Jump to content

Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz/1: Difference between revisions

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 160: Line 160:
*<nowiki>''[[Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross|Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten]]''</nowiki>
*<nowiki>''[[Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross|Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten]]''</nowiki>
* I strongly disagree. I personally prefer the German version. And I can spot a subtlety in one of these examples that reminds me of why. [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
* I strongly disagree. I personally prefer the German version. And I can spot a subtlety in one of these examples that reminds me of why. [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
* Agree with Hawkeye7. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 03:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)


=====Overlinking=====
=====Overlinking=====

Revision as of 03:26, 13 June 2016

Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
Result pending

2014 GA review: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz

The article has several problematic areas:

Sources

The article relies largely on one source for the article copy, containing about 160 ciations to Röll:

  • Röll, Hans-Joachim (2011). Generalleutnant der Reserve Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz: Vom Kavallerieoffizier zum Führer gepanzerter Verbände (in German). Würzburg, Germany: Flechsig. ISBN 978-3-8035-0015-1. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

Judging by the book cover, this appears to be a laudatory, non-peer reviewed narrative along the lines authored by other similar militaria literature writers, such as Franz Kurowski or his colleague from Der Landser writer Günter Fraschka [de]. WP:Biased may apply. Fraschka is used in the article for a couple of what look like POV, laudatory statements (please see Neutrality section below).

Judging by the book cover? Really? When we challenge a source for reliability, on en WP we use WP:RS. You are trying to use WP:OTHERSTUFF to challenge this text "appears to be", "what look like", "may apply", and make references to authors who have no demonstrated link to this book or author with a view to undermining it. I can't speak for it, but you'll want to do better than that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The bright line is verifiability, not a subjective measure of quality. Better sources are better, of course, but this meets V. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This source is fine. Most biographical articles rely heavily for details on one or two sources. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

The lead is overly long and complex, making it difficult to read. It provides extraneous detail which would not normally be notable for a military figure for inclusion in the lead, such as:

  • As an officer in the reserves, he participated in various military exercises during the 1930s.
  • At the outbreak of World War II, Strachwitz was appointed ordnance officer in his unit.
What is in the lead depends upon what is in the article. I have seen you removing completely relevant information from articles because you don't think they are "notable". WP:NOTABILITY refers to article subjects, not to information within an article. I think you may be confusing what makes a person notable and thus an appropriate subject for an article with what is relevant detail to include in an article. His military service is the main reason for the article, so information about the whole of it should be in the lead. The fact that he was a reservist between the wars is relevant to his later service and ranks he was promoted to, and the fact that he worked in ordnance is relevant to his career. As a veteran I am personally intrigued by the fact that he was an ordnance officer but ended up commanding a panzer regiment. I am sure I am not alone. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:18, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the lede is excellent, but I tend to use four-para ledes of about this length in my own articles -AI Mk. IV radar for example- so I'm biased in that respect. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Overly detailed

The article contains excessive intricate detail, such as

Here I agree, there is significant amounts of what could only be described as OT filler. The discussion of the Schlieffen Plan, for instance, has nothing whatsoever to do with this article. There are certainly places one can include such information as a background for explaining the contents of that article (as in the radar example above, one really does need to know about chain home to know how you get there) the materials in this case bear no explanatory power. But casting my gaze wider, I don't find that many instances of this, perhaps 10% of the article body at the most. I would argue that removing these would improve the article, but it certainly isn't a "bad article" as it is.
      • It has been impressed on me again and again that the readers don't want to interrupt their reading to click on the blue links in order to understand what they are being told. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Childhood

The section on childhood unnecessarily long for an article on a military man, especially at this level of detail:

