Wikipedia talk:In the news

See these sources to look for breaking news in various parts of the world.
Please endevour at all times to be NPOV in your reporting.
This means news stories should originate from all over the world.

This page Template:In the news is the "In the news" section on the Main Page.

NOTE: Any bolded item that appears on the Main Page must be updated and listed on its corresponding subject area page before being listed on the Main Page. For example, a news item should first be listed on current events, then the article on the subject of that news item should be updated to reflect a current event. Then that item can be placed on Template:In the news. Since Wikipedia is not a news report, please only do this for news that is important enough to merit changing the article.

After updating this template, please click this link to clear the Main Page cache, so anonymous users can see the update.

See the guidelines at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page. For older discussion, see the archive.

---

In the news The ATR 72 involved in the crash Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283 (aircraft pictured) crashes in the Brazilian state of São Paulo, killing all 62 people on board. Sheikh Hasina resigns as the prime minister of Bangladesh following anti-government protests, and Muhammad Yunus is appointed leader of an interim government. Following a mass stabbing in Southport, far-right protesters riot in England and Northern Ireland. The United States, Russia, and their respective allies agree to a prisoner exchange of 26 people. Ongoing: Israel–Hamas war timeline Russian invasion of Ukraine timeline Sudanese civil war timeline Summer Olympics timeline Recent deaths: Jon McBride Susan Wojcicki Kalatiku Paembonan Taberon Honie Galboda Gnanissara Thera Billy Bean

Notes about the section

Please read before editing the section or making comments on this discussion page.

Main Page: Updates and Caching

The main page does not necessarily update immediately with updates from the "In the news" section. The next update to the Main Page by an administrator will make the change appear properly. This link will purge the cache of the Main Page so that the present version appears: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=purge

Image notation

When using images, parenthetically note in the text that the mentioned item is pictured. Example: "...leader José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero (pictured right) is sworn in..."

Corresponding "Current Events" item

Before adding an item to the "In the news" section, ensure that there is a corresponding item in page Current Events with a URL to an article about the news story.

Copyrighted images

Before placing an image in the template, ensure that its copyright is well-documented and that it is legal for it to be displayed on the Wikipedia.

Accuracy and conciseness

I've made a number of changes to the Ukraine story, but I'm a bit concerned by the way that story has been represented on ITN. It was far too long, for a start. It was also seriously inaccurate - Viktor Yanukovych is/was the Prime Minister of Ukraine, not the "incumbent president" - and there were too many typos. This really doesn't make Wikipedia look good. Could contributors please try to be more concise, to make sure the facts are right and that the stories are correctly spelled? -- ChrisO 20:54, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The inaccuracy was one specific instance (as you state), and was added by one specific contributor (and one other did not pick up the problem). I have been adding to the story, and would have fixed that immediately had I still been online at the time. As regards length - well, the current version is shorter - but not entirely accurate (the "consequences" threat was only from the EU - Colin Powell stated that the US could not accept the legitimacy of the result). My problem was that I did not want to represent only the US or EU viewpoint, and also I did not want to omit both statements from the ITN summary. I should point out also, that on Internet Explorer, with the image floating correctly, the ITN section was sufficiently short. The only problem is that the accompanying image creates blank space below in Firefox (thus requiring a much shorter piece if we have to accommodate that awkward formatting). zoney ♣ talk 22:35, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Stale news entries

All the current news entries are from November 24 (3 days ago!). These entries are stale and need to be replaced. Could someone help me with it?

Do remember, this is supposed to only be updated with stories for which the relevant articles have been updated. Apart from really big stories, or where someone has been updating the relevant article (such as with the Ukraine story), we should expect to see at least a day's lag on ITN (after all, the story should go on Current Events first too!). I'm quite glad there's only three sensible stories on ITN right now (and no two from the one country or the US!) - the oldest is indeed three days ago - but that is not so long ago in the context of Wikipedia - an encyclopaedia.

