Talk:Judaism

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Former good articleJudaism was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 13, 2006Good article nomineeListed
April 22, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
July 11, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

See also[edit]

Babylonian Defectors

People running from Satanic Cults trying to prevent the Messiah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9460:5A40:54FC:145D:7A12:4DA2 (talk) 09:24, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Judaism on Education[edit]

Could we include the role of Jewish organizations in Judaism? Orthodox Union, Aish HaTorah, Chabad and Rohr JLI?

"Find sources"in text box?[edit]

At the beginning of this talk page, there's a text box that says "Find sources." I'd like to help, but what where do I start? Sources for what, exactly? This is a long article, and there are already nearly 170 citations. BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 11:32, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Those are links which can be helpful if you're looking for a source to support some piece of information that you wish to add to the article. It's not saying that the article is under-referenced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 12:32, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there a problem with the numbers in the various sects?[edit]

This article indicates that there are about 14.3 million Jews, a number that seems to be widely reported.

The article on Orthodox Judaism claims there are 2 million members plus 2 million others, the article on Conservative Judaism indicates 1.1 million members, and the article on Reform Judaism indicates 1.8 million.

2 + 2 + 1.1 + 1.8 is only 6.9 million. It appears to be short by a factor of 2. TundraGreen (talk) 14:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm assuming that the figures all come from different sources. The total number of Jews might include any ethnic Jews worldwide who do not explicitly identify as belonging to a different religion (or perhaps even including some persons who identify as "Jewish and..."), while the figures for each sect might only include people in countries with significant Jewish populations who specifically identify as belonging to that sect (and not those who just happen to go to an Orthodox or Reform synagogue but identify as simply Jewish). Ian.thomson (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Adding to/repeating Ian's wise comments... The gap is 'atheist Jews', 'agnostic Jews' and Jews who wouldn't want to label themselves or would call themselves "non practicing" or many other titles. Even among practising, you miss out some categories: there are Jews to the left of Reform, like Liberal Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Concerns with lead's definition of Judaism[edit]

The lead defines Judaism as the religion of the Jewish people but if you follow the fact is the jew and jewish person includes secular ethnic jews, ethnic jews who have converted or joined other religions such as Christianity, and messianic jews which combine Christianity with judaism and for which much debate exists as to whether they are truly judas or not. As such, not all "jewish people" would consider judaism as their religion. Also, there is the issue of converts to judaism. While some of the might consider the conversion to as granting membership in the group known as "jewish people", others do not consider themselves at such and consider themselves non-ethnic judaists. The lead section also mention "Jews are an ethnoreligious group" but again, not all Jews (especially secular ethnic jews) would not identify as ethnoreligious, as they do not see judaism as the tie that binds them. While it's true that many of the secular aspects of Jewish culture that secular jews identify with can probably trace their roots back to a time before the concepts of Jewish ethnicity and secular jew existed and as such have a judaist religious connection to some degree. So it's seem fair to say that most Judaism followers are jews who where born into the religion and who also identify as jews ethnically (as apposed to converts who may or may not also see themselves as jews ethnically). But I would be so quick to say that all people who call themselves jews consider judaism to be their religion as implied in the lead. Defining it as "The region of The Jewish People" sounds too much like "The religion of All Jewish People". Maybe saying "Judaism is the traditional religion of the Jewish People" sounds a little better to me since it allows for the possibility of ethnic Jews who no longer follow this tradition or identify as judaist in any way such as secular jews or jews that converted top other religions but who still identify as being part of the group "jewish People". --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 19:43, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with the problem you have with the lead. First of all, with regards to the use of 'ethnoreligious:' the lead does not say exclusively ethnoreligious, which leaves the room for converts from other ethnic backgrounds. Secondly, "Messianic Jews" are Christians and there's no reason to cater to their distinct religious beliefs in the lead. Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, regardless of whether a particular Jew practises it or not. In much the same way that one might say French is the language of France even though a proportion of the population may not speak French. Personally, I don't regard converts away from Judaism to other religions as still being Jews (nor do I regard "Messianic Jews" as Jews), although I accept that they don't need to go through conversion if they wish to return to Judaism, provided they are otherwise Jewish. Judaism is the glue that has bound the Jewish people for millennia, and to relegate it to a religion amongst others of the Jews is intellectually dishonest. Île flottante (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Saying that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people is a truism, like saying Germany is the homeland of the German people. If the article intended to say that Judaism was the religion of all Jewish people, surely in the past 17 years some editor or another would have made that change and that language would have been retained. I think most readers understand the difference between the two sentences. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 20:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
I second MShabazz and Île flottante's respective remarks. There is no implied rejection or exclusion of converts in saying Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people; while conversion rates have risen in the last half century, for the majority of the Jewish people's and Judaism's existence(s), Jews have been endogamous and conversion either into or out of Judaism was rare. The article itself also makes it quite clear that conversion to Judaism is possible. Further, the ethnic component of Jewish identity is of primary importance to many Jews, and eliding Jews' status as an ethnoreligious group is inappropriate. Suggesting that Messianic "Jews" be included is entirely inappropriate. Lastly, I'm not sure what a "Judaist" is, but it's not a term that Jews use for ourselves. newmila (talk) 17:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Reference refurbishing[edit]

I dropped on this page by Citation Hunt and was originally only going to add some missing citations.
By doing that I noticed that the citation method here is quite cumbersome and hard to navigate through. It was showing in the references themselves as there were already duplicates of the same citation under different <ref name="name"> tag. I know that this citation method was great in the beginnings of this page, but now with the visual editor it is completely out of date. It is not compatible with the visual editor, which is an easier way to add new data to the existing entries. Many people may want to add info to an entry (i.e. an ISBN number to a book or a DOI number to a publication) that they know, but will be discouraged to do so by the need of switching multiple times between visual and code editors. The same was with me. I added two missing citations in place of a "citation needed" tag. I used the visual editor's auto-reference utility and had to only add an URL of a website and everything was done automatically. One check of added data and it is done. I never ever thought about adding it the way it was already done and many others will do as I did. This may lead to a multitude of citation methods in one page.

Then, what is my purpose of writing all of that? I thought that I could refurbish all of those citations to the new format that is compatible with the visual editor. At the same time I would check for any new data for the existing citations, find archives for those that need it and get rid of duplicates. I would also consolidate those references that are not completely duplicates but are citations from the same work, just the pages are different. There is a shorter form of doing that. For example a text using 2 references from the same book and one from another would look like this:

  • Sample text says that one[1]:23 and two[1]:56 exist, yet other texts state differently[2]

This can be done by a simple {{rp|page_number}} template and the result is a clear and nice citation list.
Before I would start refurbishing the citations I would like to know the opinion of other people contributing to this page about my plans.

--Light Code (talk) 13:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)