Wikipedia talk:Good articles

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October 2005 – January 2006 - initial discussions and debates 8 January – March 2006 March – May 2006 April – June 2006 June 2006 June - July 2006 July 2006

See also Wikipedia talk:Good article candidates for general discussion about the GA process.

Categories and geography

As suggested by Gnangarra about a month ago, I have started putting GAs into subcategories, by using templates.

I also divided "Places" in the Geography section between Eastern hemisphere and Western hemisphere. Maurreen 01:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Maurreen,

I don't support this move. It breaks the automatic listing of good articles. This could be fixed, but before we make the change it would be helpful to know the answers to the following questions:

1. What is the purpose of this (given that the articles are already categorized in the list)?
2. Won't this complicate the promotion process?
3. Why aren't the new subcategories part of Category:Wikipedia good articles?

Editing the new templates is also very difficult because one must edit each and every new template.

Cedars 08:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, never mind. Maurreen 09:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC) It's not important to me. If you want to change it back, go for it. Maurreen 09:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC) But I wouldn't have done it if anyone had objected when the idea was raised. Maurreen 09:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I, in fact, like the modification that has been added to the categorization since it shows that we counter, for some part, the systemic bias by having both of them. I think Maurreen's change is a good one. Lincher 14:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I also like the use categories it promotes the good quality articles. Gnangarra 16:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. About the subcategories and templates, I don't understand what Cedars means by "It breaks the automatic listing of good articles." In answer to the questions:

1. Putting the articles in subcateogries via templates allows flexibility that the list does not; the list puts each item in only one category. For example, all the biographies can be collected together. Articles on the geography and history of a given region could be collected together. The added flexibility could especially be helpful in work toward a release version.
2. It need not complicate the promotion process. The wiki is always a work in progress. People can still use the general template. If we keep the new templates and subcategories, the people who choose to use them can do so, and the people who don't want to don't need to. I or someone else could come along later and put them on, or not.
3. The new subcategories are part of Category:Wikipedia good articles. But because they are named "Wikipedia good articles on foobar," you need to go do the "W" section to see them. Maurreen 17:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I still don't support this move it complicates making a minor change to the GA template and adds more templates to a project that has already been criticised for having too many. However provided all articles are still added to the Category:Wikipedia good articles it should be less of a problem. Cedars 10:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean that you think the articles should be listed individually in Category:Wikipedia good articles even if they are in a subcategory? Maurreen 11:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it ensures there is an alphabetical list of good articles. Cedars 00:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

FA Facelift

FYI - I created a discussion on the FA Talk about making their page look similar to the GA page. I think this page looks great and would like to duplicate it over there for uniformity and such. Your thought might be helpful in that discussion as many seem to dislike the collapsible menus and sub-categories. Since you've been working with both for a while, I thought your insight would be valuable. Thanks Morphh 20:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what GA page their talking about since they seem to be referring to one that is "utterly un=navigable", but it's really up to them :/. Homestarmy 20:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

If anything I wish we'd get rid of the GA system, everytime I load the page I have to wait about 5 seconds for all of the things to open and collapse. It's really annoying. --SeizureDog 02:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree the current format was a nice touch when the GA was started but as it get bigger its getting harder to navigate, I wouldnt like to push this on to FA they dislike GA enough now Gnangarra 02:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 

In response to dicussions on the FA talk page here and on the GA talk page here. As well as the discussion on this page together with other discussion taking place on the FA and GA talk pages and talk pages of associated articles. I propose that this page Standardised formats for FA and GA become the only forum where consensus be developed for standard page and template formats for both WP:FA and WP:GA.

Information on when or which version approved

Featured articles and featured lists make available information on when the items were promoted so people can compare with the approved version and see whether it has deteriorated. This is done both with logs and through Template:Featured and Template:FL. I think it would be good to also be able to easily find out when GAs were approved. Maurreen 06:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree; a link to the version which was promoted would answer a lot of concerns about the reliability of this process. -- nae'blis _(talk) 22:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to do it to the template. Maurreen 04:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Rick Block set it up. Maurreen 22:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think this is a good idea. Cedars 08:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Maurreen 14:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Instruction

To indicate the reviewed version of a Good Article, use {{GA|oldid=nnnnnn}} on the talk page (replacing nnnnn with the id number of the reviewed version) rather than just {{GA}}. Maurreen 22:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Good Article template at DRV

Just to let you know, the GA template (which adds a star to the corner of articles like the FA system), which was deleted a few months ago before the project was established, has come up for Deletion Review, should you want to support or oppose it's re-creation. --GW_Simulations_{|User Page | Talk | Contribs | E-mail} 11:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't seem to see the listing.... Homestarmy 17:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The discussion is now closed; see the final decision by Xoloz or the last version of the review (do not edit!). The template stayed deleted. -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Aww, I wanted to vote :(. Homestarmy 18:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