I think ITN has been in better shape these past few days than in some time.

zoney ♣ talk 20:24, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually the Ukrainian story refers to a significant development that happened today: that the Ukrainian parliament has actually invalidated the election. This is probably a vital tipping point in the crisis. —Michael Z. 22:22, 2004 Nov 27 (UTC)

Too spread out

Now we cover sports? How about technology news? Weather? It should be done more elegantly. Perhaps a simple "Other news..." could be added instead of the sports link and this Other news could serve as a category for multiple sections, including sports. Exigentsky

I don't think the Kazaa story should be there - it's simply pandering to many Wikipedians' inherent bias! ETSB anyone? zoney ♣ talk 12:21, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"ESTB"? And what's wrong with the Kazaa story? Many Wikipedians have an inherent bias against the Iraqi war, and that shows in ITN as well. --Golbez 17:31, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia that Slashdot built. And no, I am not happy with the ISRC story either - it does not seem to be in the headlines (or other news) anywhere but NYT - and is indeed again indicative of the bias of many Wikipedians (admittedly myself included).

Oh, and just to point out, a lot of the illegally held individuals at Camp X-ray were taken prisoner during the Afghanistan invasion. zoney ♣ talk 20:22, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know which news sources you're reading, Zoney, but it's been very widely reported - it's on the front page of Google News as I write this! -- ChrisO 16:56, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just think anyone who complains about the content on ITN really has no concept as to what Wikipedia is, and really needs to learn the doctrine of Be Bold. --Golbez 21:19, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

The "be bold" does not extend to regarding Wikipedia as a scribble-pad. There are rules and guidelines, and for every single page - only some things are appropriate. Inappropriate work is of course submitted all the time - and it's the job of all of us to fix this, but hey, I reserve my right to gripe and moan about such content.

In this case, my fears as regards the Red Cross story seem to have been proven to be unnecessary. But I indeed can "be bold" in voicing criticism - and will continue to do so.

At least I am watching out for bias in Wikipedia. There seem to be many who believe we can do no wrong, and that we manage to maintain NPOV (probably mostly we don't!).

zoney ♣ talk 19:25, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Breaking News

While most or all the entries User:Zanimum replaced ITN with probably should be there - I do not consider that we can place them on ITN yet. It is in the nature of ITN that it will be a day or two behind but for very major events (that Wikipedians are fast updating an article on Wikipedia with).

ITN quite clearly exists to link to background articles related to current news stories. There must be at least one article updated with the news events - this is bolded in the story. If this is the case with Zanimum's articles, then bold the relevant articles.

Also, it seems that three stories is now the norm on ITN. Finally, at least one of the stories must be linked to the image on ITN.

zoney ♣ talk 14:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree absolutely. Perhaps this could be added to the ITN guidelines? -- ChrisO 16:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do not believe I have myself made up any of the ITN requirements I listed above - I've definitely read each point elsewhere.

I do think we should more clearly point out that the stories may not necessarily be today's, or even yesterday's news headlines. There is already somewhere a point about this - that it isn't necessarily for "breaking news". zoney ♣ talk 17:06, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page. -- Cyrius|✎ 17:20, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rwanda post inaccurate

I revised the Rwanda story for accuracy. This is the original text: The Rwandan army invades eastern Congo, attacking and burning villages. The last invasion started the Congo Civil War, which resulted in the deaths of 3–4 million people.

