Talk:Monarchy of Canada

Peter Boyce's observation

Though I agree with Boyce, I'm neutral on whether we should or shouldn't mention his observations about the Perth Agreement, in this article. I do however recommend, that ya'll discuss inclusion/exclusion here, rather then have a slow-edit war. GoodDay (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

The reason for excluding Boyce (he is an Australian constitutional scholar) does not make sense. This article is skewed toward a viewpoint that the Queen of Canada is as separate from the Queen of the UK as the King of Great Britain was once separate from the Elector of Hanover. Note that the comment in the article that the Statute of Westminster 1931 disallowed the UK from legislating in relation to succession in Canada is false. Whoever is sovereign in the UK is sovereign in Canada. Whether or not we quote Boyce, we need to reflect current mainstream opinion. TFD (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I think first of all it is relevant to the Canadian monarchy as the Canadian monarchy is one of the monarchies he is explicitly talking about (his book's title is The Queen's Other Realms: The Crown and Its Legacy in Australia, Canada and New Zealand and it is already cited in this article several times so clearly it has been accepted that his observations apply to the Monarchy of Canada. Secondly, the relevance of this quotation to Canada has been recognized by Canadian scholars who use the quote in the article "If the Queen Has No Reserve Powers Left, What Is the Modern Monarchy For?" published in the Canadian academic journal Review of Constitutional Studies/Revue d'études constitutionelles the article can be found here. Thirdly, I think inclusion of the quote is needed for balance/NPOV reasons as it differs from the arguments that predominate in the article that claim the Canadian monarchy is equal to the British monarchy rather than subordinate. It has been removed because it is claimed it is "not relevant" to the page. I've provided supporting evidence that it is. As for TFD's the claim that he should be excluded because he is an Australian scholar, that is irrelevant and that has been shown by the fact that he is already widely quoted in this article and by the fact that Canadian scholars quote him. Indeed, there are a number of non-Canadian scholars quoted here, it's never been a problem before (not even, as I've mentioned, in the case of Boyce himself). Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 00:26, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't belong here because it's an opinion about the project to change the succession rules and the realms in general, not just about Canada, specifically. Hence, the opinion has been moved to Perth Agreement. There may be a place for it at Commonwealth realm; I'm not sure. It is also a fringe opinion. It therefore shouldn't be given undue weight. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 00:46, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I hope ya'll can work it out, among yourselves :) GoodDay (talk) 00:36, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not my claim he should be excluded because he is Australian, that was another editor.[1] Boyce opinion is not fringe, but mainstream opinion confirmed by the Canadian government and the courts. I see no reason either to exclude the comments because they apply to other countries as well. TFD (talk) 01:00, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

My apologies TFD for misreading your comment. In response to Miesianiacal, Boyce is not a fringe scholar but a respected expert. His view may be a minority view but it is not"fringe". For the sake of balance and NPOV minority views should be included. Their mere inclusion does not constitute "undue Wright". I'm not suggesting paragraphs on the subject but a simple quote - that is not undue weight at all. You're suggesting giving Boyce no weight at all which is not what "no undue weight" means. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

"Fringe", "minority", there's no difference, especially when it comes to WP:UNDUE.

Boyce's opinion being included at Perth Agreement puts to bed any claim his interpretation has been given no weight. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:36, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

His comment, that the Canadian crown is "derivative, if not subordinate" is the current opinion of the Canadian government and courts. If you remember, some people thought that succession in Canada was determined by the Succession Act, which as imperial law had been received into Canadian law and had to be amended, either by federal statute or constitutional amendment. But that turned out to be incorrect, since Canada's sovereign is whoever is king or queen of the UK, hence the Canadian crown is "derivative, if not subordinate." TFD (talk) 04:02, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If you have an actual government souce stating so, feel free to present it. It would be interesting to place it next to all the government sources, including court rulings, that say the opposite. And, please, no personal interpretations. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 05:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't seem to find in Boyce's book any claim by him that the non-UK crowns are subordinate to the British one. It's also curious how he could've written in 2008 about the changes in succession law that were initiated in 2011. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

It's on page 23 and he's not talking about the Perth Agreement specifically but generally to the fact that the initiative for change remains, to this day, with the British government. It is the Canadian scholars Hazell and Morris who refer to Perth on page 18 of their journal article ie that Boyce's view was borne out by the fact that the Perth Agreement was the result of an initiative by the British government of David Cameron. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 15:58, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh; I see it now. Thank you. It's hardly a fact the initiative for change is solely within the purview of the UK; no document or convention says so; a coincidence doesn't prove anything. However, Boyce's words are his words. I'd still, though, caution against giving them too much weight vis-a-vis all those that've said the opposite since the 1920s. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 16:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

It is a fact that only the British government has initiated a change in the succession rules. Despite the fact that Catholicism is the largest denomination in Canada and that the ban on Catholics has been the subject of a lawsuit and is inconsistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights no Canadian government has attempted to initiate a change to the monarchy that would remove the Catholic ban, nor has Australia despite its large Catholic population. Nor has any other Commonwealth country attempt to initiate a change away from make primogeniture before Cameron, despite the fact that gender equality has bee an important principle in many countries for several decades. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 16:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

What can we do to bring more people into this discussion? Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Open up an Rfc. GoodDay (talk) 02:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

RFC on inclusion of Peter Boyce quotation

Should the following quote be included in the article see diff:

According to constitutional scholar Peter Boyce in The Queen's Other Realms: The Crown and Its Legacy in Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the fact that the change in the succession was initiated by the United Kingdom government is a reminder to the Commonwealth realms that "their crown is derivative, if not subordinate” to the crown of the United Kingdom.(source 1)source 2 (page 18).

