Talk:Vushtrri

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. As several editors have said, this is probably a case for a wider discussion. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

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Vučitrn → Vushtrri – move from Serbian name to Albanian name used by local population, following the increase in use of Albanian names in English WP:Reliable sources since the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. [Initial reason: 17:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)] --Tëfcí (talk) 12:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose This is actually false request reason, as en reliable sources are by far more toward Vučitrn then Vushtrri. Oppose anyway, per obvious and massive COMMONNAME toward Vučitrn. --WhiteWriter^speaks 21:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Opposed per WP:COMMONNAME. Proposed move has no grounds. Perunova straža (talk) 22:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposal does not state a valid reason for a move. I have no expertise and no opinion about what the "correct" name is, if such a thing even exists. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 13:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - whether to allow local-language names for Kosovo's towns is bigger than a single RM. RM is also potentially problematic because the Alerts attract editors from WP Serbia and WP Albania - which is okay in itself because neither speakers of Serbian (inc myself) nor Albanian speakers may be 100% neutral, and on en.wp the former massively outnumber the latter. The cities box at article bottom shows almost all (all?) names at Serbian spellings, so it would need a large RfC with the participation of totally uninvolved editors (e.g. from WP Knitting or WP Insects) to decide whether to rename from Serbian Vučitrn to Kosovan-Albanian Vushtrri etc. In this case Vushtrri is, naturally, used by NATO pdf but in fact the name the majority of the local people use has also has overtaken the Serbian name as WP:COMMONNAME in printed English books since 2005: 365 352. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

If you exclude wikipedia publications the result would be in favor of Vučitrn.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, you are correct, but not strongly. from 2009 Vučitrn -wikipedia -llc = 72 results Vushtrri -wikipedia -llc = 68 results. What's more of an issue, which I didn't realise is that Vučitrn massacre is being picked up. So removing -massacre 66 to 65, the Albanian name is slighltly ahead. Ahead the trend is turning. 2011-2012 there were 7 hits for Vushtrri and only 4 hits for Vučitrn. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

No. Both Post 2009 and 2011 English language GBS are in favor of Vučitrn. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support we should use Albanian, not Serbian, for Kosovo. The administration has changed, so the language of the country/region is now Albanian, not Serbian. Same as why we use Polish spelling and not German for many towns that have common names that come from German not Polish. If we don't move to Albanian, then I don't see why we should have moved those Polish names, or any other name, from the more common English forms. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support, per WP:COMMONNAME; I would agree with In ictu oculi's suggestion of an RFC since there are likely to be several other articles on settlements in Kosovo which have the same problem. bobrayner (talk) 13:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, commonname is argument for Vučitrn, you obviously made an accidental mistake... --WhiteWriter^speaks 20:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

• Opposed per WP:COMMONNAME, which is not what "majority of the local people use" or what is "used by NATO". I wanted to say that maybe English language sources would adopt Albanian transliteration in future but taking in consideration that even post 2011 English language books use Albanian transliteration much less frequently then existing English language common name I am uncertain if it will ever happen. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Opposed per WP:COMMONNAME, far more sources mention Vučitrn than "Vushtrri" (an Albanianized version of a Serbian name) 23 editor (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Avoid diacritics when possible. If that means we use a different language's name for it, so be it. Support. Red Slash 05:01, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I must say that agument is bulls..t. COMMONNAME should be used, and not easy writing version of that common name. --WhiteWriter^speaks 20:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't have a position here, but "Avoid diacritics when possible" has no basis whatsoever in Wikipedia naming conventions. --BDD (talk) 23:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Next step, non-involved editor RfC

• Looks like what was predicted above about the inevitable demographic weighting of en.wp editordom (no offence, I'm on the Serbo-Croatian side of the linguistic fence here myself) has come true - but note that no-stake editors have favoured going with the upsurge in 2011-2013 sources catching up with 2008 independence declaration. We now need to have a RfC where truly uninvolved 3rd party editors take a detached overview. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:23, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

