Talk:Sathya Sai Baba

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Number of adherents? and a more general complaint

Yeah, Wikipedia tries to take all sides of an issue into account, and cites as many sources as possible, but a little bit of my respect for Wikipedia dies when I see phrases such as the one that describes the number of Sai Baba adherents. It says that he has between "6 million and 100 million" adherents... I don't see how the people who said 6 million could accidentally miss 94 million, or the people who said 100 million could really blow the numbers that far out of proportion. Maybe we could find a more definitive source and agree on a number?

(BTW, the thing about a little bit of me dying and all of that was a joke)

The other thing I wanted to say was that I have no idea who Sai Baba is. I read the first paragraph, and was so overcome by how cumbersome it was, that I gave up and went home. Go to a GOOD article, and see how their introduction is written. What has happened in this article happens in a lot of religion-related articles- the first paragraph is so dense that I have no idea who this dude (no offense) is. This usually happens because of combined editing by NPOV people and supporters/followers of the religious figure in question. A good example of how this paragraph could be structured(IMHO) would be:

Sathya Sai Baba is a ____. He is also the head of ___, and has been involved in _____. He has written/contributed/appeared in _____. He has also raised some controversy because of ______.

If I saw a paragraph written like this, then I might actually have an idea who this guy is, and Wikipedia would have succeeded in its goal to make the world a little smarter.

Thanks,

Arjun Sharma

I agree with Arjun's comments. Regarding the number of followers, my guess is that the difference of 94 million people is due to which people are being counted as followers. It may be that there are 6 million members in his organization or on his mailing lists, and there are 100 million people who are followers in the sense that they generally agree with some or all of his teachings without belonging to his organization. My point is that there may not be a single correct number, so the appropriate way to deal with it is to put the different ways of counting followers in a footnote. HeBhagawan 15:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the numbers of followers between 6-100 million, I see no solution for it because that is what the sources say. If you ask me, one million at maximum would be closer to the truth. And I agree with HeBhagawan that the answer to the question who is to be counted as a follower is not clear and that this one of causes of the widely divergent numbers. Andries 14:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It is true that the a lot of information is cramped into a few sentences which may be wrong, but the other side of the coin is that this is an encyclopedia in which we try to convey as much relevant information as possible. I noticed that other encyclopedias are also dense with information. Andries 14:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC) amended 14:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the number of adherents is generally agreed to be around 30 million, according to most of the articles cited. There is a single reference to 6 million, which came from Nagel's article. Needless to say, Andries wants that figure in there. If we go on what most of the articles say, the number is given as between 30-50 million. SSS108 ^talk-email 18:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com References Removed

The Salon.com article by Michelle Goldberg has been removed for several key reasons:

• First: Goldberg's article is exclusively an internet article that has never been published in hardcopy form by reputable or reliable media.
• Secondly: David Talbot (founder of Salon.com) described Salon.com as a "progressive, smart tabloid" [1].

Therefore, Salon.com, as a tabloid and exclusive internet reference, is not a reliable source as per WP:RS SSS108 ^talk-email 05:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Tabloid does not mean intrinsically unreliable. Salon is often regarded as a reliable source. JoshuaZ 05:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So what if a source is not on paper? I cannot find that WP:RS dismisses internet only publication. Andries 11:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Joshua, by who? Wikipedia states: "We are not tabloid journalists, we are an encyclopedia." You cannot use a self-professed tabloid as a reliable reference. You will have to rely on reputable and reliable media. SSS108 ^talk-email 06:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, the question whether Salon.com was a reliable source was extensively discussed in mediation between you and me and you agreed that it was a reliable source. In addition, salon.com is generally regarded as a reliable source in various articles in Wikipedia. As such your attempts to remove salon.com have no merit and are disruptive. Andries 06:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, see tabloid. I think that the lack of common sense when interpreting source can also be found on SSS108's website regardig SSB. 06:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not know then what I know now. Therefore, my opinion has changed with this new information. SSS108 ^talk-email 06:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you file a new complaint to the arbcom. If you will not do it then I will do it. Andries 06:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. And we must follow the steps in dispute resolution first. You know the procedure. It's RFC first. SSS108 ^talk-email 06:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the next step after mediation is arbcom. We do not have to go back to RFC Andries 09:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