For the record, what this means is that there actually is a consensus against adding a star or another mark to the corner of good articles. — mark ✎ 10:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

New proposal

Featured Articles and Good Articles are both Wikipedia processes to recognize quality articles. I created a proposal for greater co-ordination and integration between the two processes, so that both processes will be more successful in their aim of recognizing quality articles. Please read and participate in the discussion on the village pump. Thanks. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Linkability

Would it be possible to rewrite this page so that it patched subpages of content into it for each of the subjects? eg. Wikipedia:Good articles/Art, architecture and archaeology/Architecture. This would specifically enable Portal:Architecture (or anyone else) to provide a box on it's page that would be automatically updated whenever Good articles are added to the list here (I think by using {{Wikipedia:Good articles/Art, architecture and archaeology/Architecture}})? Currently we are duplicating the information on this page and have to maintain the portal to make sure it is current and correct - seems like an easier and error free way of doing it.--Mcginnly | Natter 00:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You could use a template, like Template:GA-bio people. Maurreen 09:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we have tried a method using subpages in the past. I continue to manually synch Wikipedia:Good articles/Trains for transclusion on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains page. Slambo (Speak) 13:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was the subpage idea abandoned?--Mcginnly | Natter 01:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps those who were involved in the redesign could chime in here? I think subpages could still work through transclusion even with the collapsing headers as we've got them. Slambo (Speak) 15:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It is easier for the script that updates the list to have all content on one page. I still submit the updates manually using "Edit this page" so having two dozen subpages would be a heavier burden for me to update. Cedars 07:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Are there any immediate plans to change the way this is done?--Mcginnly | Natter 15:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think this will help ... it will slow down the categorizing, the bot operation, the count updates meaning that multiple pages will have to be updated. Too much hassle for this to happen, KISS for this project. Lincher 17:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Dang, as it does put burden on the project coordinators to keep manually updating. I do wish there was a way to transclude, oh well. plange 00:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, if bots would be easy to create and would do a the cruft associated with reviewing then it would be easy to implement these changes (which I normally see in good light) but it is a PITA (pain in the butt) to try to do everything manually (it also comes with MediaWiki which doesn't update too fast ... thanks to BRION for the work put in). Lincher 03:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'm not understanding what you have to do manually to this page? I'm not being facetious, I really don't know. Hence my puzzlement. Are you referring to when us as reviewers come here to add GAs we passed? plange 03:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it's what I'm refering to. As of now, it isn't too much of a job to do to add articles in the right unwinding menu but if subpages are created as this idea refers to, then the amount of work will be increasing. Lincher 14:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't see how as you could include the little edit link right above the transcluded page and the user would be one click away just like they are now...plange 15:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that the page is already loaded altough if we do what is intended, then if you make a mistake choosing the right section/subpage you have to load multiple pages which loads the server and may render doing stuff longer. Ever tried to open a page and there is an error on the server, if the page is already loaded as it is now, it is much faster for the editing. Lincher 16:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

So from what I can gather the situation is this:- 1. For the people who update the GA page it is much easier to have it on one page. 2. For the people who run portals & wikiprojects etc. it's much harder to have the GA page as one page.

As there are more people updating wikiprojects and portals it seems logical that there would be less total work for the community as a whole to do, if the GA page had subsections that could be transcluded. I appreciate there would be more work for the editors of the GA page, but appeal to your community spirit to make such changes.--Mcginnly | Natter 12:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In any event, I'm still not getting, why:-

Art, architecture and archaeology

­ 

Archaeology

Archaeoastronomy — Archaeology — Egyptian pyramids — Great Pyramid of Giza — Mummy — (5 articles)

Architecture

Architecture of the California missions — David Heymann — Falkirk wheel — Hawaiian architecture — Kitchen — Moana Hotel — Presidio of Santa Barbara — Sears Catalog Home — St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery — Sunol Water Temple — Taj Mahal — (11 articles)

Art

Carolingian Gospel Book (British Library, MS Add. 11848) — Drawing — Iron Mike — Pigment — Schuttern Gospels — The Last Supper (Leonardo) — White Mountain art — (7 articles)

Artists

Alan Moore — Anton Alexander von Werner — Canaletto — Caravaggio — Hiroh Kikai — Jacques-Louis David — Paul Rand — (7 articles)

Comics

Believers — Graphic novel — Megatokyo — Newshounds — (4 articles)

Museums and galleries

Fremantle Prison — National Gallery, London — (2 articles)

Is any different to:-

Art, architecture and archaeology

­ 

Archaeology

Archaeoastronomy — Archaeology — Egyptian pyramids — Great Pyramid of Giza — Mummy — (5 articles)

Artists

Alan Moore — Anton Alexander von Werner — Canaletto — Caravaggio — Hiroh Kikai — Jacques-Louis David — Paul Rand — (7 articles)

Would someone explain? --Mcginnly | Natter 11:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Page version?