  • Strachwitz was born on 30 July 1893 in Groß Stein, in the district of Groß Strehlitz in Silesia, a province in the Kingdom of Prussia. Today it is Kamień Śląski, in Gogolin, Opole Voivodeship, Poland. Strachwitz was the second child of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz (1864–1942) and his wife Aloysia (1872–1940),[Note 1] née Gräfin von Matuschka Freiin von Toppolczan und Spaetgen.[2][Note 2] He had an older sister, Aloysia (1892–1972), followed by his younger brother Johannes (1896–1917) nicknamed "Ceslaus", his sister Elisabeth (1897–1992), his brother Manfred (1899–1972), his brother Mariano (1902–22), and his youngest sister Margarethe (1905–1989).[3]. His family were members of the old Silesian nobility (Uradel), and held large estates in Upper Silesia, including the family Schloss (Palace) at Groß Stein. As the first-born son he was the heir to the title Graf (Count) Strachwitz, and following family tradition he was christened Hyacinth, after the 12th century saint. Some clothing belonging to the saint were in the family's possession until 1945.[4].
  • Strachwitz attended the Volksschule (primary school) and the Gymnasium (advanced secondary school) in Oppeln—present-day Opole. He received further schooling and paramilitary training at the Königlich Preußischen Kadettenkorps (Royal Prussian cadet corps) in Wahlstatt—present-day Legnickie Pole—before he transferred to the Hauptkadettenanstalt (Main Military Academy) in Berlin-Lichterfelde....
  • There is a requirement that articles be comprehensive. While I wouldn't personally include all the detail in the first dot point, for example I think his position in the family and the number of children would be sufficient detail on his family structure, the second one is completely legitimate and standard for any detailed biographical article where the information is available. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The more detail the better. For many of the topics we write about on the Wiki, the article in question becomes the canonical worldwide reference. As such I generally argue in favour of any on-topic detail.


Low-level unit actions

Military operations of low-level units are described in excessive detail, for example:

  • His patrol ran into many obstacles and they were constantly on the verge of being detected by either British or French forces. Their objective was the Paris–Limoges–Bordeaux train track. Strachwitz dispatched a messenger, who broke through to the German lines and delivered the intelligence they had gathered. The patrol blew up the signal box at the Fontainebleau railway station,[5]....
  • His regiment also crossed the border that day at Grunsruh and reached the river Lisswarthe at noon. They took Klobutzko that evening without much resistance. On 2 September they proceeded on towards Biała Górna, where they suffered the first casualties of the war. They then crossed the Warthe at Gidle and Plauno heading for Radomsko. Suffering further losses, they conquered Petrikau on 5 September. The regiment reached Góra Kalwaria at the Vistula via Wolbórz and Zawada on 8 September. Here the regiment was allowed to rest until 10 September. On this day, Keltsch informed him that Strachwitz had been nominated for the Clasp to the Iron Cross ([Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help))....
  • Kirchner received the order for Fall Gelb at 13:15, during lunch, on 9 May 1940. (is it important that the subject was at lunch when the order came in?)
  • Strachwitz's I. Battalion received the order to prepare for the attack on 6 April 1941 at 09:00. (is exact timing important?)
Wounds/leaves

Various wounds are described in excessive detail:

  • During the Battle of Uman (15 July – 8 August 1941) Strachwitz received injuries to the head on 29 July and was hit again by shrapnel in the arm the next day. He received first aid in the field and stayed with his men.[6] (It appears that the subject only needed first aid; this material is superfluous. In general, military men are generally not notable for having been wounded.)
  • From 1 December 1941 – 9 January 1942 he stayed at hospitals in Opplen and Breslau. He then went on an extended leave, staying in Groß Stein and Alt Siedel. He returned to the Eastern Front in mid-March 1942. Here he received the 1939 version of the Wound Badge in Silver on 17 March 1942.[7] (same)
  • Strachwitz and his driver, Feldwebel Haase, were severely wounded on 13 October 1942, requiring immediate treatment in a field hospital. A direct hit on their command Panzer caused severe burns... (same)
  • Strachwitz was directing the attack from his command Panzer and had ordered his gunner to hold fire. Strachwitz was carelessly resting his left arm on the gun-breech. The gunner, without orders, fired the gun, causing the recoiling gun to smash his left arm. Strachwitz was immediately evacuated to a field hospital.[8]... (same)
Non-battlefield actions

Non-battlefield actions are described in excessive detail:

  • Following a brief vacation back home in Silesia, Strachwitz was back with the 1st Panzer Division at the training grounds at Königsbrück near Dresden. During the preparations for the fall manoeuvres the General der Kavallerie (General of the Cavalry) von Weichs was dismissed. On 18 September Panzer-Regiment 2 was relocated from Königsbrück to Fürstenberg and then to Neustrelitz. Here, under the watchful eyes of Hitler and Benito Mussolini from the Schmooksberg near Laage, the 1st and 3rd Panzer-Brigade, supported by Kampfgeschwader (Bomber Wings), practiced a large scale tank attack. The regiment returned to Eisenach on 30 September. Strachwitz returned home to his estate but was called back shortly before the Anschluß, the annexation of Austria by Germany, in March 1938.[9]....
    No, this is important. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against orders, his jubilant adjutant, Unteroffizier Rosenstock, woke him up on the early morning to share the news.[10]
Non-military matters

Non-military matters are also described in excessive detail, for example:

  • Annual production at Groß Stein was 92,894 litres (24,540 US gal) and 116,386 litres (30,746 US gal) at Alt Siedel. Of his 4,109-hectare (10,150-acre) property, 1,182.6 hectares (2,922 acres) were farmland, 69.9 hectares (173 acres) meadows, 26.3 hectares (65 acres) pastures, 6.1 hectares (15 acres) water, 2,737.3 hectares (6,764 acres) forest, 10 hectares (25 acres) parks, and 6.6 hectares (16 acres) gardens, 35 hectares (86 acres) wasteland and 19.4 hectares (48 acres) buildings and farms, as well as 16 roads. His agricultural production included forest seeds, rye, barley, corn, potatoes, lupins and malt. In animal husbandry he had feral, cattle, horse breeding, Deutsches Edelschwein (German pig), merinos and fish.[11].
    Strachwitz also owned the manor in Alt Siedel with a property size of 583 hectares (1,440 acres). 278 hectares (690 acres) were farmland, 13.5 hectares (33 acres) pastures, 3.5 hectares (8.6 acres) gardens, 279 hectares (690 acres) forest, 1.5 hectares (3.7 acres) water, and 5 hectares (12 acres) were buildings. The manor in Einsiedel, in Freudenthal—present-day Bruntál in the Czech Republic—Upper Silesia, with its oak forests and farmland, belonged to him as well.[12].
  • The influential man behind Husni al-Za'im was Adib Shishakli, who wanted a Pan-Arabian revolution and was trying to run the state from behind the scenes. Seeing himself as a state-maker, the Otto von Bismarck of the Arabian peoples, Shishakli's goal was to transform Syria into a kind of "Prussian Arabia". He owned a Mercedes car which had once belonged to Adolf Hitler... (the latter sentence also appears to be trivia).[13]

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, p. 16.
  2. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 13, 16.
  3. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 20–22.
  4. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 20–22.
  5. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 20–22.
  6. ^ Röll 2011, p. 74.
  7. ^ Röll 2011, p. 93.
  8. ^ Röll 2011, p. 135.
  9. ^ Röll 2011, p. 148.
  10. ^ Röll 2011, p. 148.
  11. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 20–22.
  12. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 20–22.
  13. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 184–186.
List of junior ranks

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  2. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  3. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  4. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  5. ^ Röll 2011 p. 188
  6. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  7. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188
  8. ^ Röll 2011, p. 188.

Most of these are junior ranks and non-notable. This could just as easily be conveyed by stating that the subject finished World War as an Oberleutnant, and World War II as Generalleutnant. The section appears to be reproducing verbatim the subject's service record, which seems to belong in the archives, and not on an encyclopedia article, especially for a mid-level officer. Otherwise, the article looks like an indiscriminate collection of primary material.