  I dislike herding voters based on their votes but this analysis strikes me as partial, or at least incomplete. One IP editor voted in favor of proposal with a comment that since the administration in Kosovo changed then the language also changed and by this disregarding the fact that based on the article, Republic of Kosovo has two official languages: Albanian and Serbian, so Serbian (Serbo-Croatian) can also be used as an official language. The second pro proposal vote came from an editor who was lately advocating Albanian language variants in piped links and was told by an admin among other things that Admins are unfortunately familiar with wars over place names, and hopefully the problem can be resolved locally instead of being chewed over at WP:AE. The third pro vote was given with an explanation that diacritics should be avoided even if that means using a different language's name which (the explanation) was refuted by AFAICT a no-stake editor with "Avoid diacritics when possible" has no basis whatsoever in Wikipedia naming conventions.. Also, one IP editor (the address belonging to the Georgia Public Library System) voted against the proposal. I don't know if this editor should be deemed as one having-a-stake editor. Therefore I don't trust the observation that no-stake editors favored the article's name change, nor do I support any conclusions coming from this observation. --biblbroks (talk) 21:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Biblbroks, with respect you, like me, stand on one side of the Kosovo linguistic fence. I stand by the observsation that no stake editors favoured the article's name change. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

In ictu oculi, with the same respect, you then consider the other IP that disfavored article's name change as having a stake in this matter? How so? --biblbroks (talk) 19:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that was just random passing traffic. Anyway, see explanation on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Kosovo-related articles In ictu oculi (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why disregarding random passing traffic? At the aforementioned page there was a repeated mention of "WikiProject Knitting" who might help as uninvolved editors, but when a real passer-by passes by and comments, they are considered random. Should that mean that their comment is also random then, and if so, why? --biblbroks (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Because (A) "I have no expertise and no opinion about what the "correct" name is, if such a thing even exists. 168.12.253.66" wheras (B) the other IP is an active long term editor who regularly contributes to RMs.

Also Project members of any project wouldn't be random. They would be neutral. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

But if you disregard votes based on their rationale, why regard the other IP editor's support vote when basically their rationale was to follow the logic of what the language of the country is and that the administration of Republic of Kosovo changed it while, as already said, the official languages of the country are still both Albanian and Serbian - that is not just one. At least according to the article Republic of Kosovo they are two. Also the argument for another support vote was characterized as bulls..t with an explanation with which yet some other presumably "no-stake", and if so, a neutral-in-this-case editor seemed to have agreed. If we go this way, then we're left with only one support vote coming from a presumably "no-stake" editor. Supposing that the initiator of an action (the nominator of a RfM in-this-case) must have a stake in the action and they aren't acting randomly i.e. mindlessly, and therefore we shouldn't count them in as a no-stake editor.

Anyway, if the invited Project members who are to help as uninvolved editors, if they are not expected to be random, by which criterion should they be selected? And by whom? --biblbroks (talk) 22:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

As I said "(B) the other IP is an active long term editor who regularly contributes to RMs." RfCs are self-selecting, there's a sendout mechanism. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Does this mean that only IPs which are active long term editors and who regularly contribute to RMs are to be considered and that even regardless of their argument? Sendout mechanism: if we are talking about this Wikipedia:Feedback request service, there it says "By signing up in the section of your interest, you may be randomly selected to receive a user talk page invitation to participate in a discussion in that topic area". This suggests the mechanism to be quite random. --biblbroks (talk) 08:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Biased text without the sources

Vučitrn gave a great contribution in the general rebellions of 1910-1912. Hasan Prishtina was the greatest intellectual man of the time, who’s patriotic activity was the key to development of education and economy in the Albanian territories. In 1912, the Serbian army invaded Vučitrn committing big crimes.

--VuXman ^talk 23:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll reword, reference and expand it tonight. IJA (talk) 08:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2020

Vučitrn → Vushtrri – This move is requested in coordination with WP:Common Name and WP:Place#Multiple_local_names.