It might be a good idea to create a version of this page which doesn't rely so heavily on JavaScript, since 5% of people have it disabled! EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME | IMPROVEME 14:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe including a non-JS link to the transcluded subpage, alongside the JS link? -- nae'blis 15:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, scratch that: I tried again in Opera and they expand if the user hasn't got JS on, so there's no problem. EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME | IMPROVEME 16:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hooray for graceful failure! -- nae'blis 19:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don'T get the great failure here ... if people try it, then it can be implemented. I have started to add the page version to the articles.

In addition, it would be nice to have all the GA tags (FailedGA, GA, DelistGA) show the date and the reviewed version in question to make it easier to go back to the original reviewed version. Lincher 03:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Animals and organisms"

The phrase "animals and organisms" is odd. All animals are organisms. Perhaps it could be renamed just "organisms"? Even better would be "taxa", but that might be a bit technical. (And on a technical note, viruses are taxa, but might not be organisms.) --Stemonitis 08:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The usage of "organisms" is much more appropriate. I agree with you that this should be renamed. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Process remark

Recently, Lou Graham (Seattle madame) was reviewed and rejected to be a Good Article. I don't necessarily object to the conclusion, but the reviewer's remarks leave me wondering: did the reviewer actually read the article? It's not terribly long. If anything, I would say its main problem is that it is too short, and there should be a lot more archival research.

Please see Talk:Lou Graham (Seattle_madame)#GA_failed for the details, but just to give a taste, the reviewer asks, as if the article doesn't say anything about it, "Did her business flourish? Did she have success?" The article says (among other things) that she "[became] a wealthy landowner, one of the largest landholders in the Pacific Northwest. She owned one of the Seattle's great mansions…and 'contributed liberally' to projects sponsored by the Seattle Chamber of Commerce"; how much clearer can it be that she was a success in business? - Jmabel | Talk 06:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not appealing this; again, I think the article needs more material. But, still, I worry about a review process that can miss something like that (and several other similar items) in an article of only ten paragraphs. - Jmabel | Talk 06:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

For your information ... I don't read the lead section as it should be a summary of the article so it only left 1 paragraph to read. After reading it I was puzzled by the lack of information I could find in that paragraph. My concern as of now is that the article isn't structured like it should have been. The lead section is too long and there are missing paragraph. Sorry if this seemed to be a weird way of assessing the article but this is my way and if you disagree then find another reviewer for this as I try to give constructive comments maybe they were just misdirected have I had read the lead section. Lincher 14:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have now reorganized the article according to your suggestions. Frankly, I think that as a piece of prose it suffers from this. In any case, I'm not really convinced that it reaches GA status myself (it was my article, but someone else's suggestion to nominate it for GA); I'm not sure that I agree at all that an article this short really gains by sectioning. - Jmabel | Talk 02:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you with the idea of sectionning but when creating a fast entry list on artists or subjects, it is nice to have the lead section as a wrap up of the article rather than the long prose given in the article. It can also serve in Lupin's popups as it only shows the lead section. Lincher 03:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Article icon

Featured articles have their little star in the upper right hand corner of the screen ({{featured article}}). Would it be possible to do the same thing for good articles? I see no reason why not and people would easily be able to tell that the article is a good article without going to the talk page of the article Thoughts?--NMajdan•talk 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunently, some administrators are on a sort of crusade against something called "Meta-data", which those little star things represent. If truth be told, Meta-data corrupts the database, increases load times by 50 bazillion percent, makes articles look like cartoons, creates computer viruses, creates real life viruses, and makes your hair fall out. However, these symptoms are highly speculative :D.

Ok, in all seriousness, there are some people who don't like "Meta-data", it's just I find their reasons ridiculous. The point is, we can't have the GA stamp at the top of articles. Homestarmy 13:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying its more than just a template on the article itself?--NMajdan•talk 13:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

physically its no more than that, this topic frequently appears but attepmts to introduce it draw a sufficient response to prevent its use. Gnangarra 14:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I see that. I went poking around and found some of the discussion.--NMajdan•talk 14:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Another answer to this question... my sense is that the real reason that "they" won't allow such an icon is that they believe only "featured articles" should be noted; "they" don't have enough respect for the "good articles" program. Outriggr 00:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that we know. And for that matter, the GA project has to find a solid ground to work off of, which means having like 3k articles to compare newly nominated GA candidates. The project also needs to have clearly defined criteria for article candidates and in that sense, help, as the FA process is doing, in peer reviewing the article in a way to improving and not only give a pat in the back GA status award like some nominations get (e. g. Keane, Ottawa or Edinburgh). Lincher 02:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Show/Hide template