See section above this one for more details. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• As the mover I am obviously in support. My arguments in favour have been extensively made in an earlier part of this Talk page. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Firstly, it's a remark about all the non-British Commonwealth realms, not just Canada. Hence, it's already included at Perth Agreement and Commonwealth realm. If it were included here, it'd have to be added to all 14 other articles on the Commonwealth realms that aren't the UK. Secondly, it's a minority view; since the late 1920s, the majority opinion has been that the realms are all independent of one another and equal in status (see the Balfour Declaration of 1926, Statute of Westminster 1931, and dozens of sources used in this article, at Commonwealth realm, and other articles). Highlighting Boyce's opinion gives it undue weight; especially so if it's put into 16 articles. It's place in the aforementioned two is (more than) enough. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Response Mere inclusion is not undue weight. A section or paragraph or extensive discussion of this issue within the article is not being proposed, simply a sentence or two. Also note that besides the fact that the book in which the quote appears even has Canada in the title (The Queen's Other Realms: The Crown and Its Legacy in Australia, Canada and New Zealand), this exact quotation from Boyce was used in the Canadian constitutional law journal Review of Constitutional Studies on page 18 of this article by Hazell and Morris so Canadian constitutional scholars have found it relevant to Canada. Lastly, as I argued in the discussion earlier on this page, this article is overwhelmingly reflective of the opposite view so, if anything, undue weight is being given to the so-called majority view, including this Boyce quote is thus important in the interests of balance and ensuring all reasonable views are represented. WP:UNDUE does not call for "minority views" to be entirely excluded, as Miesianiacal's citation of it implies, but just that they are not represented disproportionately and mere inclusion of this quote is not disproportionate given the overrepresentation of the "majority view" in this article. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 11:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say inclusion gave the opinion undue weight. I said giving a view that's supported only by one person equal footing with the opposite view that's been supported by many people over many decades is giving that fringe view undue weight. Adding that fringe view to all 15 articles on Commonwealth realm monarchies other than the UK's, which would have to be done for the sake of fairness and consistency if it were to be inserted here, gives it far more coverage than it deserves.

Once again (and I'm not sure why I need to repeat this), Boyce's opinion is included at Commonwealth realm and Perth Agreement, which puts to rest any claim his theory has been excluded. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 01:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Additional remark Further to my argument above, I'll add that Boyce's opinion on the subservience of the non-British crowns is based on one aspect of the 1936 abdication. Putting aside how other aspects of that event actually negate Boyce's conclusion (as noted by authors quoted elsewhere on this page by Hungarian Phrasebook), the application of his opinion to the changes in royal succession in 2015 is original research. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 14:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Response One reason it's not original research because it's cited by Hazell and Morris in a paragraph in which they discuss Perth. "Once again (and I'm not sure why I need to repeat this), Boyce's opinion is included at Commonwealth realm and Perth Agreement," We're discussing this article and your attempt to exclude Boyce from it. And if anything, the fact that you are not challenging the inclusion of the quote there (I believe you actually added it to Perth Agreement yourself (diff)) is a concession that you don't really think it's a fringe argument or irrelevant to the monarchy. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

That response is two straw man arguments. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 04:07, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

• Include It is the majority view confirmed by Canadian ministers and the courts. It is irrelevant that the same comment applies to other realms, since the Queen's role is similar in all her realms and therefore there would be overlap between all these articles. TFD (talk) 04:23, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Source for the Cabinet and courts stating the Canadian Crown is subordinate to the British Crown, please. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 01:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose First, according to the Succession to the Throne article the change was initiated at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting held in Perth in 2011. The fact that it was discussed prior within the UK (as it has off and on again been discussed there and in other countries) does not mean the change was initiated there, although perhaps the private member's motion provided an open to place the subject on the Heads of Government Meeting agenda. Second, this quote and reference applies to all of the realms equally, and we already have articles for that. It makes little sense to put in a minor details into 16+ separate articles when just one will do. Third, in reference to weight, it is giving undue weight even if it is just once phrase if we put it into 17 different articles. And fourth, "derivative" is a nebulous term so it is difficult to even understand what exactly the author means by this, although within its context its connotation seems to be that "their crowns" are somehow beholden to the British Crown. If this is the case, it is in clear contradiction to the law which has been clearly articulated in numerous court rulings. However, if the author simply means that these crowns were "derived" in the sense of "created from" then he would be correct, although that interpretation is not supported based on the context in which it is placed in my mind. trackratte (talk) 14:01, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Response According to all reports the change was initiated and proposed by the British Prime Minister, David Cameron. For instance see "David Cameron proposes changes to royal succession" (BBC News), "Cameron consults Commonwealth on royal succession reforms: Prime minister proposes males should no longer take precedence as heir to the crown, starting with next generation" (The Guardian) - this despite the fact that the chair of the meeting was the Australian PM, Julia Gillard. Note that even an Australian report says "PRIME Minister Julia Gillard has backed the British government's move to change the rule of succession to have the oldest child ascend to the throne, irrespective of gender." So I'm afraid your claim that it wasn't initiated by the British isn't supported by the evidence. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 14:33, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

"David Cameron has written to Commonwealth leaders proposing that the law be changed". Once again, the proposal was put forth in the UK by a private member, the PM put forth the proposal to the CHGM, and this proposal was initiated/agreed upon/gained traction at the CHGM meeting. I suppose it depends on what your understaning of the differnce between "proposed" and "initiated" is. Either way it is of no material difference to the reasoning. trackratte (talk) 18:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I think we should assume the source uses it with its ordinary meaning not some esoteric one. TFD (talk) 05:11, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Not esoteric, both definitions are within the dictionary: "imitative of the work of another person, and usually disapproved of for that reason", and "something that is based on another source". One has derogatory connotations, and one does not. However, given the context of the clause within its sentence, it appears that the author is using the former, ie the Canadian Crown, for example, is not a separate creation which evolved out of the British Crown (latter definition), but is instead imitative and thus the Succession case serves as a "reminder" that the Canadian institution is in fact led from and driven by the UK (which is a legal and constitutional fallacy). Thus, the author is wrong using the former definition, and right using the latter, however context leads me to believe he is using the former. Not entirely material however, as my major arguments are points two and three above, with points one and four being supporting or ancillary, and with discussion raised by yourself and Hungarian focusing on these ancillary points. Of course I am happy to discuss them, I find them interesting, but they will not directly lead to any resolution. trackratte (talk) 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support, Boyce's quote acknowledges a specific perspective in a manner and source that justifies its expression in and balances this article (assertions about what will or ought be done to other articles is irrelevant to decision about the specific pending proposal for inclusion in this one, which alone is under consideration in this discussion). FactStraight (talk) 03:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Boyce's quote acknowledges his own specific perspective. As such, giving Boyce's perspective the same coverage as that which has been held by the majority for the last 60+ years is a violation of WP:UNDUE. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 14:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Boyce is a significant constitutional scholar, so much so that he is already cited several times in this article and others and you, yourself, added the quote to Perth Agreement (see diff) so it's clearly not a "fringe view" but simply a minority view and therefore, does merit inclusion. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