Sorry, this is arrant nonsense. The career of the subject is relevant information. Promotions/demotions are all relevant, and are included in all quality military biographies. I suggest you have a look at some other military biographical articles and educate yourself, because you are way off base with this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:37, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. This is the sort of information that we like to include in every military biography if we possibly can. And at a glance I can see important points, like the fact that he spent twelve years as an Oberleutnant. I am constantly referring to articles to verify ranks at particular times. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Overcite

References

  1. ^ a b c d Scherzer 2007, p. 728.
  2. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, p. 413.
  3. ^ Von Seemen 1976, p. 331.
  4. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, p. 63.
  5. ^ Von Seemen 1976, p. 31.
  6. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, p. 41.
  7. ^ Von Seemen 1976, p. 15.
  8. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, p. 37.
  9. ^ Von Seemen 1976, p. 12.

Three citations for material that's unlikely to be controversial do not appear to be needed.

The reason for the three citations is that there are several "authorities" on awards the Knight's Cross, and they can vary (generally in detail) on the specifics of the awards. Given that, having all three isn't excessive in my view. Where they agree, it reinforces the authority regarding the specifics. I've used five citations regarding the contentious award of a lowly EKII, sometimes it is necessary for that reason, but in this case, three is ok. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiability

Extraordinary claims

This is an extraordinary claim and requires verification by multiple sources.

References

  1. ^ Williamson 2006, p. 26.

I would not consider Gordon Williamson (writer) to be an RS for this claim, judging by the linked article.

You would need to establish that Williamson is not reliable. Per WP:RS. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Potential synthesis

The article appears to contain unnecessary speculation which may be construed as original research/synthesis and is only tangentially related to the subject of the article:

  • Peter Hoffmann, a Canadian historian of German descent, published a book in 1969 with the title "Widerstand, Staatsstreich, Attentat. Der Kampf der Opposition gegen Hitler" [Resistance, Coup d'etat, Assassination — The Battle of the Opposition against Hitler]. This work lists Strachwitz as being part of the German military resistance to Nazism. With generals Hubert Lanz, Hans Speidel and Paul Loehning [de] he is shown as being associated with "Plan Lanz". But the only person to have testified that a "Plan Lanz" ever existed was general Hubert Lanz. According to Lanz, the plan was to arrest or kill Hitler in early February 1943 during Hitler's scheduled visit to the Army Detachment Lanz. In his account, the role of Strachwitz was to surround Hitler and his escorts shortly after Hitler's arrival with his tanks. Lanz stated that he would have then arrested Hitler, and in the event of resistance, Strachwitz's tanks would have shot and killed the entire delegation. Hitler cancelled the visit and the plan was dropped.[1] Author Röll casts doubt on this account. Strachwitz's cousin, Rudolf von Gersdorff, who attempted to assassinate Hitler in 1943, stated that Strachwitz had expressed the belief to him several times that killing Hitler would have constituted murder. Röll concludes that Strachwitz was too much a Prussian officer to consider murdering Hitler.[2]

Quoting from Otto Carius appears to be undue and/or speculation, to try to make light of the subject's unsuccessful battlefield performance:

  • Alternatively tension between him and the division's commander Hörnlein is thought by many veterans to be the true reason for Strachwitz's departure.[3] Otto Carius stated that:

Gossip mongers maintained that the Großdeutschland Panzer-Regiment was taken away from Strachwitz because he had too many losses. I had justifiable doubts concerning this claim. Graf Strachwitz and his staff were always employed at hot spots on the front, where they had to carry out extremely pressing operations, for which every form of support was provided to them. Painful losses couldn't always be avoided during those types of operations. But it was through these losses that the lives of many soldiers from other units were saved."[4]

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 182–183.
  2. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 184–186.
  3. ^ Röll 2011, p. 139.
  4. ^ Carius 2003, p. 100.
Non-verifiable by independent sources

Potentially unverifiable information is presented in Wikipedia's voice:

  • Strachwitz took the opportunity and reported to Hube, volunteering for service in the Stalingrad pocket. Hube rejected this request, stating that Strachwitz would be better deployed somewhere else.[1]

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, p. 110.

Readability

Translations

Unneeded foreign language translations for the terms already linked. Interested readers can click on the related links.

