Talk:Greco–Italian War

Another pro-Italian attempt

The specific edit [[1]] is the epitomy of pov, "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance.". Not to mention that its completely out of the context of the primavera offensive, which, by the way, was another clear Greek victory. ("in the end the Tepelene offensive was succesfuully repulsed by the Greeks").Alexikoua (talk) 10:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For instance the claim that the Greek side was "running low on reserves of men and war material." is a result of the fact that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust... was serious ". I'm afraid that the editor who's is eager to add about the Greek weakness intentionally (and systematically) ignores the German threat in the Balkan theatre of operations in order to overemphasize the supposed Italian military supremacy. Thus, I won't object to present the full picture on each paragraph.Alexikoua (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled why you would object to my relevant and interesting edits on the logistical problems the Greek Army of the Epirus faced. The reliability is not an issue as they are quotes taken from Craig Stockings and Hancock's "Swastika over the Acropolis". So how can it possibly be a POV issue?? It adds to the article, doesn't subtract from it, and is perfectly relevant because it reveals the state of the Greek Army on the Albanian front.

The section deals with the Tepelene offensive that commenced on the 10th March. Is there another Offensive I don't know about? The Telepene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, but one can hardly call it a "victory" for the Greeks, if by "victory" you mean that the boxer getting the heavy blows from his opponent is "still standing"?

I really don't understand what your objections are Alexikoua. Can you please explain them more clearly and perhaps we can reach a consensus of sorts? Do you want me to include something about the German threat in the rear?

You can't just revert edits without a good reason Alexkiou and then seek a compromise if you have a valid point.AnnalesSchool (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It appears you have a quite weird interpratation of the facts (apart from cherry picking), since the Primavera offensive, as the Tepelene offensive is widely known, was a clear Italian defeat. As for the supposed Italian gains as you claim: The Italian spring offensive, which started on 9 March, made no headway, and the Greeks were able to hold their territorial gains until Germany entered the conflict".Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Something that may appear quite informative, is the conclusion drawn by Musolini himself about the so-called Italian victory you claim: zero.Alexikoua (talk) 14:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

But Alexikoua, you really aren't making much sense. The two quotes above have nothing to do with whether the Tepelene offensive was a defeat or not. Stockings and Hancock are merely stating that while the Tepelene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, they (and not me!) were only pointing out that "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Papagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance." How on earth could you even object to this mild and matter of fact quote from Stockings and Hancock, I don't know. And the Greeks were running out of their reserve of men and materials, and that the Italian Army continued to pose: "an existential threat".

What in heaven's name are you actually objecting to? The truth?AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Their very interesting links to authors Alexikoua, but hardly relevant. I mean, you have your authors who make certain claims, and I have my authors who make certain claims that either agree or conflict. Isn't this what Wikipedia is all about, providing a cross section of views and debate? Why would your references over-ride my references? Let's have both!AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, to be precise you are cherry picking your own authors, have you ever reliazed that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust from the Bulgarian border was serious"? Off course not, but Stockings and Hancock have realized it very well and the quote is from the same paragraph you are eager to add (2-3 lines below). Thus, to sum up, the problems of the Greek general stuff were due to the strong German presence in the Bulgarian Greek border in early March. Did you ever realized that Germans run the show? I doubt, but your favorite authors are very clear on that, in addition to a mountain a WWII bibliograpgy as presented. Italy did nothing more than 'zero', as Musolini admitted. You don't believe that zero means victory right? On the contrary it was defeat and humiliation of Musolini's regime.Alexikoua (talk) 16:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexioua, you are starting to sound like a revolving record and getting more and more desperate. One author you quoted states that the Italians achieved "zero" but while the Italians failed to push back the Greeks in the Tepelene offensive, Dr Stockings and Dr Hancock are merely stating that while the Italian offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, the Greeks suffered 5000 casualties and were running low on reserves of manpower and munitions. Here is what Stockings maintained: "Despite the fact that the Greeks held off the Telepene push, from mid-March it was clear to Papagos that there were not enough Greek troops to hold against both the Italians and a potential German thrust on the Bulgarian front." (p.78). Why is this so hard to understand and accept? Please put aside your strident Greek nationalism and start to accept reality and historical truth for a change.AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually all accounts agree that the offensive was a failure. It appears you are on a clear agenda. To say it simple, if an attack was a disaster then the victory goes to the other side. By the way it's the first time you mention the Germans, it's a big step since you tried to hide the German intervention [[2]]. The Greek army was out of troops due to the German intervention, not because of the (pathetic) Italian performance.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Stockings and Hancock

According to Stockings and Hancock, by the first week of March, "the General Greek staff were facing a number of serious problems." Not only was the conflict intensifying with the Italians, but they were running low on reserves of men and war material. The Italians presented what they called, an "existential threat" that continued to pin down the bulk of the Greek Army

However, the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance."