Congolese officials maintain they are being invaded on a daily basis, however UN observers from MONUC said, "A group of 100 men suspected of being Rwandan soldiers was seen by a MONUC patrol in Rutshuru this morning." [1] . A few sources like the BBC seem to be exaggerating calling this an invasion, disregarding the MONUC statement that they may have spotted Rwandan troops. --Dejitarob 17:34, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The MONUC chief, M'Hand Djalouzi, has said "Infiltration is nothing new but this is something else, it has the appearance of an invasion." And I don't see why the BBC would be exaggerating. - Xed 18:11, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I was just in the process of adding that it is most likely Rwanda is invading DR Congo since its happened before and most recently Rwandan president has been citing Congo is sheltering Hutu rebels. Additionally, the UN SC pleaded a few days ago for Rwanda to not use military force. But my point is we need to refrain from conclusions until further evidence surfaces.--Dejitarob 18:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Dejitarob that the wording was incorrect. At most just one side is saying that. Yet Xed's wording states it as fact. This is clear violation of our NPOV policy. But that is moot anyway, since the entry does not follow the guidelines for putting things on this page. Specifically, no article was updated with the new info, nor was any article highlighted. Thus that item was removed. --mav 19:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The BBC and the UN say there's an invasion. Do we have to wait till three million are dead to report it? Also, Congo Civil War has been updated to reflect news. - Xed 20:03, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The BBC is reporting what the Congolese and the UN are saying. Your wording indicated as fact what the Congolese are saying. I fixed that. --mav 20:10, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Diplomats, Congolese authorities, humanitarian and religious sources have reported that Rwandan soldiers had actually crossed into the DRC." - [2] Are you waiting till you see them with your own eyes? - Xed 20:32, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What are thousands fleeing from? Is it all a mirage? [3] - Xed 20:36, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Xed's reverts

By inserting, and then re-inserting the Rwanda story 4 times (1, 2, 3, 4), User:Xed is in violation of the Wikipedia:Three revert rule and is eligible to be blocked for up to 24 hours. -- Netoholic @ 20:33, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

Article (Congo Civil War) was updated between reversions. - Xed 20:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We should not be having a reversion war on the ITN template. The claim of a Rwandese invasion is quite clearly POV, so Mav and others have been justified in reverting it. I've protected the template to give people a chance to calm down here. -- ChrisO 21:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Serbian president "assassination attempt" scare

Serbia's interior minister says the "assassination attempt" on Serbia's president Boris Tadic was a case of road rage against his motor convoy in Belgrade traffic. [4] Just wanted to give a heads up so when the page becomes unprotected it can be changed to reflect this update.--Dejitarob 00:22, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

it is still unclear was it assassination attempt. the driver of a car which hit one of the cars is Serb working in US embassy which reported him to police. [[User:Avala|Avala|★]] 14:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Protected

Why is the page protected at the moment? [[User:Dmn|Dmn / Դմն ]] 01:59, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It had to do with a brief series of reversions regarding Rwanda's "invasion" of the Congo. I suggest it be unprotected if the issue has passed. [[User:Rdsmith4|User:Rdsmith4/sig]] 02:24, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh silly me, I see it now. Thx [[User:Dmn|Dmn / Դմն ]] 02:31, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the death of Bernard is of international importance. And it should be noted he was 93 years old. I hope the template will be unprotected soon. Gerritholl aka Topjaklont | Talk 09:26, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree, I'm Dutch and I don't even think it belongs here, his death was not unexpected, he died at old age and is not known worldwide. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 17:24, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

Jeez people, ITN is not the primary source of what is important to 50%+1 of the people in the world. Stop thinking it is. --Golbez 20:32, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

Of course it isn't. I don't see what it has to do with the point Solitude and I are makingGerritholl aka Topjaklont | Talk 23:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's unprotected now, so if you can think of something else to put there please do so... -- ChrisO 00:21, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lori Berenson

(See BBC) This is *enormously big* news in Latin America. Any chance of its being included?

It's not obvious how to edit the In The News section. I have added it.--Gbleem 05:48, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Galloway and Hussein

Regarding the back-and-forth about Hussein and Galloway, I've linked to Galloway's picture so perhaps that solves that. Ruy Lopez 15:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikinews

Should each ITN item have a link to a corresponding Wikinews story, if there is one? It would provide more current news than WP is meant to provide. --Whosyourjudas (talk) 01:35, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes it should. Only thing, the front page gets changed as things happen, and the Wikinews article takes another day or two. Its more WikiSNEWs then anything, takes so long to -- user:zanimum

Kofi Annan "under fire"

As far as I can tell, only Republicans are seriously questioning Kofi Annan's character. The choice of words here is all wrong anyway, and shows strong bias; "under fire" and "admitting"? It isn't sensible to use "admit" unless you're talking about guilt, and virtually nobody seems to believe he is guilty of anything.