It's actually the opinion that the Canadian govt and courts have accepted. See recent court case.[2] TFD (talk) 21:29, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm unable to find in that source where the Canadian government says the Canadian Crown is subordinate to the British one. Could you point out or quote the words, please? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 04:09, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

They don't use the exact wording but say that whoever is sovereign of the UK is sovereign of Canada. TFD (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Which you have merely interpreted as meaning the Canadian Crown is subordinate to the British one. That is, of course, ignoring the parts of the same ruling that say Canada is sovereign and free to not assent to any amendments to royal succession in Britain.

(And it's the ruling of a provincial court, not the Canadian government.) --₪ MIESIANIACAL 04:44, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

It is a ruling by a federally appointed judge in superior court in favor of the government's official position. Canada of course is free to become a republic or choose its own monarch, subject of course to royal approval of course, but until it does whoever is sovereign of the UK is the sovereign of Canada. TFD (talk) 05:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Which you have merely interpreted as meaning the Canadian Crown is subordinate to the British one. Being subordinate means following orders. The Quebec court recognizing Canada's freedom to choose to assent or not to changes to royal succession in the UK negates any claim the court agrees the Canadian Crown is subordinate to the British one. (If anything, the argument's logical conclusion is, until the UK amends or repeals its Statute of Westminster, the UK is dependent upon Canada's assent to amend its own succession laws. But, that's neither here nor there in this discussion.) --₪ MIESIANIACAL 05:18, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Being subordinate can also mean derivative, which is the other term used. And you do not seem to be reading the judgment correctly. Whether or not Canada assents, whoever is sovereign of the UK is sovereign of Canada. TFD (talk) 05:36, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

The Quebec Court ruling states that " It was therefore as of 1931 that Canada and the United Kingdom had separate crowns, that is, separate heads of state, even if embodied by the same natural person", while also recognizing that Canada's succession law is simply the "rule of symmetry". You are confusing the mechanism of selection with the concept of subordination (defined: "lower in rank or position", or "a person under the authority or control of another"). Clearly the Court ruled that the two positions are separate heads of state, and one is no more subordinate over the other than the Prime Minister of Canada is to the President of Brazil.

The rule of symmetry is simply a mechanism of selection. For example, the Chief Justice of Canada is also Deputy to the Governor General and the Administrator of Canada, that does not mean that the office of Administrator or Deputy is subordinate to the Chief Justice. It simply means that whomever occupies one office may simultaneously and automatically be appointed to other offices as well. trackratte (talk) 18:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC) trackratte (talk) 18:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

The Administrator of Canada is a superior rank to Chief Justice.[3] Anyway you mixed up the law. The Chief Justice is not automatically a deputy GG and only becomes Administrator if the GG is incapacitated. And the "rule of symmetry" was the intention UK and dominion governments, not a law. TFD (talk) 20:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

1. Exactly my point. 2. The person filling the office of Chief Justice is automatically the administrator as well as a deputy ("The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is, ex officio, the Deputy Governor General of Canada"). The point that was made, in line with 1., is that someone occupying an office by virtue of their appointment to another office in no way means one is subordinate to the other. This often happens in the business world as well with outside directors, where a position in one company means a position in another. The logic chain underpinning Canada being "subordinate" to the UK is deeply flawed, and is also unhinged from political and legal realities. 3. The "rule of symmetry" has been deemed by the court to be Canada's current and only succession law. trackratte (talk) 03:51, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

As I just said The Chief Justice is not automatically administrator or deputy, or ex officio anything. Canada is not subordinate to the UK, but the Crown of Canada is subordinate to the Crown of the UK. Symmetry was the intent, not the rule, the rule is that whoever is Queen of the UK is also Queen of "her other realms and territories." TFD (talk) 04:08, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

1. The appointment for the deputy, and that of outside directors on corporate boards, was simply to illustrate a point. However, the quoted reference contradicting your opinion is plain as day. 2. The Crown is the legal embodiment of the state, so your statement that Canada is not subordinate to the UK but Canada is subordinate to the UK is a self-contradictory mess of an attempt at a logical argument. 3. The court stated that "Just as the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867 incorporates into the Canadian Constitution the principle of parliamentary privilege and not the legislative source of that privilege, so the rule of recognition identifying the Crown in Canada as the person who occupies the throne in the United Kingdom is also incorporated into the Constitution, without the British law governing succession to the throne being incorporated". Which is to say the "rule of symmetry" is, according to the Court, law. trackratte (talk) 04:33, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

IOW the crown in Canada is derivative of the British crown: whoever is sovereign of the UK is sovereign of Canada. And you just quoted the court as saying that the rule that the Queen of the UK is part of the Constitution, so it is the law. Symmetry is the intention of the law. Note that the recognition of the Queen as Canada's head of state is a relic of colonialism which is why the Constitution makes the position subordinate. TFD (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

"whoever", i.e. the person is shared, not the office. Just because John Smith is the mayor of a town and also a little league coach does not make the office of mayor subordinate to the office of little league coach. The constitution does not make the office subordinate. Thus, the Court stating "[67] It was therefore as of 1931 that Canada and the United Kingdom had separate crowns, that is, separate heads of state, even if embodied by the same natural person." The office of Sovereign of Canada is no more connected with the office of Sovereign of the UK than it is to the office of the President of the United States. Which, as you notice, the Court also ruled changes to the rules governing succession in the UK have no effect on the office of the Queen of Canada, as they are completely separate, with the only law of succession in Canada being that of symmettry, i.e. recognizing the natural person holding a certain office as the holder of another, separate, office. trackratte (talk) 17:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

