don't create articles about the world we want, we stick to the world that is. Eroge is eroge. A "valid search term" doesn't make something real or notable. Search terms are great places for redirects, and the "redirects currently pointing to this title" are valid search terms, which all (until recently) pointed to sex and nudity in video games. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 05:32, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not against a merge with eroge for now, but it should be absolutely without prejudice regarding a split in the future. As JohnnyMrNinja points out, eroge is a specialized form of pornographic video game, not a synonym. Anyway deletion which wipes out the history should not be considered here. I have a hard time believing that the genre (other redirected synonyms include adult game and sex game) hasn't generated enough commentary from the RSes to be considered notable. I'm unable to make a deeper examination at the moment, but a very quick search of Google Scholar, Google Books, and WP:VG's custom search engines using several obvious synonyms ("pornographic video game", "pornographic game", "adult video game", "adult game", "erotic video game", etc.) shows a large number of possibly usable RSes. -Thibbs (talk) 13:13, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looking into Thibbs' claims above, I find that they are accurate; there are plenty of reliable sources that discuss pornographic/erotic/adult video games as a genre. There also seems to be plenty non-Japanese games in the genre, from a look at Category:Erotic video games. There is plenty of source material that could be used to develop this article, based on a Google Books search. Articles should not be deleted simply because they are poorly written. As such, I am changing my !vote above to Keep. Neelix (talk) 16:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Erotic" and "pornographic", though they may evoke the same thing, are not the same thing. I am confused at why the author (User:Carrot Lord, now retired) decided that they are despite saying that they are not! I'd say move this to Adult video game or Erotic video game, which currently redirects here. ansh666 18:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources to back up the claim that they are not the same thing? What differences do you see between them? Neelix (talk) 03:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was going off the dictionary definitions. ansh666 03:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have access to a dictionary that provides a definition for "erotic video game" and "pornographic video game"? We cannot infer that the difference between the definitions of "erotic" and "pornographic" result in an encyclopedic difference between erotic video games and pornographic video games. Neelix (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect (revised !vote): reviewing both articles, Eroge is specifically about the Japanese genre, while Sex and nudity in video games is more likely what a user who types "pornographic video games" in the search box is looking for. It seems to me that Sex and nudity is the more appropriate target, but I think consensus is against me. So redirect to Eroge with a hatnote to the sex and nudity article. Ivanvector (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. While there are obvious issues with the quality of the article, I don't think this can seriously be argued to be a non-notable topic. Here are a few sources that deal specifically with pornographic video games: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Of course I can keep going. Pornographic games are a substantial industry in Japan, and have been the subject of political debate (one consequence of which was the banning of games depicting pedophilia or rape, which are still legal in the US). However, the phenomenon is obviously not limited to Japan, and ought to be discussed in global perspective. --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:01, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In response to editors who suggested redirecting to "Sex and nudity in video games" or something of the like, this is a bit like redirecting "pornographic films" to "sex and nudity in film." There's a clear distinction between media that contains sexual content, and media whose primary purpose is to arouse. --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that's true for film, where pornographic film is a distinct genre. That seems to be less clear in video games. Ivanvector (talk) 20:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's very clear. Do a google search for "hentai game." --Sammy1339 (talk) 22:03, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Which is eroge. ansh666 03:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's very clear from a Google Books search of the other terms, such as "pornographic video games". See also List of erotic video games which, if there is a merger or redirect, would be a more relevant target than the others that have been recommended. Neelix (talk) 03:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Question: The two main redirect target candidates mentioned above (Eroge and Sex and nudity in video games) contradict each other: the former claims that "eroge" is the generic term for erotic games (and then goes on to pretty much only talk about Japanese games and mention that all eroge have sexually explicit scenes) while the latter claims that the same term applies only to Japanese games - both have the term "pornography" exactly twice, each once about how some people think the games are porn but others disagree. This has led to my, and no doubt others', confusion over whether this or any related page is a fork or duplicate, and of what. Can we clearly define any of these terms, and decide whether any are equivalent: "eroge", "adult video game", "erotic video game", and "pornographic video game"? ansh666 04:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that is simply the result of somebody trying to alter reality through WP editing. Above I made the parallel to anime (Japanese) vs animation (generic), but eroge is a little less clear because there is no analogue in the English-typing world. Eroge is a respectable genre because Japanese culture and Japanese markets allow it to be. Someone probably felt that eroge should include all pornographic games (even though it doesn't) because then we'd have a box we could lump these other games into. Since they don't fit in the eroge box, someone else felt they should create one at the pornographic game, but it's the same story of trying to alter reality through WP editing. And if enough people read it on Wikipedia, it will become true. That's how the world got the concept of video game console "generations". ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 07:40, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

