Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Russo-Georgian War/1

Russo-Georgian War

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: The majority favor keeping on the grounds that the article is sufficiently well cited and neutrally written. The neutrality tag on the article was removed a long time ago, and any remaining issues can likely be resolved without delisting.Challenger.rebecca (talk) 05:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article used to be a hotbed of tendentious editing from pro-Russian and anti-Russian POV perspectives for years. During 2014 and 2015 it was heavily edited mostly by UA Victory (talk · contribs), clearly with the anti-Russian POV dominating. It was passed as GA twice by the same person, Jonas Vinther (talk · contribs), first in December 2014 and then again in July 2015, after it had in the meantime been demoted by Nikkimaria (talk · contribs) because of copyvio concerns. While the copyvio concerns may have been fixed during the process, there appear to be still heavy concerns regarding the POV slant, which J.V.'s review didn't address, as currently documented in several threads on the article talkpage (see [1] and previous postings). Jonas Vinther was himself topic-banned from certain political-historical topic areas because of heavy concerns of tendentious editing later in 2015, which indicates that his judgment of NPOV writing on matters of military history must be unreliable (the topic area he was banned from, Nazi Germany and WWII, is at least indirectly related to the present topic, insofar as both involve matters of warfare against Russia). There has also been substantial edit-warring by the main author, UA Victory, pushing some even more overtly tendentiuos wording into the article [2], [3][4][5].

In view of the concerns that have been raised on the talkpage recently, I believe the article is in need of a thorough NPOV check, including checking for subtle skewed POV messages through tendentious choice of language, but also choice of sources, correctness of representation of sourced claims, and overall balance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I have a question for you: If some antisemits or Neo-Nazis don't like some Wikipedia article on the Third Reich or Holocaust because it describes some facts they dislike, and express their frustrations on the article talk page, does that make the said article POV?

I'm all ready for the article to be checked and all issues to be fixed. I don't have an anti-Russian POV, perhaps I'm a bit critical of the Russian government, but all I care about is historical accuracy. Did it occur to you that perhaps I studied the war extensively and I know more facts than any other average Wikipedian? This was expected since this is a relatively unknown war and not many people understand its origins. Please remember WP:AGF. Also remember that I may not have enough free time to respond quickly.--UA Victory (talk) 07:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: While I'm not going to participate much in this reassessment, I completely dismiss any claims or accusations of having willingly overlooked POV statements in this article during both of my GA-reviews. I actually received quite a few compliments on my reviews. It's possible, however, that some POV edits were made after my last review (which was back in July by the way). My topic-ban, also, have nothing to do with this. And I agree with UA Victory that you should assume good faith in this case: not all of my 20,400 edits on Wikipedia have been part of a conspiracy to destroy the world. Keep that in mind. On another note, Merry Christmas. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 13:36, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I always thought that Wikipedia administrators were supposed to be neutral, but, oh boy, was I wrong! After reading all about this drama, the choice of language by F.P.a.S. such as – warfare against Russia – caught my eye. The comment reveals that this particular administrator is not neutral, since he believes Putin’s line that it was Georgia that unleashed an unprovoked war on peaceful South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers at the instigation of NATO, forcing Putin to heroically defend his country and his citizens. Hint: Russia waged a war on Georgia, not Georgia against Russia!

F.P.a.S. objects to anti-Russian POV with a straight face as if Russia didn't do nuffin wrong. It's just laughable! His talk page comment [6] on the wording regarding the activities of the two main parties in the lead and his objection to the portrayal of Russia’s aggressive intent also reek of shrewd tendentiousness as though it was not Russia that armed South Ossetian insurgency to the teeth. South Ossetian insurgency then escalated fight against Georgia instead of reaching a negotiated settlement agreement with Georgia’s central government. Russia’s leadership had all their accusations of genocide ready for when the Georgian government retaliated after Ossetian attack. Georgian troops had never crossed the international border between Georgia and Russia. It was the latter that launched a full-scale invasion of the former. It’s unconceivable that a Wikipedia administrator lashed out like a raving lunatic in vitriolic defense of the so-called Russian peacekeepers who robbed civilians and banks in Georgia [7].

Someone has claimed on the talk page that article was biased against Georgia in the past. One is inevitably left wondering what F.P.a.S. did back then to eliminate anti-Georgian and anti-American POV. He only picks up on when the trolls from Olgino, Russian nationalists and conspiracy theorists throw bitch fits since current article indeed exposes the narrative of Russia’s advocates [8] as outright lies [9].

Check out his pals on the talk page. F.P.a.S. is enabling incredibly dishonest and biased editors to get their own way! This guy calls himself Perfect, however his incompetence, sheer bias and actions cast serious doubts on his perfection. I strongly recommend that F.P.a.S. be checked for neutrality. The existence of such impartial administrators might be an indication of Wikipedia’s anti-American bias! DeeplyConcernedDeer (talk) 16:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The lead gave an unbiased and factual account of events a while ago such as Georgian civilians being defended from Ossetian shelling and Georgia being invaded on made up pretext. I concur that administrators who are actively lobbying Russian interests should be held personally responsible and stripped of their duties.--188.109.4.146 (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a thinly veiled attempt at furthering pro-Russian POV is appalling.