This academic debate is somewhat interesting, but, your personal interpretations are ultimately not relevant to the issue at hand. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:45, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

This debate is irrelevant. We're not trying to determine whether or not Boyce is correct but whether his comments should be included. Disagreeing with his statement should not be a motivation for opposing its inclusion. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

You must be remarking on a different debate. Nothing in the above seeks to determine whether or not Boyce is correct. The discussion quite clearly aimed to determine if Boyce's opinion is a lonely one or not. Evidently it is. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 06:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support/Include, per arguments already advanced above. BushelCandle (talk) 13:47, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
• Conditional inclusion - If it's also added to the 14 other non-UK commonwealth monarchy articles. GoodDay (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - Anything that starts off with "according to scholar X..." is just a non-starter. Wikipedia isn't and should not be a collection of opinion from random scholars. We state facts. Not narrative. Not opinions. NickCT (talk) 12:57, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: The information is probably correct and properly sourced, but I don't see how its inclusion makes the article better. A reader endowed with normal intelligence will easily gather from the already existing content of this article the derivative nature of Canada's monarchy without this being explicitly rubbed in his nose. --Dailycare (talk) 18:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

At present the article actually emphasizes the opposite point. The Boyce quote provides balabce. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's the number of people, from the 1930s to the present day, who back the opposite point that provides the "emphasis". --₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:50, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

• Conditional Support It makes a valid debatable point from a noted expert, but I'm not sure it stands on its own merit. Concurring viewpoints from other experts would give it more weight. Mediatech492 (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

If Boyce's observations are added to this article? then I'd recommend it be added to the monarchy articles of the other non-UK commonwealth realm monarchy articles. GoodDay (talk) 16:00, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

It would help clarify whether or not we have consensus if you can indicate in the above section if you support or oppose inclusion. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:30, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Reaching consensus on this article, is generally quite difficult. Particularly when it involves the British monarchy. GoodDay (talk) 02:40, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

There was a theory that the Canadian Crown was created in 1931 within its own laws of succession. Adherents argued that if the UK changed the succession rules the changes would have no effect in Canada where succession would be governed by the original succession laws. In theory therefore Canada could at some point have the different person on the throne from the UK. However, the prevailing opinion today is that Canada's constitution provides for the British sovereign to be sovereign of Canada, and it is a courtesy that Canada provides its assent to any changes in succession. Therefore, as Boyce says, the crown of Canada is subordinate to the crown of the UK. While this article should explain the various views, currently it presents an obsolete theory as fact. TFD (talk) 22:17, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

It appears to be not so simple. From the last ruling in Quebec: "As such, the rule of automatic recognition means that the Queen or King of the United Kingdom is also the Queen or King of Canada, with no need to amend Canadian law for it to be so. If Canadian Parliament disagrees with the amendments to the rules governing the succession to the throne proposed by the United Kingdom, it may refuse to give its assent." If the Canadian parliament's assent is required per the Statute of Westminster--a constitutional document in both Canada and the UK--for an amendment to the laws of succession to take place in the UK, what happens if the Canadian parliament doesn't assent? Can the UK not change its laws of succession? If the UK goes ahead and changes its laws, does the change have no effect in Canada? If whomever is sovereign of the UK automatically becomes sovereign of Canada, regardless of the Canadian parliament's assent or lack thereof, why is the assent requirement in the Statute of Westminster at all, why did the Canadian parliament give its assent to the succession bill in the UK parliament in 2015, and why do the courts in Canada raise its importance in every ruling on the subject of succession? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:41, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

The courts mention the Statute of Westminster because the plaintiffs use it as a basis for their claims. Then the courts explain that preambles have no legislative effect and section 4 was repealed. The government position is, according to Anne Twomey, "that succession to the Canadian Crown is, and always has been, determined by the rules of succession to the British throne." The rules of succession, such as the 1701 Act, are not "part of Canadian law and there was therefore nothing to amend."[4] I don't know why the judge said (at 109) that Parliament could refuse consent. That's obiter dictum, since Parliament did not refuse consent and probably is a reference to the decision in O'Donogue v Canada, which is what the judge was discussing in the paragraph. In O'Donohue, Rouleau J. accepted that the Succession Act was part of Canadian law and said that Canada's consent was probably required to change the succession, which was what expert opinion then was. TFD (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The judge didn't simply mention it at 109. He mentions it again in the conclusion on the aspect: "under the preamble of this statute [of Westminster], it [the UK] must by constitutional convention obtain the assent of the other member countries of the Commonwealth" (which leads to the question of whether, in this line of thinking, it's the UK that's dependent on the other realms and not, as Boyce thinks, the other way around). And "it falls to each of these countries to give its assent or not to an amendment of the rules of succession to the throne, under its own procedure". And "The Statute of Westminster is still part of the Canadian Constitution as patriated in 1982, and its preamble provides for Canada's assent in the event of an amendment to the rules of royal succession." So, what would happen if the Canadian parliament did not assent?

It's also intriguing how the judge is silent on the fact that the government's request and consent given on 10 December 1936 to the Abdication Act had the effect, per S.4 of the SoW, of bringing the Abdication Act into the laws of Canada. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 07:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Constitutional conventions are not binding. See the note on Parliament's website.[5] Just because the UK consulted with Canada does not mean the law otherwise would have been void. IIRC, sec. 4 of the Statute of Westminster was never considered to apply to the abdication and cabinet could have provided consent. There was no reason though for the judge to comment on it. TFD (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The courts all seem to disagree with you. The position of prime minister is a constitutional convention. So, too, is responsible government. The sovereign's right to prorogue parliament is a constitutional convention, which the Supreme Court outlined required a constitutional amendment to change. We can't, based upon our personal preferences, pick and choose which constitutional conventions are binding and which are merely decoration.