redirect to Sex and nudity in video games. No it's not an exact title match but this is not notable on its own and that's the closest match, and covers this pretty well as part of its current content.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 05:20, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Above I listed five sources that discuss pornographic games in general, but amazingly, there still seems to be some confusion about whether pornographic games even exist, or exist as a distinct genre. I would advise anyone who has such doubts to look at list of erotic video games, which lists a small selection of what is out there. You'll notice that most of the games are Japanese, but many are Western. Actually there is not only a genre, but multiple distinct subgenres of pornographic games: dating sims, wherein you try to convince characters (usually women) to sleep with you via text dialogues and are rewarded with pornographic images (there are some Western games in this category, such as Singles: Flirt Up Your Life); run-or-rape games, wherein you either rape people or try to escape rapists; a vast multitude of silly flash games like Super Deepthroat where you manually control sex acts (many Western games fall in this category); 3D simulators like those by ThriXXX (again, Western games are more represented here); training games like Slavemaker 3, wherein you train slaves either for sale or to collect a harem; MMO's such as Sociolotron and Adult Virtual World; and in fact other subgenres as well, with no limit of opportunities to not have sex with real people in person. --Sammy1339 (talk) 14:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see:

Source #1 is about a serious game, not for entertainment or erotic purposes.
Source #2 talks specifically about Rapelay, and calls it eroge.
Source #3 does not group these games in a genre besides the rating (AO, adult-only) or eroge.
Source #4 is inaccessible online even with my uni credentials, so maybe? Can't judge this one, the "abstract" tells us absolutely nothing.
Source #5 is a study about domestic violence and sexual assault in video games.
None of the "sources" in your comment immediately above are remotely reliable.

So, yes, it is right that there is confusion. And, even if you clearly established that "pornographic video game" exists as a genre, there would still be confusion as to where the other terms fit in with this. ansh666 18:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The examples in the comment immediately above were obviously not intended as sources. They are intended to inform those who are unaware of the thousands of pornographic games that exist. As for your criticism of the five actual sources, I think almost everything you said is wrong, but rather than dispute it point by point, here are five more sources: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:27, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again? Ok.

"...Japanese Youth Culture". About eroge.
"...serious games". Also about eroge, as well as about using them as serious games as opposed to entertainment.
"Animalization of Otaku culture". Guess what Otaku is? Japanese.
Now we're getting somewhere, but labels them as "adult/erotic games" - meaning a name change is probably preferred.
"...in Japan". Are you even reading these?

I'd seriously like to think why you think these sources are relevant. ansh666 20:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the article is not "non-serious pornographic video games of other than Japanese origin." --Sammy1339 (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, point one. The definition given by Wikipedia for pornography is "the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal". The definition of serious game is "a game designed for a primary purpose other than pure entertainment". Are these two not at odds with each other?