Do we need the show/hide template here? I want to be able to skim the categories for articles I might be interested in reading, like at WP:FA, without clicking two dozen "show" links. I don't mind on pages with just a few such templates, but to me it degrades how easy it should be to browse this page. Alternatively, is there a way I can set "by default, always show" in my preferences? TransUtopian 15:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It occurred to me after I submitted the above, that this page might have archived discussions too. Found the relevant one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles/Archive_3. I guess there's consensus if it's been here with little discussion since March, and my question is then more about how I can set every such template to always show by default. If no one here knows, I'll ask in Village Pump: Technical. TransUtopian 15:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, like this current style because it is easier for the addition of articles to the GA page and it prevents from going through lots of page screen before viewing something I want. I only open the tab that interests me and then I do what I have to do. It is something that saves from scrolling the whole page and loosing time in that. Lincher 16:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Myself and TheGrappler put the current look together when the GA page was merely a baby. I'd always hoped to come back to the show hide thing but didn't have the technical know how but worse no time to read up on it.

The code that adds the show hide functionality lives in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monobook.js and as you can see it is marked as experimental (I think it was borrowed from the German wiki). If you want your own personal preference to override the page behaviour, add this to your personal monobook.js:

NavigationBarShowDefault = 28;

(the number is the amount of sections on a page before they all get shown by default)

This will have the side effect of showing all show/hide sections across the site. It would seem to me that a bit of Javascript could limit this to just the GA page to get rid of this side effect - but I never got round to getting this working. I did ask the god of popups Lupin for advise but shame on me - never got round to taking it further.

It seems to me that if GA becomes more accepted code could be introduced specifically for it in the way that it currently exists for FA. An idea might be to have a show/hide ALL button for the GA page - maybe if FA had the same look there would be more chance of that being done by someone, but I know from reading opinions that many FA people don't like change and certainly don't like this look. I do not like the FA look and my hope with the work on GA was at least to highlight to the FA editors that there can be other ways of doing things even if it isn't the way we have chosen. Regards. SeanMack 22:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much SeanMack! Both for posting here and for giving me a heads up on my talk page. I added it to my monobook.js and it works! I prefer to see everything in all show/hide templates so that's perfect. Is there the possibility of altenate skins/pages/templates for FA like there are for the main page, so people can have the show/hide option for it if they want? TransUtopian 23:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure a skin would be doable to provide a button to show hide all, from the skins I have already seen, but it's outside what I have the time for at the minute. It would be cool if you could get a skin writer interested in GA though. As for FA I'm not so sure - I don't have the technical wiki knowledge unfortunately. All the best. SeanMack 23:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Good List?

There's been some discussion on Talk:The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Primary and Secondary Phases as to whether or not I should have asked for GA status for a list of episodes. My argument is essentially "Why not?" There's not a GA equivalent to "Good List" (i.e. a list that may or may not be on its way to Wikipedia:Featured lists status). If there are no objections, I'd like to relist the article as a GA nominee, and ask that instead of using strictly "Good Article/Featured Article" criteria, that a modification of the Featured List criteria be used instead. There are currently six lists of TELEVISION episodes as Featured Lists, but not ONE Radio Series episode list.... --JohnDBuell 16:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, reading over the GL requirements again, carefully, I might be barking up the wrong tree with my pair of articles, since they are NOT lists of links. But it may still be a good idea eventually to have a "Good Lists" program to parallel "Good Articles." Just a thought. --JohnDBuell 23:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Uniformity of Names

In several of the different categories on the GA page, names of people are listed in different manners. Under Music, people are: First name Last name and alphabatised by first name. Under Media, people are listed as: Last name, First name and alphabatised by last name. I suggest that these be made uniform by choosing one style. There is a third option of course: First name Last name, alphabatised by last name. I suggest the Third. What do you think? --The Talking Sock talk contribs 20:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The third can't be automated. The benefits to the project of automation are very significant so I would strongly oppose the third. I don't mind the current system where the decision is made on a section-by-section basis. In mathematics, the surname is generally remembered better than the first name where as in music, people generally remember both names in order. However I wouldn't mind a first name first system either. Cedars 11:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Places

Who came up with the idea of splitting this into "Eastern" and "Western" hemispheres? More importantly, why is Norfolk, in the UK and east of the Grenwich Meridian, considered "Western", while Bristol, in the UK and west of the Grenwich Meridian, considered "Eastern"? I suggest instead having "Europe", "North America" and "Rest of World" sections. Joe D (t) 15:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe "Europe", "Americas", "Asia and Oceania" and "Africa" would be more appropriate. Still I like the idea of moving away from the Eastern/Western hemispheres. Cedars 00:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the formatter