However, there is no sovereign above Britain's. So, if the UK did not get the Canadian parliament's assent to alterations in the British succession laws, what's to stop them from proceeding, anyway? At the same time, there's no sovereign above Canada's and, if the constitutional convention set in the preamble to a Canadian constitutional document requires the Canadian parliament's assent to a change in the British succession laws, and that assent is not given but the British parliament proceeds, anyway, it seems pretty clear the change in British law would be considered unconstitutional according to Canadian law (and possibly British law, as well) and therefore of no effect. If you hold the opposite view--that the Canadian parliament's assent, and therefore its opposition, is always irrelevant in the context of succession--you're arguing what everyone thinks happened in 1931 didn't happen and Canada is not a fully sovereign nation. That's an audacious claim. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 16:52, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

While we cannot choose which constitutional conventions are binding, governments can, since the courts have no jurisdiction for enforcing them. The sovereign's right to prorogue parliament btw is not a constitutional convention. What is a constitutional convention is under which circumstances that power is exercised. But when the Governor General prorogued Parliament several years ago, it did not matter whether or not she was breaking constitutional convention, because whatever she did would have the force of law and could not be stopped through a writ of mandamus. Similarly when Kerr sacked Whitlam, there was no judicial remedy. So in this case, the UK should obtain Canada's permission to change succession, but if they did not, the change still would have had effect. TFD (talk) 23:19, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The office of prime minister cannot simply be done away with without consequence because it is only conventional to have one. The Crown's power to prorogue or dissolve parliament is conventional; it is not spelled out in any constitutional document, yet is part of the constitutional order. The Federal Court ruled that the Crown's prerogative to dissolve parliament cannot be tampered with by mere statute; it requires a constitutional amendment. There is nothing, therefore, to say the convention requiring the Canadian parliament's assent to changes to succession laws in the UK is decorative. Everything says it has the same force as any other constitutional convention. The Quebec Superior Court said as much: "under the preamble of this statute [of Westminster], it [the UK] must by constitutional convention [all emphasis mine] obtain the assent of the other member countries of the Commonwealth".

The preamble to the Statute of Westminster in Canada is the same as the preamble to the Statute of Westminster in the UK. If the Canadian parliament refused assent to a change is succession laws in the UK and the British parliament went ahead and made the change, anyway, that change would be, according to a Canadian court, unconstitutional. As such, one cannot say whomever is monarch of the UK is automatically monarch of Canada; not outside of normal, hereditary succession, anyway (and assuming, for the sake of argument, the preamble to the Constitution Act 1867 has any determination of succession). If it's a case of someone acceding because of legal changes, whomever becomes sovereign of the UK only becomes sovereign of Canada with the assent of the parliament of Canada, which, as the Quebec Superior Court said, is not automatic ("it falls to each of these countries to give its assent or not [emphasis mine] to an amendment of the rules of succession to the throne"; "If Canadian Parliament disagrees with the amendments to the rules governing the succession to the throne proposed by the United Kingdom, it may refuse [emphasis mine] to give its assent."). --₪ MIESIANIACAL 06:44, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

"The preamble to the Statute of Westminster in Canada is the same as the preamble to the Statute of Westminster in the UK". The difference is that in the UK the Statute of Westminster is a simple statute that can be amended or modified by a subsequent statute. It doesn't enjoy supremacy (ie it's not entrenched) the way it evidently is in Canada. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 11:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I can quote no better source than the Canadian Parliament: "conventions are not laws....It is generally accepted that the penalty for breaching a constitutional convention is political, not legal."[6] The Crown's power to prorogue parliament is not a convention, it is a law, and the power is delegated to the governor general through letters patent.[7] There is a clear difference between a law and a convention. If the government acts in violation of a convention, then the action is still legal and there is no recourse to the courts. Preambles to legislation have no legislative effect, they merely provide an explanation and history of the legislation. In other words, the constitutional convention is that the UK ask Canada to agree to a change in succession but if they do not the UK law determines the next monarch anyway and he or she becomes sovereign of Canada because whoever is sovereign of the UK is sovereign in Canada. If you want to believe that the Canadian constitutional scholars of the 1930s got it right and the courts are wrong, then fine. TFD (talk) 07:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, titles that are inherited with other titles (such as viscount inherited with the title earl) are often referred to as "derivative titles." The order of titles is reflected in her title in Canada "of the United Kingdom, Canada [etc.], Queen." TFD (talk) 21:24, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, when the premier of Newfoundland resigned in 1933, he was not replaced by another premier. And the position of Chief Minister of the Turks and Caicos Islands was vacant from 2009-2013. TFD (talk) 03:10, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Your parliamentary source is already faulty when it states the 1947 Letters Patent "delegated" the Crown's powers to the governor general. The phrasing of the Letters Patent contradicts that claim. Regardless, cite the written law that states the governor general or monarch is to prorogue parliament.

I note you ignore the office of prime minister, cabinet, responsible government, and other constitutional conventions.

If a preamble has no legislative effect, then you've undermined the previous government's and the Quebec court's assertions it's the preamble to the Constitution Act 1867 that requires whomever is monarch of the UK to automatically be monarch of Canada. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Previous judgments do not say that the preamble to the 1931 has legislative effect, but recognize that "they merely provide an explanation and history of the legislation" as I said above. And as you should be aware, not all laws are written. As the parliamentary site explains, the fact that the Crown could call or dismiss parliament was interpreted as meaning that the Crown could also prorogue Parliament. If that conclusion is wrong then next time the governor general prorogues parliament you can apply to the courts for a prorogative writ to stop him or her. However if the governor general exercises this power against constitutional convention you cannot do that because constitutional conventions are not law. Anyway, let's not get distracted by tangential issues? Do you agree that constitutional conventions and preambles to legislation are not law and therefore cannot determine succession although they can explain how changes to the succession should be made? TFD (talk) 05:35, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Right, so you're admitting the power to prorogue parliament is a conventional one—i.e. not written into law—like the power to appoint a cabinet or parliament's power to grant or rescind confidence to the cabinet. Those can't be found even in preambles.