The first thing that happened after Norm Coleman got his headlines was that the ranking Democrat on the Senate's Permanent Investigations Subcommittee, Carl Levin of Michigan, split from his chairman to say there was no justification for calling on Annan to resign mid-investigation. [5]

Even Tony Blair, the United States' current closest ally supports Annan. He is also backed by Jacques Chirac and Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero; in fact, he has unanimous support from the UN Security Council:

"There was certainly a unanimous view that this was the right thing to do," Baali said.

"Nobody in the room called for Kofi Annan's resignation. On the contrary, we all expressed our confidence in the secretary-general," said German Ambassador Gunter Pleuger. [6]

It is ridiculous to say Annan is under fire when there is only one group that views things in such polar terms.

Chirac told a news conference he questioned the "hidden motives" of some of those who had spoken out against Annan.

He added: "We in Europe hold Kofi Annan in high esteem and recognise his unstinting efforts in the cause of peace and democracy."

Unlike in the United States, European leaders generally do not cling to foolish beliefs. --[[User:Eequor|ᓛᖁᑐ]] 18:43, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Despite your unnecessary and inflammatory final sentence, it appears that you are correct as regards criticism of Annan. There is, in fact, a single political leader - Repulican senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota - calling for his resignation. I have edited the item accordingly. [[User:Rdsmith4|User:Rdsmith4/sig]] 19:48, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That event (Coleman calling for Annan's resignation), as I recall happened several days ago. Are there any newer events happening in the world? or is it common for this template to have such old stories on it? -KS 23:02, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NZ Civil Unions

I was wondering if anyone objected me to rewording this to read:

The New Zealand Parliament legalises civil unions. The new law provides a way for de facto couples including same-sex couples to gain legal recognition of their relationships, but stops short of same-sex marriage.

Evil Monkey → Talk 07:19, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Local News

Enough already with the Scott Peterson story. We do not need the minutia of a single murder case in the whole world, added here simply because the US media focussed on it.

If it becomes an issue over international criticism of the US executing criminals, then it is of some relevance to the rest of tht world. At the moment, there is no reason why Wikipedians from any other country shouldn't add their country's murder trial.

zoney ♣ talk 10:27, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A local murder trial, that happens to be on the front page of the BBC news word edition right now. Oh, and the top stories page at CTV.ca, the World Latest page at the Guardian, the news page at CBC, the World News page at the Australian, and El Diario's front page. Gentgeen 12:37, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's top news in the US, that I do not deny. It is not on the BBC News front page (world edition) right now, and is in fact, only a side story even on the "Americas" section. This is entirely the weight I would suggest that should be accorded to it by any truly international news reporting. And certainly, with Wikipedia only having at most five stories, I do not agree that this should be one of them! zoney ♣ talk 12:50, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sensationalism

The "cannibal" murderer story in Korea is sensationalist journalism at best. This is not "front page" news by any stretch of the imagination, even if the gruesome case is indeed newsworthy.

zoney ♣ talk 10:27, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This one's on the International News page of the Irish Independant Online. Gentgeen 12:37, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whoop-de-do, it's top of our parochial little newspaper. That's possibly somewhat unfair to the Indo (actually my preferred broadsheet), but the point I am making is that it is not necessarily the standard for what counts as one of the 3-5 most important international news stories. zoney ♣ talk 12:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

