Talk:Russo-Georgian War

the worst article on wiki by a mile

so biased and badly written you wouldnt believe it was protected and allowed to exist in its current state. So pov and anti-russian its laughable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:201:E700:6D5E:80C2:F710:4224 (talk) 10:08, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

That's true, but you have to admit it's a good laughing material. The fact that this article is allowed to exist in current form is a true testament to Wikipedia deficiencies - where objectivity is basically one person's opinion. I like how Library of US Congress is used as a source of "poor Georgians were only defending themselves from Ossetians attacking them" while there are countless sources claiming the attack was unprovoked. But hey, let's trust American Congress, they sure look to be reasonable people and they always tell the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.8.106.157 (talk) 16:41, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

You aware that the Library of Congress <> U.S. Congress? It's actually the American national library and, as such, contains documents referenced here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:52, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.4 (talk) 10:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

EU Report

I checked the archives and found no consensus that the BBC and Der Spiegel articles were not allowed. Since the publishers of these respected journals think the story is relevant, I see no reason why we shouldn't. – [1] – per WP:RS and WP:NPOV.

European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009.

-- Tobby72 (talk) 08:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Rejection of your edits from many editors means no consensus [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]. I found this discussion in the archives [11], where editors were against insertion of your pictures and text. The European-sponsored report is currently condemned. I think that citing the Munich Agreement there [12] is irrelevant. Canome (talk) 15:09, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

@Canome: Please can you provide reliable sources to back up your statement that the "European-sponsored report is currently condemned". An assertion by a Georgian-POV Wikipedia editor in the talk page archive does not count. Nor does an assertion by Saakashvili.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Which one is Georgian-POV editor? I can't comment on Saakashvili's position. Did Saakashvili comment in the talk page archive? I read the comment left by anonymous editor. This Russo-Georgian War article provides more recent sources which disagree with the EU-published report. The EU 2015 report [13] says that Russia attacked Georgia and Europe appeased to Russia. The 2015 report does not say that Georgia attacked Russia. The 2009 report can be considered as a form of appeasement. The Responsibility for the Russo-Georgian War article says that the report was criticized and some of its contents were questioned. Canome (talk) 15:54, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

See Talk:Russo-Georgian War/Archive 35#Misleading lede, in which UA Victory responded to an unsigned comment by Mitochondrial Eve.[14], explaining why information from the 2009 EU report should "not be a substantial reason for a complete overhaul, because some new researches have been published since 2009."

UA Victory cited an European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) article dated 2015, which said: "The very limited Russian information operation were effective in influencing Western (particularly German) public opinion, which soon tilted towards the Russian version of the events. Lines of Russian disinformation even penetrated the EU's own final report, which overplayed the significance of US support and military assistance to Georgia."
By "EU's own final report" is meant the 2009 report, which is linked to in both the original and my quotation of it.

I believe that Saakashvili disagreed with the 2009 EU report, but I cannot find a reference.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:57, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

The neutrality/reliability of the 2009 report is indeed disputed. Wikipedia should not present some controversial statements of such reports as undisputed facts. The Responsibility for the Russo-Georgian War article neutrally presents many conclusions reached by the EU-sponsored commission. Tobby72 inserted a single controversial statement here, which conveyed the message that Georgia was responsible for initiating hostilities. That statement contradicted the page 50 of this paper [15] I had recently read. I read in the talk page archive that the 2009 EU report said that there was "no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone." The article on responsibility also explains the controversy caused by some statements of the 2009 report. I agree with Banedon that the article on responsibility is the best place for the 2009 EU report. The article on responsibility also mentions other reports.

I believe that recent EU documents on Russia don't reference the 2009 report. Everyone can change their position. The position of the 2015 EU report on Russia [16] is different from 2009. The 2015 EU document acknowledges that the EU was appeasing Russia following the war. This comes straight from the horse's mouth. How reliable is the 2009 report written in that appeasement period? If the EU had put the blame for initiating hostilities on Russia, the EU would have to impose sanctions on Russia. My point is that the 2009 report is not the final verdict on the war. Canome (talk) 19:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Canome's arguments. --g. balaxaZe★ 20:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi, @Canome:. I don't see how the link you posted "acknowledges that the EU was appeasing Russia". Can you please explain? Ph1ll1phenry (talk) 13:57, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Page 3/7 of the link, point B, it says " the EU opted for an increased cooperation model as a way to appease Russia". On the other hand I don't see how this is relevant to the current article. Banedon (talk) 14:22, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

That is a draft document that does not appear to refer to the 2009 "Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia". Furthermore, any mention of "appeasement" does not appear in the final text at all (I believe it's here [17]). This final draft also does not refer to the 2009 IIFFMCG document. So, how can we possibly say that the EU has repudiated this report (the document that @Tobby72: is proposing to reference)? Ph1ll1phenry (talk) 16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Rejection of previous edits does not mean this edit is also rejected. I'm also still waiting for your response to the above PoV objection. Banedon (talk) 15:23, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