Vushtrri is a town and municipality located in the Mitrovica District in northern Kosovo. The population is 90% Albanian. The vast majority of the inhabitants call their town Vushtrri, and this is and official name of the town( it is possible that town also has and Serbian name that is, to have two names). Whether you support that this town and article being named as most of its inhabitants call it ie Vushtrri? Mikola22 (talk) 20:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support It is the official name of the town in Albanian, the inhabitants are almost 100% Albanians and I see no reason to use other name for town. Mikola22 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Seriously? No arguments were made regarding the common name, policies, etc. Such a simultaneous campaign of pressure and initiation of RMs (from editors who have never edited those articles) really looks more and more like a nationalist WP:POVPUSH that should be considered at the ANI. A really sad scene of polarization in which the same group of editors gathers and it is always known who will vote for what. Unfortunately, there are always such things on Balkan topics, but that is why we should not open a large number of similar RfCs and RMs at short intervals.--WEBDuB (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe my intention is also because of my Nazi background? Anyway, what else I need to attach, my master's thesis about this issue? I explored some places in Kosovo and came to Vushtrri. How can an article have a name that people in that place don't know? Kosovo is an independent state, I guess we should use the names of the towns used in that state. Mikola22 (talk) 21:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Why? You have given us no real arguments. Serbs do not make the majority in Subotica but the city name is still in Serbian and there is a dozen of similar examples in Europe. Nationalistic POV pushing is not something which should be greeted with open arms on Wiki. 21:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Where in the article writes about history of the place name and history of that place but with reliable sources as evidence? In fact, nothing is written in the article(history section) and I can't know more than that. I just know what I’ve exposed and I think that’s enough. Therefore do not falsely accuse editors because you have already been warned about it. Mikola22 (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support Unlike in other cases of places in Kosovo, in this case GoogleBooks give a very clear picture. Vushtrri is more widely used. Especially after 2008 the picture become very clear. In addition to that, given that this is a small settlement, most people are likely to search info on it due to being its citizens who live in English-speaking countries (they are almost all Albanians) or due to being tourists (who tend to seek info in line with names used in official capacity by the country and local people). Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Note to the closing editor As we know, in such cases consensus is determined by the way how arguments stand against Wiki policies, not just by counting !votes. Such Balkan discussions have for years been damaged by canvassing etc. The most recent case: other editors have expressed concerns about canvassing, as lately is every discussion perceived as a "voting process", certain editors on srwiki who rarely edit on enwiki, appear and !vote the same way. Some of them have made blind reverts too here or there without any tp participation etc. Of course this does not mean that editors from srwiki or sqwiki are not welcome to participate here and give their opinion, but in any case the consensus building process should not be held hostage to blind "votes" by any side. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

  And the same work also for certain editors from sq wiki who from time to time invite offwiki other albanian editors in order to use wikipedia as their political propaganda tool. Therefor this attempts of changing commonname of articles into albanian ones with attempts to present those as english. Not going to pass this time... --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 19:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• Strong support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:01, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Per nom. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:29, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as WEBDuB explained, already talked about in 2013 on this page. Peervalaa (talk) 11:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The proposed title appears to be the most common name in English based on Google Ngrams.[1] Rreagan007 (talk) 17:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - Personally, I would support the change. As a largely Albanian-inhabited town, Vushtrri makes more sense. However, I think Mikola22 (talk · contribs) could make a stronger argument. The name need not just be based on the town's ethnic makeup; like is being is discussed at Peć, we could draw up some Google search results here, or look at how the town is referenced in official documents. This would definitely set up a larger discussion, which I don't think is happening here currently. ArbDardh (talk) 17:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh

I don't know what is needed in this procedure. The article does not say anything about the town name and history(with evidence in RS). What we know is that town name is official name. Information from "ICRC, Red Cross and Red Crescent activities in Kosovo" (30-06-2001) : (Soup kitchens Run by the American Red Cross (Mitrovica North and South, Vushtrri/Vuctrin, Pristina), the German Red Cross (Peja/Pec), the Belgian Red Cross (Prizren) and the Netherlands Red Cross (Gjilan/Gnjilane, Kamenica, Viti/na, Ferizaj/Urosevac, Kacanik)).[2] One information from scientific paper (2000): (Before destruction. Market Mosque and Old Market, Vushtrri/Vucitrn. (Constructed in the fifteenth century, restored in the nineteenth century. Photo: Raif Virmic) page 116,[3]