British and Irish current events link

I have to question why this is on the template. It seems to be not a well used page and a geographical bias. Evil Monkey → ^Talk 07:54, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Mea culpa. I put it on the template as it is a current events page, and all the other current events pages are there. I only created the page last night - which explains why it's not yet well used. Only time will tell if it's a success or not. OK, there's a geographical bias (Wikipedia has lots of pages with a geographical bias - it allows us to cover issues in more detail.) But the geographical bias is clear from the title, and there's nothing stopping others starting other pages with a geographical bias. Of course, if we had lots and lots of regional current event pages (so that we'd need a fourth line in the template to cover them all, say), we'd need a more efficient way of linking to them. But we don't yet. I'd be grateful if we could see whether this one takes off and flies rather than smother it at birth. :) jguk 08:20, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regardless it should not go on the front page! We have a current events in science and technology, but it is not on the front page, it is linked from the top of Current events and this is as it should be, otherwise we will end up having dozens of links to various "current events in..." on the main page which will further clutter it up. I am reverting (preserving link on the current events page, however). --Lexor|Talk 13:32, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

I am removing the sports current events for the same reason. --Lexor|Talk 13:33, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

I've readded them in a way that does not take up much room, but in line with the approach that we should give a reader useful links. We don't yet have dozens of links from the Current events section - we only have 6. If it got too large, we'd need to consolidate it (eg I would not like to see 4 lines of links). But it's not too large yet, so we can leave that to a later day. jguk 13:54, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This shouldn't be on the front page. The type of page in general (current events in a country/region) is a good idea, but perhaps instead of linking each country individually, someone should start to compile a list of all countries with these and link to the LIST from the ITN template. Otherwise, its geographical bias and should be removed (god forbit an United States current events page be linked to ;) ) --[[User:Tomf688|tomf688 (talk)]] 19:25, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

So far the only country specific pages are British and Irish current events and Canadian current events. I agree with you about a list if we get loads more of them. The two news pages are new pages - and it does no harm to advertise them on the front page to see if they take off. Perhaps we can keep them on the main page and as is for now, and reassess in a month's time? jguk 19:42, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Err, why was UK&Ireland removed but NOT Canada?

Yet more north-american bias on the Wikipedia, I fear Kiand 20:19, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

EU-Turkey negotiations

European Union leaders agree to invite Turkey to begin negotiations to join the EU from 3 October 2005.

How can something "begin from" a certain date? It begins "on" a date, doesn't it? Brianjd 09:02, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

Template:In_the_news vs Template:In the news

I think the second form is better. When editing, it looks better. The link looks better without the underscores. And there are no caching problems because the both links will point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:In_the_news. Yet this page, near the start, uses the first form. Brianjd 10:39, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

Bush

I know I put the Person of the Year story up there, but do we really need to see Bush's ugly mug again? :) (just my fourpenn'orth) jguk 18:49, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No we do not. And why does some magazine's opinion on who is the world's most influential person qualify as "In the news" material? --NoPetrol 21:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Because. --Golbez 03:52, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

Because. I agree. It deserves to be there. --Randy Johnston 00:01, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And by this time tomorrow, it will be gone and this entire conversation will be 100% moot. --Golbez 02:56, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Oil giant?

Shouldn't it be "oil company" instead of "oil giant", for the sake of neutrality? Isn't in opinion that the company is a "giant"? --NoPetrol 21:12, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not really. It became the largest oil producer in Russia by a long, long way. I don't think there's any doubt that it's a giant. Besides, it's not a complement, just a statement on its size. (You have to be pretty big to rack up a USD27bn tax demand! :) ) jguk 21:45, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, the way I look at it, a statement is an opinion if it is not completely TRUE or FALSE. For example, a statement like "the stove is hot" is an opinion, because there is not a specific temperature that the stove must exceed to be considered "hot", therefore such a statement is neither true nor false. A statement such as "the stove is hotter than the grill" is a fact, because it is either hotter than the grill or it is not; there is nothing in between the two states. That is why calling a company a "giant" is an opinion, because there is no set size that a company must exceed to be called a giant. I think it would be more appropriate if the headline read "Russia auctions off the main production unit of YUKOS, the country's largest oil company...” Let the reader decide whether the company is a giant or not. --NoPetrol 03:33, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Taking the approach of NoPetrol would pretty much prevent us using any adjectives at all. If we followed this no musician could ever be called popular, no politician unpopular; no person could ever be tall, no company large, no sports player great. Do we really want that? DJ Clayworth 17:24, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That is incorrect. It is not our place to decide if a musician is popular, but it could be a fact that the musician is one of the most popular. Miles Davis is one of the most identifiable contributers to the genre of cool jazz. Yukos is Russia's largest oil company. Many people consider Plan 9 from Outer Space to be the worst movie ever made. Microsoft is a more powerful company than Apple. Fox News is a conservative news station compared to CNN. --NoPetrol 21:08, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