@Canome: The 2009 report does not say that Georgia attacked Russia. The report says that Georgia attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) and the surrounding areas. -- Tobby72 (talk) 20:10, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the EU "reaction" because, on reading the section again, it's not a reaction. The other leaders responded immediately after the attack (in 2008) while the EU report was in 2009. It was also aimed at determining the events that led to beginning of hostilities, not a critique on whether's Russia's actions were right or wrong. The content is fine in the article on responsibility, or in an appropriate section here, but not this one. Banedon (talk) 02:11, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

It may be true that many in the EU thought in 2009 that the war was the result of Saakashvili's foolish provocation. However, it is now widely accepted that Putin's stooges started the war and forced Saakashvili's hand. https://euobserver.com/foreign/132425 Anybody, who says otherwise, must be either a victim of Russia's disinformation campaign or a shill. Pro-Russian people are the only cause of disputes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.5 (talk) 20:06, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

The EU did not officially retract its report. The 2009 report is still valid. Your thoughts are irrelevant.

Compromise version:

European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008." – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009. – However, the ECFR article stated in August 2015: "The very limited Russian information operation were effective in influencing Western (particularly German) public opinion, which soon tilted towards the Russian version of the events. Lines of Russian disinformation even penetrated the EU's own final report, which overplayed the significance of US support and military assistance to Georgia." – "In the shadow of Ukraine: seven years on from Russian-Georgian war". European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR). August 6, 2015.

-- Tobby72 (talk) 08:19, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit.

Can you please provide citations? The official website of the European Parliament seems to disagree with you. "The European Parliament ... having regard to the report of the International Fact-Finding Commission on the Conflict in Georgia published on 30 September 2009 (the Tagliavini Report) ... welcomes the Tagliavini Report and supports its main observations and conclusions" [18]. If the European Parliament has since repudiated this assessment then can you please provide links to this repudiation from the European Parliament's own website? Thanks. Ph1ll1phenry (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

The European Parliament welcomed the 2009 report in 2010. Is there any proof that the EU still supports the 2009 report? The 2015 report [19] admitted that the EU was appeasing Russia and the final resolution of the European Parliament [20] said basically the same: "the EU opted for an increased cooperation model as a way to continue the engagement with Russia." The increased cooperation with aggressors instead of punishment is a kind of appeasement. That appeasement period ended in 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine. The Great Powers appeased Germany and supported German territorial claims in Czechoslovakia in 1938, however, after the WWII, the Munich Agreement was no longer valid. Tobby72's text puts emphasis on Georgian action against Tskhinvali, however, the 2009 report also has the following statements: "any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August," and "it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents." I also don't understand what Tobby72 tries to achieve. I find Tobby72's edit as WP:UNDUE and a violation of WP:NPOV. The current consensus among analysts is that Russia invaded Georgia because Russia wanted to halt NATO's expansion [21], not because Georgia 'started unjustified war'. Canome (talk) 20:09, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

the Kremlin spent millions in an international information campaign to blame Georgia for the war; however there is abundant evidence...

The following sentence keeps having the underlined portion deleted:

According to political scientist Svante Cornell, the Kremlin spent millions in an international information campaign to blame Georgia for the war; however there is abundant evidence, including some in Russian media, that Russia actually started the war.

The source for this sentence is:

Svante Cornell (17 June 2009). "Georgia feels Russia's heavy hand". The Guardian.

The source says:

Moscow also spent millions in a public relations campaign to convince the world that Georgia, not Russia, started the war – in spite of plentiful evidence to the contrary, with the most damning reporting coming from Russia's own media.

The source for this is an opinion-piece; i.e. it is a statement of the author's opinion. WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV says that "Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution." This has been done by prefacing the statement in the article with "According to political scientist Svante Cornell".-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not challenging this because it is biased, but because of the place it is in the article. It is appropriate in a section on responsibility for the war. It is not appropriate in a section called "Media and cyber war". A section on the cyber war can go into details about what both sides did in cyberspace, but it should not say anything about who is responsible. Banedon (talk) 00:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

But the sentence is about the Russian public relations campaign.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:23, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The first part of it is, the second part is not. Banedon (talk) 08:25, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

They are inextricably linked. The second part tells the reader the nature of the first part.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Why are they inextricably linked? There are two parts to the sentence. Part 1 says Russia conducted an information war to blame Georgia for the war. Part 2 is that Russia is responsible for starting the war. You can have part 1 without part 2, and vice versa. Banedon (talk) 13:59, 22 February 2017 (UTC)