As per subject; I love this format of the subsections, so artilcles can easily be accessed through a kind of indexing system. From it I created Template:Christ, I suppose that this format will become the standard for new templates everywhere. Full credit to you, whoever you are. A J Hay 01:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Double the Catagories, Double the Fun

I've noticed that there a bunch of video game characters that are in both the Media and the Sport and Games sections. Does this mess up the count? I'm thinking that they should only be in one or the other, and it's not completely consistant at the moment besides. If they should only be in one section, what do you guys think? Media or Sport/Games? Note: it's even more complicated for some- Final Fantasy VII characters are in the game as well as the movie. --PresN 02:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I just went through and deleted the duplicates from the media section, as all of the ones there were in the Games section, but not all of the characters in the games section were in the media section. It was 15 articles, and the count has been adjusted accordingly. --PresN 18:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

4288

Please support bug 4288 which is an enhancement that allows general tagging of revisions. This will allow user and group defined tags which can then be used for things like this project and possibly other stuff in the future. Thanks. --Gbleem 23:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed new rule

I propose we automatically allow for delisting any article which shows no signs of having gone through the process, i've delisted and/or commented on a good amount of articles already which apparently were never reviewed or commented on even once for Good Article status, and it's slowing me down, because I give comments to articles even though they've never even been through the system. If we could just delist them immedietly without so much as a how-do-you-do, we could sweep the list faster and stop template-stampers far more effectively, because alot of articles i've come across just got stamped and left, exactly what the GA system should not be about. However, delisting shouldn't be mandatory, many old articles were here before the review system, it should be up to the sweeper to decide if an article ultimately meets the standards, but the sweeper shouldn't be obligated to do a thorough review for articles which have snuck their way through the system is what i'm after here. Homestarmy 18:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I oppose that, as you know. Nobody should be "sweeping". In my book, that's akin to disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point (your point being that the reviews are too lax). But my own opinions aside, it's obvious that nobody should be removing GA status without comment. One of the main requirements of delisting a GA is stating why it failed. Kafziel 19:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Uh, if we don't sweep the list, the tons of articles which have not even been reviewed at all will just sit there, and then this really will just be a pat-on-the-back stamp project, which would have little to no purpose. Homestarmy 19:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Perhaps I should be more clear on what I mean. I propose we not have to explain delisting articles which have not even been reviewed, period. Even articles which have had just one person saying "This is a Good Article" still count as being reviewed in my book, but every other article i've been seeing today wasn't even reviewed at all, or if it had, there's no way an editor would be able to figure that out easily. So as far as I can tell the GA stamp was just put up there, they were never sent through nominations mostly, and most of the articles were not even close to the lowest of standards, much less a Good Article. Homestarmy 19:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• So far as you can tell? What does that mean? There's absolutely no way to tell how much work a reviewer put into his decision. If you don't agree with the quality of others' reviews, you can delist the articles. But stating your reasons for doing so is absolutely required, no matter how crappy you think the article is. And if the reasons aren't valid (like nonspecific claims of "too few refs") then your removal can be overturned. The same way a simple "oppose" is not acceptable at FAC, your input is required for every failure and delisting so other editors have the chance to fix any valid objections. Kafziel 19:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Sure there's a way to figure out how much work a reviewer has put into their decision, if nobody has obeyed the very explicitly layed out instructions on how to review articles, and it has never even apparently been on the candidate page in the first place, then it is most likely it wasn't even reviewed at all, and the page was just stamped as a GA. I don't care how lousy a person's review is, if they've reviewed it, people should comment on delisting, but if nobody has even given a sign that they've reviewed it, I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially for some of the articles i've delisted today. Take a good look at Grid computing if you want, and please point out to me where exactly this article was reviewed, because I sure don't know how it got onto the list in the first place. Quality of reviews is no issue here, the issue is that no review seems to of happened at all, period, as in no consideration for any sort of standard was even contemplated when someone stamped these types of articles. Homestarmy 19:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Since you issued the challenge, grid computing was listed 11 March 2006, then reviewed and passed 19 March. The GAC page at the time said nothing about leaving reasons for passing an article; this was promoted within process. Gimmetrow 12:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• There wasn't always a process. "Good Articles" was created months before "Good Article Candidates". People could simply list articles they felt met the criteria. And the early concept of GAC was that articles you think meet the standards could be listed and if nobody objected within 24 hours, they became Good Articles. The process has changed as the number of nominees has grown, but that doesn't imply bad faith on the part of editors who either passed articles at the beginning of the project or who chose to go by the original rules after GAC became what it is today. Kafziel 19:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I was choosing articles compleatly at random today, and I saw maybe 3 of out of 12 or so were reviewed, and one review was from December of 2005, which didn't have any comment, but was by the editor who founded the whole project. We haven't had the review process for that short of a time that such an increadibly small amount of articles actually get reviewed. Homestarmy 21:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I did a mini-sweep about a month ago and I delisted nearly 50(!) articles. I compared with the current standard and left a message on all talk pages. All the delisted articles were promoted during the slap-on-the-template days. Recently I took a look at the reaction of those delistings. Most have ignored the delisting (either no active editors or just quietly continued to work on the article), one nominated without any changes (and failed), and one really worked on the article and got GA after nomination. RelHistBuff 10:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's really very easy to see if it was reviewed- did the person who stuck on the tag say anything about it at all, or did it just appear? There's nothing wrong with delisting articles that never went through GAC, there isn't a "grandfather clause" for articles that came in before GAC existed. --PresN 16:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Kafziel's point has not been addressed. The folks who started "Good Articles" did not have a formal process for review initially. Review was informal, and rarely logged. You cannot arbitrarily remove articles automatically because you don't like the review process; when they were admitted they most likely did pass the review process then in place. You can, however, propose articles for removal because they don't meet the current standards. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My argument wasn't to have permission to remove the articles arbitrarily, we already have that, my proposel was to allow us to just basically speey delist articles which don't even appear like anybody gave any effort. I don't see how there can be so many old-school articles listed that about 12 out of 15 articles I delisted yesterday had no sign of being reviwed at all. Homestarmy 17:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to remove an article because it does not meet the criteria, that's fine. You can't remove them simply because you don't approve of the reviewer's methods. In that case, you just need to assume good faith. And no, there's no basis for "speedy" delisting articles. We all need to provide specific reasons for failing or delisting articles, no matter how bad they are. Kafziel 17:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't checked every article that Homestarmy has delisted, but the couple I looked at he did give reasons for why it was, i.e. the criteria that they were failing. If he's doing that on all of them, then he's technicaly removing them for not qualifying as GA's, rather than the reviewing method (or lack thereof). --PresN 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he is currently. He was asking not to have to do that. Kafziel 19:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You just had to be there, some of these articles were just abysmal, even by the low standards of the project when it began, I don't know who'd pass some of them. I mean one of them was just a block of text and a picture, no sections, no lead. Homestarmy 19:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