According to AP news, Yukos is in fact only the second largest oil company in Russia anyway. --NoPetrol 23:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Coyright images on the front page

I think these should be avoided as it sends out a bad message to new Wikipedians that copyright images can be used. Fair use images should always be a last resort. ed g2s • talk 20:35, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's a load of crap. Fair use was invented for a reason, it's not something we should make too big an effort to avoid. Of course, other things being equal, public domain images are preferable. Brianjd 06:57, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

FBI memos

OK, the FBI internal memos recently obtained by the ACLU (see links below) are enormously important news. I wanted to put them up in the box — but I can't find any updated article (per the requirements) to link to. Can it really be possible that the revelations haven't reached the wikipedia yet; or am I just looking in the wrong place? Doops 06:17, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC) Washington Post article New York Times article

Blunkett

The David Blunkett article as far less certain in the fall from power section than this article suggests.--Jirate 00:15, 2004 Dec 23 (UTC)

I know. I'm trying to improve it with a new David Blunkett scandal page, but it needs working up - and I haven't had time to add the Budd report details, or say anything about the biography. jguk 00:17, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've changed what is written here to better reflect the conclusions. DJ Clayworth 17:18, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Tsunami headline

Shouldn't the image for this tsunami story, which involves about four times as many deaths as the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, be larger than it is now? This is not a normal news story. --NoPetrol 19:30, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For formatting's sake, no. The size limit was picked for a reason, I imagine. Perhaps we should have a blinking red dot for major major stories, like Drudge uses sirens. I'm not being facetious, that would let people know that a story of truly massive proportions has occurred. --Golbez 21:01, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

News stories seem to be sorted by importance, occurance, and how many persons are impacted naturally, so there should be no need for a blinking light or anything of that nature. --tomf688 (talk) 03:48, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

Asteroid

Removing the item the instant a safer prediction comes along is not good. This item has still not finished and the predictions have not been studied enough. This is still a major story. The constant remove seems to show a lack of understanding of even the most basic newtonian physics.--Jirate 15:49, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Actually, your posting as imminent news of the scant potential of an asteroid impact that wouldn't even happen for a few decades on the front page of one of the world's largest websites is going to create panic among people who don't have the slightest clue about anything related to science at all. Furthermore, those of us that do have an interest in science don't appreciate it when someone jumps to conclusions before all the experimental data has been collected. So don't do that. Thanks. --Alexwcovington 15:58, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually the posting, not by me, was up for most of the 27th. and it has now been removed it. Those of us with a knowledge of science rather than just an interest in it would be happier if once a story has been started it is left to run it's natural course rather than have it removed by someone who jumps to conclusions before all the experimental data has been collected. So the story should be restored and allowed to wind down in public rather than having it disappear.--Jirate 16:10, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

You're not the only one with a knowledge of science. As of now, 2004 MN4 is no longer a current news story at all, any more than 1997 XR2 or 1950 DA. -- Curps 16:18, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do understand that with 1950 DA there is a 50 year interval between observations, allowing a very acurate calculation, 2004 MN4 is still only about 9 months. The degree of uncertainty on 2004 mn is thefore much greater.--Jirate 16:25, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