Since the previous government and the Quebec court claim it is the preamble to the Constitution Act 1867 that requires Canada's monarch to always be the person who is monarch of the UK, your own assertion that "preambles to legislation have no legislative effect" opposes the Conservative government's opinion you've otherwise claimed to support. If the preamble has no legislative effect, the twisted interpretation that says the preamble decides how Canada's monarchs are selected is rendered pointless; we'd have to look elsewhere for what does have legislative effect and sets out royal succession in Canada. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:48, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

There is a difference. Legal opinion is that the wording of the 1867 act allows the governor general to prorogue parliament. The interpretation of statutes is not the same thing as constitutional convention. The consequences of breaking a constitutional convention and breaking a law are different too. The consequences of the first are poltical, the consequences of the second are legal. If you break the law, you can go to gaol and the courts can reverse your actions. Anyway, you have provided no sources to support your opinion. As for preambles, we accept what sources say about them. In interpreting legislation, it is useful to understand the intent. For example, in Law, Politics and the Judicial Process, it quoteds the Chief Justice as saying the preamble "is not a source of positive law."[8] So it does not make the Queen the same person in the UK and Canada, but says that Parliament expects they should be the same. That helps us understand what the term "Queen" means in other part of the act. TFD (talk) 21:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the argument advanced by TFD and perhaps others depicting the Canadian Crown as "subordinate" to the British Crown is contradicted by the very reference used by Hungarian above which started off this RfD at the outset of this discussion: "The Succession to the Crown Act 2013 required the agreement of all the realms before it could be brought into force in the UK. This was because altering the rules of royal succession to make them gender neutral meant that all the monarchies had to agree lest different rules in different realms resulted in different people as monarchs. The realms were free to alter their constitutions without reference to the UK, but the UK could not do so on this occasion without seeking the realms’ consent; the realms were relatively freer to alter their constitutions than was the UK itself. This inversion of former imperial realities took some people by surprise. On the other hand, as Peter Boyce has pointed out, the fact that the initiative for change remains in the hands of the UK also reminds the realms that “their crown is derivative, if not subordinate.”

The source provided by Hungarian above itself contradicts Boyce's view, although acknowledging its existence. Boyce's view regarding 'a reminder of subordination or something near it' is also directly contradicted by British and Canadian law, political reality, and court decisions. As such, the statement itself is quite evidently both unsupported as well as abjectly fringe. Additionally, the statement that "the initiative for change remains in the hands of the UK" is also unsupported, as there is nothing preventing any realm to advance a change to the agenda of the CHOG meeting, and in fact the 2013 changes were initiated at the CHOG meeting itself and discussed by all of the realms where a consensus for changed was ascertained. While the fact that Boyce has an opinion on the matter is verifiable, that does not mean we must include it. If we do wish to include it, the opinion itself is not specifically made to Canada but to the realms, and as such any such inclusion would properly be in the Perth Agreement and/or Commonrealms article(s). trackratte (talk) 04:51, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, not only does Hungarian Phrasebook's own source say the UK is more bound by the other realms than vice-versa, the Quebec court case TFD has been pointing to suggests it, as well. As I said earlier in this thread: "The judge didn't simply mention it at 109. He mentions it again in the conclusion on the aspect: 'under the preamble of this statute [of Westminster], it [the UK] must by constitutional convention obtain the assent of the other member countries of the Commonwealth' (which leads to the question of whether, in this line of thinking, it's the UK that's dependent on the other realms and not, as Boyce thinks, the other way around)." People appear to be reading only what they want to. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 22:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

As you say, it is a "constitutional convention" that the UK consult with other countries before changing the succession. It is constitutional law that whoever the UK selects automatically is king or queen of Canada. The difference between a convention and a law is that courts can enforce laws, they cannot enforce conventions. So a unilateral change of succession by the UK Parliament would be binding on the UK and Canada. Conventions are in fact frequently broken and sometimes changed.

The opinion that a constitutional amendment ratified by the Canadian parliament and ten province was required, turns out to be wrong. Canada has no say in the succession, although of course it could amend its constitution to change its derivative monarchy into a Canadian one. TFD (talk) 23:14, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, what's to say a UK court wouldn't deem unconstitutional an amendment to the British succession laws done without the assent of the other realms' parliaments? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:43, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

UK courts do not have that power due to parliamentary supremacy. They arent like US or Canadian courts.Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 10:19, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

As Andrew Heard writes in "Constitutional Conventions and Parliament", "Generally speaking conventions should be distinguished from other formal rules because they are not directly enforced by either the courts or the Speaker....If there is a direct conflict between a convention and a formal rule, the courts or the Speaker will enforce the formal rule over the convention." The argument that the change would be invalid is based on a view that that there was a constitutional rule requiring the consent of the Dominion parliaments - in fact the preamble to the Statute of Westminster says that. And while the preamble is not binding law, it says changes to succession required consent because any laws affecting the dominions required consent as recognized in the Imperial Conference of 1926. The Canadian government successfully argued that succession laws had no legislative effect, hence there was no constitutional rule requiring consent, merely a convention.

Of course, a UK court could decide it was a constitutional rule. But the UK Parliament is covered because the Canadian Parliament did provide consent.