As someone who has been looking over this article as a mainly uninvolved but interested admin, I a) don't think this is ripe for any for even an RfC yet but b) if it does require more issues it should go straight to ArbCom. There's no point going through the long drawn out process when the ArbCom has already looked at this issue once. JoshuaZ 06:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Joshua, the question whether salon.com is suitable as a source was discussed extensively in mediation. We (SSS108 and Andries) then agreed that it was fine. The question whether it is suitable as source was not discussed in the arbcom case regarding Sathya Sai Baba. According to Wikipedia:dispute resolution the next step after mediation is arbcom. Why do you then suggest to file an RFC is something I cannot understand. Andries 09:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

They have not made any ruling about this particular reference, JoshuaZ. So what do you suggest? SSS108 ^talk-email 06:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, when Andries had grievances about the article, he filed a request for clarification with ArbCom that was ignored. The request was dropped as "stagnant" finally. SSS108 ^talk-email 06:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Then file an RfC. However, to be blunt, I find it hard to believe that any of the editors here intend to pay much attention to it. JoshuaZ 06:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Filing an RFC for this case is not in correspondence with the procedure as described in Wikipedia:dispute resolution. Andries 09:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, then is it fair to say that you agree that removing this reference is within Wikipedia policy? Thanks SSS108 ^talk-email 08:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Under what logic? JoshuaZ 08:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com is a borderline source. As a tabloid,it cannot be considered a reliable source. But if their reporting has been picked up by mainstream media, and the same stories found resonance in other media, it may be OK to cite from them. If this is the only source for a highly controversial piece of information, editors should exercise caution when using it, or avoid using it, in particular on BLPs. If they information was accurate, it would most probably have showed up on other media. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What proof is offered that Salon.com is an apparently unreliable-tabloid ? Or can you point to the policy that says all tabloids are unreliable. I would note some of the most read newspapers are in tabloid format. Wjhonson 15:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wjhonson, I provided the link earlier. The founder of Salon. com (David Talbot) himself called Salon a "progressive, smart tabloid" [2]. When it comes to Biographies Of Living People, the standards are higher and stricter when the material in question is critical and potentially libelous. SSS108 ^talk-email 16:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying that Salon.co is unreliable. I am just saying that editors should excercise caution when using a tabloid in BLPs. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Jossi, salon.com is widely regarded as a reliable source throughout Wikipedia. Andries 17:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Then there is the very disturbing an hidden bias used by Goldberg in the article. She collaborated with critics and wrote the article with the sole purpose of bringing "much attention to your struggle". Any Google search for "Michelle Goldberg bias" will reveal the relevant results. SSS108 ^talk-email 16:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Andries, please cite references to support your claims that salon.com is used as reliable source on Wikipedia for Biographies Of Living People? SSS108 ^talk-email 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com is for example used as a reference in the article Osama bin Laden. Check here for more Special:Whatlinkshere/Salon.com 20:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com References Been Re-Inserted when I looked. I don't understand what is going on here, or what principle is at stake. There will never be an article on this man and his movement that is acceptably WP:RS for inclusion. All the encyclopedia can do is summarise his claims and provide references (with a few minimal details) of his critics. The Salon.com article may or may not be reliable, but none of us is really competent to decide. The likelihood is that some reference to it should be included. PalestineRemembered 16:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com

Salon.com is undeinably and inarguably a reliable source. Arguing otherwise borders on evidencing bad faith. JBKramer 22:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If that is true JBKramer, then other reliable media sources should have made reference to the same material published on Salon.com (which they generally do). However, this particular article is only available on Salon.com as an internet resource and contains potentially libelous information against SSB. Therefore, it's reliablility is suspect because no other reliable media has made reference to it. SSS108 ^talk-email 22:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com is regularly referenced in other print media. That other print media did not pick up on this story in no way makes it a non-reliable source. JBKramer 22:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider salon.com one of the best available magazines, both online and on paper. Andries 23:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the discussion should be centralized here talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. Andries 23:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Andries, please support your comments that Salon.com publishes a magazine in paper. Where did you get this information from? SSS108 ^talk-email 00:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to say that salon.com is published on paper. Andries 00:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Then what did you mean to say? SSS108 ^talk-email 00:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I meant to say that I consider salon.com one of the best available magazines including both paper and internet magazines. Andries 00:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That is only your opinion, Andries. My opinion, is that Salon.com is a tabloid and when I read it I read it with trhat in mind. Their articles read more as op-eds, or advocacy journalism, and I would be very surprised if they have the editorial control that mainstream newspapers have. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