What exactly is wrong with the above? Can you explain your objections more clearly Alexikoua and propose some sort of solution?AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Your repeated attempts to try and spin this article into some sort of "victory" for the Italians run counter to the literature on the subject and are highly tendentious. Launching into personal attacks against other editors is the final straw. Further disruption will be dealt with here. Athenean (talk) 19:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I keep having to repeat myself - while not a great victory, it was certainly not an "abject" defeat either. It was a qualified and compromised "victory". But it certainly wasn't the great defeat that is is made out to be. And by the way, when editors launch personal attacks against me, can I come to you to lodge a complaint, Athenean?

One has to maintain neutrality and impartiality here because it also works both ways you know.AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

References

Edit-warring POV material into the article.

Three times now POV material about the logistical problems of the Greek army has been inserted into the article. The edit starts with the conjunction "However" which is a sure sign of WP:SYNTH and is also POV and WP:UNDUE. It is POV because it seeks to diminish the size of the Greek victory during the Primavera offensive by using synthesis and conjunctions like "however" which does not exist in the sources quoted. For instance another way to add this materrial would have been "Despite the logistics problems the Greek army faced it still was able to achieve a decisive victory against the Italians". But that too would have been POV and SYNTH since no source alone makes these connections. Therefore the editor who is trying to diminish the victory of the Greek army by edit-warring his/her SYNTH into the article should discuss how this material should be inserted into the article without using his SYNTHesis and POV. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. This editor is by now deep into WP:TEND territory. Athenean (talk) 22:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

A good way to find out what people find problematic about your edits is to ask, in an open and non-confrontational way. If an edit is rejected, try something along the lines of:

According to {citation of source}, the following is the case: {statement from source}. You have disputed its addition. How do you think we should express this assertion?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BRINKAnnalesSchool (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am ready and willing to hear how you think "we should express this assertion?" I am ready and willing to cooperate at all times.AnnalesSchool (talk) 23:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Fellas fellas, calm down. Dr K and Athenean, I am merely trying to bring back a semblance of balance within this article. This article has already been tagged: "This article may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints. Please improve the article by adding information on neglected viewpoints, or discuss the issue on the talk page. (August 2014)".

I am not trying to diminish any great Greek "victory" here. I am only drawing the reader's attention to the fact that even though the Greek Army was "victorious" in repelling the Italian Primavera Offensive, it did so at some cost, as Stockings and Hanson have pointed out to their credit.

However, personally I think it is rather ludicrous to describe repelling an offensive as a "great victory" by the other side. It seems that every time the Greek army withstands a major (or even a minor) assault, it is hailed as a "great victory"! The greatest ever in the history of the war! But that's just my personal opinion.

The material I added was fully referenced to Stockings and Hanson, so they are not my words or opinion, but the balanced and scholarly opinion of professional historians. Why shoot the messenger?

All views and counter-views should be included in Wiki articles. You are acting like a heavy-handed censor. What have you to fear? That the "great victory" of withstanding the Italian Telepene Offensive will be slightly tarnished? Are you really that insecure?

Well, I am open to suggestions. Apart from merely reverting or deleting fully referenced and relevant material Dr K because you simply don't like it as it might detract from the "great victory" of the Greeks, let us work together on how we can synthesize the material and weave it into the article. AnnalesSchool (talk) 23:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am open to suggestions. Apart from merely reverting or deleting fully referenced and relevant material Dr K because you simply don't like it as it might detract from the "great victory" of the Greeks, ... Leave the silly accusations and don't try to attack my motives by disingenuous and sloppy comments while completely bypassing my substantive comments as a mere case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. That's either a low blow or an inability on your part to understand what I wrote. Fellas fellas, calm down. Dr K and Athenean...: Another sloppy attack designed to make it look as if your perceived opponents are not calm. These sloppy attacks are the biggest sign that your arguments are poor. Now read my reply to you calmly and seriously and come up with a serious answer without silly or sloppy attacks or both and address my well-made points one by one and using quotes so that I am sure you read them. Start first with your use of the conjunction "however" and explain if the conjunction is in the citation or it is simply your WP:SYNTH invention. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Second that. Annales, your reply consists of trolling, sarcasm ("great Greek victory"), and condescension ("calm down"). If you want to be taken seriously around here, you would be well advised to tone those down, and instead address the points raised by Dr. K. Athenean (talk) 01:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem at all and have to disagree with the points you have raised. No victory comes without a cost, and that cost was spelt out by Stockings and Hancock. The quotes I used came from the same chapetr and pages of Stockings, was connected to the Primavera Offensive, because Stockings wrote this: One important aspect of the telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." (p.81)

So I am not trying to deny or tarnish the "great Greek victory" of all time! By all means, let's maintain and spell out clearly that it was the greatest of great Greek victories! It is simply that Stockings and Co are pointing out that while the Greeks had a "great and glorious victory", it revealed or masked some weaknesses in the "condition" of the Greek Army. I see no conflict here. The sources are reliable and referenced, and they have to do with the subject at hand, the Telepene offensive, and its consequences to the "condition of the Greek Army". Again I do not wish in any way to "tarnish" the great and magnificent victory of the Greeks - simply point out what Stockings is pointing out, that the "great victory" came with a certain cost to the Greek Army.