TFD (talk) 00:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

So, there's nothing to say a court couldn't overturn a succession law amendment made without the assent of the parliaments of the other realms, meaning this "the convention requiring assent of the other realms has no legal force because courts can't enforce conventions" claim isn't as sound as it's being made out to be. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 02:29, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

It could not because of parliamentary sovereignty. Even if there was a law that the UK could not change succession without consent, the new succession act would overturn it. TFD (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, Christie Clark, contrary to constitutional convention, asked the lieutenant governor to dissolve parliament and the lieutenant governor, contrary to constitutional convention, refused her advice. There is no recourse to the courts. TFD (talk) 03:47, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the lg acted according to convention because a) she had lost the confidence of the house so the lg wasnt bound to accept her advice b) it was within 6 months of the last election c) due to the NDP-Green accord there was credible evidence that another party had the confidence of the house. But yes, even if the lg defied convention there'd be no recourse to the courts. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Convention is that the PM will not ask for an election if s/he is defeated in the speech from the throne or the budget. However, convention is that the lg will do whatever the premier asks. The only time in Canadian history the governor has rejected the first ministers's advice was 1926. Anyway the point is that the courts do not decide constitutional conventions. TFD (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

"Ms. Guichon had spent many weeks consulting with more than 30 experts from Canada as well as Britain and Australia – other Commonwealth countries that use the Westminster parliamentary system. These experts included viceregal counterparts, constitutional lawyers, legal experts and former MLAs.

By the time Ms. Clark arrived at Government House, according to an official familiar with the Lieutenant-Governor's deliberations, Ms. Guichon had largely made up her mind: Constitutional convention dictated that she should see if another party could realistically form a government before calling for an election."[9] Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 07:02, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

What does "decide constitutional conventions" mean? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 14:00, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

What I meant was that courts cannot enforce a constitutional convention. So in Canada, same sex couples who wanted to marry successfully sued in court to force the government to marry them, because they argued the government had broken a law (the Charter of Rights). But the courts cannot force government to follow a constitutional convention. Christie Clark cannot sue the lieutenant-governor to appoint her as premier and if the lieutenant-governor's decision had gone the other way, the opposition could not have sued to remove her as premier. TFD (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To bring this discussion back a bit, I don't understand the relevance of the convention debate. The fact that all of the realms will have the separate offices of sovereign occupied by the same natural person is not convention but is legislatively codified in the 1931 Statute of Westminster, which states "it would be in accord with the established constitutional position of all the members of the Commonwealth in relation to one another that any alteration in the law touching the Succession to the Throne or the Royal Style and Titles shall hereafter require the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom". And according to the Interpretation Act (Canada), "The preamble of an enactment shall be read as a part of the enactment intended to assist in explaining its purport and object", and according to the Interpretation Act (Ontario), "The preamble of an Act shall be deemed a part thereof and is intended to assist in explaining the purport and object of the Act". And from Adam Dodek's The Canadian Constitution in reference to the 1867 Constitution Act, "The preamble has served as the source of recognizing and incorporating many British constitutional principles into Canadian constitutional law". As a result, even if preambles themselves cannot generally create new laws, they can legislatively recognize already existing legal principles, and thus bring these principles into the realm of legislatively codified law. There are numerous examples of this within rulings of the Supreme Court of Canada. As such, unless the Canadian and/or British Parliaments repeal or alter the 1931 Statute (which they are free to do given Parliamentary Supremacy), the fact that the two countries must share the same natural person as their respective Sovereigns, and that the two must agree to any changes in the rules for appointing this shared person, are in fact legally binding and codified under current legislation. trackratte (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what you are saying. The preamble says that the UK parliament must receive consent from the Dominion governments, but OTOH since succession is changed by legislation of the UK parliament and they do not have to follow any previous laws, it places no limitation on them. And whomever their laws determine is monarch is also monarch in Canada. TFD (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

That is not what the preamble says, as can be clearly seen by the fact that I just quoted it. It says "any alteration in the law...shall hereafter require the assent...of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom", i.e. alterations to succession laws will be done by complete consensus only.

Second, yes the Parliament of the UK is legally obligated to follow all previous laws until those laws are changed. Parliamentary sovereignty means they have the ability to modify, delete, and create all laws regardless of the opinions or actions of previous Parliaments, not that they are above the law. Thus, until such time as a piece of legislation is lawfully changed, it applies to any and all, which is to say the basic constitutional principle of "the rule of law".

The Statute of Westminster is a piece of legislation that incorporates a pre-existing legal principle and codifies it within legislative law. As such, the Parliament of the UK is legally bound to only achieve complete consensus before being authorized to change the rules of succession. They can exercise their Parliamentary Sovereignty by amending the Statute of Westminster 1931 in order to allow them to legislate unilateral change, but such an option has not been pursued. As such, the fact that the rules of succession are only subject to modification based on absolute consensus is a matter of British and Canadian law, and will remain so until the 1931 Statute is modified or repealed.

As a result, the entire discussion revolving around constitutional convention, and whether or not any given convention is enforceable in a given court is irrelevant to this discussion, as it is not one of convention, but one of very clearly articulate legislated laws. trackratte (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

They don't have to amend the preamble to the 1931 Act because (A) preambles are not legally enforceable and (B) any legislation on the succession automatically repeals any previous legislation on the matter. The preamble as you correctly pointed out recognized an existing "constitutional position," which was a constitutional convention that the UK would require the consent of Dominion parliaments in amending the succession. It would be very rude for Westminster to amend the succession without getting the Dominions' consent, but it would not be illegal. And Canada would not challenge the succession in court. TFD (talk) 17:42, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

A) See Constitutional Preambles: A Comparative Analysis for example, which acknowledges that preambles are not generally a source of positive law (preambles can not legislate a new law), however, according to the Supreme Court of Canada "the preamble does have important legal effects" which can recognize and affirm legal principles or bring into written law what was previously unwritten law (remembering that the British Constitution is primarily unwritten, so legal principles are enforceable by the courts without expressly legislated laws).

As such, from preambles "the Court has inferred a number of other fundamental principles that are recognized in the United Kingdom. These include the doctrine of full faith and credit, the doctrine of paramountcy, the notion of the rule of law, the legislative privileges for Parliament and the provincial legislatures, and the interdependence between democratic governance and freedom of political speech. The Chief Justice pointed out that judicial independence is also an unwritten rule of Canadian constitutional law, because the United Kingdom has a tradition of judicial independence".

As you can see then, preambles are used for two reasons: 1) to illustrate the purpose and context of a law, and 2) to incorporate into written law certain pre-existing unwritten legal principles.

So, the 1931 Statute recognizes a pre-existing point of British law and codifies it. Stating that only legislation is enforceable by Canadian and UK courts is a very American POV and does not recognize the nature of British common law.