They do. See Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. Let us leave a message at all articles in which salon.com is used as a reference (or linked to in the external link section) and let us have a centralized discussion here. Andries 00:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The question that no one is addressing here is: "Is Salon.com a reliable source for material that has not been published anywhere else?" ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I had addresse that question and I think the answer is yes. Andries 00:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the question is: Are ALL of Salon.com articles to be considered reliable despite the fact that they refer to themselves as an online tabloid? It is clear that when it comes to critical, negative and potentially libelous information, WP:BLP and WP:RS lay out specific guidelines to determine the reliability of an article. I think it is abundantly clear that this Salon.com article does not fulfill Wikipedia's requirements because: 1) The online article in question has never been referenced by other reputable media; 2) It was written like (and sounds like) a tabloid article and 3) It contains negative, cricital and potentially libelous information (which would require multiple sources to establish its reliability). Just because Salon.com may generally be considered reliable does not make ALL their tabloid articles reliable. This article, in my opinion, falls into the category of unreliable articles. SSS108 ^talk-email 02:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest strongly that you not remove references to the Salon.com article again without first seeking consensus on this talk page. JBKramer 19:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com (2)

The inclusion of Salon.com has not been resolved by ArbCom, but an opinion was given by Fred Bauder about this issue and he said that Salon.com could be mentioned without mentioning specifics. Reference to Salon.com is in the aricle, but the specifics were removed in accordance with the opinion expressed by Fred Bauder. What further consensus needs to be obtained? SSS108 ^talk-email 19:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not REMOTELY what he said. JBKramer 19:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Specifically "I would not use material regarding any particular allegation." JBKramer 19:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That's right. That is why that material was removed. Reference to Salon.com IS included in the article as per his advice [3]. Are you aware of this fact or are you blindly reverting? SSS108 ^talk-email 19:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JBKramer that SSS108 removal of information sourced to salon.co, i.e. kundalini awakening defense is not in contradiction to Fred Bauder's opinion on the matter who wrote "I would not use material regarding any particular allegation. That relies only on the victim's testimony." By the way the Kundalini defense by devotees can be verified in seconds on the internet, so I do not understand why the sourcing to salon.com is controversial. I had such bizarre rationalizations for some time myself too. Andries 19:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The following sentence is inclued: "A number of allegations were published in an article by the liberal, on-line webzine Salon.com." According to Fred Bauder, the citation of Ram Das can be just as false as the citations to allegations. Neither can be used. Maybe you should seek clarification again. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

How can this be reasonably false? It can be verified in seconds with google. Andries 19:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? That's almost precisely what Fred suggested it say. What's the issue? JoshuaZ 19:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Joshua, It is also about Ram Das Awle's kundalini defense sourced to salon.com that SSS108 repeatedly removes. You can find it with google. ( I do not whether I am allowed to link to it here). Andries 20:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no justification to remove the sentence that reads "According to an article in salon.com in the year 2001, a great part of the Findings contains testimonies of sexual harassment and sexual abuse." There is no justification to remove the stentence that reads "According to the journalist Michelle Goldberg of salon.com the fact that the Baba has high ranking Indian politicians as his supporters and the charity works done by the various organizations associated with the Baba help to explain why he has not been brought into a court of law in India. The Indian consulate website states that crime victims must file charges with the police." These are not allegations of a specific individual sourced only to Salon. Honestly, it is transparently obvious that this is bad faith edit warring. I, however, could care less about this article, and as such, I disengage. May you all get exactly what is coming to you. JBKramer 20:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems to involve more detail than Fred advocated. JoshuaZ 20:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon is a good source for the fact that there are a number of allegations of sexual misconduct. Fred Bauder 20:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred's concern (as expressed here) was obviously that the allegations of some kid who had his penis touched was going to be included in the article sourced to Salon - I agree this would not be acceptable. These are not statements by some kid who got penis touched - they are real investigative and summary work done by a reliable secondary source. One discusses what a BOOK says. The other is about criminal law and Indian politicallegal whatevers.JBKramer 20:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, JoshuaZ. Although Andries is aware of Fred Bauder's comments, he reverted the article, keeping the refences exactly as they were before and is wanting to add more information from the Salon.com article. Just look at his recent edit.