References

  1. ^ a b Röll 2011, p. 31.
Foreign language terms

Excessive foreign-language spelling of unit names and piping, when English language articles for this topics are available, for example:

  • The 16th Panzer Division was subordinated to ''[[Army Group South|Heeresgruppe Süd]]'' (Army Group South) under the command of ''Generalfeldmarschall'' Von Rundstedt. The goal, together with the [[6th Army (Wehrmacht)|6. Armee]] and [[17th Army (Wehrmacht)|17. Armee]] as well as ''Panzergruppe'' I... Etc.
  • ''[[Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross|Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten]]''
  • I strongly disagree. I personally prefer the German version. And I can spot a subtlety in one of these examples that reminds me of why. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Hawkeye7. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Overlinking

Overlinking to common terms (lung cancer, eulogy):

well, lung cancer, ok. It certainly appears to be unnecessarily linked, but not everyone knows what a eulogy is. Be careful in assuming that everyone has your own level of education and experience with language. Obviously Bundeswehr and Trostberg should remain linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:08, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The names of the towns too. I would leave eulogy linked. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, p. 31.
  2. ^ Röll 2011, p. 181.
  3. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 26–27.

Neutrality

The article is potentially non-neutral, as it contains POV language, such as:

  • He was captured by the French in October 1914 and almost executed on the spot for wearing civilian clothes. He was later sentenced to forced labour (if he was wearing civilian clothes, then perhaps he should have been sentenced as a spy) and after an odyssey (non encyclopedic language) through various French prisons and several escape attempts ....
  • Röll states that Strachwitz believed that he could better politically represent his Upper Silesian agricultural and forestry interests by joining the NSDAP.[1]... (this appears to be a way to explain away the subject's party membership; also the construction "Röll states that Strachwitz believed..." suggests that this is either speculation, or that Röll was writing the book from the subject's words)
  • Strachwitz, charging his Panzer III ahead of his troops, engaged a Soviet supply convoy.... (non-encyclopedic language; it is also unclear to me why "[[Soviet]] supply convoy" is being piped to the Soviet Union)
  • During the advance in France Strachwitz adopted the thinking that "Tanks must be led from the front!"[2][3]
  • Even in his role as supply officer he led "from the front".[4]
  • ...rose to fame for his command of armoured forces in World War. (It seems that only a few sources are available; perhaps he was not very famous)
  • During this campaign, Strachwitz showed such a talent for commanding panzers that his troops nicknamed him der Panzergraf (the Armoured Count). [5]

References

  1. ^ Röll 2011, p. 181.
  2. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 53–54.
  3. ^ Fraschka 1994, p. 139.
  4. ^ Röll 2011, pp. 53–54.
  5. ^ Williamson 2006, p. 26.

On the last point, it's equally as likely that he got the nickname due to his aristocratic background. Williamson is not an RS for the "talent" claim. Fraschka has been mentioned in the section on sources above.

Notes

  1. ^ Full name is Maria Aloysia Hedwig Friederike Therese Oktavie, Gräfin von Matuschka, Freiin von Toppolczan und Spaetgen.[1]
  2. ^ Regarding personal names: Freiin was a title before 1919, but now is regarded as part of the surname. It is translated as Baroness. Before the August 1919 abolition of nobility as a legal class, titles preceded the full name when given (Graf Helmuth James von Moltke). Since 1919, these titles, along with any nobiliary prefix (von, zu, etc.), can be used, but are regarded as a dependent part of the surname, and thus come after any given names (Helmuth James Graf von Moltke). Titles and all dependent parts of surnames are ignored in alphabetical sorting. The title is for unmarried daughters of a Freiherr.