First, I'd like to thank UA victory for a huge amount of work he did and all the sources he added to the article. Nevertheless, I believe that the nomination is warranted since there are few issues with the article. This is one of my areas of interest on Wikipedia, so I'm not claiming to be a neutral third party, my goal is to provide context for others to examine, given that many issues are indeed subtle. Below are a few problematic passages from the intro and the beginning of the article.

Intro, paragraph 2. Different words are chosen to describe Georgia's separation from USSR and contemporary South Ossetia's separation from Georgia: "declared independence" vs "left under internationally unrecognised separatist de facto control".
History. "The separatists were aided by former Soviet military units now under Russian command" - no source provided (and the situation was much more nuanced actually)
History. "Abkhaz minority seceded from Georgia during the early 1990s." - the words "minority seceded" sound awkward but it's also not correct - it wasn't only ethnic Abkhaz who seceded. And I'm not sure it's relevant to this article at all.
Russian interests and involvement. "Eduard Kokoity, an alleged member of organised crime" - no source given for that (I checked pp 233-235 of Van Herpen's book). But it's not only a question of supporting claims with reference - I myself know about these allegatiosn - but also about using information selectively. For example, the criminal background of Georgian fighters in the first war is never mentioned in this article (see 1991–92_South_Ossetia_War#Combatants for references). Alæxis_¿question? 21:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: There is nothing wrong with this article, as it provides a factual, well-referenced overview of all relevant items. Now, whether those facts are to the liking of select users is irrelevant. It's clear that Alaexis attempted, time and again, to introduce signature Russian biases and cherry-picked items into the text just to make a point. The neutrality tag, which has been placed there single-handedly last year, has not produced any compelling reasons to be there as long as it has remained. In fact, in this instance I think the tagging is just an attempt to hold the article Hostage and is a bad faith attempt to use it as a Badge of shame - having failed to taint the content in terms of substance, select users now attempt to taint it in appearance if nothing else.--Damianmx (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Agree with Damiamx. The article's only flaw is the "Neutrality" tag, which seems to only be placed there for... well, no reason at all. The so-called bias attempts have only been brought in single-handedly by one user who shall not be named, which questions why the "Neutrality" tag is still even there, as of today. Not only do I vote to keep the article listed, but I also vote to remove the "Neutrality" tag as there is no good concern for its existence. Carbrera (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you go ahead and remove a tag yourself? The tag has been placed there by Future Perfect at Sunrise who is hands down the most controversial admin on enwiki. The nominator has been stalking Balkan-related subjects for years and their persistent POV pushing in this topic area has been very tiresome. It should not come as complete surprise that a WP:COI has been already suggested as possible motive behind the nominator’s attempt to whitewash the image of Russia.

This futile reassessment seems to be a personal attack on a well-meaning editor who had commendable courage to vastly improve the quality of an article which in its pre-2014 state was an exemplary POV. Comments and actions of the nominator smell suspiciously like WP:TOOLMISUSE.

It's bothersome that Alaexis has so far managed to get away with making false statements. Contrary to their claims, the sources actually support the material.213.66.162.203 (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I've listed 4 specific problems with the article, and in response I've only seen personal attacks against Fut Perfect and myself. It would be nice to hear something of substance. Alæxis_¿question? 07:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The users who question the neutrality of the article are known for their pro-Russian POV (no offend, that's just their POV). @Alaexis:, we know each other for quite a while. Be honest, don't you think your list of "specific problems" is nothing but mere nitpicking?

1. Georgia's separation from the USSR and SO's secession from Georgia cannot be compared to each other. Despite the fact that Georgia was forcibly sovietized, its separation from the Soviet Union was the right envisaged by the Soviet constitution. South Ossetia was a Soviet-era creation with no constitutionally guaranteed right to secede. Furthermore, Georgia declared independence on the basis of a nationwide referendum which was internationally observed and monitored, while SO's wannabe referendum in 1992 asked question on independence retrospectively, with the exclusion of its Georgian population; the fighting was ongoing and there were no observers and monitors.

2. "The separatists were aided by former Soviet military units now under Russian command". Nuanced or not, the separatists were aided by the Russian troops. You cannot deny this. When the South Ossetian militia was about to collapse, a telephone call from Russian vice-president Rutskoy to Tbilisi threatened to level the Georgian capital to the ground if the pressure on Tskhinvali was not relieved.

3. Yes, it was exactly the Abkhaz minority who initiated the secession movement; there is nothing "awkward" about the statement. Georgians, the single largest ethnic group in the region, were, naturally, Georgian loyalists, while other ethnic minorities were either indifferent or vacillated in the course of the conflict.

4. Alleged "criminal background of Georgian fighters" is not relevant here. Kokoity was not supposed to be a fighter, but he claimed to have been a democratically elected national leader. And allegations of his being part of the mafia came primarily not from Tbilisi, but from his estranged insiders and the common people in Tskhinvali. --Kober^Talk 15:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll initiate a separate discussion at the talk about the first issue. And regarding the 2 and 4, the problem was not only POV but also lack of sources - after all it's supposed to be a good article. Alæxis_¿question? 17:50, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]