Fred, your statement is obviously ambiguous. The reference to Salon.com is included but Andries wants to include specific information from it. What exactly are you saying? Can specific information be cited from the Salon.com article or not? SSS108 ^talk-email 20:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It depends on where Salon got it. It is a matter of editorial judgement. Is it just he said, or is it more substantial? Fred Bauder 04:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm following this discussion but it doesn't look like anyone is talking about the material in the article except to fight about its reliability as an article or a magazine. What is the problem with the article exactly? Ekantik 02:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer, The Finding's was not a book It was an internet document circulated by ex-devotees that contained mostly anonymous accounts from alleged victims as well as other criminal allegations that have never been taken to any court of law at any time past or present. SSS108 ^talk-email 20:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

So? Salon.com, an unquestionably reliable source, summarized it. JBKramer 20:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer, no one has ruled that Salon.com is "unquestionably" a reliable source. That is your opinion and others disagree about it. Especially when Salon.com is a fine example of advocacy journalism, which Wikipedia frowns upon. SSS108 ^talk-email 20:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing more for me to discuss with you at this point. If you play revert games on the article, I will respond in kind. If you gain consensus from other editors on the article, I will abide by it. JBKramer 20:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer, there are editors both for and against the inclusion of this article. No one has reached concensus and the only Arbitrator who was willing to respond gave his opinion. I asked him for further clarification. The consensus you demand has not been responded to by ArbCom and it appears they are not going to respond to it. So Fred's comments are all we can go on for now. SSS108 ^talk-email 20:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The kundalini defense by Ram Das Awle is not unique and not rare and hence should be re-inserted. It was also voiced by Wim van Dijk in the offical Dutch magazine for members of the Sathya Sai Organization. Andries 20:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I.e. in the article by W. van Dijk “Onderscheidingsvermogen is nu heel belangrijk”, in Op de hoogte nr 3, oktober 2000, pp. 7-8. (plagiarized from Nagel). Andries 21:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The majority of editors involved in this discussion have opined that Salon is a reliable source for this article. This is important. Ekantik 02:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism is not allowed on Wikipedia. Andries even claimed that he got his ideas and inspiration from non-reliable sources and plagiarized them [4]. What more can I say?

SSS108, To answer your question, you could give context for what I wrote there. See user:Andries/Wikipedia:plagiarism. I admit that I have plagiarized Steel's and Nagel's writings for this article. Andries 18:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, I think ArbCom needs to rule on this. There is simply no way that a self-admitted liberal, opinionated, tabloid-like webzine is an indisputably reliable source for Wikipedia. Even more the case when it publishes stand-alone articles. People keep saying that Salon.com is generally considered reliable. However, no one says according to whom and by what policy. Especially when a majority of what Salon.com writes would qualify as advocacy journalism. SSS108 ^talk-email 02:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't need ArbCom rulings for every little thing because ArbCom is a last-resort dispute resolution process and should be reserved for issues of ultimacy. Through this whole discussion the topics have flitted between the reliability of Salon itself and the reliability of Michelle Goldberg's article in Salon. The majority of editors who've been involved in this discussion agree that Goldberg's article is a reliable source for this Wikipedia article. Please maintain focus. Ekantik 14:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, from the discussion had, editors were arguing more about Salon.com's overall reliability than Goldberg's article. Neither they or you have made a convincing argument about Salon.com's reliability as it pertains to BLP. SSS108 ^talk-email 15:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Fred for your further comment. Like I said I'm following this discussion but it doesn't look like anyone is talking about the material in the article except to fight about its reliability as an article or a magazine, no one has explained the exact problem with the article. Ekantik 07:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

SSS108 Please stop removing well-sourced relevant info

Journalist Sacha Kester wrote in de Volkskrant 7 Jan, 2003

"the sorrow of those who after years of devotion saw through his deception is indescribable. The jewels and watches that he materializes are hidden in his chair. Followers who make large donation are given preferential treatment. He advises ill people not to take their medicine. He invites good looking young boys for a private interview to grope in their underwear and then to invite them to satisfy him orally.""