The folks who actually study asteroid impact probabilities for a living disagree with you. They have come up with new values on the Torino and Palermo impact scales that rate the risk as much lower than before, and this very low-level risk is no longer front-page newsworthy. -- Curps 16:28, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well as you seem to think you have a direct line to them ask them how done and dusted this is?--Jirate 16:34, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

I don't have a direct line to them, I rely on the same publicly available information as anyone else, and some of the external links on the 2004 MN4 page are a good place to start. That being said, I do have a particular interest in asteroids and have contributed to some of the pages about them on Wikipedia. I have full confidence that the folks who do these threat assessments are entirely competent. -- Curps 16:38, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See for instance http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/2004mn4.html — the threat of an impact in 2044 is now assessed at about 1 in 70,000. -- Curps 16:41, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is not enough info on that page, it contains the probability not the degree of confidence. Is this at the 90% 95% or 99% level. I notice now that you didn't say you had a knowledge of science. Perhaps you need to go and look up things like f tests and t-tests to understand what I'm talking about--Jirate 16:49, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Do please stop with the arrogance. It shouldn't be there, it's not there and that's the end of it, surely. violet/riga (t) 16:54, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How does it manage to be arrogance on my part? As far as I can see it curps and Alexwcovington who are being arrogant. and your just demonstating ignorance.--Jirate 16:59, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

It's quite obvious, really:

• "constant remove seems to show a lack of understanding of even the most basic newtonian physics"
• "Those of us with a knowledge of science rather than just an interest"
• "Perhaps you need to go and look up things like..."

All obviously arrogant statements. violet/riga (t) 17:06, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And when you consider that

the first line is a respose to an accusation of spreading "FUD".

the second is a response to "Furthermore, those of us that do have an interest in science don't appreciate it"

and finally the 3rd is an attempt to point someone in the direction of stats that might

It show what a sham you and your POV are.--Jirate 17:20, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Poor excuses for a poor attitude. violet/riga

and that's an even worse excuse for you pomposity.--Jirate 17:29, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

There is some discussion of methodology on that page, below the table ("Impact Table Legend"). Do your own research if it fascinates you. But the bottom line is, the threat is now much, much too low to be front-page newsworthy, and that's all that matters for the purpose of this discussion. PS, I'm not so sure about your own knowledge of science. You seem to be one of those folks who wants to post "original research" to Wikipedia. -- Curps 17:01, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't need to do any research, all I need to able to do is read what is written down and note which data is missing, from normal statistical work, as for the discussion of work other than admiting in can be out by a factor of 10, it doesn't actually give any data. You seem to beleive NASA web site because it's NASA rather than what is written, if anything showed a lack of understanding of science that does. --Jirate 17:14, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Around this time, I was keeping my eye on BBC World News and DW Journal. No mention was made. I only heard it on my radio. This is not news, and never was, according to my observations. Brianjd 06:51, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

I have also heard that we could be a few seconds away from an asteroid colliding with Earth and not know it. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, then this wouldn't be news even if the risk were 1 in 300 (article) or 1.6% (radio story). Brianjd 06:53, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Looking at only those people who visit Wikipedia, I think if they don't understand science, it is generally their own problem. Potential panic should not be a factor in deciding what news stories to put here. Brianjd 06:55, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Surprise

What a suprise despite having lost the rational argument Violetriga feels free to impose it's views on everyone, just one more demponstration of arrogance and ignorance.--Jirate 23:08, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

No arguments lost. No views imposed. No arrogance or ignorance. No point talking to you. violet/riga (t) 23:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes plenty of arguments lost by you. You have demonstrated you don't understand statitics, physics or just about anything else. --Jirate 23:52, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

You have demonstrated you don't have any communication skills or common sense - let's leave it at that. violet/riga (t) 23:56, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We aren't talking about common sense or communication skills we are talking about rocks in the sky and maths, but how typical of someone who's dug a hole that they try to change the subject, All you've managed to communicated accuratly is your lack of understaning of either common sense or communications skills and your excess of arrogance. --Jirate 00:04, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