There are probably two official names, but I think it would be correctly to use variant of the name which use majority of local population. As for the other parameters, I wouldn't know specific situation. Maybe editor @Ktrimi991: can help or someone else. Mikola22 (talk) 19:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola22:@ArbDardh: I've seen the discussion, but I didn't have the time to run a proper search. I included "Kosovo" OR "Kosova" in order to also get the results which use the variant "Kosova" (they are excluded in a search of only + "Kosovo"). I used Boolean operators in order to include closely related variants/spellings of the two toponyms. In post-2000 bibliography on google scholar:

"Vushtrri" OR "Vushtrria" + "Kosovo" OR "Kosova" 744

"Vučitrn" OR "Vucitrn" + "Kosovo" OR "Kosova" 554

I support a move to Vushtrri based on use in contemporary bibliography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:55, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Mikola22 (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per WP:Common Name and WP:Place#Multiple_local_names. Since Slavs populated this region in the 6th century the title of this place is Vučitrn and remained Vučitrn until today, for about 1,500 years. Transliteration to the Albanian language resulted in neologism Vushtrri that entered sources about 100 years ago. There is no English name of this place nor there is a particular interest of English language sources for this place. Except when the town came to prominence among today's English-speaking community during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 or in relation to historical medieval period when Vučitrn was a seat of Serb medieval noble family Branković. Because of this, all English language sources refer to this place as Vučitrn almost exclusively. Recent English language publications of Kosovo Government (dominated by Albanians after the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo) and its institutions that use Albanian neologism Vushtrri have not gained wide attention of the English language speaking community nor it has featured major headlines, only minor, and even then there is often a mention of it being called Vučitrn.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per WP:Common Name and comments by Antidiskriminator and WEBDuB. This is old subject, nothing proper changed in the mean time. Since medieval time, this place is named exclusively as Vučitrn and recent publications by Kosovo government will not change commonname over night. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 19:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The results from google scholar are not "recent publications by Kosovo government". Note to the closing admin: this account with very little activity in English wikipedia logged in and basically made the same comment in three different discussions (within 4 minutes) without any regard for actual policies[4]. Wikipedia is not a democracy and !vote comments which blatantly disregard how bibliography perceives use of terms are discouraged.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, results are recent publications by Kosovo government, and that can be listed here as a confirmation. It would be nice not to lie and mislead. I opened account in 2013, unlike most of support editors, including you. Many users cited google hits, from books and search, all of those are google hits. The question of sources are more important then number of hits, as most of the books mentioned are published by either RoK or in Albanian language. So please, stop with false misrepresentation of users whose comments fail your WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Also, stop WP:STAKING other users and their edits, that is rude and false representation. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support per WP:Common Name. This is the official name of the city, and as Maleschreiber demonstrated, it is the most used name in contemporary bibliography. Almost no-one in this town refers to their city as "Vučitrn". N.Hoxha (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Most of the hits for "Vushtrri" are by Albanian authors (i.e. close to the subject) writing in English [5]. On the other hand, most of the hits for "Vucitrn" are from authors from third countries [6]. Khirurg (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
  • This argument doesn't make sense. Most Kosovans are Albanians, isn't your statement intuitive?--Ortizesp (talk) 06:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: Most of the Support users, including the one who opened this request and the one who attacked me just now, opened their account within days and one month to each other, at the end of 2019, during the Wiki Academy Kosovo event. The dates of duration of event lined with our "new neutral users" appearances on Wikipedia. It is obvious that Republic of Kosovo is using new editors again, as we have witnessed several times in the past years they already did, as their national agenda pov pushers and fighters. We already know that they educate new users to use English Wikipedia as pro-Albanian propaganda advocacy tool, and that is strictly forbidden by WP:ARBMAC. Therefor this coordinated list of renaming of established article name with attempt to rename them to Albanian language, that should be presented as new "commonname". And this is happening on at least 4 articles at the moment. Admins should be well aware that those requests are very much disputable, and therefor, consensus reached is actually not consensus, but organised and paid political advocacy. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)