I made a comment at the BLP notice board about this. [5] Andries 19:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I already told you that this violates WP:BLP#Writing_style. Stop trying to make this article into an Anti-Sai expose, like you do on your website against Sathya Sai Baba. It is supposed to be an encylopedic article. SSS108 ^talk-email 07:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

We are only following what the sources say. Please stop removing well-sourced information that is relevant to the person's notability. I will revert. Andries 11:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What she said has been documented in a neutral, understated, factual way as per WP:BLP#Writing_style. Stop trying to push your Anti-Sai Agenda on this page. SSS108 ^talk-email 16:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the article in question is not even about Sathya Sai Baba. It is about Indian Gurus and only one small paragraph mentioned SSB (half being the quote attributed to Kester). It did not provide pro/con POVs or anything else for that matter. SSS108 ^talk-email 18:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SSB is India's most prominent guru, so of course an article about spiritual seekers looking for a guru should treat SSB. I see nothing wrong with using a concise summary from a reputable newspaper article for this article. In addition, the writer made several allusions to SSB outside of the paragraph. Andries 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I filed a request for comments. [6]. Andries 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Some questions that may help:

1. Does the journalist explain where did he get his information from?
2. Is he describing his opinion, or the opinion of others?
3. What type of article was this, an op-ed, a column?

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

1. If I remember it well, she read the website, but she was not very clear about it.
2. his her opinion
3. not an oped nor a column. It was a lenghty article about spiritual seekers who go to India to find a guru and how this can go terribly wrong.

Andries 20:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Sacha Kester was the correspondent of de Volkskrant in India, I just found out. Andries 20:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Which website did she read? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

She quoted Hans de Kraker's story from what she wrote was a website of former followers. Andries 21:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)amended 21:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Sory, but I do not follow. You said that she is expressing her opinion. Was she? Who is Hans de Kraker, then? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is a longer excerpt for clarity

Ticket naar Nirvana”/”Ticket to Nirvana”, in the Dutch Newspaper De Volkskrant 7 January 2003

“Those are according to most Indians real holy men. Lonely souls who retire in the Himalaya, or who wander with their shabby possessions and live from the alms given to them by believers. They do not perform trick, like materializing ash out of nothing, and they are not looking for followers who can pay a lot of money to reach nirvana.

Not only hippies travel to India. Nurses, bank clerks, managers, and house wives: everybody who is looking for spiritual food, who has not managed to process the loss of the church or who has devoured books like the The Celestine Prophecy, everybody can buy a ticket to India.

(..)

But where to start among the many holy men? There are naked men who stand near a temple and whisper a mantra into your wear if you give them a coin. And there are celebrities who travel through the whole world and have a small office in every big city.

But here too, answers are difficult to get. “You westerners always get it wrong”, Suranya Chakraverti says. “Either you ridicule a real guru and say that it is all hogwash or you do believe in spirituality and then choose for a swindler”

A good example of the last category is Sai Baba: the man with the hair cut that would have made the Jackson Five jealous. He has million of followers who believe that he is god himself and the sorrow of those who after years of devotion saw through his deception is indescribable. The jewels and watches that he materializes are hidden in his chair. Followers who make large donation are given preferential treatment. He advises ill people not to take their medicine. He invites good looking young boys for a private interview to grope in their underwear and then to invite them to satisfy him orally. ’Devastation. Devastation’, writes Hans de Kraker on a website where former follower have published their to stories as warning to others. ‘The facts, the truth, that for which we all travelled to India, is calling us now. The truth is calling for help’

Thus finding a guru is a precarious matter. In the book Karma Cola a German economist tells author Gita Mehta, “It is my opinion that quality control has to be introduced for gurus. Many of my friends have become crazy in India.” “