At no point have you been able to convince anyone of your argument. You're just feeling sorry for yourself because you've not got your way. violet/riga (t) 00:16, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No not at all. I'm angry at you for making assasment of subjects way outside your area of compidence and also your dishonesty in making excuses for yourself.--Jirate 00:26, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Interesting how well you claim to know me and amusing that you get angry so easily. violet/riga (t) 00:32, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've not claimed to know anything about you that you haven't demonstarted on this page.--Jirate 01:08, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Hey, kids, I just read this entire section, and wow, it has nothing to do with ITN. In fact, in the "Surprise" section alone, I can find no context to figure out what your fight is. You have your own talk pages; please use them. --Golbez 00:44, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

It seems like a personal issue between the two. They should take it to their user's Talk pages. —Cantus…☎ 07:39, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't even know who he is! violet/riga (t) 11:01, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is a discussion about your activities in this page. It stay here--Jirate 11:27, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Susan Sontag

I'm interested to know whether others feel this warrants being on the front page. It doesn't even have an entry on the Current Events page. Evil Monkey → Talk 23:49, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

It is of far less significance than the on going story of 2004 MN, predictions of which have changed yet again.--Jirate 00:04, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

How, Sontag actually died, the asteroid has been, incorrectly, predicted to hit the earth in 2029. When it actually hits the earth, it will be news. oh, and Susan Sontag does appear on Current Events, if you know where to look. Gentgeen 00:12, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The predictions, claculations and observations are still going on and in this case will go for some considerable amount of time. This asteroid and it's angle of approache etc make it a complete sod to do calculations on. In the last 24hrs it gone from 4 on a scale to 0 back upto 1 and then stayed at one but the dates changed. If you look at the predictions, it has many earth close encounters, all of which will influence the rock. Any small error in the inital position will have a cunmlative effect during these encounters. This is an on going story and demonstrates the difficulty of making these important predictions. The current story is the ongoing work to workout where this rocks going to end up.--Jirate 00:26, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to the fact that everyone has a personal bias as to what they consider news-worthy. Personally I'd never heard of Susan Sontag so didn't think it was that important but was very interested in 2004 MN4 as I'm studying astronomy at university and am interested in those sorts of things. Also at the time I looked at Current Events there wasn't an entry there. Evil Monkey → Talk 03:41, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

I had heard of Sontag - couldn't tell you about anything she's done though. Also, the few days since the 2004 MN₄ story broke appears to have created a much more extensive article than Sontag manged in her whole life. -Zaphod Beeblebrox 03:48, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

While it may appear on the deaths list it should appear as an entry if it's ITN-worthy. violet/riga (t) 00:17, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed it originally but after seeing it on the main BBC News page think it may be worth being there. I've removed it because of it not being on current events but won't object to it being added again once that is done as long as it's below the earthquake/tsunami story. violet/riga (t) 23:59, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake

This had a magnitude of 9.0 on the moment magnitude scale. Yes, people could click on the "magnitude" link, but how many will? I think many people are going to interpret this as "9.0 on the Richter scale". Brianjd 06:59, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Great, now people are going to wonder "What's that on the Richter scale?" -- Cyrius|✎ 08:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if they're curious, they'll click on this newfangled "moment magnitude" thing and get educated about the limitations of the Richter scale. Win-win. -- Curps 08:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

non current stories

The current stories are not current. Susan sontag died several days ago and the earth quake was even further in the past. Using the criterial laid out for other items they should be removed.--Jirate 12:03, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Ahem - Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. What you did was vandalize the main page and you could very well be blocked for it. →Raul654 12:05, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

No I didn't vandalis the page. I made it consistant with the rules that have been outlined here. If I am blocked for it, it will be as a result of the dishonest and lack of integrity of the blocker not for vandlism. The deletion of 2004 MN is vandlism it self by the dishonest.--Jirate 12:08, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)