#

How can the number of GAs actually go down? 81.107.36.208 03:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

a number of ways one is delisting, another is when an article is promoted to FA it taken off the GA list Gnangarra 04:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I was just amazed to see it happen to about a dozen articles over night... 81.107.36.208 02:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

One editor also found an instance where the GAAuto bot was double adding a few articles. Homestarmy 03:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That explains it. 81.107.36.208 03:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Assessment scale + GA

After a few lengthy discussions the other day on GAC I had thought that about how to make this more worthwhile wiki-wide. What if Good Articles become "A and B class articles" and was officially married to the assessment scale, an idea which has merit but doesn't appear particularly active. Presently it lists:

• FA
• A
• GA (B+?)
• B
• Start
• Stub

This is heavy at the top. What especially doesn't make sense is that GA's criteria are so close to FA (I've said enough about that already) but technically it's third rank after FA and A (FA, very very close to FA, and very close to FA?). And, to take that further, we're devoting a lot of work in the FA process to the gold (which makes sense) and the next largest workload to the bronze (which doesn't). So:

• FA
• A (included in present GA system)
• B (ditto)
• C (the refuse would wind up here)
• Start
• Stub

Nothing much would have to change here, except nominators would have two choices: nominate as A or B. A reviewer could: Pass an A, "half-pass" an A as B, pass a B as a B, or fail a B as a C. Everything transcluded at {{A-Class}} could be grandfathered into the list. Marskell 13:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think A-Class should be interpreted as the designation Danny aspires to in WP:100K; FA-quality but not actually featured. The problem with FA (and to a lesser extent GA) is that they require a centralised process - which is slow. On the other hand the 1.0 assessment scale is distributed so it can scale a lot more effectively.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

My concern is diversion/duplication. I agree with you that speed = scaleability, but if you have people working from same page, a slight decrease in speed can be overcome be greater manpower. And note the above is only suggestive; if, to be passed an "A", the criteria is "FA-quality but not actually featured", fair enough (although there's something of contradiction—part of the point of FAC is that one person alone cannot judge what is FA quality). Marskell 13:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what you are suggesting, but AFAIC GA is "A and upper B class articles which have been given a pretty badge". FA articles are A+ articles (i.e. brilliant, professional quality) which have been given a pretty badge (and a rather more thorough peer review). --kingboyk 13:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm suggesting making the assessment across ranges, avoiding top level duplication, and admitting and allowing for the things getting listed that are merely "B." When you say "A and upper B class articles which have been given a pretty badge" you're speaking about an ideal not a practice—or do you honestly think near all the GAs conform to that standard as explained on the assessment scale? Is Amanda Dowler "A or upper B"? It was made a GA three days ago with an insufficient lead, an insufficient TOC, and a grand total of 9k.