Andries 21:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Andries. By the look of it she took what she read on the former follower's website and reproduced it verbatim. Otherwise, as she does not describe where she got that info, we can only assume that is her opinion. How reliable that opinion is? Not for me to judge, but I would argue that there is something about the BLP writing style, that should be taken into consideration. Maybe summarizing her opinion and adding the necessary context, such info about the allegations she found in a former follower's website, and some information about what the the article was about. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

OTOH, quotes do not violate Wikipedia policy as I understand it. There is no harm against the inclusion of quotes and using WP:BLP#Writing_style is superficial. Ekantik 13:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The writing style for WP:BLP is different than other articles, Ekantik. The quote in question is not any ordinary quote. It is an opinionated quote from a wholly critical article against SSB. Therefore, its inclusion should follow WP:BLP#Writing_style. You might dismiss the policy, I don't. SSS108 ^talk-email 04:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

BLP or no BLP, there are plenty of BLP article sout there with opinionated quotes. They cannot and should not be dismissed out of hand. Opinionated is POV and judging by Andries extract its more of a general article on SSB than a specific attack. Ekantik 05:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, I do not consider Kester's quote an opininionated one because the evidence against SSB is so big. Andries 16:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

We should obtain consensus. SSS108 ^talk-email 05:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, As if you ever waited for consensus to implement your favorite changes. If you consider concensus so important then shall we revert back to versions before your broke concensus? Andries 16:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, the record clearly shows that you rarely waited for consensus. You have often filed requests for comments and then revereted the article before any comment was made. The archives show my numerous comments pointing this out. I have observed the consensus regarding Salon.com. SSS108 ^talk-email 21:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus should be gained on the talk page of WP:BLP, not here. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and policy must be followed. Seek consensus on the policy page. Consensus was not gained on the Salon issue and that is still pending. Ekantik 01:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries I also do not consider Kester's quote to be opinionated. It should be allowed and I think removal of it was on superficial reasons. Ekantik 01:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Kester formulated an opinion based on an unnamed Anti-Sai website she read. She did not personally hear stories or obtain first-hand testimonies. Therefore it is her unsourced and personal opinion. Do show us, Ekantik, where Kester said she personally obtained that information, was directly told that information or that she researched it first-hand for herself? She never said any of that. She only made reference to what she read on some unnamed website. SSS108 ^talk-email 04:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, following your way of reasoning shall we then remove all opinions voiced by SSB apologists who do not write explicitly that they have spoken to men and boys who said that they were sexually abused by SSB? Andries 08:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. This type of discussion would shut down immediately on other disputed articles, example Judaism. Please refrain from pointless and argumentative reasoning that does not help this article or the Wikipedia project. It matters not if Kester's quote is opinionated, it is published in reputable media and can be included in the Opposition section of this article. Period. Ekantik 15:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, to the contrary one can argue that you are using Wikipedia as a soapbox. After all, you are the trying to make the argument that what Kester wrote was not an opinion. If you cannot logically defend your position, don't blame me.

Andries, please stop attempting to pigeon-hole my comments. The only reason you want that poorly supported quote in the article is to push your POV, which violates (in my opinion) WP:BLP#Writing_style. Andries, also show me where quotes (like the one's you are attempting to use with Kester) are included in the article in association with SSB apologists? SSS108 ^talk-email 17:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the problem with Kester's quote? That it is explicitly states that he invites young men for oral sex? We could reword that sentence a bit. But your selective summary of the quote omits relevant well-sourced cinformation (such as hiding objects in his chair). So I see your reverts to your selective summary of the quote as POV pushing, not as an attempt to maintain BLP writing style. Andries 17:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this rewording

The journalist Sacha Kester wrote in 2003 an article in the Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant about spiritual seekers who go to India to find a guru. In that article Kester wrote that SSB is a good example of a guru who is a swindler. Kester further wrote in the article that "the sorrow of those who after years of devotion saw through his deception is indescribable. The jewels and watches that he materializes are hidden in his chair. Followers who make large donation are given preferential treatment. He advises ill people not to take their medicine." She further wrote that he "invites good looking young boys for a private interview" and then explicitly described SSB's sexual habits with these boys. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andries (talk • contribs) 17:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Andries, you are going from bad to worse. Her views are to be summarized just like everyone else's. You are POV pushing, as usual. SSS108 ^talk-email 21:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not object to a summary of Kester's quote if that summary is accurate and does not omit information. Until now you have not made such a summary. Andries 21:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I just did although it still needs to be reworded to divulge the bias in that the segment about Sathya Sai Baba was wholly critical about him. SSS108 ^talk-email 21:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree with your edits Andries. It still violates writing style for BLP. You are not summarizing. You are taking everything she said and putting in there anyway. So I am going to work on a neutral and understated summary. SSS108 ^talk-email 23:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