As a result, the evidence we have before us is 1) the UK Parliament, and all other dominion parliaments, are bound to achieve consensus before changing the rules of succession, and 2) the UK Parliament, along with all other dominion parliaments, sought and achieved consensus before changing the rules of succession.

We have a rule, and we see this rule applied in practice. To go back and say that the rule does not exist is interesting, but ultimately speculative. Absence evidence to the contrary in the form of a specific court ruling, or in practice in the form of a unilateral change of the rules of succession, there is no evidence to show that the UK and the dominions can unilaterally change the rules of succession. trackratte (talk) 14:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

The "legal effects" of preambles are to explain the purpose of the law and to aid in interpretation, not to "incorporate" pre-existing laws. (I think you mean codify, since a pre-existing law is already incorporated into the law.) I did not say btw that only legislation can be enforced by the courts, obviously common law can be too. Don't know why you think the U.S. does not have a common law tradition too - read Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor's Snug Harbor if you don't believe me. Or watch The Paper Chase. But common law and constitutional convention are two different things. Common law is established by precedents in court decisions, and btw is overridden by legislation. Conventions cannot be enforced by the courts and if you disagree please provide an example. TFD (talk) 18:29, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

The Federal Court of Appeal enforced a convention in the case brought against the Crown by Fateh Kamel, affirming the Crown-in-Council's prerogative to deny passports to citizens. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 01:55, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the court did not enforce anything, it refused to force the minister of foreign affairs (not the Crown) to issue a passport. The concept of mandamus is that the Crown may question the reasonableness of its ministers in exercising their instructions. In this case the judge decided that the minister acted reasonably. TFD (talk) 02:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I gave you five examples quoted from the Chief Justice of Canada. And if something is codified into written legislation it is no longer, by definition, a convention. trackratte (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You are confusing unwritten constitutional law with unwritten constitutional convention. The first is enforced by the courts, the second is not. In the full faith and credit judgment (Morguard Investments Ltd v De Savoye) for example the court decided that judgments of courts of record should be considered conclusive proof of debt because that was the intention of the 1867 Act, which determined that judges are appointed by the Governor General-in-Council and their decisions may be appealed to the Supreme Court. Of course parliament could pass laws to codify constitutional conventions. The reality is that did not happen in the preamble to the Statue of Westminster. And instead of providing original arguments, you need to provide secondary sources that make the same arguments you do. TFD (talk) 02:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

TFD, your argument would generally be correct, and could be, as we of course do not have a specific court decision. However, as has been my position all along, I see your position as lacking sufficient nuance when it comes to the unique status of the 1931 SofW, which is to say generally preambular language is not legally binding but this is not a general case. The 1931 SofW is an exception (or more properly there are solid grounds to believe it would be seen as such by a competent legal authority), where the preamble is seen as legally binding, particularly from a Canadian point of view. For example, here is an excerpt from the Succession to the Crown Bill 2012-13 Bill No 110 2012-13 RESEARCH PAPER 12/81, House of Commons, UK (italics added for emphasis):

"It is sometimes suggested that the UK is obliged under the Statute of Westminster 1931 to gain the assent of the other realms before making any changes to the rules of succession,9 although this argument is perhaps overstated...The argument derives from the provision in the Preamble to the Statute of Westminster that, any alteration in the law touching the Succession to the Throne or the Royal Style and Titles shall hereafter require the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In general, preambular language does not have the binding force of the operative sections of an Act, although it may be used to assist in interpretation. The obligation may be regarded therefore as political rather than legal. However, the Statute of Westminster is an unusual instrument in many ways. Few other 20th century statutes have a preamble of this kind; Parliament used the Statute to limit and relinquish its own power and sovereignty; it governed what were effectively independent states, and which became undoubtedly so in the course of using its provisions; it allowed certain of them to take up its provisions at a time and to an extent of their own choosing; and it reflected prior agreements between them which were akin to a treaty. There is jurisprudence from Canada that asserts the need for agreement across the realms for any changes, comparing it to a treaty, suggesting that in at least one realm the commitment indicated in the Preamble is regarded as binding.1[10]

Obviously, my position is held from a Canadian point of view, and this is reflected as a valid and legally sound position within well-researched and official secondary sources. I also freely acknowledge that there are likely secondary sources corroborating your position, as it, generally applied, is valid, and I also freely acknowledge the validity of certain counter arguments. Once again however, this is not a general case and the SofW is an "unusual" statute, thus the requirement to allow sufficient room for nuance within an argument such as this. trackratte (talk) 11:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

So Trackratte; by your own admission you have acknowledged that your position is only WP:POV, and therefore irrelevant. Mediatech492 (talk) 13:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Your excerpt refers to RESEARCH PAPER 09/24, which says, "the precise nature of this requirement is subject to some disagreement." It then quotes two experts who say it has moral but not legal force. While you may continue to argue your Canadian point of view, the reality is that legal opinion has moved on, and the preamble is not seen as binding.

I think the confusion may come from the belief that the 1931 Act created separate crowns and succession was determined by the laws of each realm, similar to the situation with the UK and Hanover. So if the UK unilaterally changed its succession laws, it was possible that the UK and the dominions could have different sovereigns. The current opinion is that the sovereign of the UK is automatically sovereign of Canada. The "jurisprudence from Canada" is a reference to O'Donohue v Canada. It is not the "Canadian point of view," but comments by a superior court judge that set no legal precedent and were rejected by the Canadian government and a Quebec court.

TFD (talk) 16:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Rfc nearing closure

Just so yas know, this Rfc is down to its final days. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Is there a way to get more people involved from the broader community? Otherwise it looks like it's headed for relisting. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 00:08, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:CANADA, perhaps? GoodDay (talk) 00:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I doubt many editors are interested or knowledgeable in the topic. The other problem is that most people's knowledge about the issue comes from discussion about the Statute of Westminster and the Abdication and legal opinion has changed since then. TFD (talk) 01:07, 12 July 2017 (UTC)