Point two: I'm not saying that sources about Japanese games and culture are not valid, but if we work off the definition of eroge as Japanese games only, they're useless to determine whether a general, international genre exists. ansh666 21:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re point 1: No, they are not at odds. Entertainment is not the only conceivable purpose of sexual arousal. Re point 2: I honestly don't think you seriously believe what you're saying. Do you dispute that many non-Japanese pornographic games exist? If so I can easily point you to, say, thirty of them (out of hundreds). Or do you want a reliable secondary source to say they exist in numbers? In that case see my source #9. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the first point. About the second, I do know they exist, but the question is whether they are considered a genre outside of Japan. Otherwise, claiming that they are is WP:OR. ansh666 21:39, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think the question of whether this is a proper genre or not is sidetracking the discussion here. The article doesn't purport to cover a genre and anyway whether or not it is a valid genre is a content question, not a deletion issue. The question is whether multiple RSes cover the topic. -Thibbs (talk) 22:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is obvious to me that there are multiple RSes that cover the topic. This source provided by Sammy1339 above clearly does, as does this book, this book, this offline book, and this magazine. Neelix (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's claiming that there are not such games outside of Japan (yes there are 100s of homemade games on Newgrounds alone), but they rarely get coverage in RSs, so they are primarily not notable. The few times they do get even minor coverage, the concept of "porn games" is only mentioned in passing. Outside of Japan each of these games are seen as unique. And no, linking to a college student's term paper does not count as passing GNG. And even if it did, there cannot be enough content provided by any RSs to expand this between a definition which is easily understood by the combination of those words. People will come here and learn that a "pornographic video game" is a "video game" which is "pornographic"; no knowledge gained. There is no way that this isn't already covered better at the other articles linked above. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 06:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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+:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
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+Note:  If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]].  When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
+The result was    '''keep'''. Consensus indicates that this is a valid topic that hinges on the clear distinction between "pornographic" and "sex and nudity". Similarly, "Eroge" is a specific Japanese cultural term and does not apply to the wider genre. The article needs improvement and there are [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]  available to facilitate that.  [[User:Philg88|<span style="color:#3a23e2; font-weight:bold; text-shadow:grey 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;">&nbsp;Philg88&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>♦[[User_talk:Philg88|talk]]</sup> 09:31, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
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 :{{la|Pornographic video game}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pornographic video game|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 October 29#{{anchorencode:Pornographic video game}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks">[https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pornographic_video_game Stats]</span>)
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 ::It is obvious to me that there are multiple RSes that cover the topic. [http://summit.sfu.ca/item/234 This source] provided by [[User:Sammy1339|Sammy1339]] above clearly does, as does [http://books.google.ca/books?id=XiM0ntMybNwC&pg=PA279&dq=%22erotic+video+games%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OU1WVJ_aIpH3yQTP34KIBA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22erotic%20video%20games%22&f=false this book], [http://books.google.ca/books?id=_HMCZcWeJf8C&pg=PA74&dq=%22adult+video+games%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vk5WVK_OOMeeyASNx4CADw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22adult%20video%20games%22&f=false this book], [http://books.google.ca/books?id=puFCnB_kcvMC&dq=Protecting+Your+Child+in+an+X-rated+World&source=gbs_book_similarbooks this offline book], and [http://books.google.ca/books?id=wyYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA196&dq=%22adult+video+games%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E09WVJTLAo2nyATR04LQBg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=%22adult%20video%20games%22&f=false this magazine]. [[User:Neelix|Neelix]] ([[User talk:Neelix|talk]]) 15:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
 :::Nobody's claiming that there are not such games outside of Japan (yes there are 100s of homemade games on Newgrounds alone), but they rarely get coverage in RSs, so they are primarily not notable. The few times they do get even minor coverage, the concept of "porn games" is only [http://kotaku.com/asking-for-no-more-bioshock-porn-means-we-get-more-bios-1532811682 mentioned] in [http://kotaku.com/5742397/nsfw-world-of-warcrafts-porn-tribute-has-a-trailer passing]. Outside of Japan each of these games are seen as unique. And no, linking to a college student's term paper does not count as passing [[WP:GNG|GNG]]. And ''even if it did'', there cannot be enough content provided by any RSs to expand this between a definition which is easily understood by the combination of those words. People will come here and learn that a "pornographic video game" is a "video game" which is "pornographic"; no knowledge gained. There is '''''no way''''' that this isn't already covered better at the other articles linked above. ▫ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#202040">Johnny</font><font color="#204040">Mr</font><font color="#206040">Nin</font><font color="#204040">ja</font>]]''' 06:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>