A lot of information is contained in a few sentences, so shortening without omitting information is very difficult. That was one of the reasons why I preferred to quote Kester instead of summarizing. Andries 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, you are pushing your Anti-Sai POV. It can be summarized quite well and easily. You just refuse to do it because it undermines your Anti-Sai stance. SSS108 ^talk-email 23:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have reworded that particular paragraph. It was very badly written (like most of the entire article) and removed POV references. Ekantik 01:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, wikipedia reveals all forms of bias. If an article is wholly critical on a person, not mentioning this fact is POV. The fact remains that Kester's article contained nothing even remotely resembling fair and balanced. This bias need to be divulged and it is not POV to make this statement of fact. SSS108 ^talk-email 03:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Andries providing the extract above the article does not appear to be wholly critical of SSB, this is your opinion. My edits were made on the basis that your grammar was very bad. Please stop reverting people's edits before proper discussion. Ekantik 18:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that it takes two to tango. May you consider that you are doing the same with reverting other people's edits? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I also made other gramamtical edits that were also reverted. Do not revert wholesale but re-edit the points under dispute. Ekantik 18:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, do show me what Kester about SSB that is not critical? The section pertaining to SSB is wholly critical and she mocked his hair, etc. Something a neutral and non-biased journalist would not do. If you want to correct my grammar, you should do so by divulging the fact that Kester's article is wholly critical on SSB. To withhold this information is pushing an Anti-Sai POV. Discuss your edits on the talk page or expect your POV edits to be reverted. SSS108 ^talk-email 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, am I not making my point clear enough? The whole article suffers from bad grammar which I intend to cleanup. The disputed section of Kester's quote is also suffering from bad grammar. I have not removed anything that refers to Kester's opinion, but have simply corrected the grammar. SSS108 is reverting my edits which have corrected the bad grammar and also removed POV references to the article being "wholly critical" when Andries extract above shows nothing like that. If it takes two to tango, then take into consideration that I have discussed all my edits before making any changes while others have not done so.

SSS108 I repeat, please stop reverting this article before' discussing them on this talk page. Kester's opinion has been correctly noted by my edit so please stop inserting your POV into the section. And please stop removing cosmetic edits related to bad grammar. Ekantik 19:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

According to ArbCom, SSS108 is an advocate of SSB and is POV by default. Please stop accusing me of having a POV. Ekantik 19:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Your edits prove you are POV pushing. Your complaints and attempts to get Freelanceresearcher banned also points to that end. The material you seek to exclude or edit deals solely with opposing content. Your actions speak louder than your words. And you should practice what you preach about discussing your edits before reverting the article. I have done exactly as you have done. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Please explain which of my edits count as "POV-pushing". I've already explained that I got involved with this article because of the various RFCs filed and associated talk pages (Salon as a source) and am devoted to NPOV. I have better things to do than be accused of having a POV by editors who have a POV by default. If editors here have a problem with edits made by invited ad uninvolved editors then stop filing RFCs. If users here disrupt the article or the talk pages in any way I will have no hesitation in filing a complaint. Ekantik 16:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind that talk pages are meant to discuss the subjects of the article, not to evaluate each other's editing abilities. The example cited from Talk:Judaism is a pointer for how elongated argumentation should be shut down and nipped in the bud. Ekantik 16:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Section Sizes