K.e.coffman (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Comments by AustralianRupert: Thank you for the time you have put into your review. Overall, I think the article could be edited to maintain its current assessment status. I have some comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 05:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think you need to provide some evidence that Roll is biased rather than judging a book by its cover. Otherwise, as it appears to be a full length biography it seems appropriate to me that it is relied upon as the main source;
  • sourcing: "regiment destroyed more than 270 Soviet tanks within 48 hours": this should be attributed in text, but I don't see a problem with including it so long as it is clearly attributed;
  • Level of detail: some of this I agree with you on; however, I think it is important to remember though that the article should reflect the level of detail that reliable sources provide, otherwise it is not complete. As such, details about family, wounds, and small unit actions (when the subject is directly involved) seem appropriate to me, although perhaps the wording could be tightened. The coverage of the higher level strategy may be overly detailed, unless the subject was involved in developing it, although some context is of course necessary;
  • the annual production figures are probably not necessary;
  • "As an officer in the reserves, he participated in various military exercises during the 1930s": it seems fair enough to me to state in the lead that he remained serving in the reserves;
  • Neutrality/wording: I don't agree that the word "executed" is a POV term. Regardless of what side shoots someone as a spy, the term executed is a reasonable description. Nevertheless, perhaps the lead could just say "was nearly shot as a spy after he was caught wearing civilian clothes" or something similar.
  • "sentenced to forced labour": seems a reasonably neutral term. I'm not seeing the POV in that. Do you have a suggestion about re-wording?
  • "odyssey through various French prisons and several escape attempts he returned to Germany after the war in 1918": agreed, this could be tightened. Perhaps this would work: "...after incarceration in several French prisons and several escape attempts he returned to Germany after the war in 1918"?
  • "charging his Panzer": probably could be toned down slightly, but not generally POV in my opinion. Perhaps, "advancing ahead of his troops in his Panzer III..."?
  • "such a talent", the claim probably should be attributed in text, which would resolve the issue for me. For instance, "According to Williamson, during this campaign, Strachwitz showed such a talent for commanding..." Or, the "such a talent" bit could just be removed and and replaced with: "During this campaign, according to Williamson Strachwitz gained the nickname der Panzergraf (the Armoured Count)";
  • "Refusing to accept this, and showing tremendous willpower...": this should be reworded, equally I don't think the list is required here.
  • "unnecessary losses infringed by": should be "unnecessary losses incurred by.."
  • "letter Decker stated, that...": comma splice
  • "though Strachwitz was on the verge of going genuinely mad in the process": this should probably be reworded slightly:"though Strachwitz's mental health genuinely deteriorated in the process".
  • Your comment here misunderstands attribution policies and is not a fair criticism of the article: "...also the construction 'Röll states that Strachwitz believed...' suggests that this is either speculation, or that Röll was writing the book from the subject's words...". I believe that this is an appropriate attribution of opinion in the circumstances.

Comments. Agreed with every one of AR's points. (Normally I just agree silently, but this is a good article review.) Reading AR's comments carefully and PM's quickly, this looks like a "keep", though I'm not an expert on any of this. - Dank (push to talk) 11:20, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think this is an excellent article. Too long? Maybe. Too detail? Perhaps. Worthy of GA downgrade? Absolutely not, IMHO. Quite the opposite, I wish every article on the wiki was this detailed. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I agree with AR's comments above. With that said the article could use some edits for concision in regards to length and certain details; for example, I had taken out this sentence: "Against orders, his jubilant adjutant, Unteroffizier Rosenstock, woke him up on the early morning to share the news." I also hope that you, K.e. with think about the comments made by these gentlemen above for a good rule of thumb as we all carry forward on this project. Lastly, I agree the article should not be downgraded. Note: Once a general criteria is agreed to; using this one as a model, there are other articles, some of other classes, which should have a second look. Kierzek (talk) 13:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Here's the version that I had worked up before it has been suggested that the article go through current review and the changes were reverted: June 9 version. I believe it to be superior from the readability standpoint, as it addresses the issue of excessive detail and hard to read prose. Please let me know what you guys think. K.e.coffman (talk) 15:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get the sense you are taking the comments here on board, K.e. It is pretty clear that you, rather than a half-a-dozen Milhist coordinators who have been with this project for many years, have picked up the wrong end of the stick about this article. I think "what you guys think" is pretty clear from the comments above. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I think the current (original) version of the article is far superior, and disagree strongly with the proposed cuts (cutting out his entire early life?) I agree with Rupert's comments. I think that the level of detail of the article is quite appropriate, and the sourcing is fine. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Hyacinth_Graf_Strachwitz/1&oldid=725028452"