So, perhaps we can reach a consensus here and change the wording to include the above phrase by Stockings so that the reader is absolutely clear that it was and will forever be the "great victory" of the Greeks over the Italians, but perhaps explain to the reader that this greatest of great victories did come with a certain cost to the greatest army in the world, which as we all know, is the Greek Army.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

What are you hoping to achieve by taking a sarcastic tone? Nick-D (talk) 03:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I just want to make it clear that my insert on the "condition of the Greek Army" after the Telepene Offensive will not in any way, tarnish the great reputation of the greatest victory in the war. That's all. So if there are no objections, I will proceed to insert the original edit with the one above so that the reader is absolutely clear that the victory was not in any way compromised by the depletion of men (5000 dead Greeks) and artillery resources (one month supplies left)AnnalesSchool (talk) 09:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

So now you are swinging from silly and sloppy personal attacks to silly and sloppy exhibits of crass sarcasm. Until you learn to modulate yourself sufficiently well to stop exhibiting this behaviour and to start abiding by the policies of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOTFORUM, etc. etc. don't expect me to reply to your intemperate and AGF-defying tantrums. You can still try to modulate yourself sufficiently to reply to the concerns I raised above in a civil manner. Better still, you can demonstrate your goood faith by erasing your WP:NOTFORUM incivilities that you attempted to subject us to. Let me put this in simple terms to you: Until you sober-up and discuss the issues posed to you in an appropriate and civil manner without abuse and sarcasm your edit as proposed is unbalanced, WP:UNDUE and WP:SYNTH and it is not going into the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

By starting off like this: According to Stockings and Hancock, "one important aspect of the Telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." This will avoid any synthesis or POV issues. It can be placed in the original section, or in consequences. My sarcasm was to get the message through, which it achieved. AnnalesSchool (talk) 13:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

My sarcasm was to get the message through, which it achieved. True. But I am afraid the message you are referring to is the wrong kind of message about you. The only message that "got through" is that you are incapable of civil discourse and your ability is limited to silly and slopy personal attacks followed by swings to silly, sloppy and utterly crass sarcasm. And you still have not retracted your ridiculous attacks as I asked you to. You have to realise that you are using abuse as one of your techniques for discussion. Stop it. Consider this your final warning. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, you must put a stop to this edit warring. If my last reasonable suggestion on how we might insert the reference from Stockings and hancock into the article is not accepted and you become totally unreasonable, then there is no choice but to arbitrate this.AnnalesSchool (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

(unindent) By all means, feel free to "Arbitrate" to your heart's content. A word of warning though, your sarcasm, anger and aggression will be apparent to all involved and may end up costing you dearly. By the way, could you please learn to properly indent your comments? Poorly indented comments make it harder for others to follow the discussion and are also one of the hallmarks of tendentious editors. Athenean (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, you must put a stop to this edit warring. Again, you got things in reverse: You are the one who is edit-warring substandard and policy-violating edits into the article. Your latest offering is full of grammatical mistakes and it is still grossly WP:UNDUE. Apart from its elementary grammatical mistakes your edit: "one important aspect of the Telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." unduly emphasises minor points in what was an epic failure of the Italian fascist war machine and its floundering leader who personally witnessed and admitted this epic failure of his country, standing helpless at the top of a hill watching the routing of his army like a voyeur in the impotent state of not being able to do anything about it. Why concentrate on these minor points about an army who successfully withstood this onslaught by the Italians and not concentrate on the reasons for this abject failure of the Italian fascist war machine and its impotent leader? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Annales.: A couple of months ago you took the initiative to manipulate the very same book. Let me remind you that you disagreed that this was Greek victory one can hardly call it a "victory" for the Greeks. Thus, I assume that's a big step for you to finally admit that it's a 'great Greek victory', but this childish recycling of the same arguments turns to be disruptive. As the source you provided the only fact that made the situation dificult for the Greek army was the German presence in the Bulgarian border and not the entirely pathetic Italian perfomance which you itentionally try to neglect.Alexikoua (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

You two are off your rocker! You are both nuts! I suggest you visit www.comandosupremo.com/. Your article is mentioned there and there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon.AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)