The Opposition and Controversies section is way too shorter than the earlier sections and should be expanded with more information. Because this article is already oversized then some of the other sections will have to be shortened. Why are there so many references, wasn't it agreed to shorten the number of references? Ekantik 05:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, what do you mean we should expand the controversies section? That section is already disproportionately long. It should be summarized, if anything. SSS108 ^talk-email 05:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The references were cleaned up long ago by Pjacobi. SSS108 ^talk-email 05:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It is still too long. References are only needed for facts that may be disputed or where particular sentences warrant expansion. References for every little information is unnecessary. Ekantik 01:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, this is not the generally accepted practice in Wikipedia. See also the recent peer review on SSB. Andries 09:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, instead of making general comments, perhaps you can give examples of references that need to be excluded. On the peer review, it was stated that more references were needed. The fact remains that if many of the points are not referenced now, they will be disputed in the future. Which references do you think are unnecessary? SSS108 ^talk-email 03:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

OK the Peer Review is a little long, I will go through it later. However I still think that many sections are too long making the article oversized. We may need to think about splitting into several different articles as advised by the message at the top of the page whenever it is edited. Ekantik 15:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

60KB, of which a large portion are footnotes, is not a long article. Also note that a few months ago many sub articles where merged back into this article due to duplication of material and redundancy. You may want to look back in the history and read the archives. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but no thanks. What I have read of the archives show that the wrangling disputes continue even today. I only got involved with this article because of its appearance at ArbCom and the talk page about Salon being a reputable source. SSS108 and Andries were forgiven of all offences by the ArbCom decision and I would prefer to work with the article as it is now.

Thanks for saying that a 60kb is not long, this was my original point that the Opposition section should be expanded with more information as the treatment so far has been sparing. Ekantik 18:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, the reference of him being born in the Ratnakaram family was an example of information and references that I considered unnecessary. You have already removed that anyway, thanks for excercising good judgement. But now there are seven references to account for his miraculous powers, isn't this over the top? Ekantik 18:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The section that discusses SSB's miraculous powers is summarized to reflect the content taken from 7 references. By removing one of the references, some of the content in the summary is going to be removed. If you insist on pushing this, I will elaborate on the miracles and then reference each instance. The choice is yours. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The seven references are each for different statements in the sentence. One refences for the family name Ratnakaram. Two references for the two different birthdates. One reference for the word miracle worker. Two references for the word "Godman". One reference for the word controversial. So this means that only one reference (for Godman) is redundant and could be removed. Andries 19:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, as long as you follow Ekantik's advice and explain your edits fully, with refs, before making the edit so we can agree on it. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand. What advice of Ekantik should I follow? I am not going to explain Ekantik repeatedly extensively the need for sourcing which is a generally accepted Wikipedia practice. See Wikipedia:cite your source. Andries 19:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik suggested that we discuss our edits before making them. I am more than willing to follow this proposed guideline if we all agree to it. This is not about citing sources, it is about removing reference material. If you want to remove reference material, please explain why you are going to remove it and cite the reference so we can agree on it first. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries I see, good idea.. But it still makes the lead paragraph look a bit untidy. Wouldn't it be better to expand on those statements (keeping the references) later in the article (excluding Ratnakaram reference)?

SSS108, I was following the guideline given by the neutrality-disputed tag in the Opposition section. Bold edits can be made as long as there is adequate referencing but there is little call for explaining every single edit. Ekantik 16:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

UNESCO Removal

I have removed the sentence about the UNESCO statement being removed from their site. This gives the impression that the removal confirms or implies that they have retracted their views on SSB, which they haven't. Unless UNESCO release a statement that confirms this then this shouldn't remain in the article. Agreement? Ekantik 18:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, readers should be informed that UNESCO removed that media article. Not including this statement gives the impression that it is still on their site. It isn't. It is a factual comment. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ekantik, you are also wrong that UNESCO has not retracted their views on Sathya Sai Baba. Just ask Andries (former webmaster and current "Main Representative, Supervisor and Contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Site on the internet). Anti-Sai Activists, ex-devotees and critics (who formerly praised Unesco for the withdrawal that they boasted on accomplishing through an "e-boming" campaign) are now attacking Unesco for removing the release on their site. SSS108 ^talk-email 19:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a battleground. Please take the time to study WP:NOT. It was a press release and not a media article, UNESCO have not retracted their views on SSB. Until they do, including a reference to its removal gives readers the false impression that they have retracted their views. Discuss? Ekantik 16:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)