What I'm afraid of, however, is that people like the pretty badge so much this process is resistant to critique or calculated redirection. Marskell 14:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In principle, I agree with Marskell's proposition. The "GA" status seems shoehorned into the WP 1.0 assessment scale, creating a redundant level. Either an article is really good on all accounts (which makes it fit for both A-class and GA), or not. And if an article is really as excellent as an FA should be, it should go straight to FAC - if it is really excellent enough to be an FA, it will pass, and if it fails, it is clearly NOT excellent enough.

GA process is rather quick, but the GA criteria are rather strict, and I believe at that point of the quality scale even a one-person external review is very beneficial to ensure everything is up to snuff. So, I believe that GA should be equivalent to A-Class on the quality scale (not to say that the GA tag is a requirement for the A-Class status or the other way around), to make things clearer. Bravada, talk - 15:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that there are too many classes there. When someone is making brake linings or bottles of Pepsi, or cans of paint, or radar systems for F-18 fighters, the quality control people have two choices: either the product ships, or it doesn't. When a salesman tries to put you in a new 2007 Gadabout Roadster, he doesn't get paid half-commission for almost making a sale. If you haven't read at least one of Phil Crosby's books, you oughta take a break and do it right now because that's what we're talking about - quality control - and the reason he sold so many books is because he made the point that either a product measures up, or else it doesn't. A product with more features doesn't have better quality; quality is just a matter of meeting specifications. If a widget needs to be between 0.9 and 1.1 inches, you're wasting money trying to ensure that it's between 0.99 and 1.01 inches. And if you're shipping widgets that are 0.88 inches, you're wasting your fleet, because they're just going to come right back.

We don't need forty-leven categories. Either an article is satisfactory or it's not. If an article violates the NPOV/NOR/V content policies, if the writing is not clear and understandable, if the article is incomplete, or it contains illegal content, it's NUTS - Not Up To Snuff. If it meets Wikipedia standards, then it's a Good Article.

There will be articles that stand out, pieces of art, with writing that sparkles, and illustrations that really hit the mark. Those get the FA stamp of approval.

But there's a tendency to impose a minimum length on GAs. "It's a stub", people say - but that's not what a stub is. A stub is a too-short version of an article that ought to be longer. If a subject can be covered well in one paragraph, then it ought to be covered well in one paragraph, and labeled as a journeyman-grade, meets-the-specifications, Good Article.

But all this A-grade, B-grade, C-grade, D-minus, stuff is counterproductive. If an article doesn't meet Wikipedia standards, why should the creators be rewarded for a half-fast effort? If an article is satisfactory, why should it be denied recognition, simply because it's a small bite? Web pages stretch. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 16:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Coming from the assessment side of things, rather than the GA side: utterly unacceptable idea. The reason the GA level seems shoehorned into the scale is because it was shoehorned after people started using a mindless GA tag → A-Class assessment approach. The entire point of the assessment system is that it is run by the WikiProjects themselves, rather than hanging off a central process (especially one with a less-than-stellar track record). A number of projects (notably WP:TROP and WP:MILHIST, but I suspect there are others) already have a more rigorous system of reviewing potential A-Class articles than the GA setup provides; to collapse the two levels would eliminate that distinction, and prevent the projects from actually assessing articles properly on their own. Better to remove the GA "level" from the scale and have it be an entirely unrelated system. Kirill Lokshin 17:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

While your points on the Wikiprojects are well taken the conclusion is odd: "Better to remove the GA "level"...and have it be an entirely unrelated system." Why?! Wikipedia is one unitary process. Parallel means of assessment for the same subjects are never a good thing (do you show up if the HR manager gives you the job but the Office Manager says no?). And I've been told repeatedly that this is an assessment process, not an improvement drive.

And this is what I find so difficult here—a total resistance to marrying this to other projects. This won't be married to FA (say as a featured article drive), nor even have its criteria properly distinguished from that process; should not become a means of identifying good short articles; should not be actually thrown open further as a mass-tag drive; should not be linked to other assessment systems.

So what the hell is it for? Marskell 17:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Identifying the many, many articles in Wikipedia which are good, but are not exceptional like an FA should be. Homestarmy 17:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Right. Or a less stressful way of getting some recognition than going through an FAC. And, AFAIC, a decent bridge between B class and FA, not that GA was designed with WP1 in mind nor are the two projects important to each other. --kingboyk 17:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

To repeat, rephrased: if it is identifying anything contrary to, or out of sync with, other identification processes it needs repair/marrying. "A decent bridge between B class and FA"—that was, actually, what I was thinking with the initial thread. Formalizing that should be a goal (not by making it lengthier, but simply re-targetting its instructions). Kirill raises a dilemma with the projects, but this is not insurmountable; if MilHist has the best means of identifying "A", copy it here. "But that will take up time"—having Homestarmy removing dozens at once because the process is leaky, takes up time too (I noticed today in the history).

I don't know. I just have this sneaking suspicion the congratulation/recognition bit is the real (misplaced) driver here, and that people are happy to keep the process in a vacuum if they can hand out green targets. Marskell 18:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Meh. The GA system was developed because some people felt that FAC was too difficult; the obvious result is that it's significantly more forgiving of faults in articles. This means it won't be taken seriously as an intermediate level between FA and B, however, because passing a GA review reveals very little about how well an article would fare at FAC (due to the laxity of the standards and the rapid pace of the reviews). If the system were to be recrafted to follow the A-Class reviews used by some WikiProjects, it would essentially become FAC "lite"—particularly as the entire one-reviewer-pass system would need to be removed—and thus suffer from the same issues of scale that would make it more efficient to decentralize it through the WikiProjects anyways (not to mention becoming thoroughly unsatisfying to the people who wanted a laxer system in the first place). Kirill Lokshin 18:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. As Kirill says, this would be unacceptable for some projects; WP:TROP has an extensive checklist to determine which articles should be A-Class and which ones stay at GA. We have an assessment subpage, similar to the "FAC lite" Kirill refers to. For us, A-Class means ready for FAC, so GA cannot provide that analysis; however, articles which wouldn't pass GA are left as Bs. Titoxd^(?!?) 18:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I take the point about project standards likely not being replicable here, but the rest of it's more befuddling logic to me. We want to keep this process lax because we need a lax process. In fact, it's forgiving to the point that marrying it to FA is impossible and it won't be taken seriously as an assessment scale. So, square one. What purpose does it serve? Somebody now tells me "to identify things that are good but not FA" and then I re-post my second last, question unanswered, and so on. Marskell 18:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite honestly, I have no idea; I didn't agree with the creation of this process—and the rampant shoehorning of it everywhere else—to begin with. Some people, however, seem to feel that we need a lax process; I've never understood their arguments either. Kirill Lokshin 18:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem, I think, lies with the fact that A-class is determined by the projects, and to my knowledge is only routinely formally assessed by a total of two projects (WP:TROP and WP:MILHIST), while the other 104 projects have no real idea what to do with it. Stub, Start, and B-class is easy, GA and FA are easy (you ship it off to the black box, and either you get it or you don't), but A-class? Even a large project like WP:CVG hasn't really discussed it, and just uses GA for anything above B. Nifboy 19:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The entire assessment system isn't that old, though; I suspect that, now that we have several working examples, the larger WikiProject may start adopting more formal review systems. Kirill Lokshin 19:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

(To Nifboy after conflict)

Only a 104? I actually thought more—the rash of idle projects is a topic in itself.

Again, the A-class thing was only suggestive. In fact, that only two projects use it might be a boon: see what they do, and try to make something scaleable project-wide. That's much easier to do if there isn't fifty different systems. Per recent "top-level" comments of 100k "feature quality" articles as a goal, some quicker process may be needed—but GA as it is isn't it, as the input procedure is too diffuse. Re ease, I'm not quite sure I understand how "A" on a project is easier than FA. You don't ship it off and get it or not; you ship it off and then pick at the fu**er for a week-and-a-half.

Anyhow, I just suggested elsewhere coming up with a quick list of "refocussing possibilities" and thinking of them outside GA talk itself. Suggesting reform ideas in medias res just seems to lead to a lot of talk circularity. Marskell 20:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I stopped following sometime ago, but here's what I think - GA should not be a "lax" and "forgiving" process to allow instant recognition, it should be a process that allows for quick and fuss-less identification and recognition of articles that comply really well with all Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and are generally really good encyclopedic articles. The differences between the GAs and FAs on given subjects might be quite small in substance, but large when the effort is considered. So, GA should be the status all articles should be striving for, as it means they are "complete" and can be left like that, while FA is for articles that really excel, and not all articles HAVE to reach that status.

In other words, we need a process that would be able to handle large amounts of articles that are "there", as ideally all Wikipedia articles should be developed to the stage when they are really good encyclopedic articles, even if they are not outstanding. That said, there are calls and attempts to make the GA standards tighter and more consistently applied, so I guess GA will be shaking off its questionable image in near future.

Concerning A-Class and WikiProjects, I believe you are thinking the wrong way - if there is a process that has even higher standards than GA - i.e. all GA formal requirements, including reviewing by a person not involved with editing the article, but also something extra, like checking for some topic-specific characteristics - it would be great to make it equivalent to GA in the way that all articles that pass it are automatically GA! It would be great if we could gradually "outsource" reviewing of articles on some topics to WikiProjects, as this would make it easier to find reviewers ready to process lenghty articles on specialist subjects, and also some useful standards might be developed for similar articles, which would make reaching the GA level easier. Bravada